I will probably regret posting about the election, but here goes.
There are a lot of election posts / threads right now, but decided to share what I’ve been talking to my kids about to help them put this result into context and not feel so hopeless and hurt.
Let me preface with the following:
(1) I can’t stand Trump, I too am hurt that so many Americans are willing to vote for him and would sooner elect a felon than a black woman and would sooner give Trump nuclear codes than women the ability to choose whether and when to have children. I donated more money than I’ve ever donated to political campaigns to Harris, I think Trump is incredibly dangerous and authoritarian and a threat to democracy, not a good leader, does not have good policy ideas, and mean and a bully. So please don’t take any of the below as softening on that stance.
(2) These are thoughts I am sharing with my rich, white kids. I would not interrupt someone’s grief with this because I’m not trying to explain anything away, particularly someone who is at higher personal risk from Trumpism than my family is. If you are still really hurting, and you are not emotionally ready to read some thoughts about why the fact that more than half of American voters voted for Trump doesn’t mean more than half of Americans are racist sexist homophobic transphobic idiotic bullies like Trump himself is, don’t read this yet.
Having said that, the below is what I have to believe in order to keep functioning and not despise half of the US voters including many friends and neighbors. I also happen to believe the below is somewhat factually accurate, although acknowledge that sometimes I will believe anything to survive (just like everyone else) and I’m not trying to bury my head in the sand. Also, these are just my thoughts and observations. There are probably a lot of people giving more thoughtful analysis on this, but alas. These are the conversations I’m having with my kids.
***
I talked to more Trump voters leading up to this election than in the past–including a number who did not vote for him in 2016 or 2020, but did this time. That someone wouldn’t vote for him until now is completely shocking to me, since his refusal to accept the results of the 2020 election & refusal to condemn the attack on the capitol are to me among his most disqualifying, treasonous acts and I thought surely would spell the end of his political viability. Nevertheless, there quite clearly is a crowd who voted for him for the first time this year and here is what I’ve learned about that.
(a) Many (maybe most) people who voted for Trump do not think he is a good person, are concerned about his authoritarian tendencies, and think he is mean. They did not vote for him because they like or approve of his character. They decided that it didn’t matter. I can dispute whether or not I think that’s a valid basis for judgment, but that is the reality. I disagree strongly that someone should vote for Trump despite all his flaws because they like his policy better–I think that’s a poor value choice, and not super logical because I don’t think Harris would have been able to radically shift policy especially given a Republican legislature. But, whatever I think of that weighing decision, I don’ t get to impute to Trump voters all of his flaws and beliefs and mean statements–that’s simply not fair or accurate.
(b) Many people who voted for Trump did so because, whether or not this is fair or rational, they feel they are worse off financially than they were four years ago. Again — is the economy really that worse? Maybe not. Is inflation Biden’s fault? Definitely not. Is Trump going to make things better? Probably not. But those are disagreements about cause, and effect, and policy. They don’t invalidate that this is truly how people feel, and a very significant motivator to how they voted. This was the biggest concern I had about Harris’s candidacy: that too many people feel economically worse off than they did before, and that she didn’t do enough to convince them she was the answer (I am not sure any other candidate could have, because they are largely voting out an administration, and she is still in that administration). As we heard in the 90’s, “It’s the economy, stupid.” Perceived or real it doesn’t matter because perception is reality.
(c) The business environment has been difficult the last four years. Much of that was not Biden’s fault, some of it is Trump’s fault, most of it is larger macroeconomic forces at play. But. Real talk. Regulatory agencies have, in my even left-leaning view, lost the plot. As part of my job I have noticed a substantial uptick in SEC, FCC, and FTC regulatory and enforcement activity to a point that I think they have lost sight of who they are trying to protect and are more interested in tallying up the number of prosecutions they initiate or deals they block or regulations they put out. Companies are spending too much money hiring outside counsel and putting compliance programs in place that I think will do next to nothing to actually protect any consumers, and that money is money they could be spending employing people to build things and serve customers. OK, I am showing my bias a little bit here, but it has been markedly changed in the last four years, and that is also going to impact how people vote. Because they want a change in regimes to make the business environment less difficult. Of course, there are many who argue that businesses just want to take advantage of people and we should regulate heavily, I get that, I’m just saying, that’s a legitimate policy disagreement with arguments on both sides that is fueling some of the support for a change in regime.
(I think this also suggests that the executive branch has gotten a wee bit too powerful and legislature-ish if an administration change makes SO MUCH difference to people. It’s not supposed to make that big a difference. If it does, again, our problems are bigger than Trump. But that’s an entirely separate topic about the role of the executive branch of government.)
(d) The cataclysmic fatalism on both sides is problematic. In and around the election I heard people on the left claim:
-Musk got involved because he is going to destroy the United States economy to move everything from the dollar to cryptocurrency (Heather Richardson Cox, who honestly I used to like but had to stop following because she was getting borderline “BlueAnon”, a term my kiddo told me about).
-You better enjoy your vote because this may be the last time you ever vote (Oprah)
-Trump will be president for forever now because he’ll never leave office (multiple sources).
-JD Vance wants to legalize slavery (Meg Conley, a writer I also used to enjoy but I felt got way, way extreme here–yes there is nuance to her argument, but this was the headline).
Etc.
Of course the right has their own cataclysmic conspiracy theory ridiculous story about socialism, kids getting gender reassignment at school, etc. etc. too, but I was talking to my leftist kiddo, so that wasn’t the point of the conversation.
Look – I do worry, tremendously, about the integrity of democratic institutions. I think it’s a real threat, and we should watch it, and not bury heads in the sand. But if our institutions are going to fall apart because of the election of one president, then the problems are way, way deeper that just Trump. We need to tone down the fearmongering, the conspiracy theories, and the fatalism. I just personally don’t think it’s productive or good for anyone’s mental health or relationships.
(e) My kids’ lives are not going to change that much in the next four years no matter who is in the office. The worst thing for them about things today is the obnoxious MAGA kids at school and the hateful speech and the culture wars. That wasn’t going to go away if Harris won. Again, my kids are white and privileged. I realize that for some people they may see a real threat to their livelihood. And I appreciate that my kids to care about those people. But my kids are legitimately scared for themselves, and I don’t think they need to do, or that it’s doing their mental health any favors.
Guess what impacts our day to day more than Trump being in office? Our city council and our school board. Who in my neighborhood or family can name a single city council member or school board member? Well, I can, but that’s because in 2016 I realized that stressing out too much over national politics — where my voice is very, very inconsequential and the impact to my actual day-to-day was also actually not that huge — was not healthy, and that focusing more locally where my voice is quite a bit more consequential and where the impacts are quite a bit more immediate was going to be better for my mental health and well being. And it has been. Again – that’s not a bury your head in the sand thing. But it is a being realistic about life & keeping things in perspective thing.
Even for things I care deeply about, like reproductive rights, guess what? Harris was probably not going to fix that. Don’t kid yourselves. We were not going to get a democrat supermajority in Congress and the Senate to create federal abortion rights. The SCOTUS is already a huge super conservative majority, so that ship has sailed and I don’t see this administration making a big difference to the Court’s composition. This is going to be a state issue for the foreseeable future, so if you want to change things, you’ve got to work at the state level (and donate to and work with organizations like Planned Parenthood, etc.). That would in all likelihood have been the case with a Harris win.
(f) As for the true believers, who love Trump, who love MAGA, the whole nine yards–well, I think that’s a full-on cult and reflective of a populist movement that, like other populist movements, is made up of people who feel disenfranchised by “the system”, who feel looked down upon by mainstream liberals and even mainstream conservatives, and who like to see someone say the quiet part out loud without regard for political correctness or any of the other petty grievances they have. Do I like this? No. Do I think it is super weird that these people love Trump because he is a rich privileged guy who does not give a damn about poor people? Yes. But is it a pattern that we see play out historically both in US history and, currently, in Europe? Yes. It is part of a larger historical and cultural picture. That doesn’t make it easier, but I think context matters. This is a moment in time. There have been and will be other moments in history. It hasn’t always been like this and I have hope that it won’t always be like this. The MAGA folks can be obnoxious, and loud, and my kid felt really upset about the MAGA hats he saw in school. But he saw two of them. Out of thousands of students. We need to put things into perspective.
