Some recent statistical analysis (which has huge problems as it is grossly in accurate for dates before 1970 or so since activity rates increased between 1960 and 1973) reveals that the trend of increasing inactivity started in the 1980s — long before general access to the internet or similar matters that are trendy to associate with the growth of inactives.
Which leads to the question — what happened?
The moment you take the analysis past recent navel gazing, you need to ask yourself what happened about 1980 or so? That is when the changes started, so what happened then that was different?
The answer is two things:
- The effort to create a permanent rotating curriculum.
- The effort to separate Church from Community.
The effort to create a permanent rotating curriculum has gone through a number of iterations, but around 1980 or so, they started rolling out manuals that were to last forever. Those priesthood/relief society manuals did not, but we have had the rotating four year scripture study program going a long time. The current priesthood/relief society manuals, while they focus on different prophets, are attempts to derive the same core values and messages from each of them, more or less — a stated goal of correlation.
This leads to boredom.
Think how many people read the material for Sunday School class. There are many excellent instructors, but how often do they just go through the motions pretending to teach material that people pretend to already know?
The other thing that happened is that the Church made an effort to withdraw from creating community and to encourage those same members to instead take the time that was freed up to participate in their communities outside of the Church. Most wards have vastly reduced social activities and connections from what congregations had in the 1970s. We have a consolidated meeting schedule. We no longer have as many meetings during the week and we have far, far fewer social activities. This creates the result that we are no longer socially connected to each other. Not only are Mormons ceasing to be an ethnic group, in many cases we are ceasing to be friends.
— we aren’t friends any more.
The result is that people are bored with Church and lack the social rewards of participating in social activities.
This means that we are much more separated by political differences, the progressives from the traditionalists, because those political and social differences are more key to our identity than our membership in the Church. Those communities are where our social hearts lie.
As for doctrine, our doctrinal hearts are so simplified that they lack meaning to many beyond a core that can be found almost anywhere.
— ??
I don’t have a solution. However, it is important to realize what the problem is not and what is causing inactivity rather than what happens that is symptom of the causes. Most of the things we think of as causes are symptoms of the loss of community and the feeling that rather than progressing in learning and understanding (progressing from milk to meat, so to speak) we are only recycling used milk.
Until we reverse that, we are creating an environment that for many offers less and less every year.
What do you think?
Wheat & Tares 
This is most interesting and your attempts at the underlying do seem to have some merit.
I have heard many long-timers say that they don’t feel the community that they used to (i.e. roadshows are gone, sports teams that spanned even regions are now reduced to 1 early Saturday morning, and the dreadful “EVERY meeting/activity must have a gospel purpose”)
The other one that over the last few years is what I have heard called, “Christ-centered boredom.” That sure is how I feel. Sacrament meeting is a crap shoot. Sometimes a GREAT talk, sometimes meh. But then when we breakup into Gospel Doctrine and Priesthood/RS – bring out the no-doze. I looked around in priesthood the last week and 6 out of 10 folks were snoozing. The teacher was one of the better ones. I have to brag that I was prepared. I had oil in my lamp (that is a 20 oz Dr Pepper just before going to church).
The only times I find any of these classes interesting is when they go “off script”. We are not (all) vegetarians. We need some meat!
The other angle you have to consider is the non-church options available to the saints. Members don’t leave activity for nothing. They leave because they’ve found something they think is better. Perhaps the best solutions lie in looking at what formerly-active members are spending their time on and see if any of that would fit without our church doctrine and culture.
Steve – great information. Could you please indicate a reference for these figures…
Church does not need to be a show or a spectacular for me, but it needs to be far more interesting than what it is. Every piece of instruction is didactic, orally presented, with little to no discussion (or real discussion). I’m an educator and if I presented like that every time, I’d have a riot…and rightfully so…
We seem so stuck on delivering information. Like we will go inactive without it. That doesn’t seem to be the case. I did a post earlier in the year on being over instructed and under converted. It seems in part that this is the message here too….
Yes, the data doesn’t lie and really does need to be addressed. With the benefit of hindsight (and accepting the fact that Correlation and the boring lesson cycle is to blame, at least in part) we might say this of the decision makers that put these changes into motion: They thought we were a church, but discovered that we are a community. Being a church is just not enough for a chunk of the membership, it seems.
Of course, there is always more to the story, and there are certainly cultural and social developments in general that have nothing to do with the Church that are part of the explanation. But the sudden change in the secular trend in activity rates seems to be real and deserves an explanation.
I’m certainly no fan of correlation. Having said that, there are benefits, and people outside the faith will tell you that. A few weeks ago, Ram Cnaan spoke at the Black, White, and Mormon conference.
Michael Quinn has also said in my Benefits of Correlation post.
Those things can’t be ignored either.
Most illuminating!
Can’t help but wonder what effect the closeting of financial information had. I know there were financial reports given in at GC up to the 60s or so but I wonder if some dissatisfaction about that took some time to develop.
I wish there were some information about when the church became a giant real estate/investment corporation. I think the church as lost more than a little of its soul over that.
This in my opinion only, but we are pushed to baptize someone as fast as we can. Two weeks after baptism they disappear. Five years latter they just another name on hometeaching list.
When you insist on teaching the “idea” family, you marginalize everyone that doesn’t fit. I think that goes to the lack of community. If you don’t feel like you belong (and you are getting bored with the same lessons over and over), its a real struggle to keep going.
I was recently released from an incredible 22 year run of teaching Sunday School (two wards, 10 years with the 12-13 year olds and 12 years with the adults). I gave up on the manuals after 5 or 6 years. My approach became this: see what the point of the scheduled lesson is and build my own. Initially I stayed pretty close to the topic, but I slowly started expanding. As you can imagine, the research I did for my lessons took me to many of the difficult aspects of the church that we’re just now starting to grapple with as a group. I was fortunate that I had the venue to grapple with them publicly, in what I consider an appropriate way. My classes became a real hotbed of discussion. Without question some people were uncomfortable and would go to another class. Periodically I’d get reported to the authorities, so the Bishop or a member of the stake presidency would show up and end up eagerly participating.
Last week I subbed for a class and the topic I framed was “How I support the church’s definition of marriage, while simultaneously supporting civil gay marriage, and here’s what I’m doing to further both causes.” There were 3 high council members present along with the bishop. It was a fantastic discussion.
I see a real hunger for this kind of forum. I’m really not that good of a teacher, if I can be honest, but when folks are encouraged to engage in faithful discussion, exploring those topics that we all scratch our heads about in private, it’s magical. The lesson just happens, and the teacher more or less stands there and points to people as they raise their hands, and periodically ask a provocative question like: “I think you have a different take on this. Tell us what’s going thru your head.”
MH 👍👍
HDP 👍👍
I don’t have solutions and I see a lot of value to correlation. In addition, the manuals keep telling those who teach to facilitate discussion and not to drone.
I wish we had more consistent implementation.
Simple: more members are converts. I bet the decreasing rate in activity is inversely proportional the increasing percentage of the membership that is first-generation.
