There are mainstream Mormons who dutifully march off to church every week, believing most of what they are taught while silently giving a prayer of thanks to God that it’s only two hours long now instead of three. There are non-attending Mormons (who may or may not have formally terminated their membership) who guiltlessly read any book they want to and find something else to do on Sunday. And then there are those somewhere in the middle, who attend to some degree, *not* believing much of what is taught, possibly enjoying the sense of community in their congregation but possibly feeling little or no remaining sense of community with the mainstreamers who fill the LDS pews. This last group are those who persist. Maybe they stubbornly persist. Maybe they do so reluctantly. But they’re still around. This post is for those who persist.
This post follows two recent posts mulling over the plight of Middle-Way Mormonism and the role of blogs, one at BCC and one here at W&T. Both are well worth reading and sort of introduce my discussion. I’m trying to look at a somewhat narrower topic that will hopefully complement rather than simply rehash what those two posts discussed.
It didn’t used to be this way. The Church as an institution used to have a broader vision that welcomed a wider range of views. Once upon a time you’d hear a joke now and then in priesthood meeting or Sunday School along the lines of “you’re a Democrat, what are you doing here?” and everyone chuckled a bit. No one was offended. Now you rarely hear that joking reference anymore. Because it’s not really a joke anymore. When a MAGA Mormon asks a left-leaning Mormon next to them in class, “what’s a far-left radical Democrat like you doing here?” it’s not a joke. They really mean it, in that stupidly nasty way that MAGA people and MAGA Mormons talk these days.
Clearly political partisanship has bled over into church. It’s what makes non-MAGA Mormons feel somewhat marginalized and even unwelcome in many LDS congregations. [I’m sure it’s even more disconcerting outside the United States.] It certainly makes persisting even more trying. Senior leadership is largely asleep at the wheel regarding this degradation of LDS church life at the congregational level. Yes, they talk about civil discourse now and then, but the primary thrust of their appeal is for everyone outside the Church to talk nicer about Mormons. They don’t really care if mainstream Mormons judge non-MAGA Mormons. So persisters get good at just ignoring the flak thrown their way.
It’s not just partisanship and rhetoric, of course. As with the Republican Party, which moved so far right in recent years that it bears little resemblance to its former self (like only a dozen years ago), the LDS Church has moved to the right as well. Which wasn’t easy since it was pretty far right to begin with. If you can’t move any farther right, you can still increase your overall “rightness” by pushing out those who bring down the rightness curve by being too liberal or too tolerant. The Church has unwittingly done this over the last decade or two. This, too, alienates persisters, many of whom were in the middle of the LDS spectrum a generation ago but now find themselves on the left fringe of those who remain.
Persisters can be fully active in the sense of attending and holding down a calling or two. Or less active in the sense they attend a time or two each month. Or even fully less active (what was once called “inactive”) yet still engaged at some level. This is what makes persisters more or less invisible at church. They’re not happy about the politicized MAGA Church, they’re not happy about some of the silly doctrine (some now disfavored but still circulated in class, some still mainstream) they have to endure, but they soldier on.
Persisters don’t get much respect. To mainstreamers who at some point figure out a persister isn’t “one of them,” a persister looks like someone who is insufficiently zealous (the nicest response) or simply a heretic or apostate, some sort of wolf in sheep’s clothing (a nastier response). To those who have made a clean break and are fully out, whether formally or informally, persisters are something of a puzzle. “Hey, you figured it out, what are you still doing there?” is likely what they think of us persisters.
What helps persisters stick around? Blogs play a role, depending on your generation. For older ones, maybe Sunstone and Dialogue fill that discussion role, that reassurance that you are not the only reflective persister in your city or state. For younger ones, social media and podcasts probably fill that role. A lot depends on your geographical location (Mormonism varies somewhat by region) and your particular ward and bishop.
Maybe it’s just stubbornness or human nature. You probably have subscriptions you are paying ten or fifty bucks a month for and just haven’t got around to cancelling. Your car might have passed its sell by date but you just can’t bring yourself to go through the painful buying process just yet. Or maybe you are just comfortable with that older car despite its troubles. Maybe you are old enough that at this point you only have two friends left and they both attend your local congregation. I’ll bet a lot of persisters cannot even explain why they persist. I’m sure many say to themselves from time to time, “God knows I’d be happier without the Church,” but they still hang on. Like the movie said, “It’s one of life’s mysteries.”
Let’s ponderize the mystery of persisting.
- If you are a mainstream Mormon who wonders what all the fuss is about (and you are certainly welcome here at W&T, would that there were more like you), what do you think of all this?
- If you are a persister, why do you keep persisting? Have you been at it for months, years, or decades?
- Or maybe you are a persister because you just keep missing your exits (see post image up top).
- If you are just done with it all, were you previously a persister and how long did you persist? What broke your shelf or pushed you out?
- Here’s a big think question: Can the Church recover from this? Or is it on a membership death spiral, continually pushing out the folks who don’t fit the increasingly radical White Mormon Nationalism paradigm that now defines the Church?
Wheat & Tares 
I am out
I persist with boundaries (no major callings, I currently assist my wife in music, no temple recommend, certainly no temple attendance, no attendance of tithing settlement, no blessing/passing the sacrament, no giving blessings or prayers at church). I’ve persisted for about 10 years. The main reason: my wife, her family, and my family. It is just easier to persist lightly than to make a clean break. I’ve never told my parents, although I figure that maybe they can kind of tell. They could never handle it. They don’t really want to know. My wife’s mom couldn’t really handle it either. My wife’s 95-year-old grandma would keel over and die. I figure I’m actually still religious in the way that many Catholics claim to be religious. I attend church once a week, interact with the community, and say prayers with wife (although I don’t believe in any power of prayer, but believe in the power of meditation and positive thinking). I don’t need to be fully religious in the ways that the Mormon church thinks are acceptable. What are they going to do? Kick me out?
