I’m sure everyone has seen images and video of the wildfires sweeping through canyons, ridges, and adjacent neighborhoods in the northern reaches of Los Angeles over the course of the last week. The scale of this year’s fires eclipses anything that came before. And this is January, not fire season! This is not a mountain town or a single canyon that is hit by fire. It’s an entire region, bedeviled by drought and now by Santa Ana winds, the strong hot winds that periodically sweep in from the east, then across and down coastal mountain ranges.
First, sympathy to the thousands of people and families who have lost a home and have nothing to return to once the fires are out or at least under control. Likewise for the dozens, possibly hundreds, who lose their lives and the tens of thousands who are forced to evacuate for days or weeks, eventually to return to a surviving home now part of a scarred landscape. The human stories are heartbreaking.
Second, this is a body blow to the California housing market (already stressed) and financial situation. Apart from the huge cost and effort of rebuilding tens of thousands of structures, there will be a home insurance earthquake. It was already happening; this will intensify it. Insurers will either increase premiums substantially or exit the market. Politicians will try to force insurers to keep rates stable and not exit the market. The last-resort “California Fair Plan” insurance program, providing fire insurance to owners who can’t find it elsewhere, will expand, run out of money, and pass along the losses to California taxpayers. Bottom line: everything will go up: insurance premiums, property taxes, and state income taxes (to cover Fair Plan losses). It’s going to be a political and financial disaster that follows the natural disaster. I suspect some of the political and financial fallout will affect all Californians, not just those who live in a fire zone.
Third, how will this affect the Church in California? This may be a minor issue compared to grappling with the immediate problems of widespread devastation and, for displaced families, relocation challenges, but it is still a relevant question. The LDS Church has a significant footprint in California. I’m sure many readers either live in California, did live in California, or have family members currently living there. Here are a few impacts.
First, some wards in residential areas hit by fire may shrink or disappear. It may take years for those affected to rebuilt and return; others will never return. It’s hard to run a ward when it suddenly shrinks by 50%. So some units will certainly be combined to maintain the needed bodies to constitute an active LDS ward.
Second, some LDS families will simply move to Idaho or Utah, close to other family members. This is certainly true for those who lose a home but will also be the choice of others who, faced with increased costs noted above, just sell and return to the mother ship. This happened in significant numbers during Covid and, as a result, some LDS units already had to combine. This will be another wave of California exits and LDS unit shrinkage.
Third, there will be a few stories of LDS crews in yellow shirts helping afflicted families. But this is different from the standard LDS helping hands efforts. The scale is too large. It’s not like a post-hurricane scenario where ten LDS guys with shovels can show up and help a family dig mud out of the basement. There is no basement left, there is no house left. It’s not like LDS construction crews are going to show up and rebuild a house. There will be stories about an LDS chapel serving as an emergency shelter (maybe, not generally a thing) and some families taking in a displaced family for a month or two. But, on the whole, the damage is so catastrophic that there simply isn’t much left for an LDS work crew to do, unless they have fire training and equipment (they don’t).
Finally, let’s all give thanks to the firefighters, police, and volunteers who, right now, are still fighting the fires. If you are the praying type, ask for rain, lots of rain.
Wheat & Tares 
Amen. And also pray for some sanity and reason and the right, who are already attacking this disaster as a result of climate change and are thus determined to take action; wait, I mean are blaming it on immigrants and DEI initiatives and are thus taking action to further marginalize and dehumanizie fellow humans and charitable actions. Some people’s sense of humanity only extends to themselves.
I pray for all those who have lost loved ones, homes, or are otherwise affected by the tragic fires. Sympathy for all those homeowners who must still pay expensive mortgages while finding new places to live. Many will have a very tough time collecting insurance money, because the insurance companies simply lack the funds. Class action lawsuits against the insurers could drag on for years, with some insurers declaring bankruptcy or pulling a “Texas two-step.” Maybe the California state government or even the Federal government will bailout the homeowners or the “too big to fail” insurance companies.
Very touchy subject, but to what extent will the LDS Church provide financial assistance to its members who have lost their homes?
“Goodbye California”? That’s the title you went with? The subtext is you’re one of those people who think that California deserves this because they’re “woke” or melting liberals. You’ve only put speculation here, with no facts. How about some empathy? How about talking to someone from California? Who actually LIVES here, in L.A.? How about capturing some of the beautiful things that are happening with people reaching out to complete strangers, the gorgeous acts of Christlike love and compassion? No, you chose instead to go the doomsday route and say, “Buh-bye Felicia.” It’s not helpful. It’s definitely not Christlike. Telling people to pray for rain, sure, do that. We need it. But please, save your empty platitudes. Pray for yourself to find some empathy. Brian has the right idea and understanding that this is due to extreme capitalism that has prevented global warming initatives from taking place.
California has the 5th highest GDP in the world. Yes, world, not the US. It’s the highest in the US with $4.080 trillion gross state product (GSP) as of 2024. It’s not going anywhere.
What is happening is gorgeous. I’m not saying I want more tragedy to befall us here, but what is coming out of it is like a phoenix rising from the ashes.
How dare you bid farewell to California or to the church here.
