Why are so many people leaving religion in the United States? Dr Ryan Cragun answers that in his new book, “Goodbye Religion.” Why do some people stay and some people leave? Rick and Ryan will discuss why one left and one stayed with religion, despite with both being highly knowledgeable about religion? Is there a correlation between religious knowledge at disaffection? What are the factors that lead some to leave? Check out our conversation…
Triggered vs Calm Ex-Mormons
Ryan introduces his new book, “Goodbye Religion,” co-authored with Jesse Smith, which focuses on why people leave religion. He explains the book’s purpose, which is to provide a theoretical framework and a comprehensive look at the causes and consequences of secularization in the US. Ryan highlights the book’s mixed methods approach, combining qualitative and quantitative research. They discuss the book’s focus on religion generally, though it includes significant representation from the LDS church.
Theories on Why People Leave Religion
Ryan and Rick discuss the various reasons people leave religion, including boredom, personal growth, and disillusionment with church practices. Ryan mentions a criticism of the book, which is that it focuses more on people who have a hard exit from religion rather than those who drift away. They explore the idea that most people who leave religion do so gradually and without a significant break from the church. Ryan emphasizes that the book aims to provide a balanced view of the reasons people leave religion, including both hard exits and gradual drifts.
Personal Experiences and Emotional Impact
Ryan shares his personal experience of leaving religion, describing it as a significant and emotional process. He discusses the sense of betrayal some people feel when they leave a religion that claims to have the truth. Ryan explains that this sense of betrayal can lead to anger and a desire to fight against the church. They discuss the importance of understanding the emotional impact of leaving religion and the different ways people cope with it.
Growing Up in a Devout Mormon Family
Rick and Ryan both shared their backgrounds of growing up in an orthodox Mormon home and the warnings about church history that could lead to losing one’s testimony. Rick recounts his reaction to learning about polygamy and racism in Mormon history, expressing his discomfort. He mentions an interview with Brant Gardner about “White and Delightsome” and the angry responses from ex-Mormons.
Ryan’s Personal Journey and Betrayal
Ryan shares his upbringing in a very devout Mormon family in Morgan, Utah, with a strong Pioneer heritage and no polygamy. Ryan describes his early devotion, including daily scripture reading and mandatory seminary, and his mission in Costa Rica from 1996 to 1998. He was a voracious reader during his mission, including the entire Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Bible. He explains how his curiosity led him to read uncorrelated materials and anti-Mormon books, which eventually led to his questioning of Mormonism.
Exploring Anti-Mormon Literature and Mission Office Role
Ryan recounts how he started reading anti-Mormon literature on his mission to help other missionaries answer questions from investigators. Ryan describes his role as the financial secretary in the mission office, where he wrote a 40-page report rebutting anti-Mormon arguments for the mission president. He shares his journal entries reflecting his internal struggle between believing Mormonism is the greatest thing or a huge lie. He used his mission office access to read books from the mission home library, which helped him decide to switch his major from medicine to psychology/sociology post-mission.
Transition to Academic Study and Realization of Mormonism’s Limitations
Ryan discusses how his academic studies in religious studies, anthropology, and sociology helped him understand Mormonism as a social construct. An influentical book was Thomas O’Dea’s “The Mormons” and other sociological works led him to realize Mormonism’s historical and doctrinal inaccuracies. Ryan describes the specific issues that pushed him to leave Mormonism, including the Book of Mormon’s anachronisms and historical inaccuracies. He reflects on the sense of betrayal he felt when he realized the church had known about these issues for a long time.
Navigating the Betrayal and Personal Growth
Ryan talks about the difficulty of reconciling his realization of Mormonism’s limitations with his upbringing and devotion. Ryan explains how he eventually came to terms with the fact that most people in his orbit were not aware of these issues and were not trying to betray him. He discusses the importance of understanding that most people do not question their religion and live their lives without reflecting on it. Ryan shares his personal journey of overcoming anger and finding peace with his decision to leave Mormonism.