***
Anyway. I’m not a political scientist or a pundit or trying to explain everything about an election. I’m sure there are a lot of articles explaining the vote and why who voted how. This is just my experience in observing my community this cycle. And in any event, right now I’m just a mom who is trying to comfort kids who truly felt like half of America must be awful people. Half of America is not awful people, and thinking that and treating people that way is doing us no favors.
Love your neighbor.

Thanks Elisa.
I agree with your (a) and (b). I did not experience (c) but I recognize that’s your position.
I’m trying very hard to calm down on your (d). I personally see Trump trying to undo the 22nd Amendment. I sincerely hope that’s just not possible.
I agree on your first (e) personally, while also holding space for immigrant families, non-traditional families, and other marginalized groups. Even if he never comes for them, the anxiety of worrying about “what if” is real. The damage is occurring in real time. I hope we can all see that and show support.
I also hope for your second (e). Right now, hope is all we have.
Well, I’m going to keep being liberal, keep criticizing Republican policies, keep calling out injustice when I see it, and keep trying to get Democrats elected. The onus is not on me or the Democrats to extend an olive branch. Have the Republicans ever thought to come around to the Democratic points of view? Don’t they routinely make caricatures out of the Democrats and call them names? Didn’t Trump call Democrats the enemy of the people? Hasn’t he talked about suspending press licenses over criticism of him? So no. I will not extend any sort of hand to cooperate or make peace with the Criminal-in-Chief and his conspiracy-wielding cultists inasmuch as they keep being such. I will fight against their lies and delusions as hard as I can. Now if they want to reconsider the lies and delusions and think of practicable solutions to complex problems, we can talk. Sure they’re not horrible people in every context. But politically they chose to damage the country. Don’t expect me to be kind when kindness isn’t what is deserved. Joe Biden was the best president of my lifetime. He stepped down because of age, but Harris would have carried out his policies. Voters rejected her because they were blinded by con-artists and liars. These are dark, dark days ahead.
Linkin Park’s song QWERTY is a perfect sonic and lyrical expression of how me and other Democrats feel at this point.
Broken down, a victim of your lies
You hide behind lies
You don’t know why
You crossed the line
Wrapped up inside your lies
I’ll leave it at that. I won’t read or engage other comments.
@chadwick, will fix the second (e) – thanks for pointing that out 🙂
Spot on post. I agree all the way to the last line.
I can’t speak for the other septuagenarians/octogenarians+ in this group, but when I read “This is a moment in time” I no longer have the luxury to assume I will live long enough to see things turn around again. And please do not underestimate the damage that will be done in these next four years. As Maya Angelou cautioned: “When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” How quickly we forget.
I agree with your general assessment that the actual effects of this (and every) presidential election on my day to day life are likely fairly small. For me there are a couple of caveats, legitimate worries that could affect people I care about.
The first one is my college student child who has a chronic medical condition treated by expensive pharmaceuticals. If the incoming Congress were to be so reckless as to once again attempt, as they did unsuccessfully in the previous Trump administration, to repeal the Affordable Care Act with no replacement on the table, and we were to suddenly go back to the pre-2010 system, my child would be 2 years away from being pushed off my insurance, uninsured and uninsurable. There would be some difficult financial decisions for our entire family that could come out of that. I thought we were done with this nonsense, but there was talk of it again during the campaign. I hope cooler heads prevail.
The second is the many Ukrainian friends I made on my mission. I worry Trump will sell them out. On the other hand, I’m reading that Zelensky was getting frustrated with the Biden administration and is already gearing up to flatter Trump to try to get what he wants out of him. He knows how to play the game, and there are more players in this than the US. I hope Europe steps up.
Here’s what keeps me up at night: Trump and the Rs will continue/increase support to Israel, further destabilizing the middle east. Trump will pull/reduce support for Ukraine, further destabilizing eastern Europe. Trump has already soured relationships with our allies in a variety of ways, and will certainly continue to do so. Trump’s tariffs will harm relationships with our allies and other major powers (China). All of these things will lead to further global destabilization, and will leave us in a vulnerable position in the event of a war. If a major war does break out, I think Trump will find almost any excuse to rush in to it. I believe that Trump desperately wants to be a war president. My sons will be approaching draft age before the next presidential election, and that terrifies me.
So Elisa: is this the Progressivism that we’re all supposed to embrace and be excited to be part of? I perceive that you’re saying just the opposite. However, the following (unfortunately) is not an isolated event…..and I think you know that.
U. of Oregon Places Administrator on Leave After Unhinged Rant Wishing Death on Trump Supporters
“I’m done crying. My sadness is over. My anger has set in. I am a very petty person, and I am very proud of that — love it about myself, actually,” Leonard Serrato said in a video posted to social media.
“And so, I say this in the most disrespectful way possible: I don’t care if you are my family, I don’t care if you are my friend, I don’t care if we have been friends our entire lives, you can literally go fuck yourself if you voted for Donald Trump,” Serrato continued.
“If you are so sad about your groceries being expensive, get a better fucking paying job, do better in life. Get a fucking education,” Serrato added. “Do something, because you are fucking stupid, and I hope you go jump off of a fucking bridge.”
Serrato has been advising the Fraternity and Sorority Life at the University of Oregon for the past six years, and is, ironically, passionate about “anti-hazing,” according to the school’s website.
Elisa, you might get some blowback for your blunt characterizations, but I think you are spot on.
There is a typo in your title. It should read, “The Other Half of America Is Not Lawful.”
Quentin: “I worry that Trump will sell [the Ukrainians] out.” He sells everyone out. Trump is a despicable man with no moral principles except self-aggrandizement and serial dishonesty (telling a good lie is one of his few life skills). It is an utter embarrassment that so many active LDS voted for him AGAIN, now that it is fully clear what his (lack of) character is. This is a real problem for the Church: about 20% of us are simply embarrassed to be associated with MAGA Mormons anymore.
Chadwick: “I’m trying very hard to calm down on your (d).” That’s what she said.
Charles: “I believe that Trump desperately wants to be a war president.” I disagree with this, and while it’s generally true that Rs love the glory of the bloodbath, Trump specifically made the campaign claim that he was going to get the US out of all wars. Whether or not he can keep his word remains to be seen. When he was in office the first time, he was the one who negotiated with the Taliban (!) to get us out of Afghanistan after two decades. His methods of keeping the US out of wars generally boil down to a combination of acting unstable and aggressive while making deals with autocratic, oppressive regimes.
Like Quentin, I worry most about Ukraine. If Trump’s deal ends up being handing Putin the Donbas region and Crimea, but letting Zelensky retain the rest, maybe that’s an outcome Eastern Europe can live with, for now. Maybe he can keep Putin from invading the Baltics to further his expanionist agenda. While it’s certainly been true that Putin has manipulated Trump in the past, enough people have pointed that out that Trump might just quit being his lapdog for the preservation of his own self-image. Zelensky, like Trump, is a former TV actor who knows how to play to a crowd and the cameras. Unlike Trump, his entire campaign was about eliminating corruption in a corrupt government (Trump’s is to exploit the corruptibility of our system, and he’s had unprecedented success at it).
I really appreciate this post Elisa. I wasn’t sure where you were headed with your title. It can be taken two ways, which is its appeal. Half the country isn’t awful because they didn’t vote for the rapist/fraudster. Or you could say even among his voters, many did it despite his criminality and not because they approve of it. It is true, at least, that his favorability rating was lower than Harris’.
Ezra Klein pointed out, astutely, that Biden spent so much time trying to get both sides of the Democratic party to work together, that he (and Dems) had themselves convinced that he was doing a good job, bridging the divide, etc. The people they didn’t convince were the public (much less the Republicans). So, within the party, he was being lauded as one of the best presidents evah, but to the public at large, he was seen by many as a failure. And there’s a storytelling problem that goes hand in hand with that, as well as a listening gap. These weren’t Kamala’s failings. I’m bummed that they probably won’t put her forward again in 4 years. I found her to be a truly exciting candidate, but I’m a sucker for articulate moderates.
