Doug Fabrizio interviewed Greg Prince on KUER this past week on the passing of Boyd K. Packer. (You can listen to it here.) Prince is a businessman, a historian of LDS church history, and a board member of Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought and The Journal of Mormon History. He’s author of the books Power from on High: The Development of Mormon Priesthood and David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism.
Prince noted the stark contrast between the comments made regarding Elder Perry’s death, who passed away just a few weeks ago, to Elder Packer’s death. While Perry was nearly universally praised, some revered and venerated Packer as “the glue that was keeping the church together” for decades. Others called him a “bully” and lauded his death as it would prevent him from being the church president and furthering his influence. It got me thinking about how polarizing Elder Packer was. I think he was the most polarizing apostle since Bruce R. McConkie. Here’s some of the polarizing things, both good and bad about Elder Packer that I took from the interview.
Politics
- He was born in Brigham City and had polio at age 5. In his later years, he suffered from post-polio syndrome which was very debilitating and confined him to a wheelchair. Surprisingly (at least to me) he ran for city council in Brigham City as a democrat. He has always been very conservative. I suspect today he probably aligns more with conservative republicans than democrats. Perhaps this is a sign of how the parties have changed over the years.
Ruled by edict, not Consensus
The Savior taught that “if ye are not one, ye are not mine.” Yet Packer often acted alone rather than in a coalition with other like-minded conservative leaders. Elder Oaks referred to Packer, saying once, “you can’t stage manage a grizzly bear.” Packer was likely was polarizing even among the apostles because he frequently overstepped the bounds of authority by interfering in the purview of other apostles. Prince said, “Where he saw something that was not in accordance with his worldview, he didn’t hesitate to fix it.”
- Packer led by edict, not consensus, and was very top down in his approach. He is quoted several times as saying, “I am here to teach, not be taught.” Prince noted the contrast with “trickle up revelation” that was prevalent in the church in the 1950s and 60s. Several grass roots initiatives were later embraced by the entire church. This mostly stopped since Packer was ordained an apostle in 1970.
- He intervened with church historian Leonard Arrington’s work even though church history wasn’t in his purview because he didn’t like his approach. Arrington felt that the history should tell itself. Packer felt that the dogma should dictate what was told. Arrington was a professional historian with a Ph.D in History. Elder Benson and Mark E. Peterson both took offense at the approach Arrington took. Elder Packer intervened two years into Arrington’s tenure and wrote a letter to the First Presidency to complain about Leonard Arrington. Prince said “He really pushed back against the idea that the data should drive the story. To him, the dogma should drive it.”
Gays
- In his defining polarizing talk, he was outspoken in his criticism of feminists, intellectuals and gay people. Prince gives a bit more back story of this talk. The talk was given in May 1993, shortly after a legal case in Hawaii in which gays were suing for the right to marry. The Hawaiian Supreme sent the case back to lower courts, and emphasized that the legal concept that “strict scrutiny” should apply to the decision making regarding gay marriage. Many conservatives were concerned because they felt if strict scrutiny were applied, gay marriage would eventually become legal, as it did 2 decades later.
- His comments claiming that sexual orientation was a choice and “why would a loving God do that?” are directly linked to suicides among the LGBT population. It was noted that the church changed rhetoric to distance itself from his stance, and even went so far as to edit out of audio, video, and written transcript his talk in which he tried to canonize the Proclamation on the Family.
Intellectuals
- A few months after this [in]famous talk, six intellectuals were disciplined (known now as the September Six–five were excommunicated and one disfellowshipped.) The church initially claimed that these were “local matters”, but when Steve Benson, grandson of President Ezra Taft Benson, published claims that Elder Packer made calls to stake presidents about disciplinary councils, the church had to retract the statement that these were simply local matters.
Feminism
- Prince said that Packer was threatened by feminism and told an anecdote where a woman had been invited to attend a meeting. Packer told the woman she couldn’t attend the meeting, because “you’re a woman.” Prince said this was pretty typical that Packer was threatened by feminism. Prince noted that the Feminine Mystique was founded in 1963, National Organization for Women was founded in 1965, Packer was ordained an apostle in 1970, and in 1972 the Equal Rights Amendment was passed by congress. These were all very important events that influenced Packer, causing him to influence the Church to mobilize in having the ERA defeated, especially in Utah. Idaho had already been approved the ERA amendment, then rescinded the approval after influence from LDS Church leaders.
- Packer’s wife didn’t work outside the home and they had 10 children. This likely influenced what he considered to be a normal, successful family approach and why he was such a hardliner against feminism. Packer didn’t want female voices in church leadership.
Sermons
- Despite this controversial talk, Packer was more concerned with behavior than doctrine. Salt Lake Tribune reporter Peggy Fletcher Stack said baptism, forgiveness were major themes of his sermons, which were usually pastoral in nature, and typically didn’t involve doctrine or hard issues, his two infamous talks notwithstanding.
Church Music
- One caller to the program said correlation has destroyed our hymns. Packer felt that musical numbers in the church should only involve hymns, and was the driving force to eliminate road shows. Road Shows were usually put on by each stake where wards created plays or skits. One caller said that Packer has sucked the life out of the church, and Prince agreed.
