In Catholic parishes, church members report feeling that services are “sacramental but lonely.” Protestants decry churches that feel “program-rich, but people-poor,” and synagogues are referred to as “culturally meaningful but socially thin.” I recently saw a text exchange someone posted in which they informed the person reaching out that they no longer attend that church. The other person said “You’ll be back. Everyone always comes back.” That’s when I knew this (probably) wasn’t a Mormon texting an ex-Mormon. This was actually an Evangelical text chain.
Twenty years ago, I was having a conversation with a higher ranking executive at American Express who was Indian-American. He had asked how my move from state to state for my promotion was going, and when he realized that I was Mormon, he smiled and said, “Oh, then you will have it very easy. I always admire the Mormons for their sense of community. You move to a new place and have an instant new family surrounding you, people to care for your kids, friends to help you move, neighbors to give you advice about businesses and restaurants. You have a built-in group of people you can trust. It’s like the Indian immigrant community! We take care of each other.”
And to some extent, that’s still true. The people who watch our pets when we travel are neighbors from the Church. Just last month I attended the wedding for a friend of my daughter, someone I drove to early morning seminary several times a week, and most of the wedding attendees, including the caterers, were people we knew from Church when we lived in that area. Our daughter’s friend who was raised non-religious was a little surprised at how many people at the wedding knew us well and considered us friends. They shared stories about us, knew our kids’ stories, and knew where we had moved.
Many who leave the Church say it’s easy to find new community connections–political groups, book clubs, the PTA, neighborhood meet-ups–but it’s not really that easy, IMO. For one thing, I’m a bit of an introvert. For another, people are irritating (that could be the introversion talking). Political polarization has also taken its toll. The other thing is that my interests are idiosyncratic. The book club I belong to (which is really full of brilliant people) is virtual. None of them live in my city. When I was in JASNA, the local chapter was good, but not very active, and Phoenix is spread out.
There was a recent discussion on Reddit that included many salient points about why the sense of community in the church is not what it used to be. Critiques include:
- Temple attendance is individualistic and does not build community. Yet it seems to be the main focus of today’s church. Those who don’t enjoy the temple, which is not a small percentage of church members, may find this irrelevant to them. Many jaded former Mormons see this as a “tithing grab” by leaders, forcing members to “pay to play.”
- Ditching scouts made YM activities not as involved or interesting. Welcome to the YW problem, but without the benefit of women who’ve been socialized to build community! Apparently boys need a fake military to create structure for social interaction.
- Service projects used to be something to bring church members together, but now many are jaded about the Church’s for-profit ventures. Some object to cleaning the Church when it displaced paid low-income earners (janitors), and others object to it on the grounds of paying 10% of their income to a multi-billion-dollar entity only to be asked to clean toilets. Charity needs to feel like it has a purpose, a greater contribution to humanity.
- Artistic activities like roadshows, pageants and “Super Saturdays” were ditched by current leadership for reasons we may never know–lack of interest? liability? Nelson thinks they’re not utilitarian enough? It feels on some level like we are in a Soviet era of architecture, but spiritually. I’ll never get over the fact that our RS book club that was so exciting and well attended was completely quashed when the bishop, whom nobody asked, stepped in and insisted that all books be “church books” from then on. After one more meeting, the club ended due to lack of interest. Even some of the men in the ward wanted to do our own book club and just make it a non-church thing.
- There used to be a belief that after a lifetime of paying tithing, you would have financial stability even if you fell on hard times. Not so, according to story after story on the internet. People are told they get a week of meals from the RS (paid for by the individual members, not the ward). Some with medical problems have been told they can’t be helped due to liability concerns. Others have been told they can only be helped in a limited way and after an extensive personal audit of their assets, including going through their cupboards for them to make a shopping list. These types of humiliations and limitations make it clear that like the Roach Motel, tithing checks in, but it doesn’t check out. It’s an insurance policy that doesn’t pay.
- The invisible and disappearing work of women. Women are too busy and tired to keep putting all the unpaid and unrecognized personal effort into making church activities work. Women are quiet quitting, as Elisa has blogged, and even if they weren’t doing it quietly, they don’t really have a voice anyone in power has to listen to anyway. “We need your voices. They need to be heard. They need to be heard in your community, in your neighborhoods, they need to be heard within the ward council or the branch council. Now don’t talk too much in those council meetings, just straighten the brethren out quickly and move the work on.” Elder Ballard
One commenter mentioned their view that Church hinged on two things: 1) truthfulness of the claims, and 2) personal relevance. The personal relevance factors included things that make life tangibly better: friends, social group, child care, sports, arts, and financial safety net. These are all things that are in the cross-hairs when church is reduced to Sunday worship or too much emphasis is placed on individualistic things like the “covenant path” or temple attendance.