I don’t believe that all voters for Trump are bad. In my little town, most people are Trump supporters, and they are good people who watch way too much Fox News. But they also seem to lack the ability to either think for themselves, or choose their own path, or change things they have been taught as a child in their families and at church. I will continue to be their friend and try to be kind as I explain views they may not have thought about. I’ll try not to get into arguments with most of them.
I agree what affects us most is local government. As a member of a city council, it’s the water and sewer bill,or the building permits that both keep the city going and shape the character of the city. What happens in Washington DC is pretty far removed. But as the BOM says, when the wicked rule, the people mourn. It bothers me that so many felt a convicted felon and a man fighting so many charges, but because he’s rich and can delay proceedings, was a better choice than a black woman prosecutor. I don’t believe Trump is a good person. His persona is going to hurt our country, which you can already see if you’ve looked at Facebook the past few days and seen the comments of some of the supporters of Trump.
As I talked to my kids, we know we are privileged, but my daughter, her wife, and two sons are vulnerable to the hate and judgment that has both been allowed and seems to be encouraged by those on the right. So I have a pit in my stomach for them, and for some of the students my wife teaches who are LGBTQ+. My daughter lives in a very gay-friendly neighborhood (gayborhood) in SLC, yet yesterday, the day after the election, her neighbor took down her Trump sign, which only my daughter could see, and replaced it with a sign that said, “Pride precedes the destruction” with a quote from Proverbs that only my daughter and her family can see. It’s posted, so it is higher than the six-foot wood fence that separates their backyards.
Finally, I think the most egregious aspect of this election is the misuse and misunderstanding of money. I heard 16 billion dollars went into the election. I bought a lot of airtime that promoted lies and misinformation. Musk and his million-dollar-a-day giveaway/lottery. The SuperPACs that are unregulated which give the rich access to the media to speed their propaganda. Virtually all of it is from the right and affects blinding people. Sure, there was money spent by Democrats but it was the individuals on the democratic side donating 50-100 at a time instead of billionaires. Then there was all the talk about inflation by the media about inflation without ever saying what it was. I don’t think the average person has a clue what inflation is, what causes it, how taxes hurt or help or how prices are set by companies.
I know transgender people personally that never travel and have gone to the trouble to get a visa for fear Trump would win this election. Those people are now looking into moving to Canada. I know several other families in red states who are looking for jobs in blue states, where they hope their rights will be respected. Even if Trump takes no action against them in the future, he has done so much damage by riling up the electorate against them that life feels really scary for them right now. They feel like they are in Germany and Hitler has just come to power.
If Trump took down Obamacare that would really impact my family negatively in every way. I don’t think he will. He didn’t last time he was in, after threatening it. But he could. There is nothing in his way if he wants that.
It’s hard to say what he will do. He has a huge list of threats. Hopefully he doesn’t have the energy to get to much of it.
You may not believe me about transgender people. However, it may be you are surrounded by them and their families and every last one is lying to you to protect the transgender person.
Americans voted against Trump in 2020 when given a choice that campaigned on a more centrist, or left of center, platform. Had they been given a similar choice in 2024, Trump likely would have lost again. I will not blame the voters, as many are doing here at W&T, and I will not castigate women voters as is happening on a sister thread. Is it not possible that the candidates and their campaigns, and the parties, made the choices that led to voters voting for Trump? Lots of news people are analyzing this election, and what I am reading is that most of these experts are blaming the candidate’s and the party’s choices for the election loss. They are not putting hateful labels and epithets on the voters. They are saying that the Democrats lost the election because of their own actions, actions which caused voters to go to Trump. One can, of course, disagree with any particular analysis.
I wonder if, in the greater LDS community, speaking ill of our leaders is so deeply baked in that we must find fault with voters, instead of with the leaders. This brings to my mind the recent thread about pharasaism, pointing the finger at people and finding fault with them when they do differently than expected.
We could have had a different winner, had the voters been given a more moderate alternative to Trump. They were given a choice and they made one. I can’t blame the voters, nor will I call them racist or sexist or anything else. They chose from what was presented to them. One can believe that it was a bad choice, but maybe the fault lies with those who created the choice. A lot of political pundits are looking at where the mistakes were made. Most Americans are lawful and they are not awful.
Thanks for this post Elisa. I agree with your characterization of Trump as “incredibly dangerous and authoritarian and a threat to democracy, not a good leader, does not have good policy ideas, and mean and a bully.” I’m very sad that he won.
I also agree that those labels do not apply to everyone who voted for him. If you want to not hate people from the other political party, a great book to read is: “The Righteous Mind” by Jonathan Haidt. It does a good job of pointing out that neither side is morally bankrupt and trying to destroy our country. Each side just has different values, and the implementation of those values looks different. If you want to have a productive conversation with someone who votes differently than you do, a good place to start is by understanding and acknowledging the values that they do have, rather than pointing out where they fall short of the values that are most important to you. If you can’t see or acknowledge that the other side has values, then you are contributing to the division in this country (and if you want to help this country heal, and be less divided, then you have some work to do).
I also agree that these 4 years will pass and it probably won’t be the downfall of democracy and the collapse of our civilization. Worrying about that day to day does nothing to make my life better.
One more thing. Why can’t we blame the voters? Don’t Republicans and Trump supporters blame liberals and Democratic voters ad nauseum? Democrats have to be held to a higher standard? Trump can heap every insult on liberals and yet it is the utmost offense and incivility for Hillary to call them deplorable. She was right by the way. Let’s be honest. A lot of Trump supporters are delusional, angry, conspiracy-minded, and even violent people. Large groups of people and toxic cultures can be to blame. The reelection of Trump is a scathing indictment of the state of the American people, a good portion of whom have lost their minds and are driving a massive problem of misinformation. I blame the Trumpist culture full on. They’re toxic horrible people. Other people who voted for Trump may be better, but I blame them for being misinformed, bothsidesism, downplaying the evil of Trump, and not understanding how good Biden was and how Harris was clearly the better choice. The Democrats did about everything they could to reach people. At the end of the day, Trump did win an election fair and square. The people are to blame to a large extent.
Georgis: JFC, how much more moderate of a candidate do you want the Dems to put forward?? You’ve got Liz Cheney, former members of Trump’s cabinet and administration, and Republicans all over the country endorsing Harris! You’ve got Harris, a former prosecutor, joking about how she has a Glock and is prepared to use it, who says she will put a Republican in her cabinet. How much more moderate do you expect? Actual Mitt Romney?? Get real. People didn’t want moderate. They wanted anti-establishment.
Just over 50% of voters were mad at Biden, and Trump’s false stories about the economy (the reasons) were the only ones being offered. I do blame the Democratic party, but not for being insufficiently moderate. What a bizarre complaint given the facts of the case. The real problem, IMO, is that while the US economy rebounded better than every other country after the pandemic, no thanks to Trump who left the mess behind, nobody explained (as Obama did while cleaning up for Bush) what caused it and what it would take to fix it, what would be required of us all. And frankly, that’s what politicians and parties are supposed to do: make sense of complex things. They didn’t. Trump also hasn’t made actual sense of it. He’s just trotted out familiar scapegoats and a mix of disastrous and common sense policy ideas. We’ve made our bed. Now we get to see how far he’s willing to go. I’m sure he will do some good things and some bad things. I hope we can avoid most of the disastrous things he’s promised, but that just enough of them get through to ensure Republicans are ousted from congress in 2 years, and from the White House in 4.
Elisa: I meant to revisit your points, so here goes:
1) Me too, and I also don’t want to downplay the dangers he poses. My adult kids have literally only experienced their political life in Trump’s America, and he’s never not been on the ballot. They feel pretty hopeless.
