I received the following message privately from a friend who read my last post entitled “Men, Sex & Modesty” and have permission to share it under my name so the writer remains anonymous. It is long, but it is incredibly important and ought to be read by EVERY person on this earth, and especially by every member of the LDS Church. THIS is why I speak so regularly about how we talk about modesty. My friend’s story needs to be known. If you can do so, please share it with others – in any way that is comfortable for you. Today’s guest post is by long-time bloggernacler, Ray.
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Ray, thank you for tirelessly addressing this topic. It’s so, so important that we stop this senseless female shaming. I have stayed away from publicly speaking about this because it’s a painful one for me. If I could post my comments anonymously on your post, I most certainly would.
We recently had a YW Leader meeting to plan an activity on being a lady. Leaders were saying we needed to teach the girls to bend down properly so that men would not have view of their behinds. –because our men and YM find that to be sexual. Also how they shouldn’t sit “Indian style” even in pants because it could be inviting. Those and other comments were made. I was boiling.
I went home that day and fired off an email to our president, who wasn’t saying those ridiculous things, but I felt she needed to know my point and why. I couldn’t voice it in person or at that meeting because we had no privacy. We’re in a stake building and there was a lot of traffic that day. To make it easier, I copied my email to you. You are welcome to reference any points I have, should you want to, provided, I remain anonymous.
“That meeting, while discussing what to teach the YW for etiquette night, stuck a nerve that many would not understand. They don’t realize what words like that sound like to women like me.
**Trigger Warning** – Sexual Assault (not sexually explicit)
When I was in HS, I was a quiet bookworm who dressed in oversized sweatshirts. I was very, very conscious of my body. This quiet girl in oversized sweatshirts, babysat for a family next door. That father came home from being out late one night and did something unspeakable to a 15 yr old girl. He went into another room, took off all of his clothes, came out and cornered me on the couch. I froze. I was terrified. His wife was watching from the next room and laughed the whole time. It was all so confusing to my innocent self. I was 15. I’d never seen a naked man, much less been pounced on by one. I wasn’t close to my parents and never told them (until 10+ yrs later when he was arrested for child molestation) I was too ashamed to talk about it as a teen and I wondered if it was somehow my fault.
My leaders had taught me that I was largely responsible for keeping men’s thoughts clean. So, I mistakenly thought I must have somehow encouraged him to do that. Then at BYU (still wearing oversized baggy sweatshirts, still ashamed of my body), my roommates and I were at a boys’ off campus house watching a movie. I fell asleep and the others went to another part of the house and left me alone in the living room. One of the male roommates came home (someone I didn’t know well). He found me asleep with no one around. He assaulted me. This time at age 18, I was not as lucky as I was at 15 when all the dad did was follow me around naked until I found the strength to run. That BYU occurrence still creates a panicked response from me when I think of it. 22 yrs later. Again, I never told anyone. I’d fallen asleep; I felt shame and blame. I am ever so thankful he did not steal my virginity. He most certainly did steal my innocence though. I was left in emotional and physical tatters. Even to this day, I fight the voice that whispers to me that I was to blame because I fell asleep. Maybe “I looked too enticing on the floor and he couldn’t help himself”. And falling asleep where I shouldn’t have, meant I couldn’t “defend my virtue” as I was supposed to.
When women (members or not, but more often it’s members) talk about how it’s our (females) responsibility to not bend over, not show shoulders, not show knees etc, because YM/men just “can’t help themselves” from having impure thoughts, it makes a knot in my stomach. My throat tightens. My stomach hurts. My voice quakes. I fight back tears. I was shy. I was ashamed of my female figure and always trying to hide it. Yet, two horrible acts were committed against me and against my will.
I will always dig my heels in when it feels like people are intentionally or unintentionally over-sexualizing our YW. I want them to be taught to dress and act like ladies. To be respectful of their bodies and treat them like the temples and Godly gifts they are. But I want discussions of how our innocent actions are turning men on left out of it. We can’t be responsible for perverse men’s/YM’s thoughts and actions. We can’t inadvertently teach our YW that they are responsible for that.