Additionally, there is a tension between community and orthodoxy/orthopraxy. When we focus on “right” thinking or belief, that means we have to be vigilant against “wrong” thinking or belief to protect the purity of the group. When we focus on “right” behavior, we find “wrong” behavior a threat to the community. And once we start policing others, we stop being friends.
It seems to me that these types of discussions tend to focus on what the Church has done wrong or what individual leaders didn’t see coming (hey, when you throw around words like “prophet” as liberally as we do, you’re going to catch some strays for lack of foresight). But what’s also true is that these are not trends that are unique to the LDS church. They seem to be societal trends, and weirdly enough, the Mormon Church is still more cohesive than other church communities, even if the Church sense of community has eroded substantially.
Most Churches are losing the younger generation. Conservative churches are losing women, who are tired of being asked to run things under male oversight without having any real say in church governance or policy. They have also been pretty universally rocked by scandals of sex abuse coverups (perhaps I’ll do a post on why conservative churches have a harder time dealing with these issues). These same churches are losing families and members over anti-LGBTQ policies or perceived political partisanship in culture wars. Mainline protestant churches, who don’t have these same issues, are also losing the younger generation as distrust of institutions increases. Younger people don’t know what they are going to be missing out on, but they also don’t want to spend the time to figure that out. People want community, but they are wary of the strings that are attached.
Unlike many denominations, the LDS church has a strong framework that is hard to shake due to the localized aspect of wards and the participatory expectations of callings (vs. a paid clergy), but these strengths are being stretched beyond their limits for many church members and families.
- How strong do you think LDS church community remains compared to other churches? Compared to its own past?
- Do you see these trends eroding all churches equally or some more than others?
- Do you think the LDS church has a better framework for withstanding these shifts or is it hitting the same exact roadblocks?
Discuss.
Wheat & Tares 
On the one hand, I agree with your Indian-American friend. There is still a “we take care of each other” feeling in the Church, depending a little on which country, city, and stake/ward you are in. It might be a generational thing, too — younger couples with kids likely have more contact and engagement with similarly situated couples in the ward, older couples generally not so much. I think lots of older couples ask themselves, where did all our friends go?
On the other hand, some of the bullet points ring true. Yes, “boys need a fake military to create structure for social interaction.” Yes, bishops don’t like book clubs or any other quasi-ward club or gathering; they’d rather have you sit at home and watch Netflix than have clandestine meetings with other members (that’s how they see it). And yes, women are busier and can’t (or don’t want to) provide a bunch of free service hours to prop up the ward. Men are busier, too.
It’s not just an LDS thing. See Robert D. Putnam’s 2000 book Bowling Alone: The Decline and Revival of American Community. He cites double-career families, suburbanization and long commutes, TV (and let’s extend that to 21st-century online entertainment), and generational change as primary factors.
I criticize the COJCOLDS here as much as anyone else but I really think Dave B.’s last paragraph deserves extra attention. I’m not sure there’s anything Church leaders can do to restore the LDS community that many of us felt in the 70s and 80s. Yes, the LDS experience was different (and better) back then but so was US society. I compare my childhood experience to that of my kids (who grew up in the 2000s and 2010s) and here’s some basic observations:
1. more women are working so they are unavailable to handle things like day-time Primary activities
2. more kids are playing organized competitive sports which require greater time commitments, so they are unavailable for outside activities
3. more entertainment is available at home (think video rentals / streaming via big screens) which keeps all of us from going out as much
4. the invention of the Smart phone has replaced various social interactions we used to take for granted
5. The Boy Scouts of America collapsed under it’s own weight as the culture changed. Also, the organization was infested by sexual assault.
The COJCOLDS is not faultless. LDS leaders have gutted a lot of the great programs that many of us grew up with. But I wonder if we allow our sentimentality to cover up the bigger issue: US culture has changed and no church organization in 2025 can duplicate the church experience of 1975 or 1985.