I have two sons. One is going to turn 11 at the end of this year and the other will turn 8 in June 2026. I will not ordain my son to the priesthood or baptize my younger son. I’m having my wife handle this since she is insistent on raising them in the church. If anyone asks (which they probably won’t) why I’m not ordaining or baptizing, I’ll say that I prefer the clergy to do it or the grandparents to do it, and keep it at that.
Also one major caveat. My wife and I attend a Spanish ward in Utah and have for almost a decade. Two reasons. Our first son is adopted and his birth parents are Guatemalan. We prefer he grows up around a Latino community to feel normal. He attends a dual immersion elementary with lots of Latino parents and kids and goes to a Latino ward. The second reason is that my wife went through infertility and felt horribly judged by the white Utah Mormon community that we were a part of at the time. A couple people just said hurtful things towards us. We both want nothing to do with the Utah white wards. We know there’s good folks in those wards. But each ward has a few racist, ethnocentric MAGA types who repeatedly say boneheaded offensive things and then mock you for getting offended when you get offended at offensive things they say. The Spanish ward is a whole different vibe. Things are just more laid back. Politics is not on display. In fact, many folks aren’t fully aware of the political tensions playing out in the US. The bishop runs a side project of trying to get basic needs to newly arrived migrants, undocumented migrants. I could only ever persist in the Spanish ward.
I stay because of my spouse. I would likely not attend otherwise. The focus on talks and lessons from conference talks has just about killed the meetings for me, much more than the political right which is pervasive, but usually not overtly pushed. I am usually pretty quiet in lessons as much of what is taught is not what I believe or feel strongly about. I try to avoid stake meetings and usually do not watch much of general conference. I lean heavily on the political left spectrum and have a hard time understanding how members of the church can be so comfortable with the Trump era. I suspect much of it relates to abortion, but I believe Trump is ruining our democracy. I have a hard time with the church focus on religious freedom as I believe the religious right is strangling our freedoms and the church is not open to much discussion about religion that is beyond the pablum that is usually fed to us.
I am out for all the reasons mentioned, and many more. I endured for several years but the church becoming more and more conservative has been a huge trial. After reading “the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy” and other books & essays, I was done. Easier for me as all our children were out a long time ago & my parents are deceased. My husband attends part time- he has friends in the ward & I don’t.
I just listened to another well known female lds therapist and podcaster, who has been grossly misunderstood. She & her husband are resigning membership right before they are about to be burned-at-the-stake, so to speak.
Tragic imo!
Also to answer the last question. The church leaders know that a big part of the church’s future lies in the Spanish-speaking communities. Leaders know that the racist types exist in the English wards but tries to gently resist them from taking control. I will say that the church has been much more successful at this than many Evangelical churches. In some pockets there has been a veritable resurgence of the KKK. The preachers are about as opposite as Jesus as one could be when it comes to immigrants from poor non-white countries.
Dave B.
I think assigning political labels and identities to the LDS church in the current time is complicated and for this simple reason: In the past 30 years, there has been a wild shift and realignment of political values in the USA. In the 1990s, Bill Clinton – a Democrat – supported cuts in government spending and reducing access to welfare benefits and he and the Democratic party supported the Defense of Marriage Act that empowered states to block same sex marriage. Donald Trump is not as “conservative” as was Bill Clinton!
That the LDS church cannot keep up with political trends ought not to surprise or disappoint. I don’t think a church could stay current with political trends and retain credibility. What is “in” and what is “out” change so quickly now that trend followers are being bent sideways.
A recent podcast by Ezra Klein has gained attention and he followed it up with an op-ed that was published today in the NY Times, titled “Democrats Need to Face Why Trump Won”. These type of essays draw a crazy range of responses and why? Because each and everyone of us has an opinion on why things are not the way we want them to be. But the essay presents uncomfortable truths for Democrats. The main one is that young people, especially young men, are turning “conservative” and so are immigrants. Klein is referencing the polling data from David Shor.
I trust church leadership is aware of these polls. I trust church leadership wants to make the church culturally mainstream, sufficiently so at least, in order for it to be attractive to a wide swath of the population. Given this polling data, what do you think the church leadership should do?
My observation is the high church leadership is desperately trying to be apolitical. I hear the high leadership teaching that it does not want political disagreement / partisanship to be cause for people to leave the church. At the same time, the lay church leadership and lay members, are going to represent the biases of their respective communities. I live in a liberal area and trust me, the opinions popular in my ward and stake and expressed by my local leadership tilt to the progressive viewpoint. Alas, the church is shrinking in my area. The church is shrinking in a lot of areas. But there are areas where the church is stronger. I think the church leadership is perceptive of the factors that contribute to church growth and this helps explain their tolerance of political diversity. For example, if people are moving to Florida and the church is growing in Florida then the leadership is not going to be critical of Florida politics!
Borrowing a comment from BCC because I can’t think of a way to say it better:
“The Nelson era is going to be remembered as the time period during which the church lost more of its active, adult membership than ever before. And so much of it seems to have been caused by policy-related unforced errors.“
Dave B., thanks for this post. A lot of us who stay are most definitely stubborn, probably to a fault. Can the church recover? Sure, but not with the current leadership, and not without taking steps that would alienate most of the MAGA members.