Understanding Different Stages of Faith and Personal Beliefs
Rick and Ryan discuss the concept of Fowler stages of faith and how different people react to discovering issues in their religion. Ryan explains how some people transition from a devout stage to an anti-religious stage, while others remain in the middle. Rick shares his frustration with people who quickly label the church as racist and a cult without understanding that the term cult is a racist term. Ryan emphasizes the importance of nuanced beliefs and how some people can still be devout members while not accepting every aspect of their religion.
Role of Exclusive Religions and Personal Responsibility
Ryan discusses how exclusive religions like Mormonism set themselves up for disappointment by claiming to be the one true church. Ryan suggests that if the church were more open about its flaws, it might be more resilient to people leaving. Rick and Ryan talk about the importance of personal responsibility and how individuals should not be judged solely based on their religious beliefs. Ryan shares his experience of befriending religious individuals who are nuanced in their beliefs and do not judge others based on their faith.
Examples of Dramatic Breaks from Religion
Ryan shares stories from “Goodbye Religion” of people who had dramatic breaks from their religion, including a gay man disowned by his fundamentalist Christian father. Ryan describes how this man tried to reconcile with his father and eventually became a pastor in an LGBT-affirming church. Ryan explains how these stories highlight the complexity and emotional toll of leaving a devout religious background. Ryan emphasizes that these dramatic breaks are more interesting and challenging to understand than the more common drifts from religion.
Mega Churches and Religious Marketplace
Ryan discusses the concept of religion as a marketplace, where religions compete for adherents, using mega churches as an example. He describes a flyer from Fellowship Church, highlighting how it markets events like Easter egg hunts and family photos to attract people without religious references. Ryan explains how religions adapt to the marketplace by offering appealing events and services to attract and retain members.
Church Attendance and Service Length
Rick and Ryan discuss the LDS Church’s decision to reduce service length from three to two hours, attributing it to competition from other activities. Ryan mentions the LDS church’s potential future changes, such as offering contemporary services, to stay competitive. Rick shares an experience of attending a 30-minute church service at a nursing home. Ryan notes that shorter services could also lead to a loss of community and support.
S-Curve of Innovation and Loss of Religion
Rick asks Ryan to explain the S-curve concept, which Ryan uses to describe the adoption of new technologies and religious practices. Ryan uses the example of DVDs and iPhones to illustrate how early adopters try the newest innovations. After a time, the curve steepens as the general public adopts the innovations, like DVD’s and iPhones. Ryan projects that the non-religious population may follow a similar S-curve, with a rapid increase in adoption in the future. Ryan mentions a friend studying super-devout Catholics in the UK to understand why some people remain religious despite widespread secularization.
Push and Pull Factors in Religious Adoption
Ryan introduces the concept of push and pull factors in religious adoption, using the framework of immigration to explain it. Factors pushing people out of religion include hypocrisy, value misalignment, and better alternatives, while factors pulling people awy from church include the appeal of a life without religion. Ryan discusses how the LDS church can minimize push factors by addressing issues like hypocrisy and value misalignment. Ryan discusses the potential impact of introducing Protestant hymns into the LDS church’s new hymn book as a way to attract more members.
Community and Meaning After Leaving Religion
Rick shares a personal story about a friend who left the LDS church and missed the sense of purpose and community it provided. Ryan acknowledges that the LDS Church does well in building supportive communities but suggests that individuals can also build their own communities. Ryan emphasizes the importance of intentionality and effort in building interpersonal connections and community outside of religious institutions. Rick and Ryan discuss the role of social media and digital connections in contributing to feelings of loneliness, separate from the decline of religion.
Comparing Religious and Non-Religious Groups
Rick shares an experience with AI summarizing Ryan’s book, noting the AI’s conclusion that leaving religion is complicated. Ryan discusses the challenges Church leaders face when people leave religion and do not join specific groups like the NFL. Ryan explains that mega churches counter this by creating various interest groups within the church, such as hiking or board gaming groups, to maintain community. Such things could be useful for the LDS Church to implement. Rick reminisces about the changes in church activities over the years, including the reduction in church hours and the impact on community. Ryan agrees that the reduction in church hours has hurt community, attributing some of the changes to risk management and competition in the religious marketplace.