We’ve moved twice for my job and both times the church was the structure that saved us. It probably would be again if we decided to do it again.
Culture always changes, but the negative spill over effects are still worth reviewing. For me one of the changes I didn’t expect was how much I miss 3 hour church. I’ve noticed in the intervening years how much I’ve missed connecting with the other men and women in the ward.
Finding friends as adults is hard all over the place, the NYT knows: “Where have all my deep male friendships gone” by Sam Graham-Felson posted on May 25. How timely! I feel like an island at church and I have a calling where I’m supposed to be interacting with other adult men as we work to serve the YM in our ward. Making deep connections is so frustratingly difficult. It’s an everywhere problem.
Also, the Elder Ballard link isn’t working. I can’t believe (I can believe but it makes me sick) that he said that! So I clicked through to read it. This is from the person who wrote the treatise Counseling with our Councils. Whoops.
I think you’re spot on about the decline of community in the Church, Hawkgrrrl, and about some of the big causes. A striking comparison is how much the Church spends on building temples versus chapels. I wrote a blog post a couple of years ago on this; someone on Reddit named xanimyle made a cool graph showing the ages of church buildings that they scraped from the Church’s site. There’s been a precipitous decline that’s entirely out of line with the rush to build temples. See here: https://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2023/11/08/chapel-vs-temple/
I also think you and Dave are right that the loss of community is part of a larger trend. I recently read Émile Durkheim’s classic book on suicide, and he said he was motivated to write it by the dramatic increase in the suicide rate during the 19th century. I wonder if what we’re part of now is just the latest in a long-running trend of urbanization and community breaking as we’ve gone from living among people we know to living among strangers. I get frustrated with RMN’s disinterest in community-building, but it’s good for me to remember that he’s probably a symptom of the problem rather than a cause.
I appreciate Hawkgrrrl making a post on this topic. My observation is that the corporate LDS leadership has become, well, corporate. They want member loyalty to the church but in their perspective, the church is the product the corporate leadership is selling. The leadership has no respect for the church the members desire or have nostalgia about.
There used to be a cadre of LDS leaders who cared about tradition and nostalgia – L Tom Perry and Thomas Monson were two of the biggest I can point to. Gordon Hinckley also strongly believed in the power of the narrative of the “pioneer church”. When these leaders died, no one replaced them. Presidents Nelson and Oaks, in particular, seem to have zero nostalgia and zero appreciation for human socialization. Nelson is all about personal covenants and Oaks is all about one-direction loyalty of members to the church, with the church having no loyalty to the member.
I don’t think nostalgia for the past is the answer. But the current LDS church seems to operate with the presumption that it has no obligation to invest in the social and cultural experience of church members. I think this is a poor decision that is weakening the church and the emotional ties of members to it.
Concerning Tithing and centralization of church finances, there is an additional risk. When I had my growing children, I was able to rationalize that the church provided real benefits in return for my financial commitment to it. The church not only provided substantial social activity but it held the promise that my kids could go to a church school at a great discount to the prevailing market price. But now my children are grown and the church social program has been greatly reduced. In addition, BYU-Provo has become much more selective and the BYU-Idaho program, although an excellent value, is not the same. So now I ask, what do I get in return for my Tithing? Not only does the church provide no financial security, it apparently is going to pester me to take on even more financial sacrifice by going on a mission! Meanwhile, my more elite LDS peers are literally paid for their church service!
I recognize that for many mission presidents it is a financial sacrifice for them to serve, but they are financially compensated! Why does the church expect senior missionaries to pay their own way to serve a mission when at the same time it is willing to cover costs for the “president”? Why does the LDS program treat its members differently based on title? Is that not contrary to the principle of “having all things in common”?
The church under Nelson is clearly making a big shift in focus toward the temple. That is an inherently less social endeavor than what it is displacing. It’s going to take a while to understand the effects of all this on the community. Maybe people’s habits around temple attendance evolve to add social elements, but I for one have never made much of an effort to participate in ward temple nights, for example, so I’m skeptical.
I think it’s a loss that the church has given up so many things that were important to me socially when I was growing up. My college-age kids continue to attend (for now), but their attachment to it seems weaker than mine did at their age. We’ll see where this goes for them as they move into adult life. As far as how the LDS church is doing relative to other denominations, I still feel a sense that maybe they are doing a little better. For as weird as it may seem to an outsider at first glance, the “gender segregated Sunday School” that we still have twice a month I think provides something that for men in particular is hard to find anywhere else. Maybe women too, but I have no personal experience there. I have found the unique environement of Elders’ Quorum meaningful at various points in my life, but it does somewhat depend on the group I’m with.