2) My daughter & non-binary kid certainly have more anxiety, although one bright spot is just how close AZ was. There are plenty of extremists here, too, but Trump wasn’t the overwhelming choice. It was the state with the narrowest margin of victory, at least so far. That’s something. If they hadn’t already given up on the church, this would have done it.
a) I would actually be interested to see what % of church members fall into each camp: full on Trump cult (he’s the savior of mankind), he’s competent but flawed, he’s terrible but I agree with his policies, etc. I would bet most of them fall into the last group, which is kind of the “at least he’s not a Democrat” group. Yeah, we get it. If you’re not a Republican, this is not the church for you. Believe me, we didn’t miss the memo.
b) Completely agree with this take.
c) Honestly, I don’t disagree with this either. There are some good ideas from the Trump playbook, and while I imagine they will go too far in burning it all down, there are definitely some regulatory arms of the government that do go too far. Additionally, (forgive me if I’m wrongly attributing this) I believe that RFK Jr proposes really going after all the preservatives in our food, which is definitely a problem, although it will increase regulation. Please, include taking on corn syrup! The quote I heard was that Froot Loops have three ingredients in other countries (I have to assume that’s Fruit, Loops, and not sure what the third thing is), but 21 ingredients in the US. Now maybe that’s a legit criticism of Froot Loops or maybe it’s just some technicality. But still, I can authoritatively state that our foods in the US are not as healthy as they are in other countries, and lunch meat should not last WEEKS in your fridge in the US but only DAYS in Singapore. Talk about things that don’t pass the sniff test. I wouldn’t trade women’s reproductive freedom or trans rights for it, but some things do need a good shakeup.
d) Wow, these leftie conspiracies had me laughing. I hadn’t heard some of them. The “last time you ever vote” is a direct Trump quote, although who knows what he means. He can’t run again unless they change the constitution, and he’s frankly too old and in serious decline. I don’t know he last 4 years, but at some point, he might finally just say it’s time to golf. Oh wait, he’ll do that while he’s in office.
e) I am a little less sure on this, except for the fact that AZ has a Democratic governor for the next two years at least, so we shall see. For now, my kids who are most likely impacted are at least protected in our state, and they are still finishing college, so we’ll see what happens next.
f) There are way too many of these people. I keep seeing these giant trucks with multiple Trump flags aggressively driving all around this area, but like your kid’s school, it’s probably just 1-2 out of every 100 cars or even less. Our neighbor with the Trump sign kept it up. My Harris sign was stolen, and I replaced it Sunday, but I have now taken it down because I want to have it, and some MAGA delinquent will probably steal it if I leave it up.
Elisa,
Thankyou. I didn’t vote for Trump–but as a rather staunch social conservative (and softer political conservative) I think you did an excellent job “steelmanning” my side of the argument. Though, truth be told, your post is better than a steelman argument. It’s a sincere delivery of deeply rooted wisdom.
Thanks again.
Thanks for sharing thoughts. I appreciate hearing some of the things people are worried about — part of my concern about the overblown conspiracy theories is that they detract from actual concerns, some of which have been expressed here (i.e., Ukraine, trans kids, etc.).
And in case is it not clear from the post (I hope it is), I completely understand why immigrants, trans folks, etc. do have reason to be scared, and I care about them, and my kid cares about them. But that’s why I tried to be super clear I was talking about my kids fear for his own safety. Not other people’s.
@Angela, I didn’t intend the double meaning. Then after I posted, I realized that my original title “Half of America is Not Awful” would probably read as though I was saying “the half that voted for Harris isn’t awful.” So then I changed to “the other half” to try to clarify I’m talking about the side that didn’t vote for your person … but some ambiguity remains.
Also I need to listen to whatever Ezra Klein podcast you listened to. I like Klein and his guests takes a lot. And yes, I am honestly kind of surprised to see comments about Biden being the best president. All I hear are people who think he’s been awful. I don’t agree with those people, but clearly, there’s massive disconnect here.
I’ll be sad if they don’t run Harris again. I thought she was a good candidate. I was so worried when she became the candidate that it would be painful to see a woman get so much hatred thrown at her, but she was quite masterful at deflecting it. I thought she excoriated him in the debate and it was legitimately fun to watch to see that happen. So I’m bummed she lost, but feel happy to have been able to see her make the attempt.
@Brad D — I guess you said you won’t read other comments, so I guess I don’t need to bother, but for the record I hear you on many concerns. I guess I am just not sure where spending energy being mad at people who voted for Trump will get you. I am choosing not to get emotionally wrapped up and instead to preserve my energy supporting things I care about in areas I can have an impact, and trying to help my kids not to be emotionally entangled in it either. I recognize that it is my privilege that allows me to choose not to get emotionally involved, but I think I can bring my best self to help the people and things I care about if I make that choice to preserve my energy and mental health. Again, not criticizing your approach or reaction just explaining that I’m coming at this with a different intent.
@lws, I hear you and I understand that people are scared. However, I think that’s part of the issue with cataclysmic thinking. Do people really need to move from red states to blue states? I mean, maybe. I can see that for some people who truly feel threatened in their states. I’m not disputing that may be true for some people, or that they would be happier in a state that was more supportive and where they felt comfortable. But I think a lot of people who say they are going to move are not under any real threat, and the fear mongering is causing a lot of panic.
@Georgis, I’m with Angela. I don’t think any Democrat could have won. Too many people were voting against an administration, not “for” a candidate. That said, that’s not really the point of my post and smarter people than me are probably writing about that.
@LHCA, I agree it is sad to think you won’t live to see change. That’s largely why I’m mostly disengaged with the Church. Not interested in an institution that will never align with my values in my lifetime. I’m sorry. My kids are young, and this is the only world they know, so I think it’s important for them to believe that things actually could be different during their lifetimes. Otherwise, dang, that’s too discouraging, and why even bother fighting in that case? Hopefully you lived through more positive political environments in your lifetime — environments my kids have never seen.
@Instereo, yes, yes, and yes on the money in the election. That’s a whole other issue that I think is wildly problematic. Be mad at Elon & Trump, not your neighbor. I don’t have much hope of campaign finance laws changing though since why would the people in power change them? They benefit from them. Just like they will never pass term limits.
republicans decided to have an “America First” campaign, and that woke up a lot of voters to decide which party was going to better represent the interest of America
@jkenttt, literally no idea what you mean, but if your intent was to foster goodwill from people who voted for Harris towards people who voted for Trump, comments like that are *not* how to do it.
I had to wait to reply because it took me all day to get out of the category of people who should wait to read this post because we were just too hurt and angry.
I have LGTB kids, and they are afraid. They are afraid their marriage will be canceled. My trans loved one is afraid for her life. But it won’t make much difference in your daily life.
I am afraid for the world because Trump will abandon Ukraine and support Israel’s genocide. But it won’t make much difference in your daily life.
The hate has already ramped up with rape threats sent to women and threats of a return to slavery sent to blacks, and signs going up stating that women are property. As a sexual abuse survivor, I really feel abandoned that my country wants a known rapist as president. But nothing much will change in your daily life, if you are a white male.
And no one yet has mentioned that he will increase oil and gas and coal production and slow down the switch to sustainable energy. After all you can’t make a huge profit off other countries by selling sunshine and wind. Global warming will increase, bringing more wild fires, more hurricanes, more floods, all killing more people. It got hot this summer. And it will get hotter. People are dying from the heat. But nothing much will change in your daily life, unless you are in a flood zone, a fire prone area, hurricane area, tornado area, or have home insurance.
tRump is going to put tariffs on things coming into our country, increasing the price of everything. You think inflation was bad after the pandemic, just wait till avocados are $20 each and one egg is a dollar. But nothing much will change in your daily life.
The Repugnicans will pass a national abortion ban, more people will die. Women are already joining a group to swear off having any kind of relationship with men, no more sex guys, sorry ‘bout that. The birth rate will drop because pregnancy is too dangerous with the lack of medical care and women become too afraid to get pregnant when it is a two hour drive to the nearest hospital that will deliver babies, like it is now in places in my state because the Obgyn docs are all moving out of state. But nothing much will change in your daily life.
Project 25 is what the Republicans are planning and one of their big things is to do away with Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security. But nothing much will change in your daily life, except Grandma will come to live with you because they take away her medical care and her income.
You know, I always thought Biden’s biggest problem is that he is too damn nice for today’s tRump world. Nice guys finish last. Yup.
My granddaughter just dumped her first serious boy friend because she found out in one sentence out of his mouth that he makes homophobic jokes and voted for Trump. She has it right. If you are too delusional to see that tRump will make the rich richer and the poor poorer, then I don’t want to be your friend because I can’t reason with delusional. And if you really approve of tRump’s racism or the right’s homophobia then I don’t want to be your friend and you are not welcome in my home. So, if you voted for tRump, I will be distantly polite because I am a nice polite kind of person. But no, I will not be your friend and I will not respect you or try to understand your reasons for being an idiot.