1. For most people, Mormonism is a net drag over time. It’s difficult to make rewarding.
2. It is easier for converts to leave. They’re not indoctrinated from birth. They don’t face the same guilt over pain to extended family; indeed, they may be pleasing extended family by leaving. They know that it’s possible to have a social life outside the church.
3. So, as converts became a greater and greater percentage of the overall membership, overall activity declined.
I agree with other Joel. The 80s were really the hey-day for international growth, with the Church taking off in Mexico, Brazil, Chile, the Philippines, and elsewhere. You had a ton of missionaries (children of the baby boomers), and all young men were expected to serve a mission.
As the Church grew more in the developing world, activity rates went down. I bet if you looked at activity rates only in the US, you wouldn’t see the same decline starting in the 80s, but instead starting later.
I absolutely agree that these two things have definitely impacted the Church socially. I believe the elimination of the ward activity committee to be of two significant mistakes in policy. The other, if anyone is interested, is the elimination of the wars welfare committee and using the ward council in its stead. Too many units have ward councils that are too immature to effectively deal with welfare issues.
Sorry for my typos.
Ditto to what the Joels said. Also, missionary practices during the 80s and 90s were not always ideal. After I received my mission call to Ecuador in the mid-90s, I talked to a number of returned missionaries who bragged that this particular mission was the highest baptizing mission in the world. When I got to my first area and requested a branch membership list, I was appalled to find out that activity rates were only 5%, and that the majority of the inactive members were actually children and teenagers. I suspect that these “convert” baptisms were encouraged by the leaders who were there before my mission president.
I agree with jc. I had callings (almost continuously) from 1980 through 2011 that put me in bishopric, ward council, and welfare meeting, etc. every week. Trying to adequately discuss people’s “welfare” issues in Ward Council is a non-starter. The FTMs are there, the SS Pres, the Employment Specialist, etc are all there. Everyone is reluctant to get into personal things. Those issues are best handled in a PEC meeting that includes the RS Pres.
As for the Activities Committee, the church made a really dumb move there. First, the quorum and auxiliary leaders have plenty to do without having to plan and carry out a Trunk or Treat, a Ward Christmas Dinner, a Ward Campout–or whatever. Beyond that, the activities committee became a repository of experience and “intellectual capital.” They learned how to plan and set these events up, they knew where to buy supplies cheap, they knew where the leftover supplies (paper plates…) were hidden, etc.
Beyond these logistical issues, I have long decried the ongoing move (again, recently) to more reverence and spirituality at the expense of building a sense of community. IMO the community and friendship a ward can develop is the primary value of being organized into a ward!(and I mean, above the importance of the sacrament, feeling the spirit–a whole other discussion, or reverence) In our ward the guy conducting Sac Mtg now stands at the podium for 5 minutes before start time, while the prelude music is playing, and we are expected to stop talking to our friends and sit “reverently” and feel the “spirit.” In Stake Conference recently one of the SP reminded us to shut up and sit down during this time. I have been in wards at both ends of a friendly—reverent continuum. The friendly wards did better at everything: attendance, HT/VT, quality of testimonies born, talks given, etc. I am in a ward now where there are an average of 8 families moving in, and about 6 moving out, every month, yet the new families’ records are not read in, ever, they get no formal welcome to the ward–and an opportunity for the rest of us to see who they are and get the chance to personally welcome them…friendship/community-building opportunity wasted.
More social activities, at the ward, quorum, and auxiliary levels are needed to aid in gaining and maintaining wide-spread feelings of community.
And, to end my rant: The lessons and the talks are almost universally boring, repetitive, and lacking in any useful/interesting content. We might as well do om chants and spin prayer wheels.
Stephen, the graphs are interesting but where did they come from?
It’s nigh impossible to assign cause to effect, especially with so little data.
If you really want to stretch it, you can blame it on a certain revelation from 1978. People now use the ordination of women in other churches to point to as a reason for their falling numbers; how is it different from our 1978?
Note: I emphatically -do not- believe the 1978 revelation was anything but a good thing, and I wish it had come sooner, but when trying to match statistics, you can’t just throw out uncomfortable facts.
As I’ve noted the graphic comes from an essay that is wrong for the period of 1960 to 1974.
It was floating around Facebook.
The point of the essay was that more people are going inactive than thought, less leaving the church. And overall growth was continuing.
I had also been thinking of “litany” statements where people are bearing their testimony so to speak but more of how they are a progressive. If they miss a part of the parade of issues they will often speak up just to add it in.
Sorry I can’t find the link.
BTW this just came out: http://freakonomics.com/2015/10/29/am-i-boring-you-a-new-freakonomics-radio-episode/
Interesting observations Stephen! The path to eventual extinction.
Douglas Davies, the sociologist who wrote the book “The Mormon Culture of Salvation” mentioned that religion normally fills two purposes in people’s lives:
1. community
2. ideas that help them cope with their lives.
When the Church doesn’t meet these needs for people, they leave.
If your family life follows the “happy path” expected in Mormonism, the things you hear at church help you cope with your life. But if you are LGBT, single, childless, divorced, or have experienced an abusive family, the things you hear at church often send the message that your life is wrong–despite the fact that you have followed the gospel to the best of your ability. Sometimes for these people, being LDS makes it HARDER to cope with your life, and so they’re better off elsewhere.
I am very skeptical of the data. I can’t believe that in the 1960s activity rates were 60 to 80% (I was there!). Maybe in Utah, but not in the eastern US, where I lived.
Deciding activity rates is very tricky at best, and presumably the measuring method has changed over time.
The 1970s were a time of increasing missionaries and converts worldwide, and as others have noted, converts are more likely to become inactive than people born in the church. These converts are spread far apart, and it’s very hard to stay active with a small branch. People get burned out quickly and feel a pull to return to their former culture.
I doubt that the change in curriculum had much effect on activity rates. I’m hesitant to blame lack of community either. Blame changing attitudes about religion in all of Western culture if you like.
Worldwide growth is a great thing of course, but I suspect it comes at a cost of declining activity rates.
Jenny’s right – you can’t ignore changing attitudes toward organized religion in Western culture (rise of the “nones” and all that). This is a link to another graph showing a similar decline in religiosity in the United States for the past 61 years:
http://tobingrant.religionnews.com/2014/08/05/the-great-decline-61-years-of-religion-religiosity-in-one-graph-2013-hits-a-new-low/
Interfaith marriages are up from 20% before the 1960s to 45% in the early 2000s according to a 2013 NY Times article. Most religions are losing the tight-knit social connections that existed in the past.
And it’s not just religion. Fraternal and veterans associations have seen a steep decline in membership from the 1980s. To quote a pertinent 2014 article:
“Elks have lost 35 percent of their members since 1980, when it peaked at 1.6 million, and there are now about half as many Shriners and Masons today as 25 years ago. The Loyal Order of the Moose has lost about a third of its membership since 1980. Some smaller groups, such as Odd Fellows and Red Men, have all but disappeared.
“AM New York considered some of the reasons behind the decline in the groups. Younger generations are more likely to network online than in club headquarters, while longer commutes and work days leave people with less time for organizations.