Impact of Risk Management on Church Activities
Ryan discusses how risk management has led to the elimination of activities like road shows and all-church basketball tournaments. Rick and Ryan talk about the historical context of these activities and their impact on community building. Ryan emphasizes that the church could offset the loss of community by introducing new activities that build community, such as potlucks or interest groups. Rick shares a personal anecdote about the historical all-day church activities and the impact of reducing them.
Health and Well-being of Religious and Non-Religious Individuals
Ryan explains that the book found no significant differences in health, happiness, or morality between religious and non-religious individuals. The book used robust data from multiple surveys to control for factors like age and gender, showing no major differences in health outcomes. Ryan mentions that the only significant difference found was in fertility rates, with religious individuals having slightly more children. Rick and Ryan discuss the implications of these findings for common concerns about the well-being of people who leave religion.
Cliff Diving Metaphor for Leaving Religion
Ryan introduces the cliff diving metaphor to explain the process of leaving religion, with different levels of cliffs representing different religious groups. The metaphor suggests that as more people leave religion, the water (secular life) becomes less scary and more people are willing to jump in. Ryan emphasizes that the metaphor is not meant to imply that secular life is utopian but rather that it is not as scary as it might seem. Rick and Ryan discuss the usefulness of the metaphor in helping people understand the process of leaving religion.
General Religious Knowledge and Book of Mormon Census
Rick brings up a question about general religious knowledge, noting that Mormons were third after atheists and Jews. Ryan explains that the data came from a Pew survey conducted around 2010-2014, which asked specific knowledge questions about religion. Rick and Ryan discuss the implications of these findings for understanding religious knowledge and the performance of different religious groups.
Have you read Ryan’s book? Are you surprised that more people leave the Church quietly than the angry ex-Mormon stereotype? Do you agree with Ryan that “not religious” will continue to grow and may overtake religious people in the United States? What do you have to add to the topic of faith crises?
Wheat & Tares 
Nice post 🌅🌅
This is a wonderful opinion piece that carefully balances important issues. It is very reminiscent of the views of Joseph Smith’s grandfather Asael.
Much like Dr. Cragun, Asael felt a sense of betrayal. He felt that the religious leaders of the day were placing themselves between God and the people in an artificial context. Asael felt that each person could have a direct spiritual relationship with God, without having to use another person as an intermediary.
In addition, Asael would likewise have been appalled at the risk managers destroying the activities that build a community of worshippers. He would join Cragun in being outraged that the risk of paying out a few dollars in medical bills has led to the elimination of the very activities that made Mormons a close-knit community.
I think a lot of the “angry” exmos might get upset at the “calm” exmos because the stereotypes of the calm ones get generalized to the entire crowd — but it makes sense if you consider in the context of the numbers. I have thought about this and probably written some comments to this effect — most people who leave the church probably do look like they left because they “wanted to sin” or whatever, because that’s what the “drifting away” population looks like from the insider perspective. (From the outside, the motivations and reasonings don’t really feel the same, but from the inside…it’s an easy explanation.)
So, when someone leaves with a big break because of something more “substantive” than drifting away, it can probably feel frustrating to be misunderstood in this way — in addition to not having adequate answers to one’s burning grievances, to add insult to injury, they are simply lumped in with the “drifters” as if their grievances aren’t actually real.
One of the sections I found enlightening was the discussion on the angry vs calm faith crisis. I think Dr. Cragun’s experience of being angry and then working through that to some realizations was really interesting to hear. And that now he’s just in a spot where it just doesn’t work for him, but he’s past the anger and betrayal. I also enjoyed Rick pointing out that he stays because it works for him.
I have the read the goodbye Religion book and found much in that book think about. I have seen family members who have exited the church both as hard exits as well as the soft drifting away and they have been able to live happy fulfilled lives outside of the church. but there are many who do find their fulfillment inside of religion so we should not be quick judge those who leave religion. I found out about the book via a Jana Reis column on the Religion News Service and am looking forward the book tha Jana and Gary Knoll are working on dealing specifically with mormons leaving choosing to leave the church.