A pigheaded persister here, and I know many local leaders and awesome members who are alarmed by the intensifying (and one-sided) partisanship which has permeated the Utah church. Y’all take care of yourselves out there, it is far likely to get worse before it ever gets better.
For the last twenty years the only time that I can think of politics being brought up in church was a reminder to get out and vote. If anyone is MAGA in any of the wards I’ve attended, they haven’t outed themselves. No one has ever said ill of Democrats. At least not anything that I’ve overheard.
I moved from the “active, progressive, frustrated Mormon” category to Persister six months ago. Hardly a day, let alone a week, goes by without me asking myself what I’m doing. Why am I still persisting? My optimism in future change is very low these days, so it’s not really hope in the future. Currently, my top reasons for persisting include:
1) Inertia. Mormonism is what I’ve done for so long, it is the default position. I go to church on Sunday. I sing in the choir. I wear a white shirt and tie. There are cracks developing here. I don’t find any value in fasting, so I have stopped doing that monthly. I might watch a bit of General Conference on Sunday, but not on Saturday. I still have a temple recommend, but would not renew it today if it expired. It is unclear to me whether this inertia component is grinding to a complete stop or is just finding a new stead-state level of involvement.
2) Family. My wife enjoys the community and enjoys the ritual worship of attending church. I find church more boring than anything else. If I weren’t in primary I don’t know if I could stay quiet through ridiculous lessons anymore. I have two teens, one is still happily involved in church while the other is not interested in ever attending church, so I’m trying to be supportive to both of them.
3) Caution. I sense that stepping away more completely from church would be a hard decision to walk back from (my own stubbornness being a big factor here).
I was active until about 50. I persisted until about 65 and I’ve been out since then, the last five years. I was a teacher/educator for 43 years. I started as a Republican but eventually changed to an independent and ran for office as a democrat because I could while being an independent. I may have registered as a democrat for a few years but eventually registered as a republican so I could vote in primary elections. At church though I was always the one everyone said was the token democrat in the ward and would be greeted that way when I came to church. At 65 my wife and I left while her son was on his mission. He was my step son but was her son and it seemed that the bishop and stake president would only talk to me about him even though I asked them to talk to her. They never did respect that and my wife left almost as soon as her son went on his mission because they would never talk to her and I left a year or so later because I was tired of being in the middle. Since we left the bishop or stake president or even the home teachers (ministers) have not reached out or come to our home. Sometimes at a school activity, my wife is still a teacher, someone will ask why we don’t come anymore and I’ll say something like it’s hard when your daughter is gay, has a family, and I constantly have to defend why I still love her. This is true but it’s not the whole story but they don’t really want to hear that.
It’s hard to persist or to be a PIMO, physically in mentally out. Jader3rd, it must be nice to live in a ward where politics/MAGA stuff isn’t a part of your church experience but it does in most wards and really lives in my ward. After years of having to defend why I’m in a union, or teach, have a gay daughter, or vote for Obama, Biden, or Harris or even like Clinton, it just got to be too much. Sundays are much better now with CBS Sunday Morning News, a good breakfast, and shopping at Costco with all the inactive Utahns or with the far more Latinos that only have Sunday to shop.
Prop 8. Racism against Obama. Elder Haight asking why God would make someone gay and the church editing him in print form. Elder Holland lying to the BBC. Unable to listen to any talk by Elder Oaks in order to preserve mental well-being. The November 2015 policy. Mormon being cancelled. Ensign Peak whistleblower. Seeing my kids treated like second class citizens at church and realizing that I had suppressed seeing myself treating like a second class citizen at church. Musket fire. Women denied church rites and services during the pandemic. SEC fine and the Church’s response. Prophets seers and revelators calling post-Mormons names and telling members not to believe their experiences.
It started in 2006 and yet I persisted until 2023 when I finally woke up one day and had to face the facts that my value system was simply incompatible with the church and it simply made no sense to attend anymore for my sake and my community’s sake. My youngest kids were just wrapping up the primary program so we hung in for a few more weeks until it was over and have not attended since.
I believe both the choice to stay or leave an unhealthy structure takes courage.
I never really persisted. I was done more than 30 years ago after performing the endowment ceremony and going on a mission. The church was too confining. It was too cult-y. It didn’t make sense that the way God had crafted to return to him only embraced a miniscule slice of humanity. Even back then, it didn’t really constitute a big tent philosophy, so now it looks to me like a two-man backpacking tent. And this was all before the modern problems that clearly indicate a lack of moral leadership or concern for anything outside of who is paying how much and what kind of interest can we make on that.
Can it recover to be what it was? No, I don’t think so, especially since leaders don’t seem to hold that as an objective. They could try, but in today’s political climate they would just lure some back and perhaps push an equivalent number or more away. They’ll have to settle for being a small, largely uninfluential regional sect with A LOT of money.
What ultimately pushed me away was that I did not want to embrace the life Mormonism offered. I take responsibility for that. I didn’t believe it because I did not want to. I know mainstream Mormons would criticize that choice as not being open to promptings of the spirit, blah blah blah, but I simply don’t believe they’ve done anything different. To my mind, they just made choices that aligned with their own personal value system, priorities, and comfort level. To each their own.
