2015 has been a relatively turbulent year for the LDS Church. Beginning with the February ex-communication of John Dehlin and culminating in the November release of “The Policy”. Continued releases of LDS Gospel topics essays as well as the release of a photo of the seer stone used by Joseph Smith to produce the Book of Mormon have also contributed to this discussion.
Many have considered this year to be pivotal in the church’s future with very clear statements made about “apostates” and “homosexuals”. Thousands have apparently left, either officially or unofficially. However, a lot of the talk has been around those who have not previously been liberal in their leaning, just your average church attending member. This, to me has been the most interesting development.
A bit of the talk, particularly around “The Policy” spoke of the Church not being very Christlike – that we were not showing the love Christ would have – the Charity… Hearing friends of mine speak of the Church lacking a basic and fundamental aspect of the Gospel was surprising. I read blogs, and their comments, with people expressing very strong emotion, strong spiritual feelings – many were negative. Forgive my crassness – many were dumping on the Church. On the policy, the behaviour, the leaders, those supporting such a policy – people were and are upset.
Allow me to share a short story. In my professional capacity, I received a call from a police officer who was at an Emergency Department following them having just brought in a person. This person had just tried to commit suicide by jumping from a cliff face, but was fortunately talked back by these fine police. The police indicated to me that the head Doctor was refusing them entry, which was seemingly against the law. I was able to later speak with the Doctor in an attempt to resolve the impasse. During my first sentence where I was introducing myself, the Doctor interrupted and said, “Look, I don’t care who you are. I’m running one of the busiest Emergency Departments in the state. I don’t have time to be dealing with these people. Your police are bringing in these people all the time! It takes me away from the genuinely sick people that need my help” He then hung up.
Apart from being one of the rudest people I have ever spoken to, this Doctor did not have the belief that a person who, only 15 minutes earlier wanted to kill himself, belonged in an Emergency Department. He saw these people as outside his area of responsibility. People with a mental illness were not able to receive his help as genuine people with sore stomachs, broken limbs and whiplash were more deserving.
I have often reflected on this most heinous example of discrimination to remind me that there are some people and organisations in this world who have the legal, cultural or moral obligation to care for a certain population of people – but who don’t. School teachers who sexually abuse, carers who fail to extend proper care and treatment to those in their charge and churches who condone and support systematic sexual abuse of children fall within this category.
I have often thought about the way in which our church responds and deals with the poorest and most vulnerable in our society. My experience is we don’t do it very well. Unlike most Christian churches we do not have much ability to extend ourselves into our local communities to reach out. No soup kitchens, no visits to homeless, no community gardens. (I have heard very few and isolated examples of this happening across the church population). Most of our humanitarian efforts seem to be focused on developing and struggling nations. A couple I know recently served as a Humanitarian companionship in Bosnia – doing some wonderful work. But such work is limited and is directed at a general level of the church. What about the poor and suffering here in Australia – what are we doing to help them? Not much.
A recent example highlighted my frustration at our response to this population.
A member friend of mine indicated that the missionaries had brought a homeless man to his Ward. This member began to outline, rather negatively, the fact that this man was wearing a leather coat and pants that did not match – totally, in his opinion, inappropriate for visiting his Ward. He continued. Apparently at some stage during the meeting, the man took himself to the bathroom and, due to the cubicle being occupied, did his business (number 2) on the floor in the corner. He was also seen to be taking food from the fridge and eating it.
This friend of mine then made a remark similar to the Doctor I mentioned above. He said, “What sort of people are the missionaries bringing here to Church. Can’t they find anyone normal”. What a comment!!! There was some chatter about this situation with the many family and friends that were in attendance and once it settled down I said, “So, what did you offer him – how did you help” He didn’t answer and was somewhat taken back by my challenging remark. I noticed that he was a bit embarrassed and then, to take the heat off, I said, “So with 15 million members, billions of dollars in the kitty, churches dotted all over this city, missionaries in record numbers – with all of this, what, as a Church, can we offer him”. He looked similarly puzzled and I ended up answering for him, “Nothing. With everything available to us we can offer him nothing”.
And so like my Doctor friend, there are apparently people in the Church who think that we should exclude people on the basis of complex or difficult needs. Further that there is a lack of ecclesiastical support to provide such assistance. And finally, that there is a culture that promotes the benefits of baptising of functional rich people over the care of the poor and needy.
This man obviously had complex and significant needs. He obviously needed a suite of services to help him. But, with all of what we have, the best we could do was ultimately to kick him out the door. My experience is that the missionaries would not bring him to church again and probably not work with him to get him help or assistance. We actually could do so much more and it saddens me that as a church we just don’t engage very well with people unless they come to church clean, married, employed and with kids.
For all the “crap” people heaped on the Church for the issues in 2015, this homeless man, to me, highlighted our most critical flaw. That with all the resources available to us as a church, that we do not honour the admonition contained throughout the scriptures we profess to believe – to relieve the suffering of the poor:
Old Testament
Deuteronomy 15:11
11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land
New Testament
Matthew 19:21
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Book Of Mormon
Mormon 8:37
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
Doctrine and Covenants
Doctrine and Covenants 52:40
40 And remember in all things the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted, for he that doeth not these things, the same is not my disciple.
