Marriage.
Dan and Jill got married in the Denver temple 8 months after Jill got home from her mission in 2000. Dan went on a mission but came home early for health reasons from which he has since recovered.
Jill immediately started school at BYU upon getting home from her mission. Dan had started college several times after high school, and, most recently, after he came home early from his mission. Each time he lost interest and stopped attending, earning himself rather poor grades, and placed on probation. He had attended two different local colleges but was still about 4 years away from a degree.
Dan worked at a few different places making between $10-15/hour to help support the family. Jill worked as a TA in her discipline to add additional support. Nearing the end of her Bachelor’s degree, Jill had the couple’s first baby. It was late spring, and well timed such that Jill could begin a Master’s degree program after having several months home with the new baby and recovering from delivery. Because of Jill’s ambition for her education it was decided Dan would stay home with their new son.
Jill was successful in her schooling, and Dan seemed happy staying home with their baby. Again, with happy timing, Jill delivered their second baby, a girl, the summer after Jill finished her Master’s degree. Jill had accepted a job at a company in California but delayed her start date to give her time to recover from delivery and prepare for her new job.
In California Jill’s salary gave the family plenty of money such that Dan could continue to stay home with the kids. Things were going well overall, though Jill was becoming antsy in her job. Jill had wanted a PhD for as long as she could remember primarily since her passion was in research. A year after starting her new job, Jill gave birth to their third child, a son.
Cracks began to surface in the marriage. Dan was staying home with three small children and had little contact with people. Dan was also reigniting interest in his own education. While Jill came home and helped with the kids and housework, Dan perceived she did little around the house. Additionally, Jill had begun aggressively applying to various PhD programs around the country.
Subsequently, Dan rekindled a relationship with a childhood friend, Hannah. She became a support for Dan and they texted regularly. This bothered Jill, but Dan insisted they were just friends.
Divorce.
Jill was accepted to a top notch PhD program and the family moved to Massachussetts. Dan agreed to support Jill through her PhD but insisted they return to their hometown in Colorado when Jill was finished. Jill would need to find a research or academic position there.
Jill again hit school hard, studying, learning, and feeling in her element in academia. Despite these demands, Jill came home at regular times each day and did housework and helped care for the kids.
Dan, on the other hand, was growing increasingly dissatisfied, and his relationship with his childhood friend Hannah, was growing. Dan and Hannah were sending thousands of text messages back and forth each month. Dan would sometimes leave the kids with Jill during the school year to go visit Hannah in South Carolina. That year, Dan spent his birthday with Hannah. Dan came back with new clothes and gifts and a claim that Jill wouldn’t buy him things preferring instead to buy things for herself. After one trip to see Hannah, Dan informed Jill he had enrolled in a local college to work on a degree.
Jill was increasingly worried, but her worry was met with denial and an insistence that Hannah was just a friend and was supporting him in supporting Jill. Jill requested the couple see a counselor. They only went to one session after which Dan refused to go to back, declaring it was a waste of time. Dan’s parents had “stayed together for the kids” and he was determined to not make what he viewed as that same mistake.
In January 2010, Dan made it clear he wanted a divorce. Jill insisted he would need to initiate it since she wanted to work it out. But Dan pursued a different path. That summer, Dan took the kids on a vacation to visit Hannah leaving Jill at home. To Jill’s protests, Dan responded with a claim about their impending divorce and she would need to get used to it. Dan began collecting moving boxes, informing neigbors he didn’t know how much longer they would be around, and telling the ward bishop and school administrators that they were moving, but without specifying a date.
This scared Jill. Jill filed for divorce that July in order to ensure there was legal protection for keeping the kids in their current state.
The divorce was ugly. VERY UGLY. During the divorce it was discovered that Dan had a joint checking account with Hannah and that Hannah was paying for Dan’s new school endeavors. Dan had a history with porn and this was the root of many accusations in court documents. Jill, for her part, was exacting on Dan. Dan never seemed to live up to the expectations Jill placed on him. She was critical of him, and, in his eyes, never supported him in getting his own education, or making friends, or pursuing hobbies. He had no friends, no job, no education, and was sinking into a depression.
9 months later, in Winter of 2010 Dan and Jill were divorced after 10 years of marriage. In the settlement:
- Both parties would remain in Massachussetts until they both graduated.
- Jill would pay for Dan’s undergraduate education (3 years left) so that Dan could get a good job to help support the children.
- Jill’s 401(K) from her job in California would be liquified and used to pay for Dan’s lawyer (Jill had a pro bono lawyer from the school she was attending).
- Jill and Dan would have joint legal custody of their children then aged 7, 5, and 4.
- Jill and Dan would have 50/50 parenting time with the children.
- Jill would pay child support according to the state formula based on her income as a TA. Dan had no income.
- Jill was required to pay non-modifiable spousal support at $250/month for the next 4 years.