My husband spent the day looking for homes in the very bluest state. I don’t know that we can afford to live there, but I am less likely to have nasty Trumpers next door.
I am tired of being sweet and forgiving of people who are too lazy/stupid/delusional/bigoted/racist/sexist/what ever reason you voted for the conman&rapist. And I no longer care what your particular reason is, because you sold my country down the river. Right now, I don’t even want to be nice to the nice people who want to be nice to tRump voters.
For those of you concerned about the 22nd amendment, there is a theory floating around out there that it will not require a constitutional amendment for Trump to legally serve a third term. It is based on the textual argument that the 22nd states a president can only be elected for two terms, leaving open the possibility that he could be appointed for a third term. I know all the variables that would have to fall into place for this to be a possibility are remote, and I haven’t even thought about it enough yet to identify all of them, but still, after all that has happened since 2016 I cannot honestly say this doesn’t scare the sh*t out of me.
Elisa, I applaud your effort here, and I appreciate your caveats and your recognition of privilege and its role in your perspective in general and with your kids. Perhaps this is an indication that I didn’t take some of your caveats to heart, but even after reading your post I am unmoved from where I was before I read it – there is no hope to make any significant change on a national scale when over half the voting population is so utterly stupid, or some form of stupid, like heartless, or selfish, or gullible. Never again will I not laugh out loud when I hear someone talk about how we, as an American people, are fundamentally good. By the numbers, we are not. We are stupid. There is no other way of explaining this because all avenues of explanation end up somewhere that can be objectively characterized as stupid.
Thank you Anna for injecting some reality into the conversation. I have been so upset I couldn’t write that much.
I live in a maga area. When the pandemic hit all my friends were maga. I was a hold out that voted libertarian to avoid voting for a man who made fun of a reporter with a speech defect.
But we were terrified of the pandemic because of my son who has been admitted to the hospital with pneumonia repeatedly. I reevaluated my politics and my friends dropped away one by one. I became one of those messed up liberals.
At first my Republican best friend in California hung in there. (Met her in highschool, she joined the church in my home).Then we both had loved ones who came out as transgender. I studied up on this and became supportive. She hid it from everyone, pretended to be loving to her relative, and totally freaked out being angry at all liberals and medical personnel for supporting transitions.
Soon, we couldn’t even talk without attacking each other, or just feeling hurt at anything the other one said. We don’t talk anymore.
Do I think she is a bad person? Not exactly… but I think she could have responded to her test in a more Christ like way. Interestingly she thinks the same thing of me. Turns out we have different ideas of what’s Christ like.
All the maga people in my ward and community are just good regular kind people. But their ideas are broken and made dangerous by the constant misinformation of our times. Interestingly, they probably think the same thing about me.
The church hasn’t done much to attempt to help or solve these situations. I know it’s hard but I think they could do better.
I have tried to pray for God to protect our country, but God answers me that that was the voters job, and They would never stand in the way of us doing what we really want, no matter how misguided.
And yeah, Anna is right. I can no longer tolerate the kinds of people that vote for Trump, in an up close way. I try to be the leaven or salt in the lump and improve things in general by spreading what I know.
However, such acquaintances aren’t sustainable for my benefit and right now I can’t imagine it will be the same for me. Can I tolerate these surface interactions. Should I bother? Honestly, they aren’t horrible like Trump. Just stupid and thoughtless about the actual effects of their actions.
I have made new friends through FB and I will drive an hour to meet an At Last She Said It sister, or one or my Mormon Women for Ethical Government friends.
Anna, another double thumbs up for your comment. If by the bluest state you mean California, don’t be so sure you won’t end up around trumpistas. My county went 60%+ for him. In the more affordable parts of CA (not the coast) they are everywhere.
@anna, I hear you. Really I do. And thank you for sharing.
I will say what I said to Brad D tho which is: I am just not sure where spending energy being mad at people who voted for Trump will get you. I am choosing not to get emotionally wrapped up and instead to preserve my energy supporting things I care about in areas I can have an impact, and trying to help my kids not to be emotionally entangled in it either. I recognize that it is my privilege that allows me to choose not to get emotionally involved, but I think I can bring my best self to help the people and things I care about if I make that choice to preserve my energy and mental health.
I don’t think most of the policy issues you mention including a national abortion ban will ever actually happen. I certainly will expend time and energy and resources to try to prevent that. What else could I do? I think it is likely – as happens frequently – that the midterm elections swing Democrat.
@dougipoo, maybe you’re right, but if women’s suffragists and abolitionists gave up because they concluded America was too stupid or evil, where would we be now? I would like my kids to have hope. Not to disengage out of despair.
I think my responses to these comments reveal that I am fundamentally pragmatic and oriented around trying to fix problems once they are identified rather than thinking about them for too long. That is my nature and part of who I am and my value system. That’s different from some people and not better or worse, just different.
I’m not trying to convince anybody of anything here. Just sharing how I am approaching the outcome with my kids.
Elisa, The implication that I am disengaging out of despair could not be more accurate. You’re right, we all have different ways of coping. Good luck trying to find the brighter side of stupidity. I sincerely hope you are successful.
@dougipoo, was not implying that about you. Was saying what I was trying to accomplish *with my children who were scared to go to school on Wednesday.*.
I know I set myself up for this, but folks are not taking my first two caveats seriously and focusing on just portions of my post and comments out of their larger context. That’s ok. This isn’t about me. But I still think important to clarify if you want to actually understand what I’m saying and engage with those ideas.
last comment on that group of comments – I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to imply that I do not care about the people who are more directly impacted by the election than I am. That may be fair for someone who *voted* for Trump because his policies benefitted them and hurt others. I didn’t vote for Trump *because* of many of the impacts Anna and others describe in the comments. Despite that I don’t think it’ll impact me much personally and that I may be better off financially under a Republican administration – I did not vote for him.
I just think there’s a world of difference between voting for Trump on the one end and trying not to hate everybody who voted for Trump while also trying to mitigate the impacts of a Trump administration on the other.
yeah, 99% of the time I have agreed with you Elisa. seriously, I don’t think there is anyone here I usually agree with quite as much.
BUT, and it is a big “but” this time I am angry at my fellow continent dwellers. I can’t call them Americans because they voted to essentially destroy much of what America has always stood for. “Liberty and justice for all” went out the window. All the way out the window into the garbage heap and we are adopting a new slogan called “revenge of the imbecile”.
So, you conserve your energy and I will use my anger to energize my resolve to fight this unAmerican CRAP.
tRump did enough damage his first term and then he had people around him to try to stop some of his worst ideas. His disastrous first term he did damage to environmental regulations and clean energy and actually the Repugnicans cheated (remember that???) by refusing to consider Obama’s SCOTUS pick when they were required by law to do so. So, now the SCOTUS is a partisan puppet of the Repugnant Party. I just seriously cannot believe he will accomplish nothing this term. All of his plans are harmful, either to humans or our environment. He plans on putting an anti vaxer in charge of our health department. Idaho where I vote has made the Covid vaccine illegal. Can you imagin? A vaccine that saves lives is illegal because of stupidity.
It *can* happen here. That was what the old Germany tried so hard to get Americans to understand when I live in Berlin before the wall came down. It was people *exactly* like tRump voters who voted Hitler in. They were trying to say they were sorry, but also “don’t think you are above it happening in your country.” They were good people who let a mad man take over because their economy was not working.
I hear what you are saying because I used to be right there with you. Love should win. We should try to understand our misguided friends. But sometimes it just doesn’t work like that and you have to stop giving people second chances. Sometimes you have to hide Jews in your attic or hide a transgender woman in your basement. Sometimes you join the resistance and stop trying to work with the delusional.
So many good thoughts here Elisa. It was the economy and the perception of the economy that led to a Trump victory in my view, so I think you nailed it. I’m not saying anything new here, but the American people experience prices, not inflation. So saying (correctly) that inflation is now back to normal levels, felt like gaslighting to so many becuase what they actually expected was for prices to go back to pre-pandemic times, which wouldn’t happen unless we get a depression or (heaven forbid) another pandemic.
