Straight up, what should you do? How should you react if you discover it just is not “attraction” or “bi-sexual urges” but your kid, your teen, is picking up with a rough gay crowd?
What is the advice I would give you, what do you need to know?
First:
- You did not cause it
- You can’t control it
- You are not to blame.
Psychologists and therapists have been blaming everything from autism to zoophilia on bad nurturing, bad mothers and bad parents. The newest twist is to just blame it all on fathers. Bottom line: all of that tripe is a lie.
Second:
- You can control if your child has a safe place to sleep
- You can control if your child has access to food
- You can control if your child learns to tell you the truth or feels a need to hide from you.
- You can send your child to a center that will teach them how to avoid AIDS.
Either you control the things you can control, acknowledge the things you can not, and rely on Christ to help you know the difference or you will end up frustrated, alienated and in pain. All parents who throw a child out accomplish is making sure the child does not have a safe place to sleep. All parents do who who do not listen with love is they teach their child it is not safe to tell the truth.
Be serious. There is nothing you can tell your child at this point that they have not heard before, other than, maybe, that you really love them. That no matter how shocking, whatever they tell you, you will love them forever, just like Christ does.
That is the advice I gave someone recently.
What advice would you give?
Wheat & Tares 
Good advice.
“You can control if your child learns to tell you the truth or feels a need to hide from you.”
Probably. Usually. But not always. So if your child never learns this, despite your best efforts, then perhaps “You did not cause it; You can’t control it; You are not to blame.”
“You did not cause it; You can’t control it; You are not to blame” is the most important lesson many parents need to learn when a seventeen or eighteen year old makes choices that seem completely alien.
You are right, some people can never embrace honesty, and sometimes nothing works.
I should have been clearer that you can control whether it is possible, not whether or not it will happen.
Great post, but I fear for how the comments will turn out.
Express unconditional love but I would never condone it.
I have a friend who says they (she and her husband) have told their kids that they don’t care who they are interested int dating, the standards of conduct remain the same.
What do you think of that?
Incidentally, I presume these are the pre-adult expectations. After the kids leave home, this couple recognizes that waiting until marriage isn’t the same standard for gay and straight people.
I like the up front acceptance that they don’t care whether their kids are gay or straight.
Stephen,
Yes.
One of the saddest ironies is when parents take the “blame” for choices they wish their children were not making. Those same parents may well also take the “credit” when their children make what they would consider good choices. And they deserve neither blame nor credit, for their near-adult and adult children (and even their younger ones) will make their own choices, according to plan.
Hopefully the parents in your OP will also find it in themselves to listen long enough when their child speaks so that he or she knows that someone is listening. It’s a scary world for kids entering adulthood. Knowing there is a place of safety can be of great value.
I would also add this: there is a difference between kicking a child out and agreeing together that the child might do better on his own. The first, a choice often made in anger or fear, may be an effort to control the child’s choices, and perhaps in an uninformed way. The second recognizes that the child deserves the dignity of his own choices and their consequences. (I would say this applies to a teen cruising any bars, gay or not.)
Stephen,
My advice would be the same if they were committing any other sin: Love them and try and help them through the steps of repentance, with the first and hardest step of helping them recognize the sin. When counseling youth or parents, I found the best advice is to remind them of the Saviors words ‘I came not to condemn the world, but save the world’. He is the prince of peace and the only one that will be able to truly help them.
Some friends might find the narcissism implied in this counsel offensive or at best useless. “I’m sorrying for the condition of my son, and you’re telling me to feel better about myself?”
I am on the road, but the comments have been in line with what I expected. This post lacks the right kind of hooks to draw a large number of comments or the forcefull ones. I admit I was tempted, but the hooks would have gotten in the way of the advice. I will try to respond more when I am not on a mobile phone trying to beat freezing rain.
#8 John, I think it would be narcissim if the intent were only to make the parent feel better about himself. But if the counsel that Stephen describes is actually true, then it’ just a description of the way things as they are.
That said, it may in fact feel narcissistic to a parent faced with the reality that a teenager or adult child will make his own decisions independent of what the parents wishes. Most parents want the best for their kids, but the notion that a parent can guarantee it by “perfect” parenting is simply not true.
The counsel also does not say that a parent may not have made mistakes along the way, but those mistakes are — in and of themselves — not at all likely to drive the child’s behavior described in the OP.
The OP is not a plea for the parents to feel better about themselves, but to recognize what they can and cannot do about the present situation.
When you say “teenager,” you could mean anywhere between 13 and 19. For an 18-19 year old son, a parent’s ability to intervene is obviously quite limited, and as Stephen has said, unconditional love is their most powerful (sometimes ONLY) tool.
Most readers, however, are probably considering the 13-17 year old teenager. Yes, unconditional love is still the most powerful tool a parent has. If you want your gay son to avoid all the horrific mortal pitfalls you’ve heard about in your church meetings, don’t reject your gay son. Parental rejection often destroys self-esteem, and it leads many gay youth into high-risk behavior, whether it be unprotected sex, or in the worst cases, suicide.