This is a pithy observation by Hawkgrrrl:
“It feels on some level like we are in a Soviet era of architecture, but spiritually.”
I concur. The church’s preferred spiritual architecture in the Nelson-Oaks era strikes me as brutalist. It is trying to use the concrete of covenants to erect large projects into which church members can be steered and sheltered from what it sees as a dangerous and hostile outside world. But the resulting structures are cold, gray, and sterile. There is little curbside appeal. Inside, the rooms, hallways, and lobbies all have the same nondescript design; the glare of the ubiquitous fluorescent lights chase away any textures that shadows would offer; and the residents fret endlessly about paying rent, renewing leases, and complying with all the building’s many covenants, conditions, and restrictions so they are not reported to management and evicted.
So many right angles now. We are becoming all square and no compass.
“Temple attendance is individualistic and does not build community. Yet it seems to be the main focus of today’s church. ”
Yeah because this is the only way they can keep members in check and also get a check.
While requiring money from members they’re also gutting the ward budgets. So you want a Christmas program, on top of giving your 10% you now have to bring food to the event while the church may pay for the ham. That’s after you’ve spent your time going to church, meetings, mutual, seminary, other service projects and now you get to cook…
Yeah, no thanks…
but thanks to Grant Palmer for helping me cut the theological ties to the church.
My wife and I moved to Colorado 4 years ago after 30 years in Southern California. We have found a wonderful community centered around new friends from Church. Outside of standard Church activities, we have a monthly Empty-nesters dinner group, book clubs, lunch brunch, hiking group, movie nights all consisting mainly of church members but also other friends.
We serve in the temple. I just returned from a fly-fishing trip with a brother I met in the temple. My wife and I spent two weeks in New Zealand and Australia with the couple she rides to the temple with twice a week. Every month a group of temple workers meets for dinner together after our shift.
We have not seen nor experienced the “gutting of Mormon community”. We both consider ourselves introverts and shy. We enjoy our Mormon community.
I think the point that the world has so significantly changed on this point – fewer stay-at-home moms to run kid activities during the day, more organized sports so less time for other stuff – is a valid one, but it doesn’t let the Church off the hook.
At all.
This isn’t happening out of passive neglect. The gutting is a vigorously proactive effort. These community building activities aren’t just withering on the vine; they’ve been hewn down and cast into the fire.
There’s a lot of real estate between the ‘Church-is-the-center-of-my-whole-world” model from the 70s and 80s and the “Church-is-temple-temple-temple-and-boring-lessons-only” model that we now have, but Nelson has driven us across all those vast swaths of middle ground and plopped us down into this boring pile of Sunday School sludge that is the sum total of the Church experience for the rising generation.
And then they’re wondering “Golly, why are so many people leaving?” Because you’ve given them no reason to stay other than fear and shame, which just don’t work anymore. Brad Wilcoxian fear of “losing everything that matters” doesn’t work when there’s no community to lose, and what you are losing – guilt trips, mind-numbing meetings, brain-dead lessons, not mention institutionalized misogyny and bigotry – are things every person in their right mind would be happy to lose.
I just finished reading Lessons, the semi-autobiographical (with a LOT of liberties I should add) novel by Ian McEwan. His main character, an atheist like the author, makes the observation that as he ages, he realizes that his refusal to join in a hymn due to lack of belief is to miss the point. You don’t participate in music because you believe, you do so to join something greater than you are. Part of the problem can be that the church can at times seem smaller than I am (e.g. smaller minded). But whenever you join with other people, there is a power to community that we miss without it.
Temple attendance is individualistic and does not build community.
Sure, temple attendance is individualistic in the sense that we are all issued invisible cones of silence at the recommend desk that we remain in until we leave. But sealings and the content of the endowment are anything but individualistic.
1. It is in the temple that we are introduced to the concept of the “blood and sins of this generation”–a distinct contrast to our discourse outside of the temple, which focuses, per the 2nd AoF, on our “own sins”. (If you don’t understand the concept of “blood and sins of this generation”, you’re not paying attention to what’s happening in the world.)