- As long as either party was in school full-time or working full-time no income would be imputed to them.
- Upon graduation of both Dan and Jill from their Bachelor’s and Doctorate program respectively (Jill had 2 years left), both parties would move back to Colorado with the kids and continue the parenting time agreement.
2 months after the divorce Hannah moved in with Dan in his new apartment. 1 year later Dan requested Clearance to be sealed to Hannah. The clearance was granted and shortly after Dan and Hannah were married in the Denver temple.
Wheat & Tares 
I feel ill after reading this story. So, so sad.
Hard to see why this couple married. Wonder if it was pressure to get married as quickly as possible after the mission. There appeared to be no attention given to the deep differences in personal dreams or goals.
How did Dan get a sealing cancellation? They only cancel for women getting remarried in the temple. For men, they grant clearance, while making them continue to be sealed the first woman. Even if the first woman requests the cancelation.
Also, what a sad story.
I can remember a health class in college that listed 10 issues to discuss before marriage. Among them were job/career, family income, children, living location, social life, and religion (if mixed).
We were married by an RLDS minister (my oldest brother) We met with him at least once for counseling and covered several of these subjects. The only disagreement was my fiance didn’t see anything objectionable to continue friendships with 4 past boyfriends and I did; commenting on how I might feel finding letters from them in the mailbox. Her divorced mother had suggested she set up a separate banking account and I thought that was a bad notion to begin a marriage on.
So I wonder how much counseling takes place for a couple before an LDS-authorized marriage? Does a Temple Marriage couple meet with the Temple President longer than a few minutes before the ceremony?
Ironing out potential problems in advance is far better IMO.
Thanks Tracy for catching that mistake. I fixed it. It was supposed to be clearance not cancellation.
Markag,
There is not marriage counseling at all from anyone prior to an LDS marriage, in or out of the temple.
Stuff like this kills me, because it happens. I’ve even seen it happen where the wife did everything “right” (was the dutiful SAHM, etc.) and hubby still got tired of it, left, and was sealed to #2 within a couple of months.
I look forward to Part 2, where Jill hires a decent lawyer, gets full custody, and becomes a Supreme Court justice – but I suspect I’ll be waiting awhile.
I work for divorce attorneys so I’m pretty much unmoved. This is reality (although I’m guessing if this narrative is true then at the very least names have been changed). It is unusual that the woman is the provider and the man stays at home (in and LDS context – I work in California so not as unusual here.), but not unheard of. The settlement seems fair to me.
Two things seem rather awful though. First, Dan’s girlfriend moves in with him 2 months after the divorce and they get clearing to be sealed a year later…? At the very least he was fornicating (requiring church discipline). It seems likely the sexual relationship with the girlfriend predates the divorce though (if she was supporting him financially…) and that is adultery for which he should need to work through an excommunication and repentance process. You didn’t say much about the girlfriend. But I’d think if she knowingly got involved with a married man who she then lived without outside of marriage then she also would like need to go through and excommunication/repentance (if she is endowed especially). Of course, maybe that all happened and it just didn’t get mentioned in the story. And maybe I have such a low view of adultery (even emotional) that I’m bothered by him getting reward for it.
I also wonder if having kids involved means the church expedites the whole repentance thing to get Dan and girlfriend into a traditional LDS relationship as quick as possible.
The other thing that really bothers me is that there is no mention of Jill giving permission for Dan to get sealed. I have no idea of the church policy on this, but Jill just got herself stuck as an eternal polygamous wife. As did the girlfriend (now second wife), but she had a choice in the matter and Jill apparently did not.
This is not really an LDS story as much as it is a common marriage story of today. The key word here to me is equality. Not gender equality, but marriage equality. both people should come into the marriage as equals, not as one dominant over the other. Even though that might have been the norm in the past. She clearly was more ambitious than he. He seems like a slacker to me. He only agreed to stay home with the kids to continue his slackerhood. Getting involved with the other women was wrong, breaches any nominal marriage vows, let alone a temple marriage and has no excuse.
She is at fault for continuing to: a) put up with it at all and, b) cranking out more kids with him.
though, it sounds like there is more to the story regarding the personal dynamics between Dan and Jill that is left untold here.
I find it a bit odd Dan spent a birthday visiting Hannah and getting gifts while married and that Jill approved of that. So…some flags along the way didn’t get addressed until it was too late, it seems.
So…it kinda seems to me that some couples find differences they didn’t know about until trying at marriage and finding how different their hopes and dreams are…and if they grow apart for 10 years and can’t fix them…then at some point they are so far apart it is quite a mountain to climb to fix it, and sometimes they aren’t really wanting to climb that mountain. Couples should be working on hopes and dreams together or talking about differences as they go…not letting them pile up for too long.
Here is the other element: Hannah must not see Dan as a slacker. Maybe they are happy together.