At the same time, the parent of a pre-adulthood teenager has the ability and responsibility to take action. Some of the best advice I’ve heard on this topic comes from Dan Savage, a sex advice columnist from Seattle who also happens to be (a) gay, and (b) a parent. The father of a gay teenager, who’s 14 year old son was beginning to date a “slightly older” boy, asked Dan’s advice. While Dan’s response isn’t specific to cruising gay bars, it seems appropriate to this discussion:
“Treat your son to some of that equal treatment we gay people are always going on about, SMS, and treat him just like you’d treat your 14-year-old straight kid. No responsible parent would allow his 14-year-old daughter — and that’s how you should think of him for now (more on that in a moment) — to have sleepovers with her slightly older boyfriend, right? So no sleepovers for your gay kid. Remember: You can be supportive and be his advocate without signing off on stuff you wouldn’t sign off on for a straight child — indeed, it’s the best way to show your support. What else can you do? You can hover, scrutinize, interfere — all the crap that parents typically do when their children begin to date. For instance, SMS, this boy your son is seeing? Have you met him? Meet him. How much older is he? Find out. Are they messing around? Ask them. Make sure your son understands that he doesn’t have to engage in anal intercourse to be authentically gay, or all grown-up, or out. He can take things slow — he should take things slow. Encourage your son to date, to hold hands, to make out. And you should, as awkward as it’s going to feel to say so aloud, encourage your son, when he does become sexually active, to stick with mutual masturbation and oral sex for a good, long time — until he’s sure he’s ready for intercourse, not just anxious for it. Getting back to the daughter business: You should also regard your son, at least through his adolescence, as more of a daughter to you than a son. We tend to be more protective of our daughters — our straight daughters — than we are of our sons. Why? A sexist desire to keep our daughters “pure”? That’s a part of it, sure, but there’s also this: Men are pigs, and people on the receiving end of male sexual desire/attention are in more danger than people on the receiving end of female sexual desire/attention. (In general — individual results may vary.) Testosterone is the crystal meth of hormones, a badass drug, and men are more likely to be abusive and violent. The prevalence of HIV among gay men makes the stakes higher for your son. So don’t allow him to date anyone you don’t get to meet and approve of, and don’t confuse “being supportive” with “letting him do whatever/whomever he wants.” Be active, be engaged, and never stop being his meddling, interfering, hypersuspicious dad.”
It’s not hard to draw the analogy from Dan’s “dating” advice to the OP’s “cruising gay bars” advice. Keep in mind that in most (every?) state, it’s illegal for your teenage son to be present in a bar. In my experience, the management of gay bars are quite careful to exclude minors from the premises, not only out of human decency, but also in order to protect their business from the disproportionately harsh penalties that many law enforcement agencies seem to mete out on gay bars, in comparison to regular bars. If you know what bar(s) your teenage son is cruising, you may choose to have a respectful chat with the management, show them Junior’s recent photos, so they’re on ample notice that he shouldn’t be there.
At the same time, remember that if your gay teenage son can’t slip into the bar, he may head for more risky venues. Keep on being vigilant, and make sure your son is getting some real education. That does not mean sitting him down with your bishop, nor does it mean giving him hyperbolic pamphlets from anti-gay organizations that portray homosexuality as the guarantee of an early death. If you really want your gay son to listen to the kind of advice that can protect him, sit him down with trained, openly gay counsellors at reputable GLBT community centers, HIV/AIDS prevention programs, etc. Maybe these men won’t be your faith’s ideal role models, but they will have the knowledge and credibility to get through to your son.
Nick,
It does need to be communicated to the boy that his actions are sinful so he can follow the proper steps of repentance. Of course, it needs to be communicated in the spirit of love.
Will,
If this boy has grown up in an active LDS home, he knows about the church’s view of his actions. I’m not suggesting that a parent ignore spiritual welfare, but there may be other issues to address first.
Nick Literski’s comment is excellent.
Nick makes a great point, that I was thinking more of an eighteen going on nineteen year old and that there is a huge difference if the kid is younger. Thanks for the additional points which should have been in the origional post.
Paul,
Fully understood.
Implicated in my statement to Nick is that homosexual activities are sinful. Nick, on the other hand, is advocating homosexuality as some type of normal behavior.
Uh, Will… have you read many of Nick Literski’s other posts and/or comments?
Will,
Would your counsel to your son at such a young age be to avoid all contact with the same sex person he is attracted to? Would they be allowed to hold hands, kiss, or hug? Would he be allowed to date, go to the movies or share a milkshake together?
If not, what would you actually counsel your son to do? Would you tell him in no uncertain terms that he is to remain celibate his entire life and find hobbies to past the time?
I really am interested in knowing how you would counsel in this instance.
Latter Day Guy
Yes, I have read his comments in the past which is the basis for my comment.
Michael,
I would encourage him to follow the counsel of as recorded in Ether 12:27. Particularly the verbiage after ‘And my Grace …..’
Will, please know it was not my intention to “advocate” any shift in your religious views. I tried to comement in a way which respected the religious values of LDS readers, including the fact that they would view sexual activity outside an opposite-sex marriage as sinful. At the same time, I tried to offer important advice to the LDS parents of a gay son who has chosen to be sexually active despite the teachings of the LDS church.
I have five daughters, three of which are still teenagers. Regardless of my religious views, I don’t want my daughters to engage in sexual activity during their teenage years, because the negative physical and emotional consequences can be quite dramatic. I suspect that you and I agree on that point. If one of my daughters chose to ignore those concerns, however, I would at least want them to be using birth control and (yes, “and”) condoms.
In the case of the OP, we have a gay youth who has chosen, in spite of LDS teachings and the loving concern of his parents, to seek out (and presumably engage in) sexual activity. To complicate the matter further, this young man is choosing a venue which indicates he’s seeking out sexual activity with adult men, despite the serious dangers that accompany sexual activity between adults and minors.
Will, I completely understand that your ideal solution is to bring a complete end to such a young man’s sexual activities. I have no intention whatsoever of denigrating or disrespecting that solution. At the same time, I’m practical enough to know that it won’t always succeed. If you had a gay son who persisted in seeking out sexual encounters despite your guidance, I hope you would take the next best route–making sure that your son’s physical and emotional well-being was protected as much as possible.
I think Nick’s advise is right on. I wouldn’t want any of my kids to cruise any bars and would hope they could find appropriate companionship elsewhere.
But, having said that, Stephen points are also well taken.
Taking a view from Church however, there is always much to celebrate from parents whose kids follow the parent’s chosen path (active, mission, temple, etc) and not much room for the “agency” kid, who is off the path. A lot of parents have the later, but tend to suffer in silence due to the shear embarrassing of it all.
Nick,
I owe you an apology. You have made a dramatic shift in your tone and approach and I assumed you would have the same approach.
Thank you, Will. I appreciate that, and I’m glad to accept your apology.
Nick
Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Great advice.
#16 Will, I submit that the time for us to point of the sinfulness of behavior is not necessarily when we discover our children are engaging in it.