At some point it seemed silly to be looking to the church to be an authority in just about anything when its ideas are worse than my own and a laundry list of better thinkers who are readily available. After years of ignoring the content, reading far better materials on my phone, and making comments that were both lauded and occasionally tattled on, it just felt beyond pointless. And yet, you can persist if you just ignore that and focus on the community. It becomes untenable when the community (as has been pointed out here) are slavering over the morsels of “wisdom” being passed off as theology like anti-trans digs, sexist jokes, authoritarian masquerading as religious freedom, etc. The church isn’t a pleasant place anymore.
I think that a lot of what people are complaining about might be local to Utah. Where I live the ward is not infected with MAGA, Trumpsim, or anything similar. I can’t tell when politics was raised. Many members, including some in leadership positions, probably lean well left in their politics.
The original post mentioned those who persist while “*not* believing much of what is taught” and those who do not attend, contrasting them to mainstreamers “who dutifully march off to church every week, believing most of what they are taught while silently giving a prayer of thanks to God that it’s only two hours long now instead of three.” This might paint with a wide brush. I would probably be considered a mainstreamer, but I do believe in the atonement and in the restoration and I attend regularly. I am not a Trumpist or a MAGAist, but then I don’t live in the shadow of the Rocky Mountains, either. I think that there are people like me who believe ardently, but who also understand the parable at D&C 88:51-61 (q.v.). Joseph Smith was the prophet of this restoration. When asked if he was a prophet, didn’t Gordon Hinckley once respond that the people sustain him as such? I think that there is a category of very faithful people who believe, but who also acknowledge that the president of the church is a mortal and can err, and in fact does err. The owner of the field called a servant and spent some time with him, and then left him alone to tend to other parts of his field. Perhaps that is where we are now. The master visited this part of the field and spent time with Joseph Smith, and then left him to go elsewhere. He and those who followed him are trying their best to keep the field fruitful. The master will come back to this part of the field at some point, but that hasn’t happened yet. People who think this way think very long term, knowing (or believing) that the master will return to give direction to his servant. In the meantime, leaders do the best they can. Here’s the point: the church is not God’s kingdom on earth where God rules and reigns. The church is given to men, and men do what they can. People who accept this don’t get wrapped in the personality cult of our leaders, and they don’t lose faith at every misstep of a general or local leader. They acknowledge that leaders can err, and that is a great pressure relief valve: it relieves a lot of pressure that otherwise might lead to an explosion.
Maybe it is an inter-mountain west, or “Mormon corridor” thing… but I really don’t see the MAGA dynamics in my suburban Chicago ward. Are there any other Midwesterners here, and are you seeing this dynamic in your ward? I am genuinely curious?
I think most people here would consider me to be a mainstream, TBM-type. I don’t especially like labels, but it is good enough for now. That said, I really appreciate the insights I get from being here at W&Ts and enjoy learning from all of you. We should all show a little more compassion, flexibility, and grace. Nobody is perfect, and nobody has it all figured out. I really dislike the infusion of politics in virtually every area of life, and in every relationship. I am working to fight against that in the important areas of my life. And posts like this truly help. So, thank you. You are welcome in my ward any time.
I believe and sympathize with those who have expressed disgust at right-wing politics being openly taught/discussed in their local congregations. It sounds like I’m lucky since this very rarely happens in my local congregation, which is in a very conservative part of the Mormon Corridor. I know a lot of my ward members sympathize with MAGA, and a few are fanatics, but it would be hard for me to tell that just by attending Church meetings (I know about some of the MAGA fanatics in my ward from social media, and I know there are many more MAGA sympathizers based on the voting results). I would find it hard to be confronted with this in a Church setting on a frequent basis, so it sounds like I’m lucky. Every once in a while a political view is stated in Church that shouldn’t have been said, but it is honestly quite rare. I do think that the periodic statements from the Q15 on political neutrality in the Church help keep people from talking politics at Church. It sounds like it doesn’t work in every ward, though.
Personally, my biggest beef is the right-wing political views expressed by the Q15 and other general leaders. I honestly think that the Q15 believes it is being politically neutral when speaking on “moral issues”. However, history has shown that when Church leaders speak about moral issues (today that would include, women, racism, LGBTQ, etc.) that they are simply speaking in favor of the right-wing political views that they have marinated in for the last 90 years. I think they honestly believe that they are speaking for God when they cherry-pick scriptures and quote their predecessors while using religious language, rather than political language, to express their views on these issues, but again, history has shown that they (at least, usually) are not speaking for God.
The Q15 needs to acknowledge their terrible past track record. In the past, their default positions have always been to stick with the right-wing, restrictive answer. Is birth control OK? Initially, it was no. Can women have careers? Initially, it was no. Can we contradict past prophets and allow blacks to hold the priesthood? The answer was no until the pressure became too great.
Instead of defaulting to the right-wing, restrictive position on every moral issue, the Q15 should instead adopt a “big tent” policy by default when these issues come along. I mean, if God ever really intervenes by actually giving them undeniable direction on what to do, then of course they should share this with Church members. However, the Q15’s track record over the last century is simply abysmal. They obviously are not usually able to discern God’s will any better than individual members can. I think the Church would have developed into a much, much better thing if, when faced will “moral issues” over the years that the Q15 had simply said, “We don’t know God’s will on this topic. Read the Book of Mark, say your prayers, and go ahead and do what your heart tells you to do. We trust you. God trusts you.”