So…what if the end of the story is something like this:
1. Dan and Hannah get sealed in the temple. Dan feels supported. Hannah is happy. The children are raised 50% of the time in a happy home with their dad and step-mom.
2. Jill pursues her degree and finds someone who is an intellectual at the university, or high profile extrovert with social life and money and things that are in line with her hopes and dreams, she finds a partner that supports her and is equal to her in ways she desires and feels happy. The kids are raised 50% of the time in a happy home with their mom and step-dad.
3. The children grow up with divorced parents, but always feel it was so much better than 2 unhappy people staying together just “for the sake of the kids”…and they realize it wasn’t them (the kids) that ever did anything to keep their parents from finding their happiness, and the kids never felt like they went without being loved and supported by their parents.
4. Everybody was sealed in the temple and is active in church…so there is really no effect of the divorce that majorly impacts anyone’s salvation in the next life, or happiness in this life.
If that was the end of the story, then perhaps we can let go of focusing on divorce as “so so sad”…and realizing that for this family, their path was to bring 3 beautiful children into the world and love them and raise them best they could, while dealing with situations that life throws at them, and still coming out triumphant as a family!
And at the judgement seat…God will tell both couples…”well done, thou good and faithful servant. You learned to love, as I love.”
Meanwhile…those that look down on Dan or that family because it was “broken” or “divorce is the greatest plague of this generation” will have a different conversation at the judgment seat of God.
The failure is not divorce. The success or failure will be how Dan and Jill make choices as they deal with their situation, and how they continue to put raising the children as their top priority…however that looks.
A sad story, as other folks have noted. And I’d second what Klee said about rushing into marriage. The church has a serious problem, IMO, regarding how it pushes young people towards marriage before they’re ready. On the one hand, we talk about how getting married is the most important, sacred thing you can do (apparently is SO important that only heterosexuals are allowed to do it, but I digress) and it has eternal consequences, etc. And yet, on the other hand, we tell returning missionaries and other of our young people to hurry up and get married. That’s a deeply cynical move, in my opinion, because I think the only reason we tell our young people to hurry up and get married is so they won’t have premarital sex. And I think if we loosened the reins a bit and our young people spent a longer time getting to know each other (both intimately and not), we’d have fewer of these stories.
I do see/hear a lot of this in the church, esp. the difficulty of two partners who have varying degrees of ambition. That seems to be quite a difficult challenge to overcome. And the contacting of an old friend is particularly poignant to me, because that was the beginning of how my spouse at the time ended up leaving our marriage. It’s too bad we (Mormons) can’t do better with some of this stuff.
Very sad story. Like Jeff, I don’t find it particularly Mormon. But there’s so much that can be commented on that I get the feeling the post is more about revealing the biases and mindsets of the commenters than anything particular in the story.
“I get the feeling the post is more about revealing the biases and mindsets of the commenters than anything particular in the story.”
There’s something about the way this was written that had me wondering the same thing.
I think the story has elements that are VERY Mormon: differences in levels of ambition of the spouses, marrying too young and with no counseling, one spouse staying at home and being dependent on the other. And yet, many LDS marriages are not like this. It’s more that we have this idea that any two people can get married and make it work, an idea that I think is only true to a point. These types of differences do matter over the long haul. We should want happy and well-suited marriages, not just ones of endurance and patience (which are also important qualities). I agree with Markag’s implication that more up front counseling before marriage should be “required” or even “encouraged,” but so long as our norm is to wait until marriage to have sex, we’re going to have quick engagements ;). I also like the idea that the most important part of the story is what happens next as they continue to navigate things. Divorce happens, and it’s a positive because the only thing worse than divorce is staying in a bad marriage.
At least in the part of the country where I live, LDS kids are taking a little more time than in years past to jump into marriage. Hopefully that will eliminate some of the stories like this one. I know this story may be fictional and that my next comment is not necessarily to the main point of this article, but if this story is true then the priesthood leaders filling out the applications may have failed miserably. As someone who unfortunately (although in some circumstances very much fortunately) has submitted numerous such applications, if a person is submitting an application for cancellation/clearance and sealing, and the applicant and the person to whom the applicant wishes to be sealed were in any way involved prior to the divorce or that person played a role in the break up of the marriage, then this timeline generally would not have been approved. In those circumstances it is much harder to get things approved and the “brethren” generally would require a longer waiting period (and this even assumes that they are “temple worthy.”). But of course if this is real there is much I don’t know about it.
As I get older in life and see good friends getting involved in divorce, when the divorces are ugly it is so hard.
MH:, “There is not marriage counseling at all from anyone prior to an LDS marriage, in or out of the Temple”.
I would take that to mean “required” since our Bishop did so with my son and his fiance. Still, it’s totally goofy. Every two years you must be counseled on worthiness to renew a Temple recommend, but no such counseling is required before making a lifetime, hopefully eternal, commitment?