Presumably this near-adult teen has heard the lessons, yet still feels the urges in himself to behave differently from the way the church teaches. It matters little whether the behavior normal or abnormal, it is what one’s child is doing.
The parent, then, must decide how to move forward. Certainly one way is to preach repentance (and Alma gives us an example of that in Alma 39-42). Another is to offer love and support of the child, but perhaps not his actions (Alma’s father Alma showed that approach in the end of the Book of Mosiah).
#21 Jeff, I think you are correct. Fortunately (I guess), I’m seeing more parents with “agency” children (an interesting turn of phrase) who are less attached to what they view as their children’s poor choices. In our stake, increasingly public dialog in women’s conferences, stake and ward council meetings and elsewhere is helping parents to realize that they are more than the collection of their children’s choices.
#11 Nick, sorry not to have mentioned it earlier, but thanks for your perspective, and especially the candid commentary from Savage. Of course we may urge our children to abstain, but we cannot guarantee that they will do so, and it is helpful to have strategies in case they don’t.
Nick,
I owe you an apology. You have made a dramatic shift in your tone and approach and I assumed you would have the same approach.
Will or anyone:
Is this the same Nick Literski? I remember his posts from Mormon Matters on this subject. What change are you talking about?
Henry, you’re right – he hasn’t changed. He’s always been a pretty great guy with insightful comments. I think you’re great too. You hold to your values and stand up for what you believe, and that is great.
Good to see that by the end of the day everyone was civil — #22, appreciate your apologizing.
As for the narcissism, I was channeling Al Anon approaches, which are usually seen as a rejection of narcissism. Sorry that was not clearer.
Thanks again for all the substantive comments, which, all in all, were better than the OP.
Regards,
Stephen
Henry,
Several months ago Nick and I went toe to toe on some issues. I know it’s hard to believe I would push anyone’s buttons, but I have. 🙂
I see, and maybe it’s just me, a more soften approach with Nick. He holds firm on his beliefs, which is find, but is much less argumentative. We can disagree, but not be disagreeable. Although, what he said above makes good sense.
Will:
I see your point and thanks.
Consider the possibility too that he can hang out in gay bars without cruising or mixing with a “rough gay crowd”.
He could be screwing every Tom, Dick, and Harry, but then maybe he’s just making friends with people who aren’t so quick to assume the worst of him.
Val:
Promiscuity, no matter how you paint it, is still promiscuity.
I said making friends. That’s not a gay euphemism for sex.
Let me rephrase:
He could be screwing every Tom, Dick, and Harry, or maybe he’s NOT SCREWING every Tom, Dick, and Harry, but instead just making friends with them.
Nevermind, just assume he’s a sex fiend. We all are, right?
Val:
I get your point. But if my teenager told me he was cruising gay bars, good things do not pop into my head. Another good point to consider.
Val:
The post is asking what would you do/think upon discovering that your teenager is cruising gay bars. Not all reactions are going to be favorable/positive.
The teenager in question did not use the word “cruising”, I will bet my life on it. Nor is it likely that the teenager even said one word about being gay at all.
What most likely happened here is that the teenager was seen in a gay bar and was ratted out and everything else was doomsday conjecture on the parents’ part.
Feel free to contradict me, OP, but I would be shocked if I’m wrong.
Well, the teenager in question told the parents a few years ago that they were having bi-sexual urges and asked for therapy. However, one of the parents has a number of friends who cruise gay bars and venues and saw the kid there engaged in rough activity, details of which will be skipped.
The nineteen year-old kid’s first notice that his parents knew what was up was being referred to a local gay center for safety instruction.
But the post was about what response parents would have and what advice you would give them, not about a specific case that inspired the post. Keep things on topic of trying to be helpful, if you could.
So, Val, rather than assume things (which were false), perhaps you might reframe your advice
That would lend something to the conversation.
Err, “non” not “none” …
Oh please, Stephen. I have spent far too many years of my life thinking that it was possible to persuade someone who is anti-gay of anything to the contrary. So whether my approach “contributes” to the conversation really just refers to whether or not you like how I say what I say. You’re not changing your mind regardless, so forgive me if I could care less if you agree with my approach. It’s besides the point.
But since you are so helpful with writing advice, let me return the favor!
“Well, the teenager in question told the parents a few years ago that they were having bi-sexual urges and asked for therapy.”
And I said that it is unlikely that the child has referred to himself as gay to his parents. Since there is a VERY large gap between admitting bisexual urges and adopting gay identity, my assumption in this case appears to be correct.
“However, one of the parents has a number of friends who cruise gay bars”
I am beginning to think you don’t know what “cruise” means, which would make your opinion a slightly little bit less offensive, so here’s hoping. “Cruise” does not mean hang out, visit, frequent, loiter, etc. Cruise means to go out with the specific purpose of finding someone to engage in anonymous casual sex with. Is that really what her friends are doing?
“and venues and saw the kid there engaged in rough activity, details of which will be skipped.”
Because the details aren’t half as scandalous as you imply, but if you leave it vague, everyone can continue to assume the worst. I like how you half-acknowledge the validity of not assuming the worst while goading people to do exactly that… all in the same post! So which was it? Kissing or fondling? Because anything more graphic than that is extremely unlikely. There are rules when liquor is involved and gay bars receive more law enforcement scrutiny, not less. You are leading people to imagine elaborate gay orgies, when really happens in these places is more along the lines of pecks on the cheek and hand-holding.
“The nineteen year-old kid’s first notice that his parents knew what was up was being referred to a local gay center for safety instruction.”
He found out through a referral? What, in the mail? Please understand how terrible you make these parents sound at communicating with their son.
“But the post was about what response parents would have and what advice you would give them, not about a specific case that inspired the post. Keep things on topic of trying to be helpful, if you could.”
You all can help each other validate your prejudices in the most polite way possible, but I will politely decline.
“So, Val, rather than assume things (which were false),”
What was false? I correctly predicted that the teenager has not declared himself gay, did not admit to cruising, and was outed by someone who observed him at a bar. That is EXACTLY what I said. What did I get wrong?
“perhaps you might reframe your advice”
Perhaps not.