I grew up in Calabasas, California. Our ward building was in a development that came to be known as “Mormon Hill.” The developer was obviously a Church member, as the streets around the ward building had names like Deseret Drive, Cumorah Crest Drive, and Liahona Place. I have many fond memories of that building, which, as of now, is thankfully still untouched by the fires.
Many of my childhood friends, however, have not been so fortunate. I have watched as several have posted pictures on social media of the smoldering ruins of what used to be their homes. If you can give them nothing else, give them your prayers. If you are in a position to give them any of your time and resources, that will be greatly appreciated.
I remember many fires and other natural and manmade disasters in that area growing up, but none nearly as devastating as these wildfires. Every time disaster struck, however, Church members went out of their way to serve and lift and help those affected. In the wake of this kind of suffering, the Church is at its best. I have no doubt that will be the case this time around, too.
There is no doubt that mistakes and misjudgments have been made at the county and state level in LA County and California that are now becoming more apparent. But it’s also true that there’s a pile of misinformation out there that is quite obviously politically motivated. Juan Williams, the token liberal on Fox News’s Bret Baier Show, made a wonderful point last night. He said that when he looks at the events of the last week in California he sees a horrific natural disaster and high degree of human suffering while a segment of the population out there skips over that and just sees politics. Thus, the constant attacks on Cal governor Gavin Newsome from Trump and Musk from day 1.
Can we let the fires be extinguished first before we go into full political mode? Or is it just too tempting to never let a good crisis go to waste (shout out to Rahm Emanual)? I am no fan of Gavin Newsom and neither are my two liberal daughters who live in California (including one in Brentwood). But for Trump and Musk to go into full attack mode before we really know anything is despicable.
Remember when Trump went after FEMA and Biden last September during the floods in the SE until Georgia governor Brian Kemp (a Republican) publicly disputed Trump’s version of reality? Remember when Trump went after illegal immigrants after the car attack in New Orleans on New Years Day and then we found out the driver was an American who served in the US Army?
I’m a small government guy generally but I hope the federal government is ready to step up and help the people in California who have lost everything. I’m pretty concerned about what to expect. Trump has a track record of viewing federal help contingent on the behavior of the recipients. He sees Newsom as public enemy #1 now that Biden and Harris are out of the picture. And even Mike Johnson (Speaker of the House) is now saying aid to California will be tied to policy changes there.
Finally, I am utterly disgusted with my fellow Americans who imply (or even state directly) that Californians deserve what they get because they voted for liberal woke politicians. Right wing podcaster Adam Carolla said this very thing on Megyn Kelly’s show last week. Is that where we are now as a country? Do we feel more sympathy for folks who vote the way we vote? Do we feel more sympathy for folks who share our religious views? If so I’m even more disgusted.
I live in Irvine and you can’t even tell there is a wildfire 50 miles away except for the wind gusts which are mostly cold actually. But I was driving to LA last Tuesday night to teach a two-day course in our downtown office. It was bedlam. My hotel was overrun with people who had evacuated looking for a place to stay, and my hotel room on the 40th floor had quite the view of the Pacific Palisades fire. Very sad. At least seven of my LA colleagues have lost their homes. I will say though, the sentiment locally is that we are strong and we will re-build our city of Angels.
I disagree with Bishop Bill that this is going to be California’s problem. Homeowners in hurricane alley are already suing their insurance companies who won’t pay for flood damage to their homes. This while the CEO of one major insurance company took home $24M last year. So barring another Luigi Mangione moment, I think we are looking at government bailouts of yet another industry. Which is fine.
I think the long term solution is to require that certain industries, including insurance, become not-for-profit. To wit, I get my life insurance through AICPA, and it’s non-profit. Since there is no return promised to shareholders, I actually get a refund every year on my premiums. Imagine that.
Oh and I 100% agree with the meme that says socialism is the fire department showing up to your house fire. Capitalism is your insurance company denying your claim.
When it comes to insurance, floods and fire are different. Fire coverage is standard in every homeowners policy. Flooding is more complicated. I don’t understand the nuances of flood insurance well enough to explain them, but I will say that insurance companied have far fewer excuses for not paying fire claims than for not paying flood claims. So I expect that most claims will be paid. The insurance companies themselves have insurance (that’s literally what Lloyds of London does–insure insurance companies), so they won’t run out of money. But the premiums going forward will be a nightmare.
I’m not going to Wade in on California politics or shady insurance practices, but I’m pretty confident Los Angelinos are going to rebuild just like every other community in the United States does after every disaster. (I mean, as far as I know, the Gulf Coast hasn’t emptied out).
As far as the Mormon angle, I disagree that that wards in California are going to basically empty out. If you’re lower income (or like most normal people), you don’t exactly have the thousands of dollars lying around to move to another state. If you live in one of those really nice houses that burned down, you probably have a really nice job in LA – the type of job that no one is just giving away, not in Utah and definitely not in Idaho. So no, I don’t think Mormons will be fleeing CA in masse.
Finally, I don’t see any evidence to suggest that the Church won’t be just as involved in these recovery efforts as they have been in every other natural disaster for as long as I can remember (after the fire is under control, of course). Not sure why Dave B is catastrophizing a catastrophy.