Marriage has temporal, earthly, nuts-and-bolts issues that must be addressed beforehand. I feel sorry for any LDS couple who are only told “Pray/Read the Scriptures/Attend church/Pay tithing ” for a successful marriage. I have my own “4 things for a successful marriage” and they’re not the same.
Markag,
That’s part of the problem with a lay clergy. Bishops can be teachers, accountants, mechanics, salesman, and yes, psychologists. Most have no training in counseling. What kind of advice would an accountant give for a struggling couple? If you’re lucky and get the psychologist, you’re in luck. If you get the accountant, he can be good a finances, but maybe horrible at conflict resolution.
There’s a long history in the LDS Church of “if you’re both worthy, pray, etc, you can work it out.” (I know Pres Kimball said that.) Having said that, I had a bishop who was an agriculture teacher. He did better at counseling than the LDS Social Services social worker (Sally) I met, who was more interested in “time’s up! Sorry I didn’t help, but I have someone else to see!” IMO, bishops should have better resources than LDS Social Services. My experience is that LDSSS weren’t helpful at all, but it can take several attempts to get a counselor you both like. I hated ones my wife liked and vice versa. And Private counselors have a spotty track record of success too. My advice for anyone struggling out there is to not feel bad about firing bad counselors. It can take multiple attempts to get one you like. The one I finally liked (Jack), my insurance didn’t, so I ended up paying through the nose. I quit seeing him after some expenses had racked up, but he put us on a good trajectory and things have been better since seeing the expensive, good guy. (Expensive ones are still cheaper than divorce, but I wish my insurance company had cooperated better.) I had one counselor (Bill) that had me on the verge of divorce. Bill was horrible, despite the glowing recommendation of a friend. I don’t feel bad about firing Bill at all, and wanted to tell him to get training from Jack. I went into counseling wanting to work it out; after I met Bill, I wanted a divorce. Lucky for me Jack saved the marriage.
In short, there are both good and bad counselors, in and out of the church. I believe all of mine were LDS, but Jack was by far the most skilled, and Bill should have his license revoked. Sad to say Jack’s retired now.
MDM: “if a person is submitting an application for cancellation/clearance and sealing, and the applicant and the person to whom the applicant wishes to be sealed were in any way involved prior to the divorce or that person played a role in the break up of the marriage, then this timeline generally would not have been approved.” Bear in mind that people who become involved with someone else prior to the divorce are going to lie through their teeth about it and find self-justifications to do so.
MH is right. Never feel bad about firing a therapist or counselor. You have to find the one that understands and is willing to work on your goals, and who you feel good working with. No reputable therapist is going to get upset if you say, “Hey, this isn’t working for me, I’m going to try to find someone else.”
From a psychologist.
While we do typically have shorter engagements than other populations, I don’t think that is the problem. Our divorce rate, while increasing, has yet to be as high as the rest of the population. So, making engagements longer, may not necessarily be the answer. I think that premarriage counseling, not by local leaders, but by paid professionals is something that should be expected, with scheduled follow up.
Sad situation as it developed, but will turn out ok if everyone tries harder to do better going forward. (Shame on anyone who makes divorce very ugly.)
For those concerned that Jill is still sealed to Dan, no worries there at all. Temple marriages must be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise which happens only if the two spouses live in love and worthiness with, and toward, each other. If they can’t stand each other, ignore each other’s needs, don’t give counseling the utmost efforts, cheat on the other, quit trying, etc. they have not lived worthy of the sealing and it is null and void.
Millions of members aren’t really truly sealed even though they think they are. Many will be surprised to find they didn’t live worthy of their spouses and will not necessarily be together in the eternities after all.
I’ve never understood why the church is hesitant to grant sealing cancellations to parents when they haven’t lived worthy of a happy marriage that makes the sealing moot anyway. Kids are still born in an irrevocable covenant because they didn’t do anything to nullify their sealing into the family of God, only their parents did. No one is going to be stuck in a crappy marriage to a jerk in heaven.
Good points, RockiesGma.
Sealings in general become a puzzling concept. What does it look like in heaven when someone is sealed or not sealed to someone else, do you imagine?
The root of divorce is selfishness, not differences. I do not have respect for a person who does not give their all in choosing love in marriage, particularly when children are involved. The New Testament is very clear on divorce, and I believe what Christ taught on the matter. Just because our policies appear lax, does not change eternal truth. Many will find themselves “sealed” only to realize they cut themselves off from the line that bound them to celestial society. There is no escaping truth, no matter how neatly you can frame a justification. The broken hearts of spouses and especially children will be accounted for.
The root of divorce is selfishness, not differences.