“If all you know is that your kid has been in a gay bar (the OP approach), don’t assume the worst.
In addition to talking with your child in a none accusing, not hostile way (the type of communication the OP suggests) you might …
That would lend something to the conversation.”
And yet, here we are, having a conversation without following your script. Do you mean, rather, that it would conform the conversation to what you want it to be?
Because, well, obviously.
Besides, I’m not giving advice. I’m exposing bigotry. If you want my real advice, there is no way a young gay person can grow up hearing things like “hate the sin and not the sinner” from the pulpit and in their homes every single day and not need decades of therapy to salvage some sense of self-esteem from it. So rather than trying to figure out the exact perfect thing to say to him to make you feel better about yourself, maybe a trust fund for lifetime mental health counseling would be more useful?
Val:
Are you former LDS who is in the lifestyle? I don’t know how else to put it. Sorry. I know the world lifestlye can be offensive to some.
Right or wrong in content, Val, your tone undermines whatever positive effect your comment might have had. (And this is coming from someone inclined to agree with you on this issue.)
You know, out of all the blogs out there, Wheat and Tares seems to be the most tolerant and patient one. I hope that Val can eventually feel this is a good place to come and discuss issues.
Latter-day Guy, normally I’d be inclined to agree, but I’m just so frustrated by the casual judgment of gay people cloaked in words of “love” and “tolerance”. It hurts deeply and I don’t know a better way to make “loving” “tolerant” people understand how hurtful they are than by confronting them with it head on.
If it makes everyone uncomfortable, I can’t help but think that I’m doing it exactly right.
And Henry, yes, I am formerly LDS (son of a Bishop and an RS president and from good pioneer stock) and yes, I am gay. As I am currently single, celibate, have no gay friends, and haven’t been in a gay bar in years, I’m not sure how lifestyle would really even be descriptive. But I am gay.
Val:
Wow. Everyone’s experiences are sure unique. I just hope that whatever you do, be careful out there and protect yourself above all, physically and spiritually.
Val-
I rarely post anywhere any more. I have grown tired of talking past people on the internet. I have found more peace in ignoring the ignorant on this topic. I realize some people enjoy fighting back and trying to change things. If that is you, go for it. For me, I pass. Things will change over time. The process is simply too slow for me to engage in day to day combat.
Spencer Kimball’s teachings show complete ignorance on the topic and yet the church officially published them in pamphlets. The church wouldn’t do that any more. Even Elder Packer’s comments were changed. How that happened we don’t know, but they did get changed. How far the church will change in the future, no one knows, but as they say “it gets better”.
Good luck to you.
Stephen
I think Val has some Validity to his statement. He hates hearing from the pulpit every Sunday love the sinner hate the Sin.
Its’ the same principle people in the church have towards the mentally ill. We have to hear all the time how we don’t have enough faith, or that we are full of Satan. Its’ hurtful and nasty no matter how nicely its’ being said or expressed. Why don’t you give him the benefit of the doubt and accept what he’s saying from his view point. Isn’t that the point of thees OP anyway.
I agree with Val. I even think his aggressive approach is intelligent. I also wonder why, in considering advice for one’s real or theoretical child, one wouldn’t try to understand a person who is being unusually and thankfully honest about the effects of advice that is indirectly harmful. The OP suggested that psychologists are lying about their research into what makes a gay person gay. The OP has provided comfort for themselves “You did not cause it
You can’t control it
You are not to blame.” and then writes about the things that they can ‘control’ in the situation. None of the things listed were the teen’s happiness, and even though ‘control’ is the wrong word… shouldn’t we always try to inject happiness into a child’s life? If our ideas about life never evolve wouldn’t we be living in caves? Or if evolution is not your belief, then wouldn’t we still be uncompromising, zealous murderers? Oh wait. I’m not attacking any one person.
Val is criticizing your advice from a gay person’s perspective in order to help you create better advice. He is, in fact, helping the OP but some are choosing to take personal offense. To those I’d like to remind that this isn’t about you.
I hear you, Val. “Love the sinner, hate the sin” is most often a reflection of what Oscar Wilde said about morality. However, if tremendous suffering (and the rising body count) hasn’t changed minds, I doubt that angry blog posts will. The thing that tends to soften hearts is facing this issue in the lives of loved ones — personal experience, and (all-too-frequent) personal tragedy. But even that slow progress will only be further delayed by putting people on the defensive.
48 Chris, You ask: “Shouldn’t we always try to inject happiness into a child’s life?”
That’s a loaded question for me. And my gut response is to say, no, we should not always do that.
We do not, for instance inject happiness into a five year old’s life by allowing him to eat Cocoa Puffs three times a day.
We do not, for instnace, inject happiness into the 12-year old’s life by telling him he doesn’t ever need to do his homework.
We do not, for instance, inject happiness into our teenager’s life by buying the booze and allowing him to party every weekend.
Why? Because although those things may allow the child to have “fun” (in whatever skewed form the child might view it), those things won’t bring lasting joy, or prepare our child for future success in the world, or even be healthy.
By understanding what is the parents’ to control in this particular question, it helps us to avoid trying to “make” the child (adult in this case) happy. In fact, the child’s happiness is left to him just as it should be.
It is valuable to understand another point of view, and for that Val’s comment does have value, as well, as does yours.
What is likely to lead to the most happiness for child and parents is eventually to find a way for each to share their views openly, and for each to understand the other’s view. They may, in the end, not accept one another’s view. But if they can understand it, that is a step.
By helping parents understand that they are not responsible for the choices of their adult children, it allows the parents to shed a layer of defensiveness that prevents that honest communication. By helping them to understand that they cannot control their adult child’s behavior further helps in that process.
A gay child, when confronted with parents who are willing to talk and listen honestly and openly, is more likely to be honest and open, too (I hope).
My own experience is that opening such lines of communication where there are different moral views between parents and children can take years, but even small progress is progress.
I will not apologize for my tone.
I sincerely believe that most people that throw out that logically inconsistent “I love you, but I condemn you” crap have never been called on it. Not really.
So, I’m calling on it, and hard.