Like Brad. D., I’m a persister with boundaries (no major callings, no temple recommend, certainly no temple attendance, no attendance of tithing settlement, etc…). I do teach Elders Quorum regularly as a volunteer, but not as a calling. I’m openly a persister, but I’m outgoing and friendly (and a white heterosexual male), so people give me a pass. I persist because I’m still a spiritual person and I value my relationship with God. I mostly connect with God in nature, but Mormonism is still my home. I don’t feel like I have to stay, but it has served me well for a long time, and I also haven’t felt like I have to leave.
My wife is a persister, mostly out of inertia I think. But she doesn’t enjoy the community and basically doesn’t participate in any of the community aspects of church. She also has her own beliefs, but finds value in taking the sacrament.
My kids like church and church activities. We are having Young Women’s Camp and Young Men’s Camp next week and my kids are excited to participate. We are Americans living in a foreign country, so I think my kids like the familiarity of church, plus the opportunity to hang out with friends.
Once our kids are grown and out of the house, I expect my wife to leave the church. I guess I’ll see what I do at that point.
I think the church can have a big recovery if/when Uchdorf becomes the President of the church, but I’m fearful that any progress he makes will quickly be undone by Bednar.
I already commented to this extent on Andrew’s related post, so forgive some repetition.
I persisted because there was a community need being met, to maybe hear something sometimes to help me be a better person, for family tradition, for a believing spouse. For sunk costs, because it was a huge part of my identity and history. Because I was still super interested in theology and spirituality even if I broadened way outside of Mormonism.
I have now almost entirely opted out because the community need is really *not* being met (Sunday relationships have not translated into anything not based on shared Church membership which is not actually community), I rarely do hear anything useful (I am living in a completely different reality than what is being said at Church), my kids don’t like church & my entire immediate family (siblings & parents) left, my believing spouse has gotten less bothered about my non-participation. I’m getting over the sunk costs and personal history piece (I still have, hopefully, half my life ahead of me). I find reading history and exploring the world loads more interesting than engaging with theological content anymore.
But in sum: a need was being met. It is no longer being met. The level of participation is proportionate to the need being met. My needs are now better met skiing, hiking, reading, and resting on Sundays than going to church. Call me selfish and hedonistic but I would contend that even people sacrificing for Church are doing so to meet their own needs–and that’s OK.
Oh! One more very important point.
I persisted when I thought that, while not “True,” the Church was still good.
I no longer believe it is good.
The hoarding of wealth, the lying, the securities fraud, the response to sex abuse, the treatment of LGBTQ folks, and (mostly) the patriarchy.
It is so misaligned with my own values that I would NEVER opt to participate in that kind of organization if I hadn’t been born into it. So there’s not much reason to do so now that I decided I can actually make my own choices.
I have absolutely zero patience in my life for patriarchy. I can’t opt out of a lot of patriarchy, but if I can, I will.
For those saying they don’t have a lot of vocal MAGA people in their wards, I don’t think it’s just an inter-mountain West phenomenon, at least not from what I can see. I’ve muted and or unfriended so many far-right nutjobs from my wards (as well as family members) across the country that I can’t believe it’s just the west. But here’s what I will also observe: 1) local leadership absolutely matters as to what the tone of meetings is–the bigger their blind spots and the more biased they are, the more they tolerate and/or ignore political speech, 2) each of us is attuned to these things to varying levels. A gay person is going to pick up on anti-LGBTQ biased messages more than a straight person. A woman is going to pick up on sexism more than a man. A trans person is going to pick up on trans-phobic dog whistles (and many of the things people say ARE coded talking points from their political parties). A person of color is going to pick up on racism faster.
Also, we are using terminology that sounds good on the surface, but is objectionable to some. It’s like the old adage of respect. Some people won’t respect another person who doesn’t first respect them. Sounds fine, but what if what they really mean is who doesn’t respect their authority or privilege, and they won’t respect the dignity and rights of the other person until they are acknowledged to be in a position of power. Honestly, the feedback the Hamakers talked about getting from their local leaders was a perfect spot-on example of this. They were told they weren’t being “humble” enough after they literally bent over backwards for years to show these people undue respect (my opinion–they were FAR more generous than I am willing to be). Unless the Hamakers are willing to completely agree with them, they are “disrespecting” them. Nice gig if you can get it.
Or “religious freedom,” a value that is in the constitution, that we all agree is a good thing. Well, it is a good thing when it means we live in a pluralistic society where everyone is entitled to hold whatever religious beliefs they choose (or no belief). It’s NOT a good thing when it’s either being given undue power in society to impose a culturally normative religion or its values on people who don’t hold those same values or beliefs, and that’s what’s going on and been going on for a decade. Yet I know plenty of Mormons who think “religious freedom” is under attack and is so important they are going to rallies about it. What’s actually under attack is pluralism.
Dave B,
Is the church in Wyoming really that bad? I’m in Utah County, arguably the reddest county in the nation most election years. I’ve never seen anything that you’ve described since you first started ascribing this MAGA stuff to most active members around 2016, even actively looking for it. I’m sure it happens places. I haven’t seen it yet, or in any other Utah ward I’ve attended for that matter. In fact, since living here since 2010, I have watched the majority of active member neighbors and coworkers I’ve known over the years stay absolutely the same politicially (generally conservative). It was actually less active and non member coworkers who started moving slowly to the right under Obama, still to the right under Trump, and accelerating to the right under Biden. If I’m completely honest, the MAGA rhetoric you’ve associated with the Church has felt like borderline gaslighting in recent years. I’d be naive if I said the Church hasn’t changed somewhat one way or the other, but I feel like perceived moves to the right are mostly just that. For what it’s worth, I’ve only met two Trump supporters in the last ten years who didn’t have anything bad to say about Trump.