2. In the endowment, most of the covenants are made by “you and each of you”–the latter clearly referring to individuals, but the first “you” implying a collective covenant.
3. The Law of Consecration explicitly refers to the establishment of Zion, which the scriptures make clear is the opposite of an individualistic libertarian paradise (e.g., “no poor among them”).
4. The non-individualistic nature of sealing speaks for itself. You literally cannot perform the ordinance for one individual.
The problem is, nobody ever teaches this stuff. Why? Because when it comes to the content of the temple ceremonies, we keep the cone of silence on after we leave. For certain aspects of the ceremony, that is appropriate, but for the stuff I listed above, it really isn’t. Elder Bednar in particular has encouraged us to talk more about the content of the temple ceremony–he even listed the key covenants by name and in order during a conference talk. Nobody did that in my day. Too many people are still afraid to do it. Let’s see if we can start a Church-wide conversation about the blood and sins of this generation and the collective nature of Consecration. Perhaps once we been taught those correct principles, we can begin to govern ourselves when it comes to creating community.
I agree with what others have said. The community is no where near what it used to be. This is due partially to changes in society, and also because our inspired leaders have also implemented changes that made it worse instead of implementing changes to make it better.
And also, the church community still exists and is stronger than a lot of other communities (with a bit of ward roulette). I live overseas, and each time I’ve moved to a new country it has been super beneficial to show up at church and have people invite us over for dinner and help us to navigate the new country. Although the young men’s program is not as good as it used to be, my kids enjoy going to youth activities and getting together with their friends.
As I’ve changed beliefs, I’ve made a conscious effort to make friends and have a community outside of church, and it’s gone well but it’s taken real effort with inconsistent results. I’ve concluded that it’s really nice to just be able to show up at church and have that community be built in (even if the relationships are somewhat shallow- I still think it’s beneficial to have those shallow relationships and people that you can reach out to if you need to borrow a tool, or need a ride, or want to meet up with for a Turkey Bowl).
I’m in the camp that everyone collectively moving on from all the little community building church activities is the cause for the decline of church programs. We all get online and mourn the loss of road shows, scouting (the positive parts of it), personal progress, youth basketball and ward camp outs. But do you want to go to the road show? Do you want to be in it? Are you going to sign up to be in charge of it? Wasn’t scoutmaster the most dreaded calling in the ward? Have you ever tried to get someone to referee a YM basketball game? (Because I have.) Do you want to plan the ward camp out?
In my corner of the world, everyone is too comfortably middle class, and is too busy working to fund their hobbies. Ward camp outs aren’t any fun when you have your cabin in Montana, or your 35 foot trailer to take to the lake. Between marching band, the HS mountain biking team, dance classes and travel baseball, people have found things they would rather do than the orienteering merit badge. I don’t know how the church could compete with everything going on. Kids are booked, and parents are booked taking their kids places. People without kids travel too much. Collectively we looked around and found things to do that are more interesting than church ever was.
I readily acknowledge that not every ward is like my suburban Utah ward. There are a lot of diverse situations out there. But whether they are trips to Greece, or just Netflix, I think we found better options that just didn’t exist when I was a kid and there were only 4 TV stations.
I think there is a bit of privilege showing in these comments about how people are choosing other activities over church activities. I grew up doing church sports and roadshows because we couldn’t afford to play in leagues or take dance/music lessons. The ward camp out was the only camp out we could afford to do each summer. I think there is a significant proportion of members in this category but since that group is never in leadership, their needs are not realized.
I think Bubbles makes a valid point.
@DaveW, I’ve been involved in many of those activities and would be happy to be so involved again. They are my favorite memories of my Church activity, and it breaks my heart toseem them dead. I could find dozens of fellow ward members who feel the same. Your comment presumes that we don’t do roadshows and campouts because nobody wants to, and that’s simply not true. We have been actively precluded from doing those things. This is coming from the top down, not the bottom up.
Case in point: the canceling of all Church pageants. People loved those. Generations of members participated in them. People were falling all over themselves to volunteer for them, and there was no shortage of people eagerly willing to do anything and everything, free of charge, to make them happen. People traveled cross country and flew in from overseas to see the Hill Cumorah and Manti pageants, and for some, it was an annual tradition. When the Church pulled the plug on them, there were social media campaigns, online petitions, and discussions among community groups proposing alternative ways to continue them independently. But to no avail – the Church actively quashed those efforts, and now beloved traditions that people have cherished for decades are gone for no valid reason at all.