And so it is with this thought that I enter this Christmas season. I will try to do my bit to help those around me who are poor and needy. Unfortunately, this will not be achieved through the institutional church. I will have to leave that space and search out a need to assist.
It is my hope that for those who literally crap on the Church that we find a way to see that as an opportunity to help and not a distraction to our meeting schedule.
Wheat & Tares 
What A Satanic lie!I am currently a full-time senior missionary and have been so for at least a year and a half. I’ve watched thousands upon thousands of dollars being funneled into assisting and helping individuals and families in my community. We were privileged to baptize a gay gentleman who said the only organization that was willing to move him from one state to another was the Mormon church and asked nothing in return. Six years later he sought the Church out and we missionaries to teach him and baptize him. The LDS Church thousands of dollars into our communities homeless shelters and other organizations. Look up Welfare services at LDS.org, not to mention 12 step programs etc get your facts straight!!
Let us not forget that fast offerings, collected and disbursed by every ward and branch in the Church, is not included in published totals of humanitarian help. Nor are the hundreds of hours spent by ward leadership every year with food orders to the poor, help with rent, car repair, companionship to the lonely, career help, move-in/move-out, etc.
Granted, most of this help is prioritized to the “worthy poor” (i.e. member of the church in good standing, then other members, and only then to non-members) but in most areas, it is significant. My experience in the Spokane area says it runs to the thousands of dollars per unit per month in help extended.
In Utah wards, it probably runs to several times that figure, and is directed to mostly non-members. Every city has an “agent bishop” designated to help itinerant and homeless needy people.
Sure we as a church could do more. But I feel that as a Church we do far more to help the poor than most blog posts, including this one, give credit.
The church has received many accolades worldwide from governments and other churches and organizations for it’s incredible generosity towards local, community, and worldwide relief efforts. I’m always absolutely stunned by anti-Mormons and fringe Mormons that sit on the sidelines and point the finger like the people in the large and spacious building at members of the church and the church itself which always tries to better the individual and the community.
For all the good the church does – and I do mention that in the post for those who care to look – I wonder what good that did the gentleman that walked into my friends ward. I wonder, if you were him, what you would have felt of the wonderful worldwide efforts of the LDS Church.
If you consider a backhanded compliment a compliment, but in reality you do exactly what your title says. You dump on the church.
Kitty – merry Christmas to you too.
So if I get you right, you are saying that because you have had a different experience that you are automatically right!! That my experience does not represent the “facts” and yours does?? By your own definition you are as narrow minded as you claim me to be.
I’m more than happy for anyone to express a different opinion than me, and to highlight parts of my information that are deficient or wrong, however I will not accept veiled name calling or references to my opinions being influenced by Satan.
Feel free not to comment, or to go somewhere else, if you can’t or won’t control your language.
I think The Other Clark has it mostly right, as far as fast offerings go, though I might quibble with some of the details.
But I think there is a poignant point to make that some of us (I include the “me” of Christmas Past) point to the church’s charity and claim it as our own. Or we claiming tithing as equivalent to giving to the homeless or needy. Or we do give to a charitable organization while keeping a safe distance from the needy.
In spite of a possible legal designation as a charitable contribution for tax purposes, tithing does not provide welfare for the needy; it provides for church houses and temples. (I’m actually hoping that changed after the announcement of the fourth mission of the church, but I’ve heard no evidence of it). I believe that the church’s charity comes from fast offerings and contributions to the humanitarian fund. There are a couple of other possible sources. But the vast majority of member contributions are probably going to tithing, which we have been told does not feed the hungry.
The story here of the homeless man is an example of how people’s donations to a charity (fast offerings and tithing) allow them to feel less guilty about turning away a person in need. They don’t need to feel guilty about helping him because they have done their bit already by giving donations to the church.
It’s a tough issue. It actually is more efficient (and safer in some cases, remember Brian David Mitchell) to give to a charity that can organize itself and feed masses of people. But to that man that is looking in the fridge for food it might be more meaningful to let him have some of the leftovers then to send him away to the soup kitchen.
One more thing: if, as a missionary, I had made any kind of effort to proselyte to normal people as opposed to needy people, I may as well have stayed home.
For better or worse, the church at the local level doesn’t have anything to offer homeless people that come stumbling to their door or that missionaries drag into sacrament meeting. We are not like the Lutherans or Catholics who see that as part of their primary mission. The bishops can dish out a little money from fast offerings for them and try to put them in touch with social services, but that is all. Fast offering is usually for members only, and then it comes with all sorts of strings attached. You have to demonstrate that you are working and trying to live the gospel.
If the church put in place some kind of service for homeless people, it would have to be a huge program, like the soup kitchens or shelters that other churches run. Once we start dolling out food and money, they will come in droves.