Again, as I said up front, I have no delusions that I will persuade people here one way or another. You can’t unprogram a lifetime of programming through a blog comment. I’m not naive. And certainly not capable of single-handedly slowing down the civil rights movement by just by being a little snippy when people like me are being judged unfairly.
More realistically, I can only hope to add another gay Mormon voice to the internet world so that others like me will know they are not alone.
I could only dream that anything I could say could make a parent more compassionate towards their children, but I long ago realized that the words of a gay man hold less than zero weight in this community, regardless of “lifestyle” choices.
The evidence to that is clear in the comments above me. How many people addressed the actual content of my post and how many ignored it to correct my writing style? I suspect this is what Brian means by talking past people.
So let’s just all establish that this is the tone I use and you’ll either have to get my posts moderated or deal with it.
Paul,
Surely Chris is not advocating that happiness is equivalent to satisfying a child’s every bacchinalian desire?
Do you REALLY and truly think that people who disagree with you think that fun without consequences is how we achieve happiness?
Can you not see how condescending you are? You just spent an essay arguing against a position that no one here even has.
Chris asked a question that I answered, just as you responded to Stephen’s OP making assumptions. Both of us may be wrong.
The balance of my “essay”, however is about improving communication between adult children and their parents when the parents and the children may have moral differences.
Many parents (myself included) have had to cope with this issue, and I think it strikes to the heart of the OP.
Of course one solution is for the parents to get over themselves, ignore their moral compass and embrace a new point of view. Another is for parents and their children to find ways to discuss those differences without the expectation or requirement that either change to conform to the other’s view.
Val:
Do you believe anything about the First Presidency saying:
1. We don’t know why certain things happen in mortality.
2. Same sex attraction was not present in the pre-existence and will not be present after this life.
3. Avoid major transgression such as sexual sin including same sex relations.
4. Have faith in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ but you distance yourself from them if you voluntarily choose to transgress.
5. Out time in mortality is short but eternity is forever.
Val has explained one of my points. No, satisfying every wish of a child does not lead to happiness. It will probably lead to a hedonistic search for fun throughout life, not happiness. Catering to a persons subconscious defense mechanisms will only produce positive results if you obtain from the action a desired behavior. It’s manipulative to do to children, though often the only way, and blatantly disrespective to do it to adults. If we are going to tackle adult topics, let’s put the emotions to the side and decide how to change how we react to gay teens.
Henry,
I’m an atheist.
Val-
That’s where I ended up after confronting this issue and finding the well had no water in it.
Brian,
I struggle to understand how gay people end up anywhere else.
“this is the tone I use and you’ll either have to get my posts moderated or deal with it”
I’m making this into a t-shirt.
Well, I have to say nothing about Val’s posts even comes close to moderation worthy.
On the other hand, as adamf notes, he needs to be careful or this is the tone I use and you’ll either have to get my posts moderated or deal with it will end up on t-shirts and as one of the Wheat and Tares by-lines.
#48 — Chris:
You are missing the point. The whole thing is about telling parents that what they can control is whether or not they treat their children with love.
None of the things listed were the teen’s happiness — nope, but making sure the kid is welcome at home so they sleep safely, making sure the kid knows they can still eat at home, so they will be fed, making sure the kid knows that you are not throwing him to the curb.
I’ll not breach anyone’s privacy by more details, but I understood exactly what I was saying by the terms used. I’m a litigator, but I’ve handled and worked with criminal defense attorneys.
As for The OP suggested that psychologists are lying about their research into what makes a gay person gay. I did more than suggest that blaming a mother for not being nurturing enough as the cause of gayness, or associating it with feminist leanings is harmful, worthless and evil tripe.
Chris, are you really suggesting that all gayness can just be cured by a better father figure in a child’s life, and that grown gays are just acting out their need for truly masculine fathers in their lives? Are you saying I’m wrong to disagree with that sort of thing and call it tripe?
That is the sort of thing floating out there that LDS parents encounter if they seek professional help these days. People sell books, run seminars, etc. The shock therapy for kids and parents is over with, but the replacement approaches are scarcely less brutal.
There is nothing you can tell your child at this point that they have not heard before, other than, maybe, that you really love them. That no matter how shocking, whatever they tell you, you will love them forever, just like Christ does.
I know, you disagree with that statement I made Chris, but what would you replace it with?
Oh, in case anyone doesn’t share history with me, I’ve been on the board of a rape crisis center and been on the board of a child advocacy center. I’m more than familiar with things I would rather did not exist.
But nothing should separate a child from a parent’s love, not height or depth, or dominion (which you might remember from what Paul says will not separate us from the love of God that is in Christ).
“he needs to be careful or … will end up on t-shirts and as one of the Wheat and Tares by-lines.”
Too late. And if he doesn’t like it, then he can just moderate or deal, bro.
When I was 19, my 21 year-old straight friend’s parents were freaking out because they were going dancing at college bars. One was asked to move out of the home because she wouldn’t refrain from doing so, and was allegedly not even drinking at the bars. I know I was carded when going to gay bars, but I was never sneaky enough to have a fake ID.
For me, I disliked being in places where alcohol consumption was the center of the attractions. My anti-alcohol Mormon socialization stuck, even if my same-gender attraction was permanent. I had poor conversational skills which made it difficult to meet people in those settings. I was also intensely fearful of being ‘outed’ and wished to conduct my exploration of the gay scene in anonymity.
So, in a way, I envy the boldness that this young man had at that age to go out and investigate the same-sex attraction head on. When you say rough gay crowd, but don’t give details, my imagination goes a little wild, but I assume it boils down to being in abusive relationships, which thank goodness, I didn’t have the lack of self-esteem which would have kept me from walking away from anything like that.
I wasn’t concerned about being gay at that age, I thought I just happened to be a straight guy that was also attracted to men. After years of wandering and searching, that is the conclusion that I have reached. I never felt that Heavenly Father loved me less, but I knew from limited experience (back then) that my Bishop’s didn’t have the answers for me and had the potential to derail me.