“Also, many aspects of the old ‘invitation’-based groups seem stuffy or unappealing to many younger people,” the story said. But it added that “the main culprit in their demise is a dramatic shift from collectivist to individualist values and thinking.”
Scott Thumma, a sociology professor at The Hartford Institute in Connecticut, suggested people are “simply less interested in being members of organizations in which their own individual needs are not paramount.”
They may not be the whole answer, but why do we have to have boring lessons and sacrament meetings?
Surely correlation needent mean boring meetings. I like HDP@9 ideas.
I would like to loose the RS/P!HOOD manuals. Sacrament talks could be whatever a person wants to speak about instead of either thamed, or a report on a conference talk. Follow HDP for SS.
We can remain reasonably correlated, and be more interesting too surely.
Jenny:
“I am very skeptical of the data. I can’t believe that in the 1960s activity rates were 60 to 80% (I was there!). ”
The data for those dates is wrong. Which makes me question other data. But there has been growing inactivity as of late.
Mary Ann —
“Jenny’s right – you can’t ignore changing attitudes toward organized religion in Western culture (rise of the “nones” and all that). This is a link to another graph showing a similar decline in religiosity in the United States for the past 61 years:
http://tobingrant.religionnews.com/2014/08/05/the-great-decline-61-years-of-religion-religiosity-in-one-graph-2013-hits-a-new-low/
Interfaith marriages are up from 20% before the 1960s to 45% in the early 2000s according to a 2013 NY Times article. Most religions are losing the tight-knit social connections that existed in the past.
And it’s not just religion. Fraternal and veterans associations have seen a steep decline in membership from the 1980s”
That may well be it.
I don’t have solutions nor do I have any proof that any particular correlation = causation (couldn’t resist bringing that in the way correlation in its other meaning has been cropping up).
But it turns out that the Internet, Bloggernacle, etc. are pretty much meaningless in all of this in terms of activity, etc.
I agree that the practices implemented have seemed to impact the social aspect of the Church. There isn’t a real sense of ward community like there was decades ago. I think two major mistakes made Church policy are the elimination of the ward activity committee and welfare committee. Many ward councils are lacking in matters these two former committees attended to.
Cable TV and its successors e.g. Netflix….
According to a talk in April of 1978 by Pres. Benson,
“When I first came into the Council of the Twelve in 1943, I said, the average attendance at sacrament meeting—our Sunday preaching service—was about 20 percent. Today worldwide attendance is about 41 percent. Youth attendance is 46 percent, and attendance in the Primary—our young children—is 67 percent. The growth, progress, and increased spirituality of the members of the Church is not just accidental, I said to them. It is the result of a rich program based on eternal truth.”
I don’t know if it’s changed much since 1978 but 20 percent is something else.
Maybe someone here could take on this newly posted job and be the change!
Applied Social Science Position Full-time Researcher
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Salt Lake City, Utah
Research Information Division
Under the direction of the General Authorities, we provide timely, relevant, and reliable research information. At their request, we help identify needs, analyze problems, and suggest solutions. The issues we address are interesting, challenging, and wide-ranging in scope. For example, we study and consult on basic religious processes, evaluate Church programs and products, and monitor key trends.
We work in a dynamic, team-oriented environment and are looking for bright, talented, energetic people to join us. Our division includes research professionals from a variety of social science disciplines. Each individual is expected to participate in research, scholarship, team leadership, and consulting.
General Qualifications
Education
Master’s or PhD degree in the social/behavioral sciences
Work Experience
5+ years professional work experience preferred, but will consider those with 2-5 years (includes graduate assistantships)
We have a particular interest in those with experience in one or more of the following areas: demography; database management; advanced statistics; conceptual and theoretical frameworks
Other Requirements
Ability to work under pressure on multiple projects
Occasional travel
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and currently temple worthy
Specific Qualifications
This position involves all phases of applied research from conceptualizing information needs to consulting on use of information. Candidates must have demonstrated ability in and/or potential to:
Research Produce quality information using appropriate research methods (qualitative and quantitative) and communicate findings through written reports and oral presentations
Scholarship Develop models and other products to explain complex ideas
Leadership Participate in/direct multi-disciplinary teams—strong interpersonal skills
Consulting Consult with clients to help answer important questions and address organizational challenges
Turn page over for information on start date, salary, and how to apply.
Start Date
Preferred January 2016 or as negotiated, depending on candidate availability
Salary
Commensurate with qualifications and experience
Includes attractive benefits package (e.g. health insurance, group life insurance plan, employer-matched savings plan, retirement plan)
Relocation reimbursement may be available
Application
Apply on-line: http://www.LDS.jobs. Click on the “Advanced Search” link and enter the job reference ID number 134938 in the “Job Opening ID” field after signing in.
Please include in your on-line application a letter of introduction describing your qualifications and what you feel you would contribute to this work.
For full consideration apply before November 15, 2015.
Questions about this position can be directed to:
Dr. Gary Walton, Search Committee Chair, waltongr@ldschurch.org
@anita
Sounds like something maybe John Dehlin would be good at.
Master’s or PhD degree in the social/behavioral sciences – Check
5+ years professional work experience preferred – Check
experience in: database management – well he worked for Microsoft
experience in: advanced statistics, conceptual and theoretical frameworks: See “why people leave the church”
Ability to work under pressure on multiple projects – Ran Mormon Stories while working on PHD and simultaneously help on creating Mormon Matters, Mormon Mental Health, and worked to create post-Mormon communities, …
Currently temple worthy – Not sure on this one.
Demonstrated ability Research Produce quality information using appropriate research methods (qualitative and quantitative) and communicate findings through written reports and oral presentations – See “why people leave the church” and I think he has done a few oral presentations (see Mormon Stories and his TED talk)
Leadership Participate in/direct multi-disciplinary teams—strong interpersonal skills: At first blush – check
Consult with clients to help answer important questions and address organizational challenges – Remover “organizational” and you have his current job.
Am I being sarcastic: Check
We can yammer all night about what happened. What interests me more is what to do about it.
I would suggest that we realize that in the US and probably elsewhere outside of the least developed countries religion has become like a consumer product and we are in direct market competition with other churches. The descendants of Utah pioneers may disagree and it is among them that we remain strong. We all want to cling to exclusivity to a degree and pretend that by definition we are better than anyone else. But that is not helpful and not accurate either.
At the same time that we began our decline, already a religious movement of tremendous power and momentum was exploding across America. The rise of evangelicalism. It swept Carter +/- (a Baptist sunday school teacher who campaigned on restoring integrity), definitely Reagan and then Bush I (coat tails) into the white house. Clinton danced with it and Bush II had little else going for him in his squeaker elections. It might have crested with the close elections of Bush II and not as close elections of Obama but it continues to have tremendous influence in one party and across the land.
As an aside, my wife is part of it. She had a born-again experience in 1988 when we were in the military living in the South. She tried to make Mormonism work within that framework for about 15-20 yrs but she now attends a conservative evangelical church. We have made a compromise, she goes to Sacrament meeting with me and I go to an evangelical church with her. For nearly a decade now I have the unique experience of comparing the worship service of the two faiths up close every week. It is not a comforting comparison.