Of course soup kitchens and shelters are important, and my local ward does activities that raise money for local charities and some of the members volunteer in soup kitchens for other churches. On a church-wide level, the church has a humanitarian aid fund, and where there is more of an LDS presence, I think the welfare program is beefed with Deseret Industries and Welfare Square to include a more comprehensive path for non-member homeless people as well.
But where Mormons are in small minorities, they simply don’t have the resources to offer much to the homeless population. The best thing to do would be to have local stakes and wards try and engage in ecumenical charitable efforts with churches that have more resources allocated to this problem.
In the future, I think the church may reprioritise its mission to become a bit more similar to Catholics and Lutherans. Right now, the emphasis is on finding people to baptise, not finding people homes. But if conversion rates continue to decline while missionary service continues to boom, we are going to have to find other things for missionaries to do. Engaging in community services that help the homeless might be something the church encourages missionaries to do in the future.
I think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints fulfills it mission well, so I disagree with the original poster’s dump on the church. Latter-day Saints are free to do good, anywhere and everywhere. Many do much good, much of it unseen. Others don’t, but maybe they will later. Still others write on the internet and dump on the Church. Any person seeing a need is free to help — but some prefer to talk badly about others instead. As individuals increase in charity, they will do more to help those in need and they will talk less about others who they see as not helping. May we all increase in charity.
LDS_Aussie, my first comment was not intended to deny the reality of the problem you illustrated so well.
The bottom line is that the church DOES value some kinds of people more than others. (e.g. Worldwide, mission presidents prioritize FAMILIES, and in high-baptizing missions in Africa, some are given explicit instructions not to teach single women, but to focus on families and men-potential leadership and priesthood).
Individuals like this homeless man you describe are surely loved by the Lord the same as his other children. As a Church, though, I agree that we lack the infrastructure, resources, and really doctrinal framework to make this a major outreach.
I try to reach out to community organizations (homeless shelters, family crisis centers) during christmas and other times of the year for charity giving above and beyond any basic Tithe & FO. FO goes to ward members (typically active or inactive) and very many people fall through the cracks in our communities. I want to help those that have the least amount of help/support system/fall back.
Also I v v much agree that this last year or two has been a major transition phase / growing pains (not in membership #s) of the Church. So much groundbreaking progress along side so many hurtful incidents. At times it feels like a whirlwind; at the very least whiplash. V interested to see where we go from here.
I think the article is right on the money. The church does very little for homeless people or have complex problems that cannot be treated easily. We spent 1.5 billion for a mall and yet over a 16 year period we spent that same amount on relief for the poor. That works out to be nothing compared to what we take in.
The title is a bit inflammatory, obviously, but there is some validity to the concept behind the criticism. We (at least in firmly middle class areas) aren’t very well equipped to deal with, either organizationally or individually, the truly poor.
I actually think Pres. Benson is one of the reasons. He said: “The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ would take the slums out of people, and then they would take themselves out of the slums.
The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature.”
I think that’s a sentiment that a lot of church members and local leaders still use, and it’s also reinforced by the strong conservative bent among members. The church actually does very well at this type of assistance, and there is truth to it, that when you change people’s hearts they find new ways to solve problems. But I’ve also encountered the unfortunate ugly cousin of this thinking in a few cases where members blame the poor for their circumstances and feel that the poor don’t deserve assistance.
It’s been my experience too that wards want families, normal families to join and noore crazies… But usually the missionaries only brought people with mental issues to church. To be fair, we didn’t know what to do with them. They don’t fit in to our correlated meetings. Maybe correlation is part of the problem.
The reality is that the LDS church is a minor player in terms of serving the needy of the world. Organizations like the Red Cross and other churches give far, far more to the poor both overall and percentage terms. The Church does some good but is efforts are really very moderate in size, even in heavily LDS areas. It is important to remember that the LDS Church funds primarily pay for temples, churches, real estate developments and church schools by every estimate. The Church’s disclosure a few years ago that its humanitarian efforts over a 30 year period were equivalent to what it put into the City Creek Mall in a lump sum is pretty telling. Charity is way down the list of priorities by every measure.
Not a huge fan of the title, or illustration…
However, I can understand the sentiment expressed. I agree with Nate that where members are in a small minority in a community there simply aren’t the resources of time etc. to draw on. I looked at some of the difficulties of long-term community involvement, and factors that may be inhibiting that in my post http://www.wheatandtares.org/12299/the-church-in-the-community/ .
I have also seen preference in the past for a particular sort of member discussed in my post http://www.wheatandtares.org/12085/trophy-converts/ , I will say though that my current ward are very good at reaching out to investigators and new members of all stripes, which is heartwarming.
There was a light snow falling at Temple Square on Christmas Eve 2009. It was a beautiful scene that revealed an ugly story, the homeless are not allowed in so the stand on the sidewalk near the walkways as well dressed people hurried by them pretending not to see. I went to the bank and withdrew $500.00 that I used to help a woman and her two kids get a room, food and gifts for her children.
Teach a man to fish results in callousness even death when too strictly applied. “The Policy” undresses the policy makers for all to see.