My first reaction to this counter-factual statement was “Utter nonsense.” Upon sober reflection I have moderated my reaction to, “Unfortunately, this is not always the case.” In our test case, there may well have been some selfishness involved, but there’s also a healthy dose of irresistible force/immovable object. The parties had “irreconcilable differences,” almost literally – geographically, career-wise, even as regards the raising of their children (who stand to be the real losers in this unless calmer heads prevail in the settlement arrangements, as Heber13 outlines). Who’s supposed to give? How much? Where’s the middle? At what point has a couple, or one or both of the individuals, stopped caring to the point where the work isn’t worth it to them?
Sometimes a divorce is an acknowledgment of what “we should have seen before we got married.” Sometimes it’s the result of two young people changing as they age; no one is who they’ll be forever at 22 or 25 (or 18!). In the Savior’s time when wives were chattel, it was easy to say that divorce was unthinkable. In essence, he was commanding men not to get rid of their wives when they got bored. But once you admit that your wife is fully human, and a thinking, feeling person with a life of her own, it’s inevitable that some couples simply don’t find themselves able to be happy together forever. One shouldn’t be expected to subsume his/her existence to the desires of the other, and if the goals are incompatible and compromise isn’t possible, shake hands and part friends.
There’s no shame in it unless we act and react shamefully.
PS: I don’t believe that “Make yourself miserable and unfulfilled for the sake of avoiding a ‘selfish’ divorce” is what the Lord meant by “Men [and women] are that they might have joy.” Actual physical martyrdom is one thing; psychological and emotional martyrdom quite another.
This story reminds me of The Dating Crisis post…..a “7-8 ” woman settles for “2-4” husband.
Angela: “Bear in mind that people who become involved with someone else prior to the divorce are going to lie through their teeth about it and find self-justifications to do so.”
Sad but true in some instances. Fortunately in all the applications I’ve been involved in it became very obvious (or it was already well known) when there was foul play involved (talking about when new spouse was part of the reason the first marriage broke up). And fortunately that scenario in our stake at least has not been too common. What is really sad is how many divorces don’t involve abuse or infidelity but rather reasons that could be resolved. Certainly we can all agree that divorce can be much more complex than what appears on the surface. And kids generally are those who suffer the most. Such a blessing when they have a good support system in the ward, extended family, friends etc.
Having never been married, I can’t speak authoritatively to the nuts and bolts of this story. However, as I read it, I was struck how I found my sympathies pulled one way and then the other. With friends and family I’ve seen experience divorce, I generally do not assume that the marriage’s failure is entirely the fault of one or the other spouse. So this story read plausible to me. Ultimately, it seemed more knowing, perhaps more understanding, of Jill’s perspective.
I was interested by a couple of comments saying the story seems written to reveal the biases of the reader. Compelling observation. Speaking as a creative writer, I find an economy to this story’s prose. Or I might call it a leanness. The focus seems to be on a recitation of essential details, essential by having substantial implications for the characters. I appreciated this choice and the resulting piece a great deal. I found it revealing and saddening (mostly by way of empathy for fellow adults).
“What is really sad is how many divorces don’t involve abuse or infidelity but rather reasons that could be resolved.”
This thought has occurred to me several times too. But at the same time what is resolvable to me is not necessarily resolvable to someone else. And it gets to the ‘martyr to misery’ idea as well. If I were in a marriage where there was no abuse nor infidelity, but it was a miserable experience for my partner and I, should we just keep trying forever? It makes me think back to my mission days. There were some companions who while on the surface we had a lot in common were total mismatches for me. With one in particular, I was counting down the seconds to get a transfer. The companion wasn’t a bad person, wasn’t doing anything wrong, we were just wrong for each other and grated on each other endlessly (no doubt, she says the same of me). And interestingly, it took some time for me to realize that. (I loved her at first!). So I don’t know that we should look at people who divorce for differences as somehow lacking in a ‘they just didn’t try hard enough’ way. Especially when LDS culture pushes marriage to hard and so fast that some couples are getting married when they only first met a couple of months prior.
Thanks for posting the story without commentary. It was compellingly written and interesting. And it’s interesting to see people draw their own conclusions unguided.
I think the tragedy of this story is that divorce is perceived as such a failure, and entered into with such turmoil. Why should divorce always be seen as a failure? Why couldn’t divorce mark the end of a successful marriage that lasted a certain number of years? Why not a celebration of the good times, the sacrifice and love that had been given? Why not accept people for who they are, where they are, and what they want, even if you are married to them? Isn’t that what true love really is?
We often say that divorce hurts children. But is this really true? Isn’t it the anger and childishness accompanying the divorce that is actually hurting the children, to see their parents behaving like school kids fighting over toys? If the parents split amicably and were still good friends, would the children suffer? Could it not be seen as positive to bring new step-parents into a relationship, not as replacements, but as additions to a happy family?