Did I ever bend over to pick something up and did my creepy neighbor see me? I have no idea. But I cannot easily hear someone say something like that because whether it’s intended or not, it tells me that I could be partially responsible for things that have happened to me. To someone who’s never been molested, assaulted, injured etc., those words and implications would have very different meaning. They probably wouldn’t hear the message that I hear. To me though….
It’s excruciatingly painful. I *know* it is never intended to sound like that. But part of me is still just a teenage girl who had her innocence stolen from her and I carry it with me every day of my life. So sometimes my hackles get raised from sweet and well-meaning people, and sometimes the frightened and angry young girl in me lashes out. It’s a damaging message we should never send. Ever.”
Wheat & Tares 
Powerful.
Thank you for posting this.
I like that she believes in the concept of modesty but wants it taught properly, without any blaming women for what men do or shifting of responsibility away from men for what they do. She isn’t attacking modesty as a concept; she’s decrying the way it too often is taught and the messages girls and women internalize as a result.
I really don’t think there is a lot of value to teaching modesty as a stand alone concept. Might it be more useful to discuss how to dress for a particularly situation? Not with moral connotations so much as practicality or what is expected.
I do not live in a Mormon community but in a pluralist one, so most of the people I see have not dressed with modesty in mind, and very few of them would meet Mormon standards, but again there is a wide range of acceptable. There does not seem to be exclusion because of dress. This variety applies whether out in public or at the beach, where women can wear anything from a bikini bottom only, to board shorts on the bottom, and a sun block top which covers to the wrists and with a high neckline.
The rates of sexual assaults, for various areas, are often more an indication of reporting rates. The sister in the story did not report her assaults. The rates for Utah are not much different from places like California where you might expect less modesty. If modesty doesn’t have any affect on the rate of sexual assault, what is it’s purpose?
Like the little message on the side of the post I would be advocating we don’t tell young women how to dress modestly so much as, what is appropriate for different situations, if we need to at all. I really think there are enough places where they can find out without us telling them.
I really think we could trust mormon women to dress themselves, like most first world women do.
If you bent over, a gentleman would look away. A gentleman does not point his eyes in a direction that may invite temptation. That’s what Young Men need to be taught, how to be gentlemen.
Dear Mormon Men,
There are roughly 3.6 billion of women on the planet. If you practice what you believe there may be one or maybe two or maybe three that will choose to share their body with you. Given that the other 3.59999999999999999 billion or so won’t, can we agree you should just gets used to not not seeing their bodies as your mental sexual property. Their bodies literally having nothing to do with you. Not the girls in YW, or the women at work. Not the wives of your friends. Not the other ward members. Not the women on TV or you meet walking down the street. Given this reality it is time you start training yourself to see them as whole people with hopes and dreams. Spiritual beings. Not as bodies to be oggled, scanned or for your personal titilation. How hard is that? It can’t take more effort than bending the entire institution of the church to protect you from doing so.
I’d like to see us teach modesty in dress meaning not overpaying for things just because they are trendy or cool. How about a return to real modesty, living modestly?
#5 – SOMEHOW I’ve have the feeling that in your case I’d have little trouble observing your wishes. I have it easy, being single (but NOT for LONG) once again at age 55. Most women under age 30 look like children to me, so some sexy 25-ish gal whose attire isn’t leaving much to the imagination doesn’t really do all that much, since my thoughts are more that even if she’s not my daughter (all kids accounted for AFAIK…) she’s still someone’s daughter. Besides, I doubt there’s anything new under the sun (Eccl 1:9). Any woman more age-appropriate for me (at least 35, and typically 45+) would look ridculous if dressed like a slutty teen, and any worth a moment of my time would know better. Now, given an attractive forty-something in either a smart women’s business suit or a dress that flatters her obviously well-maintained figure (ergo, you know she’s quite a women but still also quite a lady), well, YO….