I am not recommending that we follow them lock step but it is useful to see what they are doing that works and whether it is consistent with our fundamental values and beliefs. Here are some ideas based on my experiences;
1. We need to become undeniably and boldly Christ-centered. If we claim to be the CJCLDS this needs to be at least as obvious as it is in a typical evangelical church. Otherwise we should change our name to the church of the succesors of Joseph Smith or some other such nonsense. I have attended no ward service in many years that even becomes close to what I see often in evangelical churches. The biggest distraction to doing this is the worship of the institution of the church and the celebrity general authorities, more especially our founder.
2. Better music. How we do this has many possibilities but it might include better use of contemporary technology, a greater variety of instruments and borrowing songs extensively from others. We need to foster a culture in the wards of creating beautiful fresh music and this might include local music schools for children and youth. Last week the vocalist at the evangelical church shared a beautiful and powerful hymn that he wrote himself last summer. The constant fresh infusion of moving music adds tremendously to the service.
3. Better prayers. Seriously, our prayers sound like vain repetitions of strings of worn out cliches. One step, instead of writing names of people and putting them in a box in the temple, we could write a little detailed summary of our problem and the person giving the prayer could pray about that problem specifically. Public praying like public speaking benefits from thoughtful preparation and we don’t pay the price.
4. Better talks and sermons. Of course a professional public speaker with 20-30 hours of preparation time every week delivers consistently better sermons than a lay person is capable of doing. If we want to teach one another instead of hiring a trained preacher, we need to take this responsibilty much more seriously.
5. Better youth programs. Most of our wards are too small to have critical mass of youth for the activities they crave and need. My children were drawn into the youth activities of other churches constantly and these activities were better than ours and completely consistent with our teachings. The activities need to be appealing to a wide range of youth in the community not slap-downs and guilt-fests directed at making the devote even more devoted.
6. Preschools are one of the practical keys to growing churches. People go through a life cycle that includes maybe church as children and church activities as youth, often drifting or disaffection or unaffiliation as young adults, followed by marriage and children. That is when young families start looking for community to teach their children values and consider returning to church. Initially it is not for religious reasons, but as a benefit to their children. That is why many growing evangelical churchs report 50-75% of their new converts come out of their pre-school ministery.
7. Better community service. We do quite a bit of service but most of it benefits ourselves. I have seem some efforts to improve in this area but you have to get to really know an evangelical church to see just how much more serious they take this responsibility. Too much of our energy is drained in frustrating and mostly ineffective programs like home teaching and janitorial work.
8. Untimately the most difficult task of a church is dealing with death. Our temple work is effective for some but not for others. Too few people can or will comply with the requirements to attend the temple. We could do a better job preparing more of our senior members for this final event and supporting their families, especially the ones who are not totally in the mainstream. A culture surrounding death in the 19th century did a better job of it than we do now but we will need to move forward not go back to their practices.
9. People can and will leave one evangelical church and attend another for what we would consider minor reasons. The fact that evangelicals have choices drives the pursuit of excellence in every congregation and the demise of crappy churches instead of our mentality that we must endure to the bitter end. We need to give our people more choices within the faith and have a mechanism in place to eliminate dysfunctional wards and leaders more quickly.
No one size that fits all.
Yes, it might help to bring back old-time fun stuff to make the village experience richer (e.g., roadshows, sports).
At the same time, I’d also make Mormonism more hospitable to introverts. Many regard the extra activities exhausting and consuming. I, for one, envy my Catholic friends who can just attend mass in near anonymity. We should make people aware that it is an option to simply attend quietly. In other words, I wonder if there are people who don’t attend at all because they don’t want a calling or an Elks Lodge.
Mike in GA,
Thanks for taking the time to enumerate these. They ring true to me. I live in the south(ish) and have WONDERFUL evangelical families all around and I agree that I clearly see some of them smoking us on being Christ-like in some areas.
Oh how I wish the church had a “suggestion box” that we could stuff with great suggestions like these.
Mike in GA,
Good job detailing some differences with one of the few other successful movements around. I will comment on some:
#1 There is broader definition of preaching Christ in our wards. I agree that sometimes we go to far off base, especially in sacrament meeting.
#5. Agreed. This is another fallout in the past 20-30 years due to smaller wards and fewer large families at church. There are fewer youth and the programs can struggle.
#6. I have seen pre-school groups with mostly LDS members. One drawback of corporate policies is that many never meet at the local church building. Once a week at the ward building would be great.
#9. I have talked to several converts from other Christian services and this is seen as a strength. There is no competition among wards or bishops, etc. The wards are divided when they get big enough, not due to internal divisions. The quick fix of a bad ward or bishop is an issue. If your bishop seems less inspired, go volunteer to the Stake President.
“Why are people going inactive?” Well…why don’t you ask one of your inactive friends why they left? Nearly every comment I read on this thread provides anecdotes and possible reasons, but until you ASK people why they left you will not know. The answer you get will run the gamut depending on the person, but rest assured – many of them will surprise you.
I have been inactive for over 9 years, but I still keep close tabs on the church b/c my wife and some of my children are still in. So why did I leave? The reason I left is not the same one for staying away. My original reason was b/c the church history was so bad and nobody – and I mean NOBODY – wanted to deal with it. In my ward and stake, the truth didn’t matter, obedience and enduring to the end was what counted. I don’t work that way. But I learned to somewhat come to terms with a lot of the bad history.
The reason I stayed away is b/c I did a LOT of independent study on my own, especially in early Christian history. What I found was so very different than the type of Christianity we have today. Actually, any Christian tradition today is only a shell of what it looked like in the first several centuries.
Finally, the church looks very different to what Joseph Smith set up. It looks and acts more like a corporation than a church. Going to church is almost like going to work. GAs no longer appeared as prophets, seers, and revelators to my eyes and ears. Instead, they act like a board of directors. They still do.
I’ve been gone now for going on 10 years and very little about the way the church runs has changed. There won’t be any changes either until the members demand it.
I know my comments are uncomfortable for many of you, but I am only speaking from my own experience. Mormon people are some of the best people I know. I miss some aspects of the church, but there’s a lot I don’t miss too.
Good luck to all of you.
The church needs Applied Social Scientists to guide it because it is no longer prophetic. It sells a remarkably consistent corrolated global gospel product that sizzles, smells and tastes like a cardboard McDonalds meal created by an “inspired” Q15 subcommittee instead of being directed by God through his Prophet. It has all the outward appeal of and in many cases even the appearance of a large bank. From this core problem all other problems flow!
Great article. Church is mind numbingly boring. There were maybe 2 Sundays a year where I felt like I got something useful or inspiring from church. I think that most go just because they “have to” rather than because they really want to.
The church is all milk and NO meat! The Church says that they don’t give the members meat because they don’t want to give a child meat who is not ready because they will choke and die. Conversely if you give an adult nothing but milk they will be malnurished and die. That is what we are seeing in the church, nothing but milk, and the reason why is because there are so many land mines the church has to avoid and hide from (Polygamy, Adam God, Book of Abraham, How the BOM was actually “translated”, blacks and women in the priesthood, how the temple ceremony is ripped off from masonry, etc) so they keep it simple, and tell the members this is all they need when in actually they are starving for some protein.