The new forth (fold) and often unknown or forgotten mission of the church is to care for the poor and needy.
I think most members in the Church really do want to do good and have Charity, but the organization of the Church often directs it in more comfortable ways that each of us doing our part to help the needy. Instead of donating to homeless shelters, food banks, or homeless people on the street, we pay tithing and fast offerings. We have already given more than 10% of our income to the Church, for most people there just isn’t much left for other giving.
Instead of volunteering at soup kitchens or handing out sandwiches to the homeless on the streets, we bring a meal to the woman who just had a baby. Or we make funeral potatoes for the widow whose husband just died.
These other types of service and charity take all of the resources we have and often we don’t have any left for the truly needy. I don’t necessarily think these things are bad, but are they the best use of our resources? I would put them in the category of good in the good, better, best triad.
I am not trying to criticize others, I have this problem as well. Often all my “service resources” go to those I see around me every day who appreciate but don’t really need my service and I forget that a few miles down the mountain are people I never see who really need my help.
I’m sure some would condemn me for this, but the way I solved the problem this year was instead of writing my large tithing check at the end of the year (I usually only pay tithing once a year in a lump sum), I took the money I would have paid and donated it to a few charities I thought were important including our local homeless shelter, our state food bank, and the fund at my husband’s company that goes entirely to buy Christmas presents for kids at the poorest elementary school in the state. I can only hope that this was the right decision and my money went to more important things than it would have if I had paid it to the Church.
Fast offerings are just a tiny fraction of tithing dollars. Tithing is primarily used for bricks and mortar building projects often literally valued more than human lives# Think of what could be done if the church took it’s fourth mission more seriously!
“Satanic lie!” Lol! Is that all they taught you in MTC? Do a little research sweetie!
Though your example of the homeless person does convey frustration, I would say that the message of the gospel as conveyed by the missionaries and the church does ‘help’ some outwardly very odd (peculiarly personality disordered or intellectually challenged) find a place to congregate for spiritual growth and inclusion.
There was the man who came to my college institute wards regularly in jeans, t-shirt, and unkempt that made sexist and harshly-toned comments. On the first day of my psychiatry rotation as a medical student, the intern buzzed us through the locked entrance and explained to me the conditions of the first person we would be seeing, and it was this man.
There was the ‘member’ I met during my mission in Japan who attended our English classes along with our investigators. He had a challenge in that he didn’t understand the boundaries of appropriate and rude comments. My investigator came to me and apologized for his rude behavior, not knowing that he was a ‘special’ member of the church.
When I attended a Native American branch for a year, there was an intoxicated man who came out of the cold and laid down on the last pew in the chapel to warm and sleep. He was allowed to rest, undisturbed for the entire block.
The ward council meeting I attended 5 days ago devoted considerable time to finding resources for an alcoholic new member who relapsed into addiction that is so bad, his partner cannot leave him alone for fear that he will turn on the range and forget that it is on. Ideas ranging from helping him fill out Medicaid paperwork to have a payer for local addiction services, to helping him apply for an out of town work/recovery program with the salvation army to having the missionaries show him the new church videos on addiction were discussed.
Though we don’t operate a food bank, our Stake President led a drive to participate in donating and packaging commodities for the Knights of Columbus.
I recently saw a young man in a heavy coat and backpack walk in to Taco Bell and stuff packets of ‘free’ taco bell sauce in his pockets then leave. I followed him out and asked if he was hungry, then bought a meal for him.
Of course, our efforts are not perfect. Our actions lack compassion. On the other hand, Elizabeth Smart’s captor was a homeless man, so I would be very, very reluctant to bring homeless persons to a place where they could learn things about my home security our my family.
I don’t know what kind of lies are being spread here but my two cents-
The LDS church as a whole and also by individual members do more to serve the poor and needy than any other church, organization, etc, per active capita. To hear people go on about the church and knock on it and hammer on it and its collective membership, cursed be on you tenfold.
The church does take care of (most of) it’s own and it shows up for disaster relief but it falls apart from a Christian perspective in 3 major areas. 1) They are noticably absent (except in token form) in chronic third world situations where people are literally facing death due to malnutrition, thirst and curable disease. Why? Because the demographics don’t support an attractive Return on Investment! How are those new poor members ever going to be able to pay for a meeting house and part of a Temple? 2) They repeatedly choose buildings over these lowly lives. 3) They take the teach a man to fish principal too far, solving malnutrition is a multigenerational problem, instead they simply let ’em die!
In my stake in MB, some people do charity and some people don’t. We have a ward here that honestly you think you walked into the westboro baptist church, the stuff they say to anyone non white is truly baffling. Some people do things anonymously, a guy and his wife in our ward regularly cut hair at a local soup kitchen which our stake volunteers at. I was the only one who went last month on our night though. We can do better, much better. The Temple in the Congo got approved before before ours has and after hearing various things now I know why, they are probably much better Christians then us!
I think this post is a reflection of just where our beloved blog has ended up.