Also, when people got raises due to a hot labor market or inflation, that was interpreted as “something I earned”, while inflation is always “something that happened to me.” John Burn-Murdoch of the Financial Times had a great column out yesterday where he charted the wave of anti-incumbency election results across the globe among all established democracies. There is a vote-the-current-party-in-power out movement that is sweeping the globe. Harris/Walz did better than any other incumbent administration, so that is something I think she should be proud of. The macro environment was stacked against her as people blamed the current admin for Covid-related inflation and its aftermath.
The only thing I disagree with you on is (c). Crypto is mostly a scam and its predominant use case is to launder illicit/illegal activity. I very much welcome 3-letter orgs protecting the financially illiterate from getting wrapped up in this. There might be a legitimate use case for storing and transferring money abroad if one is living in an unstable country where one’s currency is at risk of being devalued or stolen. But the overwhelming evidence is that crypto is mainly for fraudsters, grifters, and would-be Ponzi operatives. Also, Lina Khan is the G.O.A.T. Not saying that all her actions have been right, but most have. Biden said it well, capitalism without competition is exploitation. US has tended toward stultifying monopolies and consolidation with less and less overall competition. The current FTC and their actions to protect consumers was a breath of fresh air. The Biden admin’s push to improve govt. efficiency and to get companies to abandon or disclose all fees (e.g., junk fees) upfront at point-of-purchase or to make it as easy to cancel a subscription as it is to join one was wonderful. I used to run a 150 person call center and we had a dedicated team that was specifically designed to put “friction” in place to avoid allowing customers from cancelling. My overwhelming view of the regulatory apparatus of the Biden admin and what Harris would have continued is that it was pro-competition, pro-consumer action much more than it was regulatory morass.
@anna I totally get that, appreciate your comments, and don’t need you to “agree with” or “approve of” me.
I do wonder what is fundamentally different from what we are trying to do. Sign me up for the resistance. I’m not trying to extend an olive branch to anybody tbh. I’m trying ultimately beat them politically and socially without being in despair. I am not interested in actually talking to Trump voters about why they voted for Trump and frankly don’t engage much on that once I got a simple understanding of it.
I am just trying to be able to function and able to engage in my own community in my day to day without shutting down because everybody around me voted to Trump. During Covid I literally just couldn’t be around my anti-masker anti-vaxxer neighbors on any level. But I can’t live like that. Doesn’t mean I am going to talk to them about masks and vaccines – not interested in their perspective or compromising with them bc they live in a different reality. But happy to talk to them about other things. It was hard to get to that point for me but had been important to split out a person from an issue like that in order to be in a community without being mad all the time.
In modern US politics, people don’t vote for a candidate so much as they vote against the candidate they don’t want. There’s a major distinction.
Going to a wedding and choosing to eat the terrible chicken because the only other option is terrible fish doesn’t mean the chicken is any good.
In the current US election system we only get to pick between terrible chicken and terrible fish, even when almost everyone would be happier with a mediocre take-out pizza.
If you want some positivity and hope, go visit David Byrne’s solutions-based news site “Reasons to Be Cheerful.” They hire serious journalists to write quality pieces about people finding practical solutions to the problems we face as a society/world. They just wrote a whole piece titled “No matter who wins, _____________,” where readers could reply with how they’d continue to try making the world a better place regardless of who won the election. You’ll agree with some of them, you’ll disagree with some of them…but that’s fine. They sum their position with this excerpt from the article, “We believe the collective impact of practical problem-solving is greater than any one person’s power…Together, our actions add up to an overwhelming force that helps the world flourish.”
@jacob not to go down a rabbit hole but agree on crypto and much of what you said. I’m really talking about B2B ftc interference (why are they going hog wild protecting businesses from other businesses they are contracted with – as opposed to consumers) and the SEC micromanaging things like cyber that it fundamentally doesn’t understand.
I’m not a deregulation person. Just that it’s gotten out of hands in some areas.
Hmmmmm……Elisa: it appears that you’re actively blocking posts which have any semblence of a differing point of view. So, this really isn’t a discussion; is it? This post is akin to a safe corner with kittens to pet, legos to play with and cookies and milk.
Disappointing….but, not necessarily Surprising.
Is this the Progressivism we’re all supposed to be embracing?
“Leonard Serrato, assistant director of fraternity and sorority life at the University of Oregon, posted the unhinged rant against Trump supporters posted to Instagram following Tuesday’s election.
”I say this in the most disrespectful way possible. I don’t care if you are my family, I don’t care if you’re my friend. I don’t care if we’ve been friends our entire lives, you can literally go f–k yourself if you voted for Donald Trump. If you are so sad about your groceries being expensive, get a better f–king paying job. Do better in life, get a f–king education,” Serrato said in the video. “Do something because you’re f–king stupid, and I hope you go jump off of a f–king bridge.”
Pretty disgusting really.
@lefthandloafer, your comments are being blocked automatically because they contain language that our filters block automatically. I have nothing to do with it and your views have nothing to do with it. You’ve jumped to a silly conclusion.
@lefthandloafer, now that you’ve seen why your comments were blocked originally, you’re welcome to retract your earlier accusations of censorship.
I have no idea the point of your comment, though, now that it’s been edited for language and posted. I am saying literally the opposite of sentiments like Serrato’s, and literally no commenter – even those who disagreed with me – has suggested as much.
You just seem to be taking an opportunity to take shots at something you’re mad about and “progressivism” that neither I nor any commenter had done, suggested, or advocated. So not really relevant to this discussion.
@loafer if the game we’re playing is “find the person on the other team who said the most horrible thing about the folks on my team” then you’re going to lose.
@Pirate and many others who have expressed a similar sentiment – was Harris the chicken or the fish, and why? The only legitimate criticisms I’ve heard of her is that she was too far to the right. She continued to support Israel and made no indication of tackling gun violence. She was a tough-on-crime prosecutor early in her career, and I know of lot of lefty folks who didn’t like that. But I don’t understand why the more moderate folks don’t like her. It’s pretty wild to call Harris (or Biden) left of center as both are right of what most folks on this green earth (or at least in ‘the west’) would consider center.
Yes, I stand corrected. My apologies, Elisa. I never did try to post the actual language Serrato – but apparently the filters still didn’t like it. But, my bad – non the less.
I suppose I feel compelled to say that either “there’s mutual respect going both directions – or there will never be mutual respect”. It’s nothing but a pipe-dream.
Again, my apologies for my misjudgement.
Where did the liberal LDS on this blog who have pleaded with all LDS to just be kind to everyone? I have NEVER heard such vile rhetoric toward 73 million voters, including over a million LDS, in my entire life.
Also, can anyone tell me where 10 million Biden voters went? If only a few more of his 81 million voters had voted for Harris, she would have won, without a single Republican defector. Maybe the BIG LIE is not actually a lie. It’s hard to disappear 10 million Democrats.
Thanks Laura. Nothing like admitting you are deaf to the vile rhetoric on the political right and reframing a disproven conspiracy theory to make everyone feel better.
For the record, my wife and I have decided to volunteer more in our community. The world may look like its falling apart and Trump 2 hardly inspires confidence, but we all should do something positive.
Laura, If you can’t figure out the patently obvious reasons for the difference in those numbers using basic arithmetic in the context of how elections work, then there’s nothing anyone can tell you that will help. You also might want to study up on a thing call Occam’s Razor.
Also, as Elisa is exemplifying, people with integrity accept reality when they lose an election, and then they move on and make the best of it. You, apparently, are not even able to do that when you win.
It is so shocking that a majority of Americans—especially evangelicals and Mormons would elect such a person like Trump. The things he’s said and done publically is horrible. All I can figure is their media sources didn’t report such behavior(?)
One thing that scares me—is RFK in charge of the FDA—if that happens.
The FDA oversees the safety and efficacy of our food and drugs.
And what about other departments in our govt.—who will Trump put in those positions?
And, it’s not like the Republican Party couldn’t have selected someone else to represent them—that would support their views on issues.
Nope.
Instead,they chose to follow the man to the sewer.
dougipoo, in an article published yesterday, updated today, in Newsweek, they say the millions fewer Democrat voters is unprecedented, and the explanation is that these millions of voters stayed home, or voted for a third candidate. They blame misogyny (Democrats?) and Biden/Harris supporting Israel.