I don’t agree that social scientists guide the Church. I think as the job posting says, they make suggestions i.e “study it out in their mind” and tell the brethren what is going on and possible solutions. The brethren then do something with that information or not. Then they take a decision to God and ask for guidance on the matter
whizzbang,
Do you think God needs the help of Applied Social Scientists to make his church thrive? Do you think a Prophet of God acting as a Prophet does?
Joseph founded the church, who were his Applied Social Scientists?
Reply to #35 El oso.
“broader definition of preaching Christ in our wards.”
I don’t want to be rude or discount your opinions, but to me this one seemed to be a dodge and I cannot let it pass without rebuttal. Perhaps I don’t understand it. I don’t buy it at this point.
My wife is an 8th generation Mormon from the network of old Utah pioneer families from which many of the church leaders descended. We had 2 apostle relatives drop by our temple wedding reception. She is soaked in Mormonism. She graduated from the University of Utah with a degree in Computer Science and Mathematics and won awards that if I named them I might as well name and out her. She programmed for NASA for a few years and received national recognition for her work. She is intelligent. She was less than 25 years old and the relief society president and also teaching early morning seminary when she had her born-again experience. She was also the unofficial EQ secretary (my calling -but she was doing most of it) even after I was later called to be the EQP. She is willing to serve.
She has been the leader of almost every volunteer organization in the community. My children are both similarly extremely accomplished as are many of her relatives. To see the talent and intelligence and compassion the Lord blessed this family with almost makes me believe that there might be a genetic reason for the nepotism in church leadership.
I just cannot ascribe her conversion to fundamentally missing something broad and subtle on the key issue. For years before, she attended a Protestant service once or twice a year to get her “Jesus fix.” She left the LDS faith because she “starved to death spiritually” (her words.
***
Some examples of battles lost:
1. A younger member of the bishopric agreed with me that our testimony meetings were seldom about Christ. He convinced the rest of the bishopric that there was at least room for improvement. For over a year the bishopric instructed people at the beginning of the meeting to share their testimony OF CHRIST. Few complied.
We cooked up an object lesson. Right after my friend, the younger member of the bishopric sternly warned the congregation that this month there would be serious consequences for testimonies that did not center on Christ, I immediately jumped up. I began a long-winded ramble about the sacredness of cleaning the church and the beauty of the landscaping. He is somewhat bigger and younger than me. After about 5 minutes of what would usually pass as nothing out of the ordinary, he grabbed me around the neck and dragged me out of the meeting to the astonishment of the audience. He returned and warned the congregation that if there were any more testimonies that were not about Christ he would take similar action. There was about 5 minutes of silence and then a couple of people ventured forth speaking only of Christ. Finally some old patriarchal buffalo with a thick church resume felt compelled by the spirit to stand and rebuke the young bishopric counselor for exercising unrighteous dominion over me (it was my idea) and mocking the spirit of testimony meeting. We just sat there astonished. This stunt had no impact in following months.
I propose an experiment (which I have conducted many times and shared results with ward leadership). Keep a list of the testimonies given tomorrow and grade them.
Grade A. Boldly centered on Christ as their Savior.
Grade B. A significant part of the testimony includes Christ.
Grade C. Mentions Christ but only in passing.
Grade D. No mention except ritualistically, in the name of … (broad definition)
Evaluate the results for yourself. It is not a contest which church gets the highest grade. It is about whether your ward has a proper emphasis or needs to improve. My ward and every ward I have ever attended for testimony meeting collectively fails this test for me, with a few individual testimonies as exceptions.
2. As the new primary chorister my wife wanted to sing more songs about Jesus out of the official primary song book. Other people in the primary leadership wanted to sing more songs about prophets. She was polite and tried to work with them but soon the curriculum of exactly which songs the primary sang was being dictated to them from the bishop including none about Christ to which she did not comply perfectly. They released her.
3. When my wife was only attending about once a month and my daughter was in high school, the bishop must have forgotten about her issues (even though she had discussed them with him many times). In probable desperation the bishop asked my wife to be in charge of YW summer camp. She was delighted and said she could try to get Ravi Zacharias and/or Michael Youssef, a couple of her friends (who at the time would consult with her when questions about Mormons came to their attention) to speak or give a seminar. (Ravi preached at the SLC tabernacle about 10 years ago, not saying nothing about how that happened.) What my wife proposed our ward girl’s summer camp needed was a good old-fashion revival, a literal Come-To-Jesus experience, in a Mormon context. The bishop sheepishly said, I forgot about, ah (pause) … and withdrew the offer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
https://www.ltw.org/en/web/guest/about-us/dr.-michael-youssef?prefCountryId=US
4. My young adult children would never just sit there and listen to general conference but if they were playing a game, it was amazing how they didn’t miss a thing. (Especially if part of the game was that if I could come up with something they missed, the game was over). During the recent talks given by the three new apostles, my wife and children were playing some German card game too complex for me. They had little to say while the new apostles spoke. Then Elder Claudio Costa gave his humble Christ-centered talk. My wife remarked she thought they missed the boat and should have called him. (She knows nothing else about him except this one talk).
My son quietly admitted to losing a little bet with a friend as to whom the three new apostles might be and he had Elder Costa first on his list, based on previous talks and longevity of service in the 70s and his ethnic background. I am not trying to cause any trouble between the brethren, it is their decision whom to call. But the contrast in the talks was jarring to my wife and there is no reason the new apostles could not have given talks more boldly centered on Christ. (If any moles read this, I challenge them to relay to the 3 new apostles to prove boldly and clearly to those like my wife that they are at least in word, capable of bearing unmistakable testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior).
***
Also, are you sincere in recommending that I volunteer to be the bishop? I make a lot of snarky comments. This one cracks me up. With a wife who would not support me, with a job that requires 2 weekends a month, with no calling in 8 years and 2 former bishops who had me on the no teaching calling list…. We all have our list of excuses and I would love to shake this ward up and they all know it. But really???
I think at this point my radical efforts are better confined to blogs where I do less damage to those weak in irony and paradox. Let real leaders pick and choose from the best of the ideas of many people.
In Joseph’s time, the church was small enough that most members had access to him or other church leaders to air their grievances (and few people had a problem with giving church leaders a piece of their mind). In a worldwide church, we have to go through so many levels to get messages back up to church leaders. Then you have the GAs who are of the opinion that their job is to represent church leadership to the people, not to represent the people to church leadership. If you have a good GA who is trying to get a better feel for what is happening at ground level (Elder Renlund learning French to better communicate with African leaders outside South Africa comes to mind), they will still be hampered by church culture. Many people still have an idealized view of church leaders, which will affect how they present themselves and the members under their jurisdiction. Also, leaders of wards and stakes are typically people who generally find the system working well. In order to get the best results, you need a capable leader who both understands the system’s strength and weaknesses. This requires a certain amount of experience and awareness of different member experiences in their area. That leader also needs to not be intimidated by visiting church authorities, and have confidence to point out real concerns. You also need the visiting general authority to have the wisdom to trust the local leadership in their assessments, and then not be intimidated themselves by taking real issues to church HQ. The likelihood of all these factors coming together often is slim.