As Nick said, “if your gay teenage son can’t slip into the bar, he may head for more risky venues.” That’s what I did, and kept my activities in the shadows rather than in the light. It’s likely the young man described, however, could have the same interactions covertly within his college drama club that he is having at the gay bar. So, the boldness he is displaying gives the parents an opportunity to reinforce their love and encourage his self- esteem. If he has bi-sexual impulses and he (like my friends who were determined to dance at the straight bars in spite of their LDS upbringing) doesn’t hold to the importance of staying away from alcohol/bars, it may be to his advantage to see where they go now rather than end up hurting himself and others by being in the wrong relationships. I know that this not the LDS answer, but helping him out of abusive relationships is the most important thing to his health right now.
Although I still have same-gender attraction, I’m a happily married, heterosexual sex-loving husband with a realized long-sought vision of being a father. I live a small town, avoid shadowy places, stay very busy, and it has been manageable. This young man’s destiny is likely totally different from mine. He has untapped potential in whatever direction he goes, but will need sustained parental acceptance and support to break the abuse or other self-destructive elements of his behavior that are independent of his same- gender attraction.
Adam, if you do, I’ll buy one.
Jaramiah, why on earth would you assume abusive relationships? Is that really something that can be accurately ascertained by a third-party bystander in a bar?
“I thought I just happened to be a straight guy that was also attracted to men”
Jaramiah – actually, this is more common than many of us have thought… especially so for women. Many straight women fall in love with women, and many lesbian women fall in love with men. While the Kinsey scale, for example, was a major breakthrough at the time, it kind of measures things as either gay or straight or somewhere in between. A more accurate measure today would probably be two separate scales, one to measure the level of same-sex attraction, and one for opposite-sex attraction. Some people score very low on both, and prefer to be called asexual, some score higher on one or the other, or high on both, etc. etc. Anyway, maybe this comment isn’t relevant right now, but I like to promote a move away from the gay vs. straight (with a few in-between) dichotomy. It doesn’t capture reality very well.
Andrew – maybe we should make up some W&T t-shirts, with the best by-lines… Val, mind if we use yours? 😀
Stephen, I would never advocate that homosexuality is curable, I’m sorry you misunderstood. I do not believe that homosexuality needs to be cured. I think the best bet as a parent is to do more than simply inform them you love them and they have a home to sleep in. I think parents should stop judging their children period. I’m not convinced that we disagree on every point, but I believe what Val is suggesting is that by assuring your child that god loves them when they know god is on record as hating them you essentially say…
re 66,
Adam, actually, now that I saw Stephen’s comment, I think that making a W&T byline would be way cheaper.
Actually, both would be pretty cool. Make t-shirts for all the W&T bylines that have been posted ever.
But more on topic, more and more I’ve been considering our binary sexuality a flawed construct — especially with sexual fluidity.
Val,
I’m hazarding a guess, and using the term abusive relationship loosely. Rather than physical abuse, I was thinking of negative peer influence. Pressure to engage in activities that the author of the post considered ‘rough’ by someone who has obtained emotional power over the group. Like I said, my imagination could run wild here and I really don’t want to know the specifics.
The second illustration is a picture of one of the tombstones for my daughters who died, btw.
Chris — I think Nick’s comments (which he quoted from someone else) about being an adult parent are what a parent should do. I make my eleven year old go to bed at night. Are you saying I should stop? I also make her take her medicine for her disabilities. Should I just let it happen as it happens instead?
I think, based on your criticisms of me, we may have less in common than I thought. Though I’m glad that some of the things you criticized (such as my dislike of psychs who say that parental choices control whether or not kids are homosexual, autistic, etc.) you do not disagree with after all.
Andrew — you make some excellent points. I’ve wondered about some of them ever since prison behaviors came up in a similar discussion.
Stephen, you are suggesting that Chris believes you should not provide your child with proper parenting and medical care. That’s gross and insulting. At least we can see that you’re not above adopting my tone. Welcome to the dark side!
Val, I’m asking just what are the parameters of his disagreement with me. While I may mirror people’s tones, I’ve found it doesn’t work as well over the internet as it does in person.
Look at what I wrote, then what he said when he disagreed. We have established that he doesn’t disagree as much as it appears over the way I approach much of psych literature on gayness.
Now I’m curious how far he disagrees with me on where things go with children. How far should one go with the empowerment of children’s choices over what are the duties of a parent to act like an adult.
think parents should stop judging their children period. — where is he taking that point of disagreement? Enforcing bedtimes, medications, and other matters have contrary proponents for what are locally referred to as “free range” children (the “unschooling movement”).
That is different from un abandoned support of hedonism (which he has not embraced).
Where do you stand on those issues? Do you feel it is an issue that can be discussed?
I know, you are trying to be purposefully insulting So let’s just all establish that this is the tone I use but that doesn’t mean that we can’t have real discussions as well.
We do agree that I love you, but I condemn you with a kid will only close down communication. A parent can’t engage in that and communicate the things that need to be communicated once a child is older and a major issue has arisen as it has in this example.
All parents do who who do not listen with love is they teach their child it is not safe to tell the truth
To listen with love in this context (at least for 18-19 year old kids) means you don’t lecture (come on, what kind of lecture can you give them that they have not heard before?), you don’t react with shock or condemnation to anything the kid says (so the kid is going skyclad and mounting the moons as a part of worship services, what can you really say?), you just love them.
Maybe you really do disagree with me. Or maybe you just read into what I’ve written your own extremely painful experiences. In which case, you make the point more strongly, the one I want to I wanted to make about how useless some sorts of communication are.
Oh, right, a discussion on serious ISSUES like how much hedonism is appropriate in parenting! Well then, let’s discuss issues.
Stephen, what is your take on abortion? Are you seriously suggesting that women should get a tax credit for abortions?!
Or immigration. Are you honestly telling us that illegal immigrants should be forced to get forehead tattoos?!
Or defense spending. Are you really saying we should eliminate all humanitarian spending to build more nukes?!
Stephen, do you see how taking an extreme indefensible position and painting it on your opponent is a mean-spirited way of establishing someone else’s opinions?