I served a mission in Orange County, CA, and my daughter has lived in the LA area (Glassel Park near Glendale) for the past 15 years or so. When I talk with her, she’s very upset because she’s had co-workers who have lost their houses. She was only a couple of miles from the evacuation zone north of the 134, and she lives one exit south on the 2. We have talked a lot and I’ve been getting a lot of news from NPR and CBS about what’s happening there.
It’s nice to see the church helping. I hope it’s given without using it as a missionary tool but done with a pure heart. I don’t think the LDS people will leave. California is a great place to live for a lot of reasons and they will rebuild instead of abandon.
The thing that has bothered me the most is the politicization of it before the fire is even out. Republicans pointing fingers, using it to disparage liberalism, misrepresenting facts to make their point, ignoring science both in the cause and in fighting the fire (you can only put so much water in tanks), even mentioning strings being tied to aid, and finally Trump and his name-calling of political state and local leaders.
California will rebuild. Its economy will be dented but will ultimately rebound to even greater heights. They will look at their building standards and laws and refine them to try and minimize this disaster from happening again. Finally, the people of California will come together to help each other, showing that liberal people also care about their community and have the ability to get together, fix problems, and care about people other than themselves. In the end, based on the reactions of the people of CA and the incoming Trump/Republican administration, CA will be just fine, and the smear of soot will be on the faces and souls of outsiders doing all the name-calling or putting ties on legislation to help CA.
I issue my strongest possible condemnation to the fires that have been devastating California.
Last Lemming is correct. The insurance companies, especially the large ones, are very well capitalized and have enough with their own resources or with reinsurance to pay the claims. There are a lot less loopholes for them to get out of paying fire claims. Yes, they will raise rates as they are entitled to do under recent changes in California laws and regs which also require them to remain in the state and providing coverage if they have done so. Oddly enough, inflation, which affects the entire economy, has been a bigger challenge to insurance companies than catastrophes. Of course Insurance can only help so much with the human suffering that has resulted from this. It’s a good thing that there are compassionate people of all stripes that are willing to help, and it’s good to hear about the Church’s efforts. https://www.patreon.com/posts/119915711?utm_campaign=postshare_fan
The non-stop politicization of this tragedy is truly sickening. I’m so tired of hearing the right-wing propaganda myth that fires in California are due to liberal politics and the gross negligence of the Democratic administrators. The fires are an extraordinary event and so far it appears that there wasn’t much that could have been done to prevent this. Did we hear any insulting of Ron Desantis when hurricanes hit Florida? Did Biden threaten to withhold aid to states run by Republican governors unless they stopped being so conservative? Bear in mind that California is the economic engine of the United States. We should all be rooting for it and hoping for its prosperity. California is subsidizing the rest of the US, as well. In 2022 it paid $83 billion more in federal taxes than it got back from the federal government. It was one of only six states to do so, the others being Minnesota, Washington, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and New Hampshire. California is second to New York in productivity. It outpaces the productivity of the entire US.
California will rebuild. It is not going away by any means. Nor is it going to just all of a sudden stop thriving. This is a temporary setback. A costly one, yes, but temporary. This fire is a yet another wake-up call to take action against climate change. Since 1980 the number of natural disasters costing over $1 billion dollars in damage (CPI adjusted) has gone up 5 times. Median number in the 1980s was 4 and in the 2020s so far, the median number has been 20. Climate change is behind this. It is behind the extraordinarily dry winter on the Southern California coast. Expect more fires (really anywhere in the US), more flooding, more droughts, more hurricanes, more extraordinary freezing, more heat waves, more houses on the coast being swept away by the rising ocean levels, and more strains on resources not just in the US, but across the globe. We waste our time pointing fingers in California. We move to alternative energy sources as quickly as we can, or else we face increasingly dire circumstances moving forward. Trump has to commit to climate action, or else we slid further into doom.
Is it ok if I don’t “blame” the fires on California Democrats or climate change (i.e., Republicans) and simply say that there are many factors that have contributed to this tragedy?
Sorry, bringing up the basic fact of climate change and how it is accelerating disasters throughout the world isn’t inherently pointing fingers at Republicans per se, although I do point fingers at Trump and all climate deniers. It most certainly isn’t the same thing as blaming Democratic mismanagement for the disaster. Bear in mind that many Republicans acknowledge the reality of climate change and have proposed action against it. The fire may not be directly due to climate change. But it really seems to be. The dried vegetation is due to an extended period without rain, which is due to climate change. The US cannot solve the climate crisis alone, but it plays a very important world role.
Brad D’s list of states paying more in taxes than what they get back from the federal government is incomplete. Roger Terry just posted the complete list on his blog:
What a terrifying experience. All those people losing their homes and scrambling to find a place to live and rebuild. I expect California will come through this. I’m also going to assume that most people are devastated at what’s happening and want to help, and it’s just a loud and obnoxious minority who are being loud and cruel.
On my “books to read” pile is one called “A Paradise Built in Hell: The Extraordinary Communities that Arise in Disaster” by Rebecca Solnit. It’s a nonfiction book researching exactly what the title says — the way communities rise to the occasion to rebuild and help each other.