The blog couldn’t end up here if the church didn’t supply the ammunition.
Rather than try to account for whatever passes for satanic lies or the juvenile graphics, I shall ponderize the declaration of the Prophet Mark Twain: “We may not doubt that society in heaven consists mainly of undesirable persons.”
To ask a ER doctor to treat a mentally ill patient ( the man trying to kill himself ) would be out of training the doctor had. He could only treat physical injuries, not the mental issues. No wonder the doctor was upset. Many members maybe in a similar condition, they don’t have the resources to help directly. But each of us could look in the mirror and ask what I could do more?
Sparks – here in Australia, the USA and Canada – as well as other western countries have laws that require police to detain such individuals and take them to and ED. Doctors are trained in this area and have powers under the respective mental health acts of those countries. In this case he was just displaying discrimination and a dereliction of his legal duty. I ended up escalating the matter to the regional manager and he was kicked up the rear for not doing his job.
Doing a quick internet searc,h reveals that an ER is not the best place to take the mentally ill
Sparks – been in the industry 17 years and doing PhD in the area. It’s not the best place to take people with a mental illness, however the legislation in many countries mandates it.
Internet doesn’t know everything.
I will always appreciate the lessons in self-reliance that I learned growing up Mormon. That said, it’s a real mixed message when wards are only getting 2-8% of tithing proceeds back, meaning the franchise charge runs around 92-98% of revenue (or so I’ve heard).
And when you’ve got lunch ladies getting fired in Mormon-majority communities like Pocatello for giving a hungry school kid a meal, one begins to wonder if all the talk about self-reliance hasn’t been, in some respects, a self-serving institutional attempt at misdirection.
When Jesus explained who would be with him in heaven and who wouldn’t, the only thing he said he cared about is whether you helped “the least of these” or not.
I don’t think he’s going to be impressed with your church. And given how much it spends on advertising campaigns, I’m not surprised a lot of you think it’s “the most” charitable whatever.
Why bother to check the facts? Seeking after truth and trying to do good for others is what leads people to Satan.
The only liar here is you. Your comment is so absurd it’s not worth responding to other than to say it’s absurd. The church does very little in terms of “loving your neighbor.” My whole life I’ve regularly heard about upcoming temple trips, home teaching, helping someone move, etc. How often have I heard about the trip to volunteer at the local soup kitchen, hospital, homeless shelter, prison, nursing home, or whatever? Not even once. Not once. As a full time missionary we were limited to 4hrs of “service” per month! It was a rule. Out of the 16 hrs x 30 days = 480 hrs we spent working, only 0.8% was allowed to be spent on something that could be considered “service.” Missionaries are supposed to spend their time selling the church, baptizing, not helping people. It is a bald faced lie to act otherwise. And we were also specifically directed to seek out specific socioeconomic demographics… married middle to upper class folks with kids at home. Since my mission I’ve served in bishoprics and ward mission leader, and it’s exactly the same. And I’ve lived in wards all over the usa as well as several overseas. There is no real service work to speak of. The closest I’ve ever seen to real service was community response in the aftermath of hurricanes Katrina and Rita. But one thing I noticed was how lazy and self absorbed people were. For instance we were more concerned about everybody wearing a yellow “mormon helping hands” shirt than actually getting our hands dirty. A huge production to organize a wor crew without much getting done after. Are we here to do some service or market the brand? I’ve observed this on many occasions. Everything is twisted into a “missionary opportunity.” I could go on and on. Everything the OP says is spot on, he’s being kind. He didn’t even scratch the surface of how misplaced our “first world” priorities are. The church launders money from all over the world to finance the lofty salaries of useless bureaucrats in Salt Lake that do little to nothing that truly improves the lives of people in the real world. What is the threefold mission of the church again? Perfect the saints, redeem the dead, preach the gospel. Love and care for your neighbor ain’t in there. We care about the tribe, not the infidels.
Actually you are wrong. Published numbers do include those things and actually are almost entirely based on them. When it comes to fast offerings that money is kept in the church. The church treats it like regular tithing, it could end up paying for BYU football coaching salaries. Read the fine print on the tithing slip. The portion that goes to the wards is distributed very stingly to local members in need, almost always with strings attached. And that’s fine, but point being, this isn’t money we spend in humanitarian sort of ways…which is why we don’t count it. When it comes to true service, we will claim to have donated some number of millions of dollars, but in truth what they did was add up “volunteer hours” spent doing who knows what and multply that by some absurd dollar value. We do the same thing with goods. Well donate crappy peanut butter that we made at the storehouse and mark it at retail value competitive with big name brands. Made by a bunch of volunteers, who aren’t professional factory workers. Takes them a lot longer, but we count their time like you would the pros. Not an honest representation of the true value. Very little is actual cash. And even then, our numbers are an embarrassment. Can you tell me the grand total of LDS humanitarian donations for the past 20 years? Now divide that by the total tithing collected. What’s the percentage? Truth is nobody knows for sure because the church doesn’t release numbers, but the estimates are about 0.5% to 1%, and that includes volunteer time counted for dollars. I’m truly disgusted to see people basking in our awesomeness given the true state of things. We don’t do service work, stop lying to yourself.