I’m a mainstreamer. I’m probably as believing now as ever. I have tried to grow more aware of the persister or those who have left in the past few years, thanks in small part to blogs like this one. I’ll admit my efforts have had mixed results. As far as understanding goes, it seems for every two blog posts I read that make me feel I’ve been wrong about persisters or those who have left, there’s at least one that all but confirms so many of the pre-conceived stereotypes I’ve tried to discard over the years. I don’t come here as often as I used to for a variety of reasons, but trying to keep my head stereotype-free is one reason I “persist” at this blog.
I am not unaware of all the criticisms leveled against the Church here and elsewhere. I’ve experienced way too much to say God is not involved in it. I did appreciate the point from Georgis.
Actually, though it may be worth exploring in another blog post, I really do think there’s somewhat of a chicken-egg scenario when it comes to the bloggernacle and church meetings. I was a tween when the internet started to come into homes, and by the time I went on my mission nearly everyone had an email address. I started becoming aware of the bloggernacle a couple of years after I got home. I’m not entirely convinced that the bloggernacle is the only place for these conversations. I can recall some very interesting conversations in Church and ward parties growing up. My dad would come home as EQP with some very, very interesting stories. Did the Church really discourage this kind of talk, or did the bloggernacle just give an outlet for people to freely get it out of their system so that they had no desire to save it for a Church meeting (if show up at all at that point), thus letting it go “unchecked” or “unchallenged” by an actual class discussion with mainstreamers, as well as giving mainstreamers something extra to think about in the first place? I honestly think it’s both. I concede the Church has gotten more guarded in recent years, maybe precisely because it fears some of that “unchecked” energy might make its way back more forcefully, but admit it’d be nice to see the Church make somewhat of a compromise by bringing these subjects up in classroom setting, even if they do need to throw in some guardrails here and there. From what I’ve heard, a lot of these conversations still persist in wards outside the U.S.
To be honest, Dave, a lot of the grievances you mention here seem more personal complaints about your ward than complaints about the institutional church. I would be wary of the fallacy of composition.
Thanks for the comments, everyone.
Eli and Innocent Bystander, I’m not saying every ward is a “MAGA ward” or that my own ward is such. I said, “… in many LDS congregations,” not in all of them. I said, “A lot depends on your geographical location (Mormonism varies somewhat by region) and your particular ward and bishop.” I’ve actually had a pretty good experience most of the time in my units.
The problem is that the LDS voting pattern writ large has been solid support for Trump all three elections, second only to Evangelicals, I think. It’s this sense that drives my concern over the MAGA Church (well, there are other factors as well, but not the focus of this post). That fully manifests only in some wards and stakes. That’s evident in the above comments, as well.
(This is my first post here, but I’ve been lurking here for nearly 3 years now)
I don’t know that I would call myself a “persister” or a “TBM”. I’m kind of somewhere in between, maybe? I’m definitely what you would call a “ProgMo” or nuanced – I’m that kind of “middle way Mormon” that was talked about in another post. I’m in, and I intend to stay in (I actually chose to come back), but I’m untraditional in some ways and my beliefs are certainly atypical.
I was raised in the church in Utah and was a very all-in member through middle school. Then I had a faith crisis at 14. Yes, 14. By the time I was a high school senior, I had come out as queer, and I was done with church. I sometimes would play the organ for sacrament meeting (which was a blast for me), but that was about it. Suffice it to say a mission was out of the question at that point.
But when I graduated, I felt like I should go back to church and get a temple recommend. I felt like it would be good for me. So I did. Fast forward a few months, and I had started college, was in institute, and had a calling, and was ordained an elder (priesthood, not mission – that’s still not happening). And it was great for me at that time. That was about a year ago.
For me, I participate as the annoyed/rebellious progressive believer because it feels right for me right now. If it doesn’t feel right eventually, then I will adjust. But, for right now, I feel good about being the non-mission-serving, Democrat-voting, queer, chronically doubting member that I am.
Like others, I persist simply because of my wife. Our kids are grown and out of the house. Served missions, married in the temple, and are basically through with the nonsense of the last 10 years or so. We raised them to be kind, understanding, accepting, and loving to ALL. Funny, but that is what did them in when it comes to remaining active. They saw it all: POX, SEC scandal, Lying from the Q15 about it, more declarations that Prophets and the Brethren always get it right – when clearly, they have not. My Kids values simply did not match what they saw in church, and they chose their values. I served as a Bishop and our current leadership struggles knowing what to say/think about how they view me. Like my kids, my values do not align with what I hear in General Conference. Most local voices are focused on the Savior, but once past our local boundaries it simply gets too predictably un-christlike. I am now too old to do anything other than focus on the Savior and what He wants me to do. I do not feel the tug (or the push) to vouch for things that are not of God. I realize that sounds pretty arrogant, and I do not mean it to be. God gives us His spirit so that He can help us best follow Him. I am trying to do that.
Building on Hawkgrrrl’s last comment, I think one of the reasons members of my northern Utah ward don’t think many people bring up politics at church is because they think their political beliefs are church doctrine. So they say things I think are political, but they think are simply stating doctrine. Bringing politics to church is not simply a matter of supporting your preferred political party at church. It also involves statements of belief when that belief is informed as much by politics as by the gospel. For example, any time a Sunday lesson includes talking about the last days before Jesus’ return, a good share of the discussion will reflect right wing political beliefs. But most of the participants genuinely won’t think the discussion is political. (Just one aspect: the belief that the world is getting more wicked generally follows adherence to conservative beliefs.)