I checked the LDS newsroom to see if the Church is sending help. This is from Jan 10:
“Emergency supplies are being provided to those in need through local bishops’ storehouses and the Bishops’ Central Storehouse in Salt Lake City. Today, for example, 1,500 cases of bottled water are being delivered to areas most impacted by the wildfires.
Approximately 1,000 Latter-day Saints have been evacuated and are staying with relatives, friends, fellow Church members or other lodging. More than 30 Latter-day Saints’ homes have been destroyed. Church buildings have been made available for community staging and shelter.”
It sounds like the Church is stepping up, and I’m sure there will be more help offered as the needs can be categorized. The Church doesn’t typically put a lot of help on the ground (other than Helping Hands). It’s preferred method is to make a big cash contribution to existing charities. I bet in the next month or so, the Church will announce a whopping huge donation to a charity already working in California to help rebuild.
For those not critical of the California government, may I ask what is the purpose of the California government? Fires are a known risk in SoCal and the Santa Ana winds occur every year! Fire mitigation has known methods. Fire fighting has known parameters. California governments failed to to mitigate the fire risk and they failed to prepare and provide the resources to fight the fires.
If you heard your local swim center had 20 swimmers drown last year would you be an apologist for the swim center? Would you argue that the swim center was not at fault because it spent lots money on lifeguards? Or would you recognize that something is horribly wrong with how the swim center operates?
Something is horribly wrong with how Los Angeles and the state of California operates. What exactly is wrong demands critical assessment.
And if the mayor and governor and fire chief are not to be held accountable, then where does the buck stop? How did America arrive at the point that it elects politicians to high office and then has such low expectations of those politicians protecting the people who they are charged to serve?
What exactly is the job of the mayor of Los Angeles? What is the job of the governor of California?
Brad D,
So called “climate change” resulted in California having above average rain in 2023 and 2024. This rain alleviated drought conditions that had been impacting the state.
The rain also increased the growth of vegetation. This vegetation became fuel for the wildfires. This is a known, natural cycle. Mitigation of the fire risk demands the clearing of brush, especially following wet years.
Furthermore, wildfire has been burning homes in the hills and canyons of the Santa Monica and the San Gabriel mountains for the past century and more. No amount of “green policy” will solve the fire risk. Only diligent and consistent effort to clear brush and reduce the fuel available to burn, and having building codes that protect structures from burning, and having abundant resources to suppress fires once they start will matter.
Even if “climate change” was real, there is no basis for believing or claiming the climate agenda would make any difference to the natural phenomenon of fires in the mountains of southern California.
Hindsight is 20/20 with shoulda, woulda, coulda. The reality is there is always a large group of people who are constantly yelling for tax cuts. It’s at the city, state, and federal level. It’s easy to point fingers after the fact and say what should have been done. Still, it’s impossible to get done because you can’t predict the future and justify a huge expense to cover some unimagined and never-happened tragedy. To put down LA or California government for not doing what should have been done to prevent this tragedy ignores all the systems, equipment, regulations, construction codes, and people they have put in place that have made it much better than it could have been. There isn’t a city in Utah or the rest of the nation that could withstand 100 MPH winds in bone-dry conditions in a place where it rains for part of the year and is dry the rest so you get the growth without the continued nourishment. We should already know this in Utah where it’s green in the spring when it rains and a week after the rain stops and the temperature rises, everything is brown.
As for climate change, it is real. It doesn’t have an agenda (only the politicians and their supporters who deny it do). It is a chemical reaction to years of man-made pollution being introduced to an already natural swing in temperatures and moisture, which increases the size and severity of the swings. If someone can’t see this, they must suffer from the same malady as those who blinded Galileo, who used science to see beyond this earth.
So when I see Republicans who constantly want to cut taxes, dismantle government, and punish or legislate those who don’t believe like they do, putting down CA or even LA for how they do things, I know it is politically motivated and not based on an honest view of what would really or could not have been done. Republicans couldn’t stop hurricanes in FL or Louisiana or stop the damage they inflicted, and the only time help was delayed was when other Republicans were in charge of the Federal Government and they wanted to get rid of public schools and replace them with Charter Schools or some other nefarious reason like that. Just look at Katrina. If someone had never served in a local or state government position and never had to face the public when there was a problem that needed to be solved that would cost money even though the problem was in the future and “may” only happen (in other words to be prepared), they should realize they have no credibility. They should count their blessings they don’t have to deal with the tragedy and should support and help those affected.
Instereo wrote:
“Still, it’s impossible to get done because you can’t predict the future and justify a huge expense to cover some unimagined and never-happened tragedy.”
This is incorrect. Wildfires in the mountains surrounding northern LA county are a regular occurrence. In 2018 a wildfire started in Ventura county, went up over the Santa Monica mountains and burned whole neighborhoods in Malibu. Pepperdine University is located in Malibu and it was threatened by that fire and the many others that flare up. Pepperdine takes a proactive approach to mitigating fire risk. This includes clearing brush from around buildings, using fire-retardant materials in the buildings, having fire breaks around the campus and having its own fire trucks that actively patrol to identify and extinguish flareups.
Pepperdine University has not burned down.