The lack of community is a deliberate, purposeful goal of Church leaders. It is not turning out well for them.
Post-COVID I have seen a lot of efforts in my corner of Salt Lake County to rebuild fellowship in my ward, often just a Sunday night meetup at the neighborhood park for cookies and such. Hard to do at the building at 10am/1130/1:00 with another ward starting at 1030/1200/1:30.
A month ago the ward did a youth fundraiser and apparently did better than expected. Women (and dudes) who know, will get that money spent for the purposes intended before the Gordon B. Hedge Fund asks for a deposit.
I need to ask these community questions to my Methodist relatives in the Midwest the next time we are together.
I’ve lived in Cairo, Istanbul, and Washington DC. The former two cities had small branches with expats. The DC Mormon community is huge. The church had a built-in community that you just latch onto. It was great. It was easy to find people with shared experiences. Mission, BYU, Utah, the whole gamut. This was in the 2000s. Things have changed since then. I feel like back then LGBTQ+ acceptance was at its inception. It was still acceptable to be against same-sex marriage (now it’s simply unthinkable). The ex-Mormon community was pretty disconnected and didn’t have a huge online presence. Conservative and liberal weren’t hugely divided. Globally, the Cold War was over (at least so we thought). The world seemed to sympathize with the US over 9/11.
Now, however, the ex-Mormon community has expanded. I just discovered Alyssa Grenfell’s YouTube channel. She’s really taking off. Liberals and conservatives have grown a chasm between them. Trumpism has infested the pews. Plus, church is shorter, there are fewer activities, and home teaching is gone (ministering barley feels like it exists). It’s not the same. I miss the good ol’ days in many ways.
Where I live, the community still exists, though not nearly to the depth and breadth it did in years past. If you ask, you can probably get 2 or 3 guys to show up to help you move, as long as you schedule it far in advance. If you have a new baby though, you might not get meals brought to you, because that privilege was abused in our ward a few years ago and it never fully resumed.
One aspect of the decline of Mormon community that hasn’t yet been mentioned is the fact that many of us participated in the Church’s programmatic offerings because we felt we had to–that our salvation depended on it, whether we enjoyed the activity or not. This was especially true if it was tied to a Church calling (YM/YW/Scouting/RS etc.) whereby refusal to participate was tantamount to defiance of God. Many of us grew up with zealous parents who projected this coercion upon us as kids. Nowadays, because of broader cultural shifts (including the gradual dilution and loss of relevance of Church authority), rank-and-file Church members are more likely to have healthier boundaries with their finite personal time, energy and resources, and can afford to be more selective about their participation. We are allowed to view our bishops as well-intentioned human beings now, rather than local Judges in Israel who must never be disobeyed. And I believe a major contributing factor to the collapse of LDS scouting is the fact that it relied on uncommitted, reluctant leaders who had no interest in building vibrant, sustainable local programs. If the loss of community is a symptom of members’ increased personal autonomy and self-determination, then it’s not such a bad thing, and maybe we should be more suspicious of communities built on coercion and manipulation.
For example, I was in roadshows and dance festivals as a youth, even though I disliked those things, and was chastised by parents and leaders when I asked to not participate. All the other kids seemed to eat that stuff up, so I was made to feel like I my Mormon programming was defective and I didn’t belong. Later, I participated in a Mormon pageant in my area–not as a performer, but working behind the scenes in an area that was well-suited to my interests and skills–and absolutely loved it, especially because it was voluntary and I was surrounded by dedicated, talented people who were also uncoerced, voluntary participants. I also mourn the unnecessary loss of LDS pageants; though they were a source of community, they happened infrequently, and existed outside of the context of our wards and stakes and the fellow members therein with whom we interact weekly, all year round.
I was in the last cohort of youth that had roadshows, after which youth pioneer treks started becoming a thing (so happy I never had to do one of those!). These days, my artsy-creative teenage daughter probably would have enjoyed roadshows and similar offerings if they were still happening, but has already made it clear that she would sooner die than put on a bonnet and pull a wagon, no matter how many of her friends are doing it too. I can’t help but think there must be some coercive forces still at play in getting participation for these youth activities, as I can’t imagine what kind of teenager finds treks appealing. I suppose you could go a long way toward building community by giving people choices (and respecting those choices), but that requires a lot more organization, and most people are choosing enriching activities outside the Church anyway.