I understand that church HQ is using these statistical methods to better gauge what is happening at ground level. It’s uncomfortable that church initiatives are being formed in large part by the data collected (thinking of the Sabbath day push). Here in Salt Lake you do have “normal” people with access to church general leaders, but their views are not reflective of those worldwide.
I thought of something else. Indulge me.
brother of Bared (#36) left the LDS faith because of perceptions of church history. That history is impossible to change (and he is hardly alone). My wife is now a member in name only because we, the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS could not convince a loyal 8th generation member that we are who we say we are when it comes to Christ. That seems fixable, eh?
Duck and dodge the history questions, we have no good options.
As to the Christ issue, why not face it and fix it?
Awe, so the church fell victim to it’s own success and God is inexperienced in dealing with a hierarchy this size? Nice apologetic Mary Ann!
Listen to Elder Bednar explain to our youth how to tell the difference between listening to your own thoughts vs listening to the Holy Ghost and how to recognize the spirit by conflating the spirit with conscience!
Now TBMs might not get this distinction and applaud his answer but those who know the spirit, commune with the spirit or walk in the spirit know this is wrong! He conflates spirit with conscience!
This has an interesting outcome. The church programs our conscience with layer after layer of mostly black and white rights and wrongs so if we believe our conscience and the spirit are the same thing it results in obedience. But is it obedience to God or obedience to the church? TBMs might argue obeying God and obeying the church are that same thing which is another conflation. They are NOT the same thing as anyone who has experiencing being tutored by the spirit knows.
Listen to 47:30 thru 51:10 of Face to Face with Elder and Sister Bednar
Is this prophetic guidance? To focus youth toward church rules rather than toward being tutored by the spirit himself? We have become a Pharisaical Mosaic church that has lost prophecy. In fact here the youth are being turned away from personal revelation by a member of the Twelve!
Obey, pay and pray!
Howard – thanks! I like to make sure alternate views are represented in any conversation. 😉
Unfortunately, the Holy Ghost is often conflated with conscience (associated with Light of Christ) in our church. This a gripe of mine as well.
Well, unfortunately the implications beg the question: Is Elder Bednar spiritually ignorant, deliberately manilipulating or both?
People stay where they feel both needed & wanted. Two points for your consideration:
As the use of social media has increased, the home teaching & visit teaching rates have plummeted. This adds yet another opportunity for the adversary to whisper in our ear (in MY ear), “nobody really cares about you or your family…” I visit all my ladies every month, & have for years. My own VTer comes a couple times a year, when it is convenient. I have 3 daughters. All three of them visit all their ladies. It has been more than 2 years since two of them received a visit from the sisters assigned to them. The other daughter just gave birth, Her VTers did not even know she was pregnant, until after she delivered, & yes, it was quite obvious she was expecting. All 4 of us are active. If we are ALL not being visited, then something is wrong.
Our son is no longer active. His wife’s hair color is either dark purple or pink, depending on her mood. She had a calling in YW, & a mother of one of the girls complained. The bishop asked the YW president to “talk to her”, so she sent my daughter in law an email that compared her to Lot’s wife. (This is not a 16 year old in need of guidance; this is a married woman with a husband who likes her hair color.) My son hit the roof, had a loud conversation with the bishop & they have not been back. In the thick of it, I was forwarded a copy of the email. When we are using electronic communication (Facebook, email), things are written that would NEVER be spoken to a person’s face.
People stay where they feel both needed & wanted.
Here are a few more.
Can you spot the confirmation bias in Elder No-Dodo’s Facebook video?
Elder Ballard’s recent embarassment “Put on a little lipstick” on par with with the LDS earring count necessary for marriage and entry into the celestial kingdom!
President Manson’s younger missionaries (That’s all God has to say to us?) and more receiently slumping at the pulpit.
Elder Packer – the list is too long to go into here.
This is prophetic leadership? Really? No wonder the church needs Applied Social Scientists, it’s prophets are God deaf!
Tone deafness happens.
Though in initial steps the difference between the background grain or flow of the universe that is the light of Christ and the active force that is the Spirit are conflated.
I’m not sure the conflation is ignorance. Sometimes that happens because of the stage of the learner.
Just speaking as someone who has taught post graduate students and primary classes.
As for history, I’ve two points.
One, all groups have history. Sometimes it is glaringly obvious as when one reads the story of Moses. It when everyone knows everyone.
Two, those whose lived experience included the history gained in faith. Phelps story or Thomas Marsh’s story (as told by him) gained faith from the history.
Typo on phone. Sorry should be “or.”
@Howard, Give us a break. Moses needed help raising his arms, God worked through Moses and the helpers to do what God wanted done. God doesn’t need any of us, but we need each other. God wants us to do our homework, we can’t just sit back and do nothing and expect God to do everything, what is that scripture about a slothful servant? I don’t see anything wrong with Pres. Monson (not Manson) telling everyone at general conference to Keep the Commandments, do you?
Tone deafness happens.
Though in initial steps the difference between the background grain or flow of the universe that is the light of Christ and the active force that is the Spirit are conflated.
Excellent comment Stephen! But were you a Prophet in the way that Elder Bednar and Q15 purport to be or in the way that Joseph clearly was this would NOT be difficult to sort out, you would be able to clearly answer the youth’s question regarding how to tell the difference between listening to your own thoughts vs listening to the Holy Ghost and how to recognize the spirit in a way that leads them toward the spirit rather than toward rote obediance.
I certainly can, my guess is that you can too given the sophistacation of your observation above. The fact that Elder Bednar does not is very, very disturbing! It suggests either spiritual naiveté (cannot) or deliberate diversion (ulterior motive)!
whizzbang wrote:
needed help raising his arms You are completely missing the point here! Compare the sum of Moses’ revelation to the sum of MOnson’s (sorry for the typo). The point is contemporary church revelation has become so watered down that it isn’t even revelation anymore! It has become committee requested inspiration in the form of “approved” or “not approved”! This approach contains far more man than God because it is the committee’s work product that is presented for God to approve rater that God speaking his mind through a Prophet! Compare this to Joseph’s “thus saith the Lord” which contains far more God than man!
Consider this description of the process from Hugh B. Brown’s memoirs
…rather than God speaking his mind…
Btw doesn’t the “stage of the learner” imply a level of ignorance by defination?
Also what sense is there to call beginners to Q15? Now I know this humble by teachable meme appeals to rank and file members because they can relate, but how long did it take God to teach Joseph? Bednar is 63, Joseph died before he reached 40!
Not commenting on the brethren, my thoughts about the current state if things include:
1) We are dreamers and idealists who are bored because in an effort to mainstream ourselves, our leaders have stopped talking about our dreams and our purpose. We struggle with relevancy. We used to believe that we (with god) could build Zion, eradicate poverty and bring about the second coming (the end of death and satan’s bufferings). Today we believe we should help ourselves and our families.