I know those are probably overly idealistic notions, but it would help if culturally, there were some new ways of conceptualising divorce, new patterns that might provide direction for couples who need to divorce, but could potentially find a less explosive way to do so.
The story is so sad.
Steve S wrote: “The root of divorce is selfishness, not differences. I do not have respect for a person who does not give their all in choosing love in marriage, particularly when children are involved.[snip]
There is no escaping truth, no matter how neatly you can frame a justification. The broken hearts of spouses and especially children will be accounted for.”
I am happy for you, Steve, that you have never found yourself in a position where you can see how very wrong you are. If a person doesn’t give it their all, and if the broken hearts did not occur during a toxic marriage…I might agree with you. But those are the poor assumptions placed on all divorced families and situations and I don’t find that to be close to reflecting reality.
I once thought divorce was never an option, and the fate of eternal exaltation was at stake on that. But life has a way of opening our minds to see how God loves us in so many more ways than just some narrow interpretations of New Testament writings that clearly do not so neatly apply to all situations in our lives today, hence the need for prophets today like Joseph Smith to help restore truth that is not completely contained in the bible. At the heart of the gospel teachings is love and personal responsibility, among many things.
It was precisely my love and commitment to my children’s future well-being that I let go of the idea that divorce was not an option for me, and it took some confusing personal revelation that God approved, for many reasons, of divorce as an option to lead my family towards a safe place, similar to Nephi taking family away from Laman and Lemuel (also family). Some situations are not safe to remain as they are.
The issue is not divorce vs no divorce, but how you pass through the trials of this life always keeping an eternal perspective on what is best for the whole family in the eternities.
Seeing how my children are now married in the temple, on missions, and active in the church AFTER the divorce compared to the drugs in the home, hospital visits, and police frequenting the house at 3 and 4am taking someone away in handcuffs (3 separate events) BEFORE divorce is what gives me confidence God knows about how broken hearted the kids were while in a toxic married situation where I was doing everything possible to keep the family together and trying to work it out through marriage counselors and bishops and RS Presidents and HPGLs and every possible resource to exhaust.
Perhaps the part you don’t address in your cold comment is: What if a person gives it their all for over a decade…and it makes no difference and is on a course of total destruction of the family? Then what? Keep going and let the family go down in flames just so you can say “well…the New Testament is clear about this”? That seems awfully stubborn and very selfish to the kids.
I am very close to all my kids to this day. They still ask me for a Father’s Blessings. They admire me for giving all in an impossible situation. They are grateful I don’t have to suffer, and they aren’t living in a house full of lies and fighting and fear, and now they see their life clearly and have a greater sense of identity to discern right from wrong among difficult choices. They have a new step-mom and step-siblings that increase the loving relationships of our family that never existed before. Although it has been an admittedly curious path, I am grateful God has led our family along to enjoy a much happier and loving life forward, and divorce is part of our family story, but doesn’t define us or our exaltation. It simply doesn’t fit your description.
I don’t think my situation is so unique, there are many good families, that deal with many things.
I doubt I would see it this way unless I had to pass through it and have my eyes opened to new ideas.
If that “cuts us off” from some celestial body of saints who deplore our family, I will be grateful to not be sealed to such pompous, self-righteous snobs on their heavenly rameumptums.
God’s love is greater than that. Surprisingly, through an extremely difficult marriage and divorce, my children still love their parents and are happy and they better understand that marriage requires long-suffering, patience, and unselfishness and self-respect so we can find joy in this life…not just pass through a life sentence of coping with misery. We are held accountable for our actions. And when actions increase love, that seed grows to confirm in our hearts we are doing something good.
The negative stigma of divorce from members of the church needs to change, or too many of our kind and loving members who pass through this will simply not find nourishment at church where they are looked down upon for the difficult choices they have to make. They will simply stop coming instead of have to listen to painful comments when they already have suffered as they have.
I believe it is changing in the church culture.
I hope you change too. I hope you don’t have to go through what I did in order to see it more compassionately.
Heber13,
Yes, I agree with you, I certainly did not wish to say all divorced individuals/families will face such consequences. My comments are/were directed at the seemingly increasing attitude and opinion that differences and “compatibility” issues are justification enough to fracture a family. This world view seems to ascribe to the idea that marriage and partnership are about another person giving you happiness and fulfilling your desires. I believe this idea is in and of itself toxic, that it is inherently entitled, and is aiding in the rupture and devastation of families. That’s why I worded it strongly, I truly believe it is damaging people and many innocent children. I believe instead marriage is about learning to love in the face of imperfection, and to take responsibility and accountability for one’s own happiness. I believe many people are ascribing their unhappiness to their spouse, when in reality they are largely missing the gift in front of them that is the hardship and pressure that comes in being in a partnership with another flawed human being – the pressure that could allow them to see their own selfishness, to repent and grow, and learn the source of real and abiding happiness.