I imagine RMN to be the curmudgeonly type who always resented Church social activities, especially as an overwhelmed young father, who probably believed that Church was strictly for worship and not recreation. Similarly, I once had a stick-in-the-mud bishop long ago who decided to make a ward rule that there was to be no talking or socializing in the chapel before or after sacrament meeting, for “reverence” or whatever reason, and members were expected to shuffle silently through the hallways to the next class. It didn’t last, because people have a fundamental need to connect, and RMN still doesn’t quite understand this, so he emphasizes temple attendance as if it were the only reason to want to be in this Church anymore. Regardless of the cultural winds, or even the efforts of local wards and stakes, the institutional Church bears plenty of responsibility for hollowing out the sense of community they once had.
I was in Argentina last year for work and my colleague treated us to a River Platte soccer game. The crowd was amazing. They sang all through the game and his tickets were in a section his family has had season tickets for years. Everyone around us knew the songs and each other. It was everything I wished I had at church, plus it was a riotous good time.
My neighborhood in the Midwest has maintained a community pool since the 1960s. It becomes a focal point every summer with a neighborhood swim team and activities. Getting a dog that needs a ton of exercise means I now walk every morning and after noon and people know alert the dogs name.
I was scared to leave the church for risk of losing the community support and friendships, but I think that it also was getting in the way from me really joining a community that was all around me the whole time that I didn’t have time for before leaving.
I think the church does and could bring value as a community of believers, but it also preaches that the members are set apart and a peculiar people that are not in or of the world. I think it may be over selling the community kit value it is generating as it separates the members from the work around them.
Temple seem to be about community building about as much as movie theaters, mortuaries, or upscale motels (which they closely resemble).
I am unsure how to respond to this idea that the LDS community has been gutted. I don’t see it. Every one of my kiddos played church ball, though often poorly. The other kids accommodated them. My youngest is 19.
I got an invitation to a ward campout this week. I get invites to RS parties all the time. My ministering sister keeps in touch, and I have taken mine to lunch. It’s as much or more socialization than I want. In fact I often duck out of church and avoid 2nd hour, for a variety of reasons.
I have always enjoyed friendships with nonmembers as well. Right now I am really enjoying friendships I made initially on line. It’s a great way to find another person with similar interests.
I miss the ward I was in before they combined wards, but I think that was for many reasons that have nothing to do with changes in the world wide church.
We switched to a local troop and all my kiddos got their Eagle. My youngest stayed close friends with them when he stopped attending church.
Maybe we have abandoned the church to an extent and that’s why I don’t see any real changes. There’s too many opportunities for me to use them all.
So after decades of complaining that the church is asking too much of our time, now that it asks less it’s time to complain about lack of social activities? A few years back I had a conversation with a branch member who said, “The Branch needs to host a few more activities.” Then he paused for a second, realized what he said, and finished with, “Not that I would attend them if it did.”
My wife and I have thought about feedback our children’s school teachers have given us about our kids. For many of the positive things they’ve mentioned, we’ve attributed it to church attendance. Most kids who don’t have to get up somewhat regularly to recite a scripture or give a talk in Primary, or prepare a lesson for Young Wo/Mens, are missing a skill set that most active church attending kids just pick up.
I know that I feel too busy to socialize at church. I know some parents sit around the building while Mutual is happening. Not me, I drop off on time, I pick up on time, and I have other places to be, no time for talking.
To steal a phrase from Dr Phil, the church couldn’t do a better job in destroying community if it tried to.
Let’s not forget that in the 90’s RS homemaking changed from homemaking – and general service to “PERSONAL, home and FAMILY Enrichment” – shifting away from community and to the individual. The RS theme at that time essentially echoed the YW PERSONAL Progress- theme. Away from “charity never faileth” a completely external focus, to a completely self-centered one.
So- the organization became all about uplifting and improving YOU. I think it was meant to be spa-like and supportive of women, but there’s only so much lazer-focused self-help someone can take before it feels overwhelming and like a constant microscope on your faults. And hallow- neglecting the millennial zeal we had to eradicate poverty, sickness and hunger.