And Altadena burning? This is tragic. But Altadena was burned by fire in 1993 from the same Eaton Canyon location – the damage was just a lot smaller. Addressing fire risk is not a matter of predicting the future but of recognizing what is real and constantly relevant.
In my area of Maryland there is a town that experienced two severe floods in the course of two years due to the storm drainage being inadequate. After the second flood the government stopped making excuses and initiated a massive project to build the infrastructure to fix the flooding problem. Existing obstructions to storm drainage were cleared, including removing some buildings, retentions ponds were built, and the final piece is the construction of new, massive drainage tunnels to ensure water is carried away without flowing down main street.
It is possible this buildout will not matter or have been needed for another 100 years. But doing nothing was clearly not working. Blaming “climate change” didn’t fix the problem. The only sure remedy was to engineer a better system of water drainage.
Los Angeles officials watched Malibu burn in 2018 and what did they do? Did they implement an active, disciplined program of removing brush from county lands and supporting home owners in clearing brush? Did they build out water mains and water pumps, and fill reservoirs to ensure abundant water was available to suppress fires? Did they support having sufficient fire patrols to canvas communities and suppress flareups? Did they do for the county what Pepperdine officials do for its campus? No, they did not.
The website wildfirela dot org has a history page. I recommend all take a look at it. Fire has threatened Los Angeles ever since humans settled there. All the areas destroyed by fires this past month were burned previously. The future of fire in Los Angeles is very, very predictable and one did not and does not need to imagine the risk. One just needs to read or have a memory, preferably both.
As an Angelino I echo the comments that acknowledge that growth-and-burn is a well established fact of the natural ecology of much of Los Angeles. Los Angeles, whose livability is enormously enhanced by the existence and work of the Santa Monica Mountain Conservancy, saw the extent of the largest Pacific Palisades fire made possible by the Santa Monica Mountain Conservancy green space. It will regrow and once again provide us with oxygen, open space and the glories of nature. It will once again be the fuel that’s available as climate change exacerbates cycles of wet and dry. There’s no escaping these facts of nature.
As to the “responsibility” for a very natural disaster, that lies not with current politicians who responded to the demands of lower taxes affording diminished services but past politicians and zoning offices that decades ago bowed to wealthy developers who insisted on building in risky but scenic areas and the home owners who chose to live there.
I can well remember discussing this exact potential catastrophe with fire officials following 911 and their response that “living in the fuel” was their greatest fear and frustration. At the time they said they could not, would not send personnel and equipment into areas where they couldn’t guarantee their safety and survival. When the time came they — members of the LAFD and other fire fighters from other states, other countries and even prison inmates — rose to the challenge magnificently despite the odds and dangers they faced themselves.
The Los Angeles–Long Beach combined statistical area (CSA) covers 33,954 square miles (87,940 km2), making it the largest metropolitan region in the United States by land area. The contiguous urban area is 2,281 square miles (5,910 km2). It has a population of over 18.3 million. As you can see, the majority of the area is not covered with urban sprawl but is green space where mountains make it very hard to build and is also desired by people in the area for recreation and beauty.
In contrast, the Baltimore statistical area which covers seven counties surrounding Baltimore is 2985 sq. miles and with a population of 2.98 million.
The population density for the Baltimore area is about 1200 per sq. mile while the LA metro area is about 2400 per sq. mile.
There are 88 cities and 140 unincorporated areas just within the boundaries of the city of Los Angeles, which makes zoning and other building regulations extremely complex to administer. If one thing gets “fixed” in one community and makes building too expensive, developers just go somewhere else because people want to live in the LA area. I’m sure developers do this nationwide. So, the LA fire is not solely the result of the mismanagement of one entity, Los Angeles. It’s a combination of growth, greed, capitalism, and climate.
As for Pepperdine University. I’m glad it hasn’t burnt down, but elementary schools have, and shopping centers have all in addition to the thousands of homes on normal streets without the flammable materials around them that are in the mountains. But the real reason Pepperdine has not been affected is because the Palisade Fire is 2.5 miles east of Pepperdine and would have to burn through the main part of the city of Malibu.
Finally, there is a randomness with wildfire that supersedes regulations and codes. Living in Utah and having wildfires come close to my little town, it’s amazing to see how the fire turns this direction or that direction, burns this grove of trees, and then misses that grove of trees. Los Angeles has fires, earthquakes, and could even have Tsunamis, but people choose to live there because it’s beautiful and has a powerful economic engine. (The LA Metro has a GNP of 1.3 Trillion vs. Baltimore’s 241 billion, which could also be stated as 1300 billion vs. 241 billion or about 5 times the size).
It’s hard to trust the arguments of one side or another today in our divisive society when they seem to be built on some enemy to whatever it is a side believes. People spout opinions as facts or makeup facts to support opinions and beliefs. We call shots as we see them from afar and ignore the people who are on the ground. I live in Utah and think both LA and Baltimore have beautiful things about their cities. I think of my little town, being on the city council, and am thankful we don’t have to deal with a huge wildfire fanned by 100 MPH winds because we couldn’t deal with it and would have to say goodbye to our homes, too. It wouldn’t be because of anything we could have done either, but because of the decisions of many who built and came before us. We just chose to live here because it met our needs at the time. My city is only one sq mile with 650 people and not the massive cosmopolitan area of 32K square miles and 18.3 million people.