#6 – living modestly is indeed as important as dressing same. Women who are spoiled tend to want rainment and ardonment, men act like boys and want bigger and costlier toys. It’s all a matter of how one choose to live beyond one’s means, but the real ‘prize’ is a lady that lives within hers and puts on a happy face nonetheless. Guys, if you’ve married such a gal, she’s a KEEPER.
Interestingly, Hawkgrrl, so many of the clothing touted as modest is significantly more expensive than “regular” clothes. I agree with you.
Love the comment about gentleman!!! And the “Dear Mormon Men”!! But it’s not just Mormon men. That’s a letter for ALL men.
As the author of the letter written to Ray, I’d like to believe that Mormon women can dress themselves. I certainly do not need opinions. But I also do not need opinions on how much I should spend on my clothes, given the fact that my budget and my income is nobody’s business but mine.
Sticking to the topic, we need to stop oversexualizing our women by teaching that nearly every inch of their body and every innocent movement is a potential turn on for a man who is lead only by his glands. Women are oversexualized enough in this world. Let’s not do it at church too. Enough is enough.
… and that’s called “blaming the victim”. Here’s a good video for any “Priesthood Leadership Group” to watch before they start judging the “worthiness” of female activities based on how aroused men get by their actions:
Link
In addition to chavanism (and misogyny?) fueling an LDS rape culture, sexual suppression and scarcity fuel concepts like porn shoulders and and over reactions to up-skirt shots and even to children in tank tops for God’s sake! Get some and get over it! Old men have long forgotten young men’s needs and painting those needs as evil does as much harm as it does good.
#11 – ??? LDWS “rape” culture? Howard, that’s utterly loony! I can think of NO case where teachings and/or cultural expectations would encourage an attitude amongst LDS men, even the youngsters, that “NO!” means “maybe” and “maybe” means “yes”, or something to that effect.
Like in any religion, some of our number are just supressed, outright prudes. We encourage chastity, but that means that our sexual urges are controlled..implying that there’s something to control! I don’t take cold showers b/c I can’t pay my PG&E bill!
No not loony Douglas. I’ll admit the term is a little bit strong for most LDS arenas but there are many reported cases in the bloggernacle of the term fitting specific Bishops or SPs quite well!
LDS culture suppresses sexuality (artificially increasing inappropriate demand) and openly blames females for male transgressions from the pulpit! This too often translates to when a male goes too far the female is overtly or subtly blamed. What was she waring to trigger his assault? How was she acting?
I teach my 9yo old about modesty: would you be comfortable wearing it in front of your heavenly parents? Then I let her decide. No hemlines no rules, no thinking about boys.
We teach our children modesty by practicing nudity in the home — as an example that our heavenly Parents wouldn’t have created a perfect, sinless baby “immodest” and that if They had wanted people to go around nude all the time, then They would have created us that way.
We teach our children modesty by practicing nudity in the home… I used to think this might be a good idea. Since then I’ve learned that this can be experienced as a boundary evasion by some children and they grow up allowing an unhealthy level of psychological boundary evasion as adults. To characterize this by using one of the more extreme examples I’ve encountered a 6’4″ 20 year-old who allowed himself to be bullied pretending to be good-natured about it in a similar way to George McFly in Back to the Future. I don’t think this is a good way to teach modesty, the sweet spot must be somewhere in between nudity in the home and porn shoulders.
Thank you for sharing such a moving and essential story. Framing modesty with an uncompromising focus on female behavior—teaching that innocent movements might provoke—and placing spiritual responsibility on women for others’ thoughts is deeply shaming and harmful. The plea to reclaim modesty as a principle grounded in respect and personal dignity, and to stop binding girls with fear, offers a much-needed call for compassion and balance.