I don’t understand the Israel support, because the Muslim populated areas (Dearborn) of Michigan switched from Dem to Rep, with only a few third-party votes. The Muslims gave Trump the Michigan electoral votes. Yes, they voted for pro-Israel Trump, so they must be the misogynists. Lucky Trump.
Laura you’re way off topic. Get back on topic or find another forum for your talking points.
The New Republic has an article about how Trump became the choice of so many for POTUS.
Bottom line.
The media—like Fox Network etc.
Many years ago Americans got their news from professional journalists like Walter Cronkite. So we were all dealing with the same set of reliable facts.
Not any more.
The factions in society live in different
information silos.
What sources of info we use are very important!
Laura: “It’s hard to disappear 10 million Democrats.” No, it’s not hard at all. People don’t turn up to vote all the time. We live in a country where voting is not compulsory. Not voting IS their vote, and yes, it’s a vote of no confidence in the Democratic party.
As to calls for civility, give me a break. Trump voters just put a rapist in office who moved women’s reproductive rights back over 50 years, not because he cared one damn about it (he was always pro-choice before MAGA), but because his voters transacted it with him. He gave up women to get votes. The art of the deal. I also don’t think this blog is really the place where “liberal LDS” were pleading for people to “just be kind.” He also mocked a disabled reporter, and from what I am hearing in conservative spaces, it’s now, once again, totally OK to use the R slur and to say something is “gay” as a derogatory. Hate speech against trans people, which hadn’t yet gone out of style, is out in full force. Calling bigots bigots feels like fair game, as does pointing out hate speech.
I actually read a Twitter thread where a school teacher in Utah was concerned that students were bullying others, using these same tactics and slurs, and when called out by the teacher, the teacher was told that it’s OK now because the President does it. And you can bet your bottom dollar that they are hearing it from their parents at home. No sooner had this teacher lamented the state of bullying in his school when immediately some Trump supporters started in the replies, excoriating the teacher for thinking he’s better than the parents and telling him to butt out, that it’s their family values. Really? This is how it’s going to be now? Bullying is now going to be condoned as protected speech? Great.
Example:
”The hosts of Fox News’ “The Five” on Thursday talked about capital punishment for the prosecutors in the criminal cases against now-President-elect Donald Trump.”
@Lois, agree. Part of what it nigh unto impossible to have a conversation with a Trump supporter that isn’t so frustrating I want to stab my eyes out is because we literally live in alternate realities. We don’t consume the same sources of information.
It is one thing to engage in a discussion of values, as has been pointed out. But one cannot get very far, even after an understanding of values, when we can’t agree on facts.
Laura, whose side is most hateful? The one who stormed the capital threatening to hang the Vice President when they lost an election, or us people who are scared our medical care will be taken away, our marriages invalidated, our transgender kids beaten or killed, our income that we paid into all our lives for SS will just be taken away and we will be left destitute, our granddaughters might bleed out because it is against the law to treat a miscarriage? Who really is the bad guy here? People who are scared for their lives or livelihood compared to disgruntled bullies who wanted revenge for a Vice President upholding the Constitution of the US. Trump has called our current Vice President every vile name in the book and you are upset that we are calling tRump voters “stupid?” Well, if the shoe fits wear it. Or would you rather I called you a whore who slept her way onto this blog? That is what tRump has repeatedly said about the current Vice President. You obviously have a very double standard that your side gets to call everybody names and get no criticism for it, while screaming “unfair” if you are called any kind of bad name. Hypocrite. So, like tRump, you can dish it out but it is so horrible of the other side to be angry about all the names you have been calling them. Go look in the mirror. Like I said, I am tired of being nice and getting kicked for it. Your side keeps saying the left has to uphold all these values of kindness and respect, but refuse to give any kindness or respect. You keep saying that we need to understand you and your pain, but you refuse to do the same. There is the idea called the golden rule. When you figure it out, comeback and talk to us. The only “kindness” you get till then is the honest unvarnished truth.
People are free to interact how they want, but Laura is off-topic, so I wouldn’t worry about responding to their comments.
The OP has nothing to do with which side says the worst stuff. (I mean, of course, I think it’s the Trumpers ……… but really, not the point of the post.)
How can people ignore the obvious?
Bush v Gore was a closer election than Trump v Biden.
Gore conceded when the recount was done according to what the Supreme Court said.
Trump has not acknowledged that he lost. He continued(s)to claim there was fraud—even though he had ample opportunity to produce the evidence.
And in contrast to this election Trump ignored or supported the insurrection, rather than making sure there was a peaceful transfer of power.
He’s talked about pardoning those who were involved in the insurrection.
How can Republicans ignore that?
It is hard. One of my siblings wanted RFK to be the candidate, rather than Trump. But once Trump offered him a position in his cabinet—RFK dropped out. So her vote went for Trump and she’s looking forward to RFK getting a position—like head of the FDA.
(nevermind he doesn’t have a science background and has done some pretty weird things and has/had a worm in his brain)?
It is so hard. I’m the only kid in my family that went to college and I graduated in a science field. I worked in a hospital for 13 yrs. Yet, this sibling “teaches” me about things she’s “learned” about the human body. I just have to bite my tongue and listen.
There’s a lot of nonsense out there.
One thing I learned from my education is to look for reliable sources— and also look at those sources sources.
I’m still processing. I’m not angry; I’m flat. I have no feelings besides just being stunned.
A long time ago, I suffered a terrible injustice. It was something that everyone knows is wrong. Everyone. But if anyone who should have defended me had stood up for me, it would have been inconvenient or socially costly and so no one did. Lots of people really don’t care about right and wrong if it inconveniences them. They pay lip service to the idea of some things being bad, but when the rubber meets the road, they don’t actually care. I survived by telling myself that most people are good; most people care about right and wrong; most people would have done the right thing just not my family. I can’t tell myself that anymore. The people know what Trump did. They just don’t care about right and wrong.
I hope to have feelings again in the next several weeks. I’ve been through shocks like this before. I do think that looking at evil behavior and letting it slide is enabling evil behavior and I do not believe people like that are good. I also know I’ve been deeply scarred and some people believe it’s morally neutral, or at least not abhorrent, to ignore someone’s depraved behavior.
I’ve got a poem (of sorts) that really resonated with me as I tried to process the utter betrayal of all the people who said incest was bad until it would have meant helping me recover. It goes like this:
It didn’t kill me,
And it didn’t make me stronger.
It simply is,
and always will,
be scorched upon my heart.
Janey, I am still swinging between anger at my most functioning to just going flat again. It took me years and years of therapy to finally feel any anger, to break through the numbness, or flatness. So, I am really struggling, trying to stay angry because hot anger is better than cold hatred. So, I am purposely trying to stay angry because if I don’t, then I don’t feel anything but dead. I mentioned to my husband that having a rapist elected just puts me back to nobody even cares, as long as it isn’t them. My abuser really suffered no consequences and I was left with my life in shambles yet I was the bad person for having been harmed. And I was supposed to be so nice to him because he was my father. No, he ended that relationship when he raped me.
People who voted for tRump have violated their relationship of trust with me. I will not be forced into pretending they didn’t publicly announce they don’t care about tRump being a rapist, they support him anyway. They picked the side of this issue they want to be on and I don’t have to be in any relationship with such people. It goes so for beyond “political differences”. They said they don’t care about rape victims. They picked their relationship with tRump over any possible relationship with me. I am just having such a hard time feeling like I even want to stay in this shithole country with the majority of shitty people. Yes, the other half the country are awful people.
and people can’t pretend there was only a choice between tRump and a Democrat so they “held their nose and voted for him,” because they nominated him out of all the Repugnicans, knowing he is a rapist. They just don’t think rape is really bad if it happens to someone else.
So, sorry people who are calling for peace and brotherhood, but only deplorables could vote a rapist in as president. And I don’t want “brotherhood” or fellow citizenship with such awful people.
So, Janey, I hope you find your anger soon. You will feel alive at least, which even though it hurts, it is better than feeling dead.