I’d like to see the state of California condemn all the land in Malibu between the Pacific Coast Highway (CA 1) and the water to make it all public beach. It is almost am aesthetic crime to block the gorgeous view of the water by all those houses. The state would have to use eminent domain and would have to pay fair prices, but now would be a good time for the state to take control of the land between the road and the water for what I think is a legitimate public purpose.
From AI:
/California’s GDP ranks fifth in the world, behind the United States, China, Germany, and Japan. California’s GDP was about $3.9 trillion in 2023, which is 14% of the national GDP.
California has just over 39million people, which is to say that approximately 1 in 8 Americans live in California.
And yet California has 2 US Senators to fight the GOP which is posturing that it wants to limit aid to CA or provide it with serious restrictions and demands. And this is despite the fact that CA taxes have historically paid a huge portion of the taxes that fund FEMA and have provided aid around the country, when and where needed, without limitation.
Instereo,
When the foolish man builds his house on the sand, who is responsible when the house is washed away?
When a person builds a house in an area known to have fires, who is responsible when fires burn the house down? Should persons who build houses where there is a known risk be responsible for mitigating that risk?
It is one thing if a risk is so extremely low that it could not be anticipated. My house could be hit by debris falling out of space, but I cannot anticipate that happening.
We can anticipate fires sweeping through the canyons and foothills of Los Angeles. Are people who build there foolish? Are there ways to make the decision less foolish? Who is responsible for making it not foolish to build a house where wildfires are known to burn?
If the risk of houses burning down in north LA county cannot be mitigated, why are we not identifying as foolish those who build there?
Those questioning the validity of climate change https://science.nasa.gov/climate-change/ please read some reliable information. The nation’s of the world have been meeting to address this issue, and have made commitments to try and turn it around.
Hopefully those efforts will continue in parts of America in spite of trump.
The population of the US is about 4.2% of the world but it produces 14.5% of the co2.
The forest fires, floods, droughts etc are the result of extreme weather caused by climate change. Once co2 is in the atmosphere it continues to accumulate. 4 more years of America not trying to help the world is a disaster.
The California fires are an example of the new normal. As the world becomes less able to sustain human life the relatively wealthy are contributing more but the poorer are more affected.
Think what you can do to help?
A Disciple, my first question is, what exactly would convince you that anthropogenic climate change is real? Do you hold the belief that climate change isn’t real or even possible absolutely?
Are oceans levels rising? Why?
Are average temperatures around the globe getting hotter? Why?
Are there more $1 billion-costing natural disasters in the US than there used to be? Why?
Has the average number of acres burned by fires in California gone up or down? Why?
Are there more fires across the globe than there used to be (even in red states which know that clearing brush is the answer while those dumb liberal Californians don’t)?
It just seems so obvious. How can you continue to deny this reality?
I could come here and post about how we silly it is to think we can eliminate fire risk when wildfires are a feature and not a bug of our planet. I could come here post about how even controlled burns get out of control frequently (my brother does this for the BLM and they get out of control a lot). I could come and post how paving over the mountain or eliminating the vegetation completely would have severe unintended consequences to our planet like mudslides and destroying entire ecosystems. I could come here and list all the things we do to mitigate fires like roaming goat herds that eat the vegetation (my kids love seeing them when we hike) or firebreaks or turning off electricity during wind storms. But when the poster casting shade on 40 million Californians also denies climate change, what’s the point?
So what I will say is this. A Disciple is a bully. His words are hurtful. The fires are still raging and here he is claiming the high ground. Gross. Given that he never spoke up telling everyone in FL to shove it when their neighborhood flooded or isn’t interested in holding leaders accountable for school shootings shows he’s simply here for the rage bait. Take a bow.
A Disciple:
People have just had a horrible tragedy, and you have resorted to calling them foolish and laying the whole building on sand symbolism on them. That’s very Christian of you. I’m happy you are so prepared for your life’s decisions so as not to be counted foolish.
Considering all the tragedies we’ve had in our country (worldwide, for that matter), we could call people foolish for living in Florida, Texas, or Louisiana. We could also include Arizona because of potential water problems or Utah for building their communities to the edge of the mountains because of fire danger, not having enough water, the yearly inversions of air pollution, and the potential overdue earthquake. There’s the Northwest with its fire danger and overpopulation. We could include New Jersey and New York for potential hurricanes or ice storms like Sandy that flood out neighborhoods, subways, etc. We could include anyone along the Atlantic Seaboard who lives too close to the ocean and encroaches on natural sea barriers or even eliminates them in their quest for development. There are even places in our country where they build homes on top of industrial landfills like Niagra Falls. Should all these people be labeled fools, or just the developers or the politicians who let it happen?