@PWS, that is a very good point. It also relates to my previous comment about how the Q15 likely doesn’t think they are being political in their messaging/teachings, yet much of their messaging/teachings are simply them converting their right-wing political views into “non-political” Mormon terminology. They “feel good” about their views, so it must be the Spirit confirming to them that their teachings are “true”. I guess I may be giving my local ward members a pass if they are simply repeating the exact same views expressed by the Q15, especially when they seem to understand what the especially sensitive topics are (for example, the Family Proclamation) and normally go out of their way to avoid them at Church. Honestly, they probably largely deserve to be given a break when they are simply parroting messages from the Q15. It doesn’t make it any more comfortable for ward members with more liberal leanings, though. I’m going to test this theory out in the coming weeks to see how much I feel is said at Church each week that is really right-wing political views couched in Mormon terminology. Well, I’ll test it out to the extent that I can pull myself away from the books I read in Church on my phone instead of listening to most of the talks and lessons since I’ve found that I can derive a lot more value from just reading stuff of my own choosing.
Your example of the earth getting increasingly wicked is an interesting one. Should this be viewed as originating from Mormonism’s embrace of conservative politics? Conservative politics does paint a pessimistic view of the state of mankind, so Mormons are definitely influenced by this. On the other hand, the idea of an increasingly wicked world was taught over and over again by Joseph Smith, who wasn’t generally very conservative in his politics. In addition, the scriptures are full of support for an increasingly wicked world in “the last days”. Joseph taught that we were in the last days and sent missionaries out to gather “the elect” to Zion so that they would be safe from the imminent doom and destruction. In other words, the wicked earth idea was baked into Mormonism (and many conservative Christian sects) long before Mormonism embraced conservative politics.
Our MAGA commenter moved so priesthood has gotten better. But I find it easier to socialize in the hall and read a good book like Blood of the Prophets or Pioneer Prophet, plus attending a Fundy ward, or Bickertonites service when they are in town. I’ve been known to do interviews on Sunday afternoon too. That helps with persisting.
Personal study is soooo much better than group study. I will say the Centennial Park service in Arizona was one of my favorites. Bickertonites music is the bomb. (Still waiting for speaking in tongues to happen. I’m 0-4.) Someone sent me a video where speaking in tongues happened but I’ve not witnessed it personally yet.
Hoping to visit Strangites service this summer, along with Bickertonites and CoC general conferences. Looking forward to new prophet vote/ordination with Stassi Cramm.
MHA, Sunstone, and JWHA are the things I really look forward to.
My wife’s sister is lesbian and is the most amazing human and aunt ever. I realized that raising my son in the church would mean exposing him to a calvacade of sincere, devout people throughout his entire formative years basically telling him that the aunt and extended family member he is closest to (and who never forgets a birthday and showers him with funny jokes, cards, and thoughtful gifts) was sinful, misguided, wicked, or betraying prophetic revelation contained in the Family Proclamation.
I didn’t feel like I could counter-program an entire ward ecosystem of primary leaders, ward members, youth leaders, etc. It dawned on me that there would be many casual, informal conversations where he would absorb a flood of messages on topics which we just flatly disagree with church doctrine on (purity culture, gender roles, patriarchy).
For a while I thought that maybe we could persist and be a quiet voice of change from within. But I think what really burst my bubble was a talk given by Ahmad Corbitt that basically came out strongly against would-be faithful reformers. We realized we had no place, no voice, and no future in the organization.
In the end, I came to believe that my son would be a worse person by growing up in the church culture than by opting out of it, especially during the intense purity culture years (12-18). So even though I felt like I personally could persist and be a cafeteria-Mormon, I felt like my son didn’t have the intellectual maturity to pick and choose which things to keep and which to discard. I toyed with the idea of trying to set hard limits with primary presidency and youth leaders and gatekeep what topics were discussed. But that approach just seemed to generate friction and mistrust of us as someone who might harm the testimonies of other ward members.
I am a BYU grad and a returned missionary. What I see Clark Gilbert doing at BYU is deeply haunting and bodes poorly for the future of the church. My experience is somewhat like BradD’s. We attended a Spanish ward for a year. My son is also in a dual immersion program at school. The Spanish ward we attended is so much healthier!
I think for us to return to participation I would almost need to be able to select the type of congregation we would attend. I really have no desire to sit in the pews with anyone who voted for Trump. Furthermore, I would need to be absolutely sure that my son was never taught a lesson on the law of chastity, masturbation, pornography, anti-LGBTQ teachings, sat through a worthiness interview where he was asked sexual questions with an adult, or is pressured to serve a mission.
I agree with those who are suggesting that anyone who sees no politics at church is simply soused to it that they honestly don’t see it. My dear husband is the example I will use, rather than pick on anyone above because I know what his ward is like. It is a pretty typical Utah ward. When I have gone with him (very rare) I hear political stuff. He claims that nothing political ever gets said. When we visit our son’s ward in northern Utah, it is the same thing. I cringe at the right wing stuff and he just thinks it is all part of church and doesn’t even recognize it as political. Some of it is so baked in that unless one is sensitive to it, it is all just part of the air we breath.