Since the college educated Democrats on W&T don’t understand why Trump beat Harris in a landslide victory, I will let Bernie Sanders explain it to you.
https://x.com/BernieSanders/status/1854271157135941698?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
I have yet to recover from the Brexit vote. That morning when half of the UK woke up to find we didn’t live in a country we thought we’d been living in. Unfortunately that’s not easily reversed. Since then we’ve had Trump wannabe Boris in charge for far too long, the moral disintegration of the Conservative Party, and a Labour Party that even now is failing to grasp the serious concerns of those that voted for them. The dash to the right in Europe. Putin in Ukraine. I blogged about the Brexit vote at the time, and responded to one of the commenters that Russia would be happy with the result.
Still in mourning for the loss of the nation and wider Europe I grew up in. I am less sympathetic to Ukraine, because the West are expected to pay for what looks to me like a massive failure in diplomacy, and indeed what was baiting of Putin, with constant talk of Ukraine joining the EU.
And a sense that Zelenskyy is very much playing the West. Not that Putin is in the right. Not at all. The US election result is horrific.
Instereo
I am deeply sorry that your daughter, her wife, and their sons have neighbors that target them directly with hate speech. No words.
My initial reaction in election results is profound disappointment.
Over all, I’m dismayed by the continual erosion of healthy government. Reagan effectively started it. I don’t see the role of government being to make rich people richer, but that is what results from sequential tax cuts. There is such hypocrisy in complaining about the national debt, increasing the debt with tax cuts for the undeserving rich, then blaming the debt on those who make our economy work with our work.
There’s also gross irony in feigning concern for working people being hurt by inflation, while weakening labor policies.
What is the likelihood of JD Vance succeeding Trump for 8 years? Of more SCOTUS appointments? Weren’t the majority opinions that allow enormous, often anonymous campaign donations; that the president has broad protection from his/her lawbreaking activities bad enough? What’s next?
I fear for my children’s and grandchildren’s ability to own a home. For the ability of many to even earn enough to pay day-to-day living expenses, let alone be able to ever retire. For the quality of the air that we all breathe and the water we drink, and the safety of our transport systems, and so much more.
Somehow, I am still hopeful. There are good people doing things that make a difference everywhere. In both (major) parties. And none.
Trump made huge gains in winning over Hispanics and Black men. Why? If you can’t understand why and don’t understand why then you will miss what happened in the 2024 election.
Bernie Sanders sees there is a disconnect with what the Democratic Party offers and what Americans want. And clearly there was a disconnect. I can appreciate that Democrats believe they are offering a compelling vision. Yet the Republicans thought the same when there were losing elections to Bill Clinton and Obama.
In politics, it matter not what party leaders and politicians think voters want to hear. Voters ultimately vote what they believe is their best interest. James Carville’s declaration still matters: “It’s the economy.” All other issues fade compared to the one of how can I pay the rent, how can I feed my family, how can I pay my bills?
The Harris campaign could not answer the question of inflation. It struggled to even recognize inflation was a problem! This was why Harris lost.
Indeed, America will sell/ has sold its soul for a pot of porridge.
Democrats keep thinking that moral righteous and reason is enough to win in the face of Trump. Not so. We are a country of capitalistic, individualistic, selfish individuals. Brigham Young was correct about the Adam-God theory; America’s God is Adam–but not the Adam of the Old Testament; the one with the last name ‘Smith.’ We’ve made the belief of ‘everyone acting in their own self-interest is best’ our God, and have, altogether unsprisingly, created a mass of people who believe being selfish is a moral good.
When Archie Bunker reminisced about tv viewing from his favorite chair, he mentioned “Presidential elections; two of ’em good, the rest, what the hell”. There’s a lot of wisdom in that. I was too young for Kennedy, but since then, some good, the rest, what the hell. I got on with my life and responsibilities. I’ve watched one political side become more aggressive, arrogant, hysterical, and violent with each election loss. And their philosophy as young adults 50 years ago was “Try to love one another right now”. Very hypocritical.
Mark Gibson, thank you for so clearly describing the Repulicans of today. But you have that ‘try to love one another right now’ part wrong. Repuclians have been demonizing Democrats for decades, not trying to love them. Indeed, it’s amazing and ironic to watch Republicans so recently begin fall apart like a snowflake when began Democrats call out Republican hypocrisy and return the favor of calling Republian stances evil. The Republican party of Reagan is a ghost of itself. He would never get elected by the aggressive, arrogant, entitled, hysterical, and violent Republican party of today that has ‘no compromise’ and ‘screw the other side at all costs’ as their moto.
Also, to clarify my earlier post: American didn’t even sell itself for a pot of porridge, but the illusion of one. Trump policies, if enacted, would destroy the economy.
Brian writes: “Democrats keep thinking that moral righteous and reason is enough to win in the face of Trump.”
This is exactly the argument Republicans made against Bill Clinton in 1992 and 1996 and the argument made for McCain and Romney in 2008 and 2012. Each time the Republicans claimed they had the more righteous candidate. In the case of Bill Clinton specifically the Republican voter was dismayed that a known cheating and philandering politician like Bill Clinton could be elected president. And when Bill Clinton was acquitted of impeachment for “lying about sex” – he committed perjury – the mainstream media defended Clinton and Republicans were hysterical.
I am actually astounded at the lack of reflection by Democratic party supporters that they or their party made it possible for Trump to be president. Back in the 1990s story after story broke of Bill Clinton’s philandering ways. Each and every time the party and media allies defended Bill Clinton. The Lewinsky story being the last and biggest of all. The idea that the US President should at least pretend to have marriage fidelity was destroyed and Bill Clinton supporters / Democratic parties allies did it. It is no surprise that in the 1990s Howard Stern went from a fringe radio jock to the mainstream – making it acceptable to talk openly and explicitly about sex and sexual escapades was a direct consequence of the media effort to defend Bill Clinton.
And so the standard of presidential moral integrity was shattered. Trump did not do this. It was Bill Clinton and his supporters who did it. And boy is it ironic. Don’t you think Trump saw how Bill Clinton politically survived his sex scandals and thought to himself: “If Bill Clinton can get away with it, then maybe I can get away with it.”
I am struggling with the phrase “If you are at the table with Nazi’s, you’re at the Nazi table” right now. At it’s not some sort of projection vilifying the “other side”, because Trumps base regularly flew Nazi flags at rallies for him. They are self identifying as the worst of the worst and they are behaving like it too. And Republicans have done nothing to distance themselves from it.
So all of these “but I am a good person” sitting at the Nazi table makes me highly suspect that their lamps have no oil in them.
How ccould I think otherwise?
A Disciple, I hear you. Doesn’t change or even challenge what I said at all. Also, you fail to address what exactly made Obama such a moral failure to Republicans. Probably because there’s nothing compared to Trump. And what you argue against Democratic lack of self reflection equally applies to Republicans does it not?
I am really getting tired of Repugnicans blaming the Democrats for the Republican corruption. Yes, Clinton lied about sex. So has tRump. Yes, Clinton committed perjury and His Orange Magisty just refused to testify to avoid perjury. You might say tRump is smarter to just refuse to testify or you could say he is more cuppupt. But you really can’t fairly say that Repugnicans are justified in being so totally lawless because of Clinton. Clinton was a screw up and Democrats did not re-elect him. But tRump was a disaster for the economy and Biden has actually been fixing the economy mess tRump left. And tRump was ruled guilty of essentially raping someone, not just having sex with a willing underling. Trump is so much worse than Clinton there is no comparison and you are blaming Democrats for tRump’s corruption?!?!
So far it has been Democrats taking the high road and upholding the constitution and Repugnicans trying to violate the constitution and cheating to get their nomination into the Supreme Court. Most of the conviction for voter fraud that have been proven were Republicans. So all the corruption you are blaming on Democrats the Repugnicans are so much worse and you are so blind or so stupid or dishonest you refuse to see Republican corruption. Trump won’t drain the swamp because he IS the swamp.
He is the supper rich elite you repugnant swear words hate, yet you love him. Yup, you are awful. And the more you come argue with you backwards logic and Billy Clinton hit me first so I had to shoot him in self defense, the more convinced I am getting that all tRump voters are deplorable.
and I am bowing out of this hopeless attempt to convince ourselves that people who hang with Hitler worshipping, women hating, corrupt, money worshipping, tRump worshippers are not themselves totally despicable. They are losing ground in my estimation, not convincing me of their good intentions, just their stupidity. And