- Packer also intervened in BYU’s theater department despite it not being in his purview and having no expertise or background in music. He didn’t hesitate to pick up the phone and prohibit them from doing things he didn’t like. He was originally on the board of trustees for BYU, and even after his time on the board, he maintained close ties with influential people there and maintained tight control on what happened at BYU. In the early 1970s, he went down to the music department and gave a very critical speech on what the faculty and students in the music department were doing despite having no expertise in music.
Packer Loved Life
In stark contrast, another caller said that she used to love to visit the Packer’s house because they had ducks. She called them “Packers Quackers” and said this was a side of him that the majority of the church did not see. She said he loved life. (One does not get this impression from his sermons.) In a personal note, a friend of mine told me that Elder Packer visited a local sacrament meeting to attend his grandson’s missionary farewell. Packer forced the bishopric to change the meeting so it was in accordance with Elder Packer’s standards. (Elder Packer was the leading authority in that ward on that Sunday, and didn’t hesitate to micromanage the life out of the meeting.)
Military Service
Elder Packer served as a bomber pilot in World War 2, but rarely discussed this in any of his sermons. On the other hand, Elder Paul Dunn discussed his military service frequently. When it was discovered Dunn had embellished his tales, Packer was extremely critical of Dunn. Prince surmises that Packer did not see combat duty in WW2. As a side note, I watched a very interesting documentary on baseball player Ted Williams. Williams baseball career was interrupted by his service in WW2, but Williams did not see combat either. Williams instead served as a pilot instructor, and returned to baseball. However, when the Korean War broke out, Williams saw intense combat.
What are your thoughts on Elder Packer? Why do you think he was so polarizing?
Wheat & Tares 
I think it’s a very fair assessment and I’m glad it’s out there.
The RadioWest interview was very good, and I wish it would have continued for another hour, as there was much more to discuss. It takes a lot of work to unpack Packer.
I believe he may have had undiagnosed PTSD, perhaps from his wartime service; the interview mentioned that he came back from the war “a very different person from when he left”, and he had a lifelong reluctance to talk about that part of his life. His harsh, unyielding worldview is a result of him truly believing that he spoke the mind and will of God, with impunity. When he caused pain or offense, he never apologized, retracted or backed down (although the Church did retract on his behalf). He saw himself as being above criticism or opposition, and seemed to have no remorse. Those kinds of behavior are consistent with a number of personality disorders that are known symptoms of PTSD. Bullying, delusions, micromanagement, obsession, and inflexibility are all telltale signs. He knew fully well that his words were pushing LGBT kids to kill themselves, and he did nothing, and apparently felt nothing.
Now that he has been “released”, I hope the Church can move on and work to undo the damage he has done. This will be a difficult task, as he influenced a generation of Church leaders and members to think and believe the way he did.
Packer’s issues with feminism could have been mainly circumstantial. He spent his working life as a CES employee, trying to support 10 kids on a modest income. The idea of women being educated and rising in the workforce could have been perceived as a threat to his ability to support his family, and by extension, his manhood. I’ve been told such anti-feminist rhetoric was common in those days, especially in LDS circles as the Church was strengthening its position against the ERA.
#3 Jack Hughes-
That’s an interesting perspective. My father was from the same generation and I suspect he also came back from his wartime experiences in the Pacific with PTSD.
That wasn’t a diagnosis that became well known until after my father had died but I only once in my life ever heard him talk about what it was like for him. The story he told was touching and also a bit horrifying considering he was still a young kid who had already been traumatized by serious poverty and deprivation in the Depression.
Many years later some letters that circulated in his large family during the WWII era surfaced. Reading them I got a picture of a very different person than the man I had known who exhibited the traits you describe which were, of course, the less admirable traits we also saw in Elder Packer.
I will give this some serious thought because underneath the bursts of rage and trauma I saw in my father I also saw a loving man who sacrificed greatly so his family could have a better life. It would make me happy to discover that in Elder Packer too. Not that it would reduce the pain and even carnage he left in his wake but it would be helpful to understand that it may have been beyond his powers to ameliorate it.
For a lot of veterans of that generation, those kinds of things just weren’t talked about openly. Same thing with my grandfathers. To do so would show weakness, and such a thing was unmanly. And it’s too bad, because their descendants (us) miss out on seeing them as human beings, just innocent young men back then who answered when their country called. Instead, they dealt with it by either choosing to remain silent (like Packer) or playing up the John Wayne machismo heroics (like Dunn).
It also should be noted that one need not have seen direct combat or enemy action to be affected by PTSD. Some of the side effects of war (witnessing death, friendly fire, capture, handling dead bodies, abandonment, survivor’s guilt, traumatic brain injuries, sexual assault, etc.) are known to be even more traumatizing than direct combat alone.
Bomber training during WWII was very dangerous (high volume, accelerated program, untested aircraft, etc.) and not a few pilots and crewmembers died in training accidents. Statistically, Packer must have known at least a few colleagues who perished in training, long before he went overseas. The weight of that alone is trauma fuel.