Merry Christmas, Aussie! Obviously as human beings our experiences are going to reflect our feelings. But putting that aside, that doesn’t change the facts. You can look up the statistics and figures of how much the church gives in humanitarian aid etc. that’s not my “opinion” that’s fact. The church cannot control every members’reaction to others. I have never seen anyone leave the church and their life improve: either personally, financially, or in any other way.
To anti-Mormons;) answer these questions honestly to yourself:
1.Why is it you’ve gotten addicted to pornography, especially since leaving the church?
2. Are you happy?
3.Do you have peace?
4.What is the state of your personal relationships?
5.Has your life improve since leaving the church?
6. Are you now atheist? ( generally I find this answer is “yes.”
7. Are you more negative and jaded where you once were hopeful and joyful?
8. Do you feel hate, jealousy and rage when you see others Mormon or non-Mormon that ” have it better” than you?
9. Do you drink alcohol? (Smoke pot etc) meaning why would you start doing things that the church aside, you know are bad for you?
10. Do you miss who you use to be?
Feelings of love cannot be scientifically measured, neither can thoughts be measured. Does that mean these things don’t exist? This is the arguments that anti-Mormon atheist give; if you can’t measure it it must not exist.
Copy that, ji!!🤗
I actually think Pres. Benson is one of the reasons. He said: “The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ would take the slums out of people, and then they would take themselves out of the slums.
The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature.”
I love this quote!
Well said, Brother Hawthorne! I have witnessed time and time again, individuals in the Church volunteer their time in the local prisons, communities, in addition to non-members and members alike needing any kind of assistance and they are willing to render it. The reason I fight anti Mormon ignorance is the same reasons I fight anti semitism:
Think of all the sites out there and the topics and replace with the word “Jewish” and see how it sits with you. I’m Ashkenazi and I won’t tolerate bigotry toward any race, religion or gender. I love the recent example of the Church’s statement sticking up for our Muslim brothers and sisters.
Cool icon, Jewelfox! That aside;) it’s not to impress: it’s to give the facts as they are statistically available to the author who seems to discount them. I know many individuals, bishops, stake presidents, and others who donate 100% of their time in a very humble manner where no one else really sees what they’re doing except the Lord…and the individuals and families they serve.
My husband, who is a medical doctor and I really liked your post!. It has commonsense and compassion.
Let me answer this.
Kittywaymo
I think you’re old enough to be given these answers directly, since you show a lot of ignorance to who an Anti-mormon actually is like.
1. This is an assumption that since leaving the church, I’m now “addicted” to pornography, which means I absolutely need it all the time. Nope. I think like anything normal, sometimes you have more interest in it at times than others. I think I’ve actually viewed porn (whatever form it might be) an average of 3 websites every month? To be honest, it’s more boring than anything. There’s really nothing exciting about sex when it’s regular in your own life. Even when it’s not regular, porn is just sex. Seriously. There is nothing bad about sex between two consenting, responsible adults. Just like reality TV is watching people live their lives (although we know it’s fake and scripted), it’s the same way with porn (except we know that it’s fake, scripted, and two consenting adults having sex).
2. Yes. I am. Please realize that normal healthy happiness is actually a steady up and down, but being content with your life. If you think being happy means wearing a huge smile, and feeling like you’re at Disneyland all the time, something is actually off. Be honest with yourself. Do you ACT happy? Do you change in front of other people just so they know you are happy? Do you cry a lot, feel guilty, anxious a lot, feel sad a lot? If the church was true, why would you feel bad?
3. Yes actually. Ironically I felt more peace outside the church than within it, deeper, more satisfying peace. If I had a choice, I’d leave again. I feel better outside than inside. Before you assume I wasn’t a strong member, I was 100% obedient at all times, felt the “spirit” (which btw you still have as a member who left the church-it’s called your own mind), and everyone knew I’d never leave. That changed when I found out something about the church that showed me black and white that it was a flat out lie. I was gone in 3 weeks. Never regretted it either. I went on a mission, wore garments, and held higher callings.
4. They’re okay. To be honest. I find judgemental, churchy people annoying. My Mormon friends all walked away when I left, because I was the problem apparently. Hypocrites am I right? I struggled with that the most. To know the truth about a pervasive scam and you get shunned rather than listened to. Like you. You’d rather bury your face in your hands, repeating “The church is true, the church is true” based on feelings, no evidence, than listen to what I have to say with any degree of actual interest. You are here for your own agenda. I hold no respect for people who don’t listen to solid evidence and facts. If you want to believe in feelings, go ahead, but realize you believe in invisible beings that you’ve never talked to outside of your own head.
5. Hell yes. It has. I feel more stable, happier, more content, and freer than I ever did in the church. The church you are confined to ridiculous rules than have no scientific basis. You are told to have faith, without evidence of God, except through feelings.