I did intend the caveat that one can indeed give their all in choosing love, in choosing family, and to no avail a partner may continue in unsafe and destructive behaviors that might make divorce a necessary decision. In such a circumstance, it is the loving choice – to the partner, to your children, to yourself – for it is not loving to collude in and prop up a tyrant when you have done all you can in addressing your own issues and taken all other measures to save your family, and yet there is no sign of change. I know such circumstances do exist. At the same time, I do not think this is the more common issue, so I did not choose to be so explicit about it in my first comment. I do believe more frequently marriages could be saved if people would be willing to take accountability for themselves and choose to love. And I think learning and taking to heart such an idea could save a lot of heartbreak, regret, and negative eternal consequences for many people. Which is why I wish to share.
Btw, I am also divorced, I know the stigma that exists, I know it’s hard, and I’m sorry.
Steve…thanks for the information. It does surprise me you have been through that and still see it as mostly because people that get divorced just don’t try.
I often hear that at church as part of a lazy broad brush stroke to paint the world as nameless, faceless, and faithless people in the large and spacious building that just don’t try.
But to the individual situations that I see, and I certainly don’t know all the details in people’s homes, but when I was in the bishopric and a sister in the ward was scared for herself and her 2 boys when the spouse took a golf club through the big screen TV and yelling and calling her every foul word in the book, she came to live in our basement for a few days until she could get legal help and a restraining order. She was not just needing a lecture from me on how to accept imperfection and stop being selfish.
She was brave and got our support and did what she needed to protect her 2 boys. I stay in touch with her to this day, and although she never remarried she raised both boys who served honorable full time missions, one now married in the temple and raised fine young men. Their dad, on the other hand…is on his 3rd marriage and being served papers again, because of his issues.
Is it a matter of “incompatibility” in their relationship. Yep. And they are better off as a family separate than sticking it out. The same with my situation.
My sister, did not need a lesson on taking accountability and responsibility, as her husband was sleeping around and spending their money while she tried to raise their daughter. She moved in with my parents and did what was needed to divorce him and go to school and raise her daughter. She has remarried to a doctor, had 3 more kids and their family is happy and beautiful. She, also, is better off because of divorce…although she felt like a failure for years…and it wasn’t her fault.
Why can’t more talks at church focus on that need for people?
My cousin called me in tears hoping for advice because she was scared…her husband is a wealthy powerful CEO and well-known stake YM president…but yells and berates her and she finds herself curled up in a ball in the kitchen with him standing over her yelling in front of the kids…and she can’t imaging she is supposed to put up with that the rest of her life. He won’t go to counseling, he sings a different tune to the bishop, he’s narcissistic and duplicitous and drinks alcohol and is dishonest. But holds a TR and she doesn’t have to live like that. I told her Heavenly Father knows her heart, and if she follows the spirit, she can have a happy life and positive eternal outlook. After spending time in the temple, she knew what was right. She filed for divorce. She knows it is hard, but it is the best option. She is not supported by ward members who can’t imagine she is telling the truth about her husband who puts on such a good face to the public.
I know her…she is the sweetest person. She is not selfish, or irresponsible, or just wants wordly pleasure to pine for greener pastures. She is intelligent, kind, spiritual, and has endured emotional abuse too long to have to be told to hold on because the NT is clear on what Jesus says about divorce.
I know of 5 in our ward who come to church single after divorce, sometimes with their kids, sometimes by themselves. They are trying.
What it seems to me like is they are the ones in church trying and they are the ones that hear the message about how divorce is destroying families, and that if they were faithful loving saints try to work through issues and to shed selfishness of divorce, the promised blessings are that God protects those that are righteous from the adversary trying to destoy homes.. When they are the ones trying. It leaves them wondering…”where are my blessings? what am I doing wrong? after all I’ve endured…why am I still in this place? how long does this go on?”
Because the message at church is “divorce is your fault.”
For me and many like me…the family was being destroyed….not divorce destroying the family. But church seems to continue to send that message “divorce is something painful”…and those hearing it are thinking…”I know…but…what am I supposed to do now when I’ve tried everything else?”
Perhaps those comments about being responsible and unselfish are justified if you could get the ones that are selfish and irresponsible to go to church and open their hearts to listen to that. But…they are not the ones in the pews, crying through the sacrament, hoping for support and the strength to keep trying.
So it always puzzles me that faithful members of the church repeat those messages, instead of compassionate messages that despite our circumstances and the choices of others, we can find hope through the gospel. Despite divorce, God’s love is strong enough to keep families together, kids can go on to serve missions and go to the temple, and be happy, healthy, loving families despite the choices of others that we cannot control.
For every couple that has someone that needs to hear the message about trying to do all things to save marriage…it seems that message is painful and hurtful to the other. How often are both in the divorce of equal fault for selfishness and not trying?