In Utah, the legislature just passed a law that made it so City Planning and Zoning Committees and even City Councils could not be involved with or deny a developer’s request to build a subdivision. They only have to comply with a subdivision ordinance and get administrative approval from a committee set up by the city but can’t include a Planning and Zoning Committee Member or a Member of the City Council. I’m sure every city’s subdivision ordinance will be complete enough to anticipate all the ways developers can abuse common sense while still remaining legal. Cities are just waiting for problems and hoping their ordinances are through enough to prevent upcoming disasters. I don’t think they are foolish, either.
For the sake of people who get their information about global climate change from Fox News, the parent Fox organization has a rigorous recycling program in all of their offices. Beyond that, they actually employ a small army of people who sort through the trash generated by Fox facilities to ensure that nothing recyclable falls through the cracks. Think that indicates what their actual attitude on the state of the environment may be?
Aside from that, there was a point when Fox offered a significant bonus to employees for switching to clean air vehicles and they attempted to require some employees whose job descriptions involved driving to use Fox-supplied clean air vehicles. The latter failed when those employees vigorously objected to losing mileage allowance income but Fox, at least formulated that plan to eliminate that source of air pollution. Enough evidence now?
Just in case the foregoing doesn’t tell the tale yet Fox also invested in the development of electric-powered 5-ton trucks for their transport fleet.
Next time you listen to the sarcasm of their “news” presenters, factor these facts into the equation and look again at the actual evidence of record-breaking hurricanes, draughts and fires before you draw your own conclusion.
I typically dodge the task of countering the misinformation sown by people who listen to rightwing news. So a second kudos and thank you to Instereo, Chadwick, Brad D, and alice for correcting A Disciple’s senseless blame game.
Pointing out that choices have consequences is not a “senseless blame game”. Consider that after the 1986 Space Shuttle explosion, NASA management claimed the disaster was a complete surprise. The physicist Richard Feynman investigated and he found the disaster was entirely predictable. Engineers from Thiokol, the rocket engine manufacturer, even warned NASA the day before the launch that the cold temperatures put the flight at increased risk. Launching the space shuttle that January morning in 1986 was managerial overconfidence that killed 7 people.
By the way, one of the key observations Feynman made was that the actual statistical risk of shuttle failure on any given launch was on the order of 1 in 100. NASA claimed a failure risk of 1 in 100,000! There were 135 space shuttle missions. Two of those missions ended with total shuttle failure and loss of life of all shuttle occupants – Feynman was correct and NASA terribly wrong.
If the public understood the true risk of the space shuttle WOULD IT HAVE SUPPORTED PUTTING A PUBLIC TEACHER ON IT? Oh, but we the people did and with enthusiasm, because NASA lied or was willfully ignorant of the actual risk.
This AP News Article from 2023 about the California home insurance market explicitly mentions “increasing wildfire risks”. Wildfires were a statewide concern for the insurance industry, but what did state officials choose to do about it? We can agree that insurance companies are greedy and care most about their profits. This self-interest caused insurance companies to be aware of the fire risk. But shouldn’t homeowner have their own self-interest to protect their homes and communities?
Ignorance kills. The natural world does not care about wishful thinking. Mankind only survives in this world when it respects the realities of the natural world. The sole reason 8 billion people can live on the earth in this current time is because mankind has engineered solutions to temper the harshness of nature.
There are ways to make it safer to live near the canyons and mountains of southern California. But humans have to be proactive about removing the brush that fuels fires and humans have to design a fire suppression system that can rapidly respond to fire before it becomes an inferno. If humans fail to do this, then it is not unreasonable and not unkind to point out that it is foolish for humans to live where fires are a known risk and have potential to sweep the area.
If you are familiar with the Little House on the Prairie books you may appreciate that a theme of these books is people have to respect nature. The family endures prairie fire and blizzards and it is only through ingenuity they survive. In one of the books the father teaches his daughter Laura an important lesson. Animals are born to do what their species does and so a muskrat builds a muskrat home that can endure the cold of winter. But man can build whatever home he wants. If that home fails to keep out the weather then that is the man’s problem. This quote and discussion is found in the excellent essay Lessons in Liberty from Laura Ingalls Wilder
“Look at that muskrat house. Muskrats have to build that kind of house. They always have and they always will. It’s plain they can’t build any other kind. But folks build all kinds of houses. A man can build any kind of house he can think of. So if his house don’t keep out the weather, that’s his look-out; he’s free and independent.”
I leave you with this final thought: If homes are rebuilt in Los Angeles where they have currently burned and the same methods of fire management are used, then why would we not expect those homes to burn again? The only justification for rebuilding will be if fire management policy changes. Those changes will be an admission that current fire management policy and actions was inadequate.
Every conservative position when boiled down to its most fundamental element can be summarized thusly:
“Keep your hands off of my money.”
@ A Disciple: “Ignorance kills.”
True dat. Like ignorance about climate change, for example.
Also, so does hate and greed and selfishness.
I’m always so surprised that people who have made ‘acting in your own self interest’ a moral good can’t seem to figure out why people are acting so selfishly; and why people who argue for less government non-stop then complain that government didn’t function correctly. It’s truly amazing.