6. Yep. When I first left I still believed in God, just not the Mormon church (due to obvious findings). As I questioned my own beliefs and how I came to believe in God, I realized that there’s nothing solid about God. I cannot prove him, like I can air. He is no more real than Santa Claus. If God is not truly testable outside of feelings, a couple of books filled with mistakes, and people testifying of their own feelings- how is he real? Why is there more evidence for a gradual evolution (google people born with tails- Is God playing a practical joke?) than there is for a “Loving heavenly Father”? Think about it. I did, and it led me to atheism. Reality is what it is, but I’d rather be realistic than waste my time on something that isn’t real outside my own feelings.
7. Yeah. When you find out your whole life was a lie, all that energy, all that time? You’d be pissed off too. Again, you grow up. What would you do, if everyone told you Santa Claus was real all the time, had experiences of him, felt him speaking to them? That’s how it is for us who left. You guys come across as a little demented, not special.
8. ???? I assume you feel the same way. It’s normal. You honestly don’t know your religion to ask that question. You are destined to be a stay at home mom, who could easily be a polygamist wife in heaven. That’s your future. I can be anything I want, without guilt. You can’t. Think about it.
9. Yeah, as a responsible adult, I have that privilege. Alcohol isn’t special. It’s just a drink. You treat it like you would driving a car- carefully. It’s funny, the things you thought were horrible, sinful stuff as Mormons, isn’t that big of a deal. Again, we think you guys are more like children, because you think a sip of some drink is awful. Perspective. In fact, tell me, do you drink soda, eat ice cream, and other crappy processed foods? Why does God allow his people to be fat and die early?
10. Naïve? No. I don’t miss that, in fact I’m grateful I had the miracle of questioning the church for the first time in 28 years because that led to me finding out the truth about it. I’ll never regret that.
Now Questions for you
1. Why are only 0.020% of the world’s population members of God’s one true church?
2. Why did Joseph Smith have an affair with a 14 year old girl behind Emma’s back and the church doesn’t consider it adultery, when in fact that is exactly what it was? Did you know polygamy was instated soon after? Did you know that Joseph Smith secretly married other women who were currently married to their husbands?
3. Why was Joseph Smith a mason BEFORE he received the revelation of the Endowment? Why are there so many similarities, including the script? Also why did the temple ceremony change in 1990 to take out the mason penalties if God is unchanging?
4. Why did the 1978(?) revelation on blacks receiving the priesthood occur right after the church was told by a company, that they wouldn’t do business with the church because the church’s policy on black people? Was that revelation or good business strategy? Why did Brigham Young (a prophet) constantly spout incredibly racist things, that the church only recently renounced? How can we trust any prophet now if only the next decade they are wrong?
5. Why was there 10 different versions of Joseph Smith’s first vision, when the first one was only of Jesus Christ by himself (with no talk of building up a church)?
6. Why are there no records showing how your tithing is being used? Why do you only believe what you hear from the pulpit, instead of seeing actual financial records? Did you know that each Apostle has LLC’s in their own name, not only them but their wives, children, and relatives?
7. Why are the Lord’s apostles mainly white?
8. Why is there no actual evidence of the Mormon church? In fact, why is a known prank of Joseph Smith that led to The Book of Abraham, still not taken out of the scriptures?
9. Why are members not allowed to look at Anti Mormon material? Is it because it’s truly of the devil, or because the church realizes that facts win any day over a lie?
10. Did you know that Joseph Smith went to jail the final time because someone was set to reveal him as a con artist, and Joseph Smith burned that printing shop down but was caught? He died a coward, not a martyr.
11. Lastly, why don’t you know any of this?
I think it may be helpful to understand LDS_Aussie’s response to the situation he/she encountered in general context.
I have worked tangentially with a number of institutions (religious, government, academic and social services) in my country which are involved in trying to do good and in which I have seen similar responses, all of which are perfectly understandable and normal.
It usually goes like this.
1. Person A, charitably inclined and generally compassionate, is a volunteer with a local organization that is involved in good work, including compassionate work.
2. Person A encounters person B, who has come to the organization and needs a great deal of help; far more than person A has the capacity to offer simply because the needs are complex and beyond A’s knowledge, education, resources, skills or situation to be able to address.
3. Person A feels frustrated and very unhappy and generally angry at her/his inability to effectively help. That frustration and anger and unhappiness is really difficult to deal with and so (and this is normal behavior)Person A projects that frustration and unhappiness to onto the good organization in which he/she is involved, because he/she hopes that it will be able to do what Person A cannot and is afraid that it will not be able to.
4. This institution, in which Person A has invested so much work and faith and hope, does not have, on that local level, volunteers or leaders with sufficient professional, academic or social science or legal skills necessary to help Person B.
So, because the local organization does not have those resources, the A’s anger gets transferred to the parent organization.
As I said, this is a human response that I have seen in a wide variety of institutions.
LDS_Aussie’s experience was further worsened because he/she then encountered another volunteer in the organization who really doesn’t get the overarching principles of the organization and is uncharitable in his/her response. When this kind of encounter happens the emotional fallout is intense.