2) everyone is commenting on our lost ward family-our declining social system. Well, the church’s kitchen policy is a huge problem. Humans bond over fire and cooking. We have for millenia. It’s primal to us. We need to socialize over food-hot food specifically. Heck, even Jesus always included food in his “services”. In order to bring back the old activities or to bond the ward together, we need to crank up the kitchen hearth. (Give me a break, the only reasons for the dumb no cooking policy is that the church doesn’t want to fork out insurance money-like every other church- and they don’t want to have to pass local food inspection processes -which every other church and restaurant does. Both could be easily resolved.)
3) we lack spiritual intimacy with our leaders. When they speak to us, they simultaneously speak to anti-Mormons and to new converts. They have to censor themselves. Everything becomes sanitized and boring. Until they can communicate authentically with us, are we even together in Zion? Is it any wonder people struggle with the relevancy if church???
I want to go to church with Sister Mike in Georgia.
As a few other comments have pointed out, social problems within the church certainly cause inactivity. Some inactive people will tell you that they were literally pushed out through bullying…with messages loud and clear. Consider all the “ites” we are not supposed to have, but do…
-Queen Bee cliques who exclude and target victims,
–leadership roulette and unrighteousness dominion,
–mothers clubs (who exclude either SAHMs or WMs and everyone excludes the single or childless),
— business cliques,
— male rivalries
–old land vs new money
–transient/new/temporary members vs the old timers
—sports families vs music families
–liberal vs conservative Mormons
–GA family names vs rank and file saints
–pioneer families vs new converts
–rich vs poor
Etc.etc.etc.
At some point we’ve got to face the social problems within our wards and stop putting our heads in the sand. (People who raise these are seen as complainers, people who smile and naively focus on warm fuzzies get promoted. Laissez faire leadership is the norm.) It’s not about being offended or simply turning the other cheek, it’s about stopping the hemorrhage of good people being chased out by $&@)-);&@ who stay and get their way.
I think a message often fits the audience.
I’ve just listened to “What lack I yet” from general conference again.
That is a next stage discussion
Next stage discussion indeed! “What lack I yet” is the right direction!
Wouldn’t it be wonderful if this talk came from our Prophets rather than from a 2nd 70? Is it too meaty to come from the top? And how about teaching members how to tell the difference between listening to your own thoughts vs listening to the Holy Ghost and how to recognize the spirit as Elder Bednar was asked in the video above? This knowledge makes the discipleship referred to in this talk possible!
Based on his other talks, I *think* Bednar sees the conscience and promptings of the Spirit ideally intertwined. As you use agency to make good choices, you qualify yourself to better receive promptings of the Spirit. Those continual interactions with the Spirit hone your conscience so that you are better able to align your thinking with God’s will. When you make bad choices, you offend the Spirit. With the Spirit gone, you’re left to your conscience, and that might not be strong enough to lead you aright. I think that might explain his emphasis on obedience, making sure you keep as hospitable environment for the Spirit as possible. Based on what he said in the interview, it seems that whether the thought enticing you to do good comes from your own mind or the Spirit ultimately doesn’t matter. Both are functionally equivalent in bringing you closer to God and better aligning your will with his. (Incidentally, the “functionally equivalent” train of thought would justify a conflation of obedience to church leaders and obedience to God a la D&C 1). This also explains an “obedience in small things leads to obedience in greater things” mentality, as the consistent interactions with the Spirit in the small stuff are what ultimately refine your mind to better understand obedience when it is more difficult. The risk of this way of thinking is that it doesn’t adequately prepare you for a conflict between conscience and Spirit. A dissonance would be seen as the result of sin or a mind not adequately refined enough.
I’m having a hard time figuring out if Bednar was just trying to answer the question quickly, leading to a “functionally equivalent” teaching, or if that is truly how he sees the issue at the deeper level. He clearly sees a difference between conscience and the Holy Ghost in his other talks, with interactions with the HG as highest priority (which is the direct result of obedience in most of his arguments). He quoted from one of Richard G. Scott’s conference talks in one address, a talk that was all about pointing out the difference between the Light of Christ and the HG. In the interview he does specify sources of inspiration tied to Christ as well as HG. I don’t think it’s a good argument to claim that Elder Bednar doesn’t know the difference between the two.
Mary ann wrote: making sure you keep as hospitable environment for the Spirit as possible
LDS Mormons worry unnecessary about offending the spirit! Sinning doesn’t cause the spirit to flee, if it did the spirit would be unable stay to comfort the victims of murder, rape and violence as it is taking place! This is simply a myth, it’s LDS propaganda. Generally the spirit doesn’t flee, you withdraw from the spirit!
it seems that whether the thought enticing you to do good comes from your own mind or the Spirit ultimately doesn’t matter
Sure this fits the corrulated LDS obedience/sin avoidance model, but it precludes discipleship because discipleship requires one to communicate and follow the spirit closely as opposed to one’s internal dialog and I’m sure it will come as a big surprise to TBMs who haven’t yet walked in the spirit that the spirit has extra doctrinal lessons to teach his disciples or why bother being tutored by the spirit at all, simply bone up on LDS doctrine and checklist and you’re good to go! These extra doctrinal lessons include taboo breaking which creates dissonance via tention between what the spirit is prompting you to do as a lesson and your conscience which if you were raised in the church is largely layer upon layer of church rules. The reason for taboo breaking is to free you from this dogma (which was doctrine not dogma in the paradigm you will soon be leaving) to allow you to live a higher paradigm, that of disciple. Perfect obedience may be the goal of the contemporary LDS paradigm but a changed heart is one of the main goals of discipleship and that leaves rote obedience to rules behind. Rote obedience to rules is but a beginning lesson of a beginning paradyme it starts you off in the tight direction but it’s incapable of delivering you to the celestial kingdom on t’s own which is why walking in the spirit (obedience to the spirit rather than the rules) prepairs you for oneness with God.
Elder “I AM scripture” should know these things which begs the questions is he not who he purports to be??? Or is he misleading the youth to keep them subservient to church rule? Because a discipleship is a path out of obedience to rote law!
I’d like to repeat the following:
“According to a talk in April of 1978 by Pres. Benson,
“When I first came into the Council of the Twelve in 1943, I said, the average attendance at sacrament meeting—our Sunday preaching service—was about 20 percent. Today worldwide attendance is about 41 percent. Youth attendance is 46 percent, and attendance in the Primary—our young children—is 67 percent. The growth, progress, and increased spirituality of the members of the Church is not just accidental, I said to them. It is the result of a rich program based on eternal truth.””
Ummm, maybe. Or it could be that people here who advocate learning higher truths than the milk the institutional church gives out tend to be pushing alternate marital situations, alternate religious ceremonies, and the like. Part of the idea of safety in following church guidelines (as training wheels towards the path of Christian discipleship) is to avoid getting sucked in by some pretty out there fringe groups. You can go with the maniacal conspiracy/brainwashing theory, but I admit to telling someone in the last year to keep optimistic and err on the side of following the leadership, in spite of perceived faults. There has been some crazy stuff floating around here lately, and there was no way I was going to encourage any thought process that was leading otherwise rational people to form isolated communities out of state (in the name of becoming more pure disciples of Christ by receiving higher truths from heavenly messengers, btw).