I am probably more sensitive because I was raised by Democrats living in Provo Ut who were really bothered that John Birchers could preach in church, but if you belonged to the labor union you went hungry during the strike. My husband grew up Republican was active military for 20 years and always voted Republican until Trump. I hear the political bias at church and to him it is just normal. He sees it as part of the gospel and I see it as political.
It also changes with the times, which proves it is political. In the 60 it was anti civil rights, anti welfare, anti union. In the 70 it was anti ERA. After that it was anti LGBT. The church has leaned right as long as I can remember. What is different now is the fact that being Democrat is seen as outright evil, where before it was tolerated and as mentioned in the OP, a joke.
The current MAGA party is very tied into fundamental religion with the Christian Nationalists and Manifest Destiny (MAGA is not calling it that, but it is basically America is God’s beloved country, that America was meant to be a Christian country or America first.) Mormonism is very fundamental with taking the Bible literally, so a lot of beliefs run in both MAGA and Mormonism. Racism and Christian Nationalism and Manifest Destiny is right there in the BoM. So, MAGA fits Mormonism well.
So, is it that we are hearing politics at church or that the church has doctrine and scriptures that fit perfectly into MAGA?
On folks not seeing politics at church. I agree with Anna. I have not attended an English-speaking ward in years. But I’ll bring up how I contacted my mom, who lives in Provo, after Trump won and told her that I don’t find the political talk that she and my dad casually engage in to be particularly productive, that I am happy to talk politics when it there is a sort of open forum where people are heard and there is no jab and retreat form of discourse, and in an environment where progressives and liberals are not attacked personally or made into a caricature/strawman, but where we instead correctly characterize the other sides’ positions and critique them from there. She was confused. She thought that she and my dad never brought up politics. But that is simply not true. They routinely take jabs at caricatures of liberals and echo Fox News talking points about migrants, inflation, foreign policy, etc. Then it occurred to me that they are so mired in a conservative environment that they simply think that everyone around them generally agrees with them. I brought up how she should imagine what it would be like to attend a dinner where everyone around the table was a progressive who routinely made caricatures of conservatives and passively hit conservatives with jab and retreat comments. She simply couldn’t even imagine being at such a dinner.
And such is church. If you’re conservative, conservative-leaning, or perhaps libertarian, you simply don’t notice the subtle politics routinely on display. You’re so used to people being in the general range of agreement with you that you don’t see offhanded unelaborated political comments as political. You don’t notice passive-aggressive eyerolls when someone is indirectly/allusively talking about liberals or some liberal policy or some catastrophe that happened that everyone, just everyone knows was caused by liberals such as inflation, COVID mandates, and California wildfires. I can tell you this. As a mainline progressive, I am ever so painfully aware of the regular conservative anti-liberal passive-aggression routinely on display at church. They are like microaggressions of a sort. To the conservative church-goer in Utah County, I’m being the stereotypical oversensitive liberal who complains about small trivial things. To that, again, I invite these conservatives to go hang around a liberal environment for a while. Go have a discussion with liberals who have the articulation and debate skills of Sam Seder, Mehdi Hasan, and Destiny, and we’ll see how long you last. Bear in mind, many of you are steeped in an environment that tells you to run from “bad influences.” My guess is that many conservatives in these environments would go apoplectic with insanity. The cognitive dissonance they would be subjected to would explode their brains. How do I know? Because I was once that conservative. I had many episodes of cognitive dissonance while in grad school among liberals and progressives. Eventually, however, I came to reject conservatism and embrace liberalism.
Brad D is 100% on the money.
“Politics” is how people identify and act on their individual priorities in a group setting. So I think that “politics” and “church culture [and teachings informed culture]” are closely intertwined BECAUSE a key objective of the church was/is “building Zion (the community)”. Even if the church organization no longer has the literal intent to “build the Zion community” in a physical location, “perfecting the Saints” in a same place winds up with the “build/perfect a community of Saints”.
I think that what has changed is that rule-breaking polarization that happened to the news happened at church (in some areas) and that people felt more entitled to make choices that they wouldn’t have made before.
I am curious as to whether the “live and let live” essence that is the basis of the 12 Article of Faith is being fed to the “covenant path” one-size-fits-all template in terms of church community culture.
I was persisting for years while still serving rather hefty church callings. I was in a stake presidency when Trump was elected the first time and started speaking out against his policies on my social media (never in an official capacity at church). Apparently I wasn’t the only leader to do this – we are on the east coast. The area authority for our area sent a letter requesting that if we were in a leadership position that we stop posting anti trump stuff, or other political topics on our social media. That was the beginning of the end of the end for me. Once covid lockdowns started I stopped attending church (of course) – and that break allowed me to make the final step away from the church that I needed.
As to those who claim that the church membership has not moved more rightward – maybe so, because the church has actually engaged in a tremendous amount of harmful behavior over the years. Banning people from full participation in the church because of their skin color. Opposing equal rights for women. Opposing gay rights in CA and lying about there involvement in it. And on and on. However, it seems clear to me based on my MAGA family members who live out west, that US church membership overall has fallen even further away from anything resembling true christianity. Basically they are evangelical-lite.
I’m with Cam. Our spiritual relationships are with God. Christ’s message is to individuals. The church is a multi-pronged tool whose only purpose is to help us – a Swiss army knife. We take from it what we need in our spiritual journey. And that may be little or nothing at times. The transition from the church being the center of our spiritual lives to ourselves being the center of our spiritual lives is a difficult and fraught journey for those of us raised Mormons. But it is a necessary journey.