I’m slightly curious to see what is in Packer’s military records, but it is likely that they were destroyed in the archives fire in the 1970s. Like many of his generation, his wartime experiences, good or bad, died with him.
I will have to listen to that interview, it sounds very interesting. Maybe he was so polarizing because he had too much confidence that what he spoke was the mind and will of the Lord. He was unbending on issues where he had made up his mind.
I also think he was very introverted.
While definitely a difficult leader, on a personal level I think he could be very kind and pleasant to be around. I know of people who visited his home and he took time to show them his love of nature and craftsmanship. His calling thrusted him into the lime light and that must have been very taxing for him as an introvert.
If he is responsible for the current status of music in the church, I sure hope it changes. While visiting my wife at girls camp there was a Christian youth group camping next to us. They had drums, guitars, and some really fun, lively music being sung with great felling. Meanwhile we were softly singing occapella some boring hymn from the 1800’s. It was depressing to say the least.
For me one of the most polarizing aspects of his service is propagating the idea that church leaders represent higher church leaders to the people, not the other way around. Elder Robbins recently brought this principle up in conference by asking “Which way do you face?”
I think this is a terrible teaching, and the opposite of what Christ did. We should focus on ministering to and serving those in need, not on propping up the hierarchy.
it was also interesting to hear about his “very close boyhood friend” that wrote his biography, etc.
Packer was very concerned about tomfoolery between young boys, and mentioned it in many talks.
After the first shock of hearing of his death (death is always a shock to me, even when it is not unexpected), my first thought was that we will now be able to have brass, woodwinds, and guitars in church meetings. Reverence really is more than just quietly sitting.
I have always hated that “Which way do you face.” You serve the Lord by serving your fellow man, not the other way around.
On the good side, I hope that his stand on limiting meetings on Sundays continues. There are some Sundays where I am in meetings at church for seven hours, and I don’t have a leadership calling. I don’t even think about home teaching or other service on those days.
MH, didn’t Steve Benson say it was Elder Oaks who told him you can’t stage manage a grizzly bear?
You’re right KLC. I fixed the OP.
“…for city council in Brigham City as a democrat.”
We all make mistakes, even Reagan was a democrat at one time.
“Packer led by edict, not consensus, and was very top down in his approach.”
As are a lot of successful leaders in and outside the church.
“In his defining polarizing talk, he was outspoken in his criticism of feminists, intellectuals and gay people.’”
Put another way, he defended the concept of Faith and “The Family: A Proclamation to the World”
“..Elder Packer made calls to stake presidents about disciplinary councils…”
That was his right (rather obligation) as an Apostle, including the President of the Quorum for a long time.
“..Threatened by feminism”
Put another way, he defended “The Family: A Proclamation to the World”. Which was, after all, supported and is still supported by all members of the 12/FP.
“Packer’s wife didn’t work outside the home and they had 10 children”
Good for them.
“She said he loved life.”
Most people that live the commandments do!
“Elder Packer was the leading authority in that ward on that Sunday, and didn’t hesitate to micromanage the life out of the meeting”
And?
He was the President of the 12, or the second highest ranking member in the church. What do you expect?
When someone is convinced they speak for God, reason or compromise don’t have to be considered. I think that is the way Packer dealt with his position. Others filter. He didn’t feel the need. Or, geez, maybe he was filtering.
i agree with john larsens take on packer. the firebombing on tokyo is some of the largest destruction and death in the history of mankind. Those who dealt with often came away with various coping mechanisms, and the one that Packer seemed to use most was the Black and White , theres a plan for everything, there HAS TO be a plan for everything. Because otherwise it’s too hard to deal with what they experienced.
#7 Eli,
I’m convinced that BKP was an introvert also. He gave a conference talk back in the mid 1980s where he stated that he very much disliked having his picture taken and that he only tolerated it because it helped people know who were the leaders of the Church. In addition, I once met somebody who lived in BKPs ward boundaries and was about to be baptized, and who requested to meet BKP prior to the baptism. Packer declined the request on the grounds that it would “sensationalize” the ordinance.
Packer was a very complex person. By all accounts he was modest and unassuming, and gave some of the most comforting conference talks I have heard. He also struck me as something of a “leveler” who greatly desired all church members to be equals (see his October 2007 GC talk). He clearly disliked church members “putting on airs”. At the same time, however, he used his position to impose his personal views on the church and its members in a way that strikes me as being tyrannical. Being a protege of Harold B. Lee, who also took some hardline approaches (and who headed up Correlation), perhaps he saw himself as being the one to continue the correlation of the church, especially once President Lee was no longer in the picture.
Ken, if you’re going to quote sentences or phrases out of context, there’s no use debating you. If you can’t read the whole thing in context it’s really best to avoid commenting. Nobody should take you seriously.
Not quite sure what i took out of context, but whatever…
“It takes a great meeting to be better than no meeting at all” –BKP
This quote should be cross-stitched on every wall in every meetinghouse.