I don’t think it is really that common. I don’t find that explains the majority of my family and my friends and my ward that have people who deal with the effects of divorce…but…it is still what is preached…for some puzzling reason…to those in the pews already beaten down and tired. And so very often…they just stop going to church so they don’t have to hear it.
Therefore the harsh message is going to alienate 50% of the audience that is struggling to find peace, and likely be ignored by the ones that need to hear it…or they would be working on it already.
I just don’t get it. When I put the names and faces to the families that are impacted by divorce…I don’t see the majority being selfish. I just don’t see that, unless people are making widespread generalizations about “the world” and then privately telling those in the pews…”oh…but not you sweetie…you’re a good person…it’s just the other people we are talking about.”
Sorry I couldn’t keep it more concise. It is just so puzzlig to me that we think all those who divorce are so shallow, and the root is selfishness for all involved…when that is such a big part of our LDS community we are talking about. It is never clarified who we are talking about and who we aren’t. That’s all.
Heber13,
You seem motivated to not acknowledge the truth in what I’m saying, even if disagreeing with some of my opinion. Not sure why that is.
For example, it seems like you would agree in the examples you have given – of adultery and abuse to the point where these individuals have been scared for their safety – that such acts destroying the marriages were selfish and hateful acts at their core. Or maybe I’m wrong, do you believe those acts at their root were simply personality differences or life goal differences? That they “just grew apart” and therefore felt the need to abuse or cheat on their spouse?
I think we’re in agreement on the right thing to do in the examples you have given. The opening post seems to me to point to a categorically different type of marriage/divorce, which was what I intended to address. Your experience seems to be different, in my experience these types of divorces (like the one outlined in the OP) in and out of the church are far more common.
I am saying, just talk about the real problems, like abuse and adultery. Or talk about selfishness.
Divorce in and of itself is benign. It is a choice to deal with things that already exist.
When you focus on divorce as the problem, you miss the root causes and hurt innocent people.
Saying divorce is the problem is similar to saying a faith crisis is because people are lazy and just want to justify personal wants.
It can be someone’s opinion who hasn’t say to discuss it with an individual.
But it isn’t the true issue.
That’s my opinion based on multiple observation. Admittedly, limited. But I believe more responsible and compassionate. Why focus on divorce? It’s missing the point for so many responsible families. And it isn’t the end of the world.
Society has evolved, options make it less devastating to children and women.
Religion holds on to too many archaic ideas.
I know many will find the words of Christ to be archaic and outdated to modern sensibilities, I have sympathy for that, I think it is easy to believe it is so, but I don’t believe it. In the end the greatest to suffer will be those who don’t live according to truth. The world would teach us that a partner is to fulfill our needs and give us happiness, and when they don’t provide that for us that it is okay to discard and move on to someone who does appear to do that in the new short term. It’s a recipe for regret and misery.
I don’t recall saying divorce is the problem, we’ve discussed exceptions. But I believe one of the most insidious ideas often promoted as right and good, is that mere differences in personality, ambition, or desires means that a happy marriage isn’t possible. I see it used as the easy excuse as to why a marriage isn’t working – to pretend the underlying hostility and resentment built up over years does not exist, and that nobody is truly at fault. It hides from accountability, it indulges self-centered nature, and will lead to perpetual misery even if it provides a counterfeit temporary excitement and illusion of freedom through escapism. I don’t believe this teaching. I do stand by the idea that the root of divorce is selfishness. When both partners choose love and deal with their selfish natures, the marriage will not disintegrate.
Women, men, and children all lose in such decisions , and nobody more than the one who indulges in the lie – for the truth will eventually be seen for what it is. The same holds true for the adulterers and abusers, and all who live in self-deception and self-justification in self-indulgent acts. My desire is not to condemn, but to act as a warning voice to those who might fall trap to such lies.
Heber13,
I’ve given more time to think about what you said, and the more I reflect on it I think you are right, and I failed to acknowledge many of the important things you brought up. I agree, the message you put forth is not being taught, and it is leaving many people in pain.
I think perhaps because of the gravity of the topic and how hard the situation really is for people, it’s an easy topic to try and avoid, and conversely difficult to take square on and speak candidly about. Speaking openly and specifically about divorce, when and when it would not be justified, the effects of divorce, how to act in love both in the situation and to those who may be enduring it, and how the atonement can heal the beaten and bruised, that God will not abandon the broken and that they may be made whole, and how the sinner might find forgiveness and healing through repentance.
I think ironically giving only half, vague and sweeping condemnations and little else leaves room for wickedness to find and feel self-justification, while simultaneously leaving the beaten down honest-in-heart individuals feeling judged and ostracized. The subject and reality is a tough thing to acknowledge and face in truth and genuineness, so I get that, yet as it is in the Church it does seem there is much we could do better in.