I have historically enjoyed Ryan Cragun’s writing, but this book is unfortunately not available through my library yet. Very interesting ideas and what a great discussion, Rick!
I totally agree that many (most) who leave the church just do so quietly (the “quiet quitting” OP by Elisa is a great observation). Even if they may privately feel outraged at something, they don’t necessarily feel the need to fight or try to de-convert others. Sometimes people just want to get on with their lives, feeling like what Morgan Freeman says at the end of Shawshank Redemption, after being released from decades in prison: “Get busy living or get busy dying.” Life is too short to spend another minute on something you don’t value.
But, the discussion about community is also really valuable. I never considered before that risk management is related to the loss of programs like roadshows, etc. I just assumed leaders thought they would win friends and influence people by making fewer demands of their time, but that can’t be right since they still refuse to hire janitors. It still seems that they misunderstand how critical social ties are to church attendance. The question I’ve had frequently is whether the membership can accept non-believers and former-believers into activities without pressuring them to re-commit, pray, bear testimony, or take callings that require belief. I’m pretty sure leaders don’t want that, even though they literally can’t tell just by looking at a congregation who believes and who just goes along to get along. Given how they handle loss of belief at BYU, they clearly do not tolerate former-believers on any level. But I see that many members do not cut ties on that basis and would probably be fine with people attending activities and church and holding some callings without requiring them to pretend to believe.
Possibly relevant:
https://bahai-library.com/momen_marginality_apostasy
I taught the lesson in Elder’s Quorum last Sunday. We reviewed the church resource “Helping Others with Questions” (found in the Topics and Questions folder of the Gospel Library App). It’s a good resource, I feel like it was written by people with compassion for those who have questions and those who leave.
As part of the lesson, I invited a friend who has lost his belief in the church and no longer attends (but whose wife attends) to share with us from his perspective what makes him feel welcome at activities, and what makes him feel less welcome when he comes to activities. Others asked him questions as well, and he did a great job of sharing his perspectives in a way that showed he’s still a great guy who loves his wife and other people, but he just believes differently now.
One of the reasons why I think it went so well is that he’s someone who had a calm faith crisis, and he doesn’t hold a lot of anger towards the church. He acknowledged that during the lesson, and expressed compassion for those who have been hurt and do hold anger. All in all, I feel like it helped reduce fear and anxiety, and helped to build bridges.
aporetic1,
Wonderful! That’s a discussion that needs to occur in many more LDS settings. One thing I admire about a local Jewish community is that they recognize that there is a broad spectrum of believers/non-believers within their community. As the Rabbi told me “Ask any single Jew about any issue and you’ll get several opinions.” This openness and flexibility has probably contributed to this particular religious community’s viability and vibrancy. Granted, Judaism is an ethno-religion, but the LDS community is about as close to that as can be imagined. Don’t we have “DNA Mormons”? The recognition of a kaleidoscope of Mormonism rather than the messy boundary keeping that has gone on in the past could make the LDS community healthier and more vibrant than what we currently experience. Sure there would be some discomfort in fellowshipping with some who don’t believe what you believe, but isn’t that just an aspect of the belief spectrum we all have to deal with anyway?
Rick B,
These were very informative conversations and I thank you for recording and sharing them. I think the question of “What is the future of Religion?” is a very important one. I imagine the LDS leadership is having these conversations and many policy changes and priorities under President Nelson can be traced to this inquiry. I believe President Monson, as with President Hinckley, were very resistant to change the church to adapt to social changes. But not President Nelson.
I’ll add that if the LDS church all but eliminates the church as a social nexus (which is happening now and will especially happen if meetings are reduced to 1-hour) then members will look elsewhere for friendships and social experiences. The question that keeps coming to my mind is basic: If the LDS church diminishes its “program” in the lives of its members, then what obligation will members feel to the Church? Consider Tithing. Why pay 10% tithing when one gets 66% less church? What exactly is one paying for if one’s “church” is a fleeting experience and it is left up to members to make their own church / social program?
If Catholicism is a reference point than I see the future of the LDS Church to be one that holds cultural sway in certain communities but otherwise for many “members” the church will be just a memory.