The solution is not to tell person A all the reasons why the organization he/she volunteers with cannot do what person B needs, or to tell person A all the things that the organization is already doing. The solution is to help A find the resources in his/her community that do have the resources person B needs so that the needed networking can start.
All of the organizations that I have worked with that are addressing major issues of poverty, mental illness, disease or social ills have situations like LDS_Aussie’s come up in their volunteer forces. And that includes the church we volunteer in.
The most effective response to the challenge of “here’s a problem that needs to be solved and I/we don’t have the resources to solve it” that I’ve seen has been the response that comes from an organization’s networking skills: knowing which other organizations in their community DO have the particular skills that you lack, and coordinating with them.
On the local church level, if your stake has a functioning public affairs council, that networking is where they come in. (On a global level, this is where LDS Charities etc. comes in.) Their network skills can help wards, branches, stakes and districts find solutions to the challenge of addressing the needs of people whose needs are beyond their own power or expertise to address and, if possible, to partner with those organizations to help implement those solutions. However, most stakes and districts I’ve lived in are small enough that stake or mission public affairs is hard to staff. So that means it’s up to the rest of us already-called-to-some-other-calling volunteers to do that research and networking.
When the volunteer can move from personal frustration, dismay and anger to personal, successful information gathering and networking to find solutions in partner or other independent organizations and then pass that information on to his/her organization’s local leaders then things get significantly better for both the volunteer and for the organization he or she volunteers with.
The networking and information gathering takes time, but it is the only potentially satisfying solution to this common challenge that I have seen work.
I’m grateful for the reasoned response of BH.
I’m hoping that this will have been a learning experience for us all, tough though it is. Whilst the original post obviously was experienced by some as inflammatory, it all depends where you are standing as to how you might perceive a situation.
We often have a christian duty to de-escalate confrontations rather than to feed them, and in fact I’ve found that to be a very important learning curve in my life as my children have made choices that I would not have chosen for them. Spouses develop and change, as do families, and we have to develop with them or face conflict and isolation.
I’m glad that some have had the time set apart in their lives to offer service, many of us don’t as we struggle with the needs of our own families, and may even face our own ill health, distress and consequent isolation.
We’re all two pay checks away from homelessness and I shudder to think what our own future holds as a family. I and my husband have chosen employment that allows us to engage with the needs of our community, at low pay. That was the only way we could find of both providing for our family and engaging with the needs we saw around us.
We both notice that as the church grows here, more and more members are making similar choices, working in the public sector and serving their community. There is more than one way of serving.
Kitty,I hope you never hear yourself accusing another of a satanic lie again. Can’t be good for your soul.Certainly not good for theirs.
I do think that if our missionaries had been known for public service throughout the world, the church would have grown more swiftly. But hey, not my call.
The banner picture made me homesick for Indonesia. It is common there didn’t realize it was used in Australia as well.
Hawkgrrrl: I think Pres. Benson’s quote is one of the main reasons our church has not developed outreach programs for the poor in local communities. We use that quote to console ourselves in times of self-doubt: “should we more directly be helping the poor? of course not; we’re saving people spiritually which is much better than handing a man a fish. Besides, that Benson quote says once we give them the Gospel they’ll pull themselves up by their own bootstraps” types of responses.
What is missed is that the temporal is the spiritual. I’m with Aussie that I wish we would direct more efforts into temporal service and less into tracting. And yes, it is the organization’s decisions from the top of what to focus the efforts on. They could change it. They choose not to. It’s frustrating.
Does anyone else have Justserve.org in their area? That is a major outreach effort to encourage involvement in the community.
One of the things about LDS Humanitarian Services overseas is that they will donate and partner with respected groups rather than developing their own infrastructure. So they work with AMAR in providing assistance to Syrian refugees, donated to WHO on measles eradication, made Atmit that was distributed by Catholic Relief Services–indeed there have been years when our church was the top contributor to CRS.
Which may make it hard to see and quantify the work being done. I do not find Howard’s claims to be accurate.
A bishop is assigned to all the people within ward boundaries whether or not they are members of our denomination. I could tell various stories that were positive.
I am not denying the reality of incidents such as the OP reported but sometimes we do step up.
Let’s face it! We will never know what the church’s charitable efforts are in reality when they refuse to disclose what spending corresponds to members’ tithing, bequeathing and fast offerings, etc.
They can claim anything and we have no way of verifying what was actually spend and what might have been more self-serving and/or promotional and what genuine acts of Samaritan-like giving. I guess this way anyone can satisfy themselves of whatever they wish to believe but the fact remains that tremendous amounts of members’ money, good wishes and hope flow into the church and it’s hard to see charitable projects and works of a similar scale coming out.
A new year is coming. One I bet we all hope will be better than the last few years. Might as well start them off by being honest with ourselves whether or not the church chooses to be honest with us.
Kittywaymo, thank you for exposing everyone here to the long-forgotten holiday tradition of unintentional comedy. You are truly a delight. Please don’t stop commenting.
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