Which goes into what Stephen’s been talking about. Correlation gave the church strength in making church programs more consistent worldwide. It had a net positive effect.
A victim of violence is without sin. The violent offender is often resisting the spirit. Even more so as to victims of sexual assault. There is no sin in them.
What Mary Ann said: I know I don’t know and you may or may not know so I’m going to stay in the boat, and encourage others to stay in the boat too.
Is it too scary for you to engage the Spirit directly and find out for yourself Mary Ann? Do you judge that experiment to be too risky for others to do?
What kind of church have we become if following the spirit isn’t to be done?
Stephen,
The new investigator is sinless?
My heavens, no-one is saying *don’t* follow the Spirit. Not everyone interacts with the Spirit the same way, though. My method of communication is likely different than yours. It takes time and experience for most people to discern the Holy Ghost from the Light of Christ or other influences.
Look, after watching my best friend have some very frightening interactions with the supernatural, I have learned to apppreciate the safeguards the church provides. Anytime people start advocating questionable methods of interacting with the supernatural under the guise of becoming better disciples of Christ or learning deeper mysteries, an alarm goes off in my head. You may find church methods too sanitized, but I saw the effectiveness of them as a measure of protection. I am not a sensitive. I will never be a sensitive. But I will not stand by silently if I see someone walking into a situation of high spiritual risk, no matter how enriching they think the reward might be.
Sorry Howard, but I’m bowing out of this conversation.
So conflating the spirit with conscience and not teaching how to tell the difference is a *safe guard*???
Why are people leaving the church? Because LDS “prophets” no longer prophesize, see visions or reveal, instead of aplying God’s solutions to this exodus they form committees and hire Applied Social Scientists, all problems flow from the loss of revelation at the top! Elder “I am scripture”‘s fumbled opportunity to teach the spirit to LDS youth world wide is just another example of the spiritual ignorance at the top of this once vital church.
Late and now off topic:
#49 Marivene:
I completely sympathize with your experience. I don’t know if this helps. Maybe not. You are not alone. Not even close.
-Most wards I know about, HT/VT runs less than 10% (US South). Probably less than 1% if defined as 2 priesthood holders doing the visiting. Don’t trust collected statistics, quite a bit of lying or exaggerating going on there.
-We have been instructed that active members don’t need HT/VT as much. We are to visit less actives most likely to be reactivated to increase the pool of those who visit. It doesn’t work because the core reason people stray is seldom over HT/VT and the reasons they come back are seldom solved or related to it either. The most common reasons men don’t HT can be grouped as prior bad experiences and these are more likely with less active than active people. (Bad angel on left shoulder whispers: the actives don’t need it, the less actives don’t want it.)
– -Thus we see that HT/VT as it is currently constituted creates elevated false expectations that do more harm in many wards than the good done by the few soldiers (like Marivene) doing their duty thoughtfully and compassionately. I think equal effort by leadership towards better ward activities with food would be more productive. People like Marivene would probably continue to do good thing on their own or with only minimal direction.
***
# 59 Michelle:
“I want to go to church with Sister Mike in Georgia.”
Herein lies another problem.
It is one thing when my wife invites the gullible sister missionaries to visit a modern high-octane church (like the one Youseff pastors) as sort of a cultural experience. To watch the awe in their eyes as many of the myths about evangelicals are shattered. They are so socially supported and indoctrinated that there is little risk of them converting or saying anything that gets us in trouble.
But it is another thing when she takes her borderland friends and they quietly convert. Or when she corresponds with evangelcal ministers in Utah in order to counsel by email or phone with women in various entanglements with LDS family and issues. Or writes essays on our differences and similarities that get quoted over their pulpits. Thin ice.
Layer into the picture- sassy teenage kids who do unpredictable things like bringing 30 non-LDS friends to a stake dance attended by only 20 LDS kids. Guess who that puts in control? Or who cause all kinds of trouble one might expect from a youth who has intense Mormon brand loyalty but is not exactly “church broke.” Ironically said daughter is dating a non-LDS guy and she just might convert him. The biggest barrier so far appears to be the crap that goes on in our church meetings. Another facscinating act in my family circus.
We have watched carefully the treatment that some of the more visible and effective alternate voices suffer. So far we fly under the radar. It is better if curious members like Michelle check out evangelical services themselves. You might see ward members like my wife there and it keeps more peace in families like mine. Many of the affluent evangelical churches have their Sunday services streaming on line so you can dip a toe in the water that way. But I don’t get the full effect without being there in person.
Last week Youseff was climbing the steps to the pulpit to preach and fell to his knees and started praying and crying. I was saying to myself that if this is an act it is about the greatest performance I have ever witnessed. I just cannot imagine anyone in the LDS church from top to bottom praying like that.(Henry Be Crying- mere sniffles). I have met him and as far as I can tell he is sincere.
What I come away with is not that I think they are so much better in every way. They have their problems. I have not converted. But I do see a ton of good things we could benefit from borrowing. Evangelicalism could profoundly enrich our LDS faith without destroying its distinctiveness.
***
As to Elder Bednar, I have been blessed so far, to find him boring enough that I have not paid close attention to exactly what he says. Thus we see that another beneficial effect of listening to polished and entertaining, professional, evangelical ministers is sort of a reverse innoculation effect against these sort of disturbing subtle messages.
I believe just about anyone can teach the gospel and it does not need to be precise and it is best taught locally, through word and deed. But it takes a rare talent to manage a corporate church worth tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars. Hopefully Elder Bednar and all of his fellow apostles, old and new, are collectively up to this task. If the general membership ever found out they squandered billions and billions of sacred money, blood would flow in the streets. Not to mention what the Lord might say come Judgement Day.
I think active families need home teachers. I think we need to serve and strengthen those who choose to fellowship with us. The old fable is instructive:
One cold stormy day a Goatherd drove his Goats for shelter into a cave, where a number of Wild Goats had also found their way. The Shepherd wanted to make the Wild Goats part of his flock; so he fed them well. But to his own flock, he gave only just enough food to keep them alive. When the weather cleared, and the Shepherd led the Goats out to feed, the Wild Goats scampered off to the hills.
“Is that the thanks I get for feeding you and treating you so well?” complained the Shepherd.
“Do not expect us to join your flock,” replied one of the Wild Goats. “We know how you would treat us later on, if some strangers should come as we did.”
ji, my husband would agree with you. It’s his biggest gripe, this concentration of HTers to less actives, whilst ignoring active members. How do you know how they’re really doing, if you’re not taking the time to care for them? It has always been his argument that we need to look after the active members first and foremost.
We don’t have HTers assigned to us. Because we are youngish and physically fit, attend regularly and fulfill our callings. He and our son diligently visit those on their list every month. Yet he and I are also both dealing with the ill health of our fathers, who are terminal.
I get home taught every month and am assigned two active families whom I home teach each months, so your experience and mileage may vary.