Especially when it comes from nowhere or better yet, has already been established otherwise. I mean, Chris did say early on that he believes in rules and boundaries for children. Your recent comments do not reflect an awareness of that.
And no, I’m not up for discussing this issue. For one, I have no position on when your kid goes to bed. I could not possibly care less, in fact. Secondly, I believe that you are the one now guilty of derailing the conversation. Third, your past several posts have either about establishing your own moral and intellectual superiority or they have been about publically undermining Chris’s. You are a loving lawyer and father and defender of the innocents while evil gay-loving Chris thinks you should deny your child her medication! I’d rather not have you try to smear my character while reading post after post of how AWESOME you are. Er, I mean, discuss the issues with you!
So no, I will not be joining you in your little straw man parade. I’ve been bullied by enough Mormons to last a lifetime, so I’m hardly inclined to line up to be next in line after Chris. But you could answer any number of my questions that you’ve ignored!
Maybe it’s just me, but I’m just not seeing WHY so many people get into it with Stephen. I mean, really, we have people who are much more prone to “mean-spirited” tones. Can someone help? It’s almost laughable. Stephen, what is it exactly that you’re doing in your comments that infuriates people so much? I’m just not seeing it, sincerely. Although, Val, you did say that this is your regular tone, so maybe my perception is just off. I’m just curious because I have read all of Stephen’s comments and am TRYING hard to interpret them like you do (e.g. #74) and I just don’t get it.
For example:
Pretty calm – if not, Stephen, please correct me.
Also pretty calm – although he did say you were trying to be insulting, but, you DID say that you are intentionally aggressive and what/not, correct? A lot of people called you on it, and you protected yourself, which is fine, and said this is how you are. Great! Sincerely. Carry on.
This one seems pretty reasonable. We’ve all had painful experiences, and you have referred to your own…
What am I missing? Anyone? Val, I don’t mean to point you out specifically, because this has happened with a few other people in the past. I honestly would like to see what it is about Stephen’s commenting style that gets to people, such as yourself. What is going on for you as you read his comments?
Which do you think is more dangerous, the wolf or the wolf in sheep’s clothing?
Which do people need more protection from, an open declaration of hate and intolerance or a subtle one, wrapped in a Trojan horse of love and tolerance?
Plus, Stephen reminds me of my father. My father would mention how good, virtuous, martyred, intelligent, experienced, studied, manly, infallible, he is in every other sentence too. Daddy issues, ya know? We gays have them a little extra.
adamf, I would have said I give people a place where they feel safe to unleash their inner desire to bully. But it may well be I remind him of someone he doesn’t like and he has had enough pain that he can’t avoid projecting.
Though I had to laugh when he said Daddy issues, ya know? We gays have them a little extra. (which is very much the opposite of the limited experience I’ve had with gay co-workers and such). I really doubt that I remind him of his father. I’m no where near manly or infallible, and have not been martyred yet.
You got me, Stephen. Your insinuation that gay people are depraved (“rough” in your words) and de facto promiscuous has lulled me into feeling so safe around you that my bully flag can freely fly.
Because people must feel safe and comfortable around you and anyone who says otherwise is projecting, right? Because you’re JUST THAT AWESOME. Thank you for reminding me. I had forgotten since your last post.
Besides, I didn’t say my father was any of those things, I said he claimed he was. Adam has noted a trend of people taking offense to you across various posts. Any reasonable person would pause to reflect on that. Unless you think you’re infallible. Which you do. Then everyone’s just projecting on you.
And… (deep breath) your anecdotal rebuttal of my daddy issues comment is wasting everyone’s time. A little common sense would tell you that gay men have conflict with their fathers, but if common sense doesn’t get you there, there are myriads of scientific studies that would get you there instead. Your limited experience is clearly too limited to be of any use here and let’s be honest, gay men probably give you a wide clearance anyway.
Re: trend – actually, there has been ONE really weird stalker, and probably 3 people (including yourself) who seem to get into it with him. The stalkers you can do nothing about, but you and the other two people, I’m sincerely trying to figure out.
Also, you called yourself a wolf. I got a kick out of that, thanks. 🙂
Four sounds like a trend to me, but if you want a semantics victory, here, have one. It’s not a trend, just a string of related occurrences.
I did not call myself a wolf, though. Read my post aloud again for better comprehension if that helps. I said that there ARE wolves and wolves in sheep’s clothing. I didn’t even begin to imply that I fell into either category.
Though definitely wolf, if I have to choose.
Not that it matters. If all you’ve got is nitpicking metaphors for some perceived “gotcha” victory against me, then have your little victory. And a gold star, too.
Fascinating. You perceive that I’m in a contest with you, or some kind of “gotcha” struggle that I hope to win?
Also, the “wolf” comment was meant to be humorous (and reading it again, I see what you mean. I can try to be more serious if you like), hence the smiley. Anyway, you have interesting responses… they *seem* aggressive (which is fine! they are funny!).
Super. We’re back to talking about my tone. Guess that means this is running out of steam, eh?
To summarize: Nick Literski had the obviously correct answer a long time ago. Thanks, Nick.
You are not the nice people you think you are. You will tell me that I’m the pot calling the kettle black, but that’s fine. They’re both black.
“Super. We’re back to talking about my tone.”
I apologize, if that’s what it seems like I am doing, or if it is bothering you.
“You are not the nice people you think you are.”
Sorry about that. Sincerely. I believe you are probably a great person. I regret that I don’t seem to be very nice online. I am trying hard to be genuine (e.g. not think I’m nice when I’m really not). I would welcome some feedback on how I could get that across in these blog comments.
Adam, my only issue with you is you keep repeating yourself and your persistent niceness makes me look especially raving in comparison. So I don’t like that, obviously.
My niceness comment was more in reference to the attitude of gay intolerance that pervades the thread. An attitude which I have not seen from you. I recognize that I was unclear, which is especially unfair when making broad character statements.
I will return your apology with one of my own for unfairly lumping you in a category that you have not as yet placed yourself in.
adamf — you are right, I must be doing something. The troll is my fault for criticising her brother. But the others tend to form a pattern, if not quite a trend. When you figure it out, I’d appreciate some advice on avoiding triggering people in the future.