Many have mentioned the ripping away of cultural activities (road shows, sports, scouts, bazaars, etc.) It happened at BYU too- under Oaks. Several cultural programs were cancelled and the reason given was that they were not on message-not on point – they were seen as superfluous to the 4 missions of the church.
Leaders get bonus points for refocusing the organization on priorities. And social activities and the arts were deprioritized by quorums of elderly men – none of whom were craftsmen or artisans or psychologists. They were all businessmen- the bean counters and introverts of life who had little use for the arts or community.
Following business models that stomped out community during the Industrial Revolution to increase worker/factory productivity, they snuffed out joy, arts, and leisure in favor of work. Even our ward boundaries and composition get ripped up regularly as we are seen as pawns to be moved around for efficiency’s sake. And look what happened! It turns out that people are not cogs and that quality relationships are permanent, not transitory. it turns out that the arts were the heartbeat of community, arts create relevance- not the other way around.
(Coincidently, the current US administration is doing the same thing- pulling the plug in PBS, NPR and seizing control of the Kennedy Ctr and several other artistic venues.) And President Nelson has cleverly controlled the arts. He started by correlating all art in LDS foyers, then the art in the temples, and is redoing the hymnal to be on-point. But I think corporate leaders do not see that arts create relevance, not the other way around. We should be creating, not consuming mass messages (propaganda?) in the form of art.
Lastly, I’d point out that Mormonism, as it has exploded in size and “evolved” in corporate efficiency, shifted away from a participatory and egalitarian community to a hierarchy of producers and consumers. We were once all needed- we had roles to play as builders, creators, etc. Now everything comes out of LDS Inc. – prepackaged for us. Even our temples are shipped to us prefabricated. Community isn’t needed – we (the rank and file) are a problem the church office building people have to manage and solve for. They need our conformity, not our individualism or community.
Mortimer: Slow clap. That comment is a perfect distillation of a problem that is not unique to the church, but the church is a great example of it. It’s also related to the idea that we pay tithing, but we have no say in how tithing funds are used. The membership is the church, but the church leaders see the membership as an entity, a concept, and not individuals. Another way to put that last one is “They can correlate the manuals, but they can’t correlate my thoughts!” Unfortunately, they have successfully correlated a lot of people’s thoughts using what you refer to as mass-produced “messaging” or propaganda. It’s not the same as belonging to a community of believers, neighbors, well-wishers. If it’s a ward “family,” it’s a dysfunctional one that doesn’t allow its members to grow or express their true feelings or views or share experiences that don’t conform to a specific narrative.
When you point out “Even our ward boundaries and composition get ripped up regularly as we are seen as pawns to be moved around for efficiency’s sake,” to me, this is even more damaging than the loss of activities, artwork, or uncorrelated expression of members. It destroys people’s ties to the church and to each other, and it is done without any care whatsoever to those ties that are being torn apart. On the contrary, it’s like some kind of blind loyalty test, similar to early morning seminary or garments. If you put up with it, you’ll put up with anything.
“People want community, but they are wary of the strings that are attached.”
Huh. I kind of think “strings attached” is part of the definition of community. Otherwise it’s not so much a community as it is provision of services
I have observed with sadness the weakening of our ward communities for some time now. I believe that the temple is picking up some of the slack. Going to the temple is, to be sure, individual. But working at the temple: that is a community affair. In the place of bishops we have “shift coordinators.” Some of these shifts are quite close. A friend of mine who is a shift coordinator (with over 100 people) has told me about the social things he is doing with those in his shift.
Going to the temple: Individual
Working in the temple: Communal
This of course means that your community is much more narrowly construed. All are temple-recommend-holding members, and all are people who like temple worship. Its not a highly diverse group, but it can be a close-knit group.
I have observed with sadness the weakening of our ward communities for some time now. I believe that the temple is picking up some of the slack. Going to the temple is, to be sure, individual. But working at the temple: that is a community affair. In the place of bishops we have “shift coordinators.” Some of these shifts are quite close. A friend of mine who is a shift coordinator (with over 100 people) has told me about the social things he is doing with those in his shift. He knows about their health issues; visits them at times of crisis, the group prays for and helps each-other.
Going to the temple: Individual
Working in the temple: Communal
This of course means that your community is much more narrowly construed. All are temple-recommend-holding members, and all are people who like temple worship. Its not a highly diverse group, but it can be very close-knit. And is a group that for a number of reasons, both practical and substantive, I will not likely join.