A Disciple, at what point to you acknowledge that extraordinary winds, due to irregular pressure systems, exacerbated in part by climate change, are to blame for the Palisades fires? There is no evidence that anything could have been done to fully prevent this. Please stop blaming the management. You seriously don’t think that fire departments and the forestry in California aren’t acutely aware of fire risk in their state? You seriously don’t think that fire safety isn’t a top priority for the state government? You seriously think that your armchair quarterbacking holds all the answers for the problem in California fires? Everything you have said about the California fires thus far reveals not only a massive ignorance about the problem, but an extreme arrogance. We can at least inform ignorance. Arrogance is immune to information.
Brad D,
There is ample evidence that proactive measures could have mitigated the loss. One of these points of evidence is some homes and properties were successfully protected from the fires by the efforts of the property owner. There is a cruel and immoral aspect of your defense of the government and residents of California. It is that since so many homes were lost that one must conclude the disaster could not have been prevented. This points to the rational that the larger the failure, the greater the excuse for those who could have done something about it.
There is a strange vibe in American culture that allows government officials to avoid accountability for failing at their actual and literal job. Can you explain this? As I asked in my first comment on this topic, if California government cannot keep entire communities from burning down, what is the point of California government? What higher priority responsibility is there for California government than protecting communities known to be at risk from fire from being destroyed by fire?
What is amazing is how little was done by state officials as the threat of wildfire grew. The mayor left on an overseas trip despite the National Weather Service warning of extreme fire conditions. Then the Fire Chief of the Pacific Palisades department chose not to preposition fire engines. L.A. fire officials could have put engines in the Palisades before the fire broke out. They didn’t
Of course the mayor and the fire chief have their reasons for the choices made. They chose poorly. But according to you and even a majority of Californians, they shouldn’t be held accountable for their choices.
Fine. But why put people in executive positions and pay them huge salaries if it doesn’t matter what decisions they make? Is it not odd how the prevailing mindset of California government and its supporters is that of helplessness? If the government is helpless to handle important problems, then what is the point of that government?
And by the way, the “armchair quarterbacking” about California fire management includes people who are very expert at understanding the failures and errors that occurred. You might want to refrain at denouncing criticism as “ignorant”. The facts will show that California officials failed to in their responsibility to protect their communities. But we don’t need to wait for all the facts to be gathered to draw initial conclusions. The pictures and stories of the fires show the government failed to protect the people from a known risk. If they did nothing wrong then those communities should never be rebuilt. Yet we know the houses will be rebuilt and next time will be different. Why will the next time be different?
Propaganda. All you seem to care about is how you can exploit this crisis to blame liberals and Democrats. You care nothing of the actual crisis itself and its root causes. You believe lies and liars. You live in an alternate reality. One that is poisoning humanity.
Also, in your ideal world there would be no governments to protect people from fire. Fires would just burn.
Your ideal world is an anarchic fantasy that burns.
“One of these points of evidence is some homes and properties were successfully protected from the fires by the efforts of the property owner. “
This literally makes me want to scream.
We don’t even know the final death toll yet but it will be largely composed of people who stayed to “save their homes” when ordered to evacuate. People forget that a fire burning with the ferocity of the Pacific Palisades fire will consume all the oxygen in the atmosphere and suffocate someone before a flame touches their body. Note all the oxygen tanks that fire fighters were wearing! And those homes that did manage to avoid the flames did so as much or far more so because of the vagaries of the wind speed and direction as folks training water on them.
People who don’t live in the highly flammable resinous ecosystem of California and who don’t experience the Santa Ana winds would do well not to assess blame and hand out advice. Meanwhile, holding individuals and local and state officials responsible for the extreme weather that had our humidity at about 8% can better direct their efforts at demanding the tides cease.
There will be a time and an appropriate group to assess what happened and how to move forward but no one who built or bought homes 50 years ago or more had any way to predict climate change and the risks and consequences it would bring. Furthermore, the folks who are always demanding tax breaks or grumbling about what they pay instead of investing in their own communities can swallow their own tongues.
Typically when one house catches on fire, 3 fire-fighting trucks and 13 firefighters are sent to fight the fire.
Now imagine that embers from a fire are being dispersed with the help of winds up to 100 mph—whole neighborhoods are on fire!
The issue is that a typical fire hydrants and other components weren’t developed to fight such overwhelming fires.
I don’t think this will be the end of California. There were people writing off San Francisco after the 1906 earthquake.
Church Leaders have been doing seismic upgrade to LDS Landmarks, like the Joseph Smith building in Salt Lake, the Tabernacle, and, of course, the Salt Lake Temple. But, how many members along the Wasatch front have upgraded their homes against earthquakes?
Remember:
The largest number of Mormons living outside of UT, live in California.
The Church also owns a lot of farmland in CA. (I don’t know how much acreage but I do know people on the church side who are involved and other non-church side involved in agriculture in CA.
Hurricanes happen every year in the south. What do those states do to mitigate the destruction? Has there ever been a POTUS suggesting they don’t deserve FEMA aid?
BTW.
When a single house catches on fire, 2-3 fire trucks and multiple firefighters go the scene. Now, think what happens when there are multiple houses on a single street on fire.
Now think about multiple houses on multiple streets. There is no infrastructure within any state that can handle that scenario. Fire hydrants aren’t designed to handle that. We live on a street with 8 houses—one on top of a hill—and have one fire hydrant.