Val — you’ve done an excellent job validating my point that any message to a child in this circumstance, other than love and support, will have negative results without any benefit to the parent or the child.
As for me being nice, I’m a litigator. In Texas. Nice is the last thing that people accuse me of.
BTW, I’m not saying that all, or most or even a significant percentage of any group are “rough” only the behavior in the example.
How so, Stephen? Are you saying that I’m the negative result?
And Val, you haven’t been ravening or that harsh, all in all. Not even close to what it takes to get moderated here.
But, you have seemed to be serious and to mean what you say, even if I think that you are reacting to things you think I’m saying or implying rather than what I said.
You have said some things that were worth saying, and emphasized an important point.
Otherwise I’d have ignored you. You come across as intelligent and literate enough that Adamf is engaging you because he thinks you have something useful to say as well.
No Val, you aren’t the negative result. Your pain is the negative result. Tell me one positive thing that came from the way you talked with your father about your being gay?
Obviously the only useful thing he could have provided you is love, support and listening without judgment or pressure.
That is the final point I was trying to make about how to deal with your kids at the age I was picturing (Nick covered, in the comments, kids at younger ages).
There is nothing new or “special” or magical you can say to your child to change them or alter them in regards to the apparent core issue. Which leaves a parent with doing what a parent should do.
Stephen, AGAIN, you presume the worst in people. My conversations with my father went nothing like you imply. Remember, I said you remind me of him.
For what it’s worth, he followed/follows your approach. And my point, and I made it back at #44, is that there is more than one wrong approach to this and yours hurts too.
So, your father gave you unconditional love and support, but it hurt.
Well, I’m sorry that was the case. Guess there is nothing more I can add.
“Adam, my only issue with you is you keep repeating yourself”
Yeah, I have a tendency to go over and over stuff if it relates to the process or the “how” of things. It’s almost so chronic I annoy myself with it. After so many counseling classes I have a hard time responding to specific content anymore. I just see emotion, relational patterns, themes, etc.
“your persistent niceness makes me look especially raving in comparison. So I don’t like that, obviously.”
I don’t know what to say to that, other than 😀
“reference to the attitude of gay intolerance that pervades the thread. An attitude which I have not seen from you.”
I can’t speak for others, but my sister happens to be gay, and I love her. That relationship has changed me completely.
Stephen – “you are right, I must be doing something… the others tend to form a pattern, if not quite a trend. When you figure it out, I’d appreciate some advice on avoiding triggering people in the future.”
I’m gathering data! It will probably be a little repetitive… that’s what I do. Actually, that’s part of the reason why my “Mormon Marriage Ref” posts came and went so quickly. You’ve seen 2-3 failing marriages you’ve seen them all… at least on the general and cyclical level.
re 80:
Adam, if the one really weird stalker is the same guy I think you’re thinking of,
yeah. I have no idea how Stephen got himself into that mess. Like, I can’t even conceive.
I mean, I have a few e-nemies (haha, e-enemies?) but I understand for the most part what their beef is.
E-nemies! I love that. Did you make that up? That’s um, like so Gossip Girl worthy. Or something.
I literally made it up three seconds ago.
but I’m betting that someone else made it up before me.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=e-nemy
Stephen,
I didn’t say unconditional love and support. I said he followed your approach. You’re the one that labels it such, not me.
I hesitate to even post this because I know you’ll just want to remind me that, no no, you have said WITH YOUR OWN WORDS that you advocate unconditional love and support and then I’ll have to remind you that I’ve already pointed out that my principle beef is that I believe those words are meaningless when you maintain an attitude that your child is a sinner. And hey, guess what, gay kids aren’t stupid. They know “hate the sin but not the sinner” is just another sneaky way to sneak “hate” into another sentence referring to them and it’s offensive.
And then having made a valid point, you will ignore it to start talking about my tone. Or T-Shirts. Or how mystifying my behavior is. Or, you know, whatever.
So we can skip all those posts, right?
I take it as validation of the collective unconscious and of the quotation, “Great minds think alike.”
And my point stands.
I mean, in the definition, it infers that someone has done something to make an e-nemy (e.g., controversial blog)
But Stephen is not that controversial. Especially considering the way he *could* have approached this article.
And then I will jump in and…
Your point about the “hate the sin but not the sinner” saying is totally valid. Actually, I agree with you on that one…
Also, I brought up T-shirts because I think not only do you have valid points, you are funny.
Oh, please feel free to make T-Shirts. I didn’t mind that, just pointing out the frequent detours in the conversation.
Yeah, I haven’t helped with the detours either. For some reason if a thread is 2 days old I think I have free reign to start making shrinky process comments.
that my principle beef is that I believe those words are meaningless when you maintain an attitude that your child is a sinner
That is probably true.
Andrew, Val has a good point that if you use this approach with the attitude that your child is a sinner it will derail things and cause harm. I think he is objecting to what he sees as that message being disguised or promulgated inside of what else I have had to say.
Val, detours in conversation is an important part of this blog.
“detours in conversation is an important part of this blog.”
Another great line for the blog. Is someone writing these down?
So since it’s already been derailed, here’s a question about the phrase: “Love the sinner, hate the sin.”
When you have clearly defined notions about right and wrong behavior for your children, how do you show them love and still believe that what they are doing is wrong?
I think we all have a line somewhere about what is right/wrong. How do you interact with people who have crossed it? Some here (e.g. Val and AdamF) have said that this phrase is hurtful (which is could very well be). But what do you do as a parent/friend?
This isn’t mean to be about a particular location of the line (e.g. teen crusing gay bar), but rather the act of crossing it.
I think the term TBM should be on a t-shirt, I never herd the term until I started following this blog. I think its hilarious
Lol diane, yeah, and then we could come up with a clothing line ad a trademark and call it “TBM TM”
Andrew, I think that’s a good topic to discuss – maybe it needs a whole post. Or here is fine…
I’d love to see a whole post. Not from me though.
If he was kinda into chicks too I’d probably take him to a whorehouse and see if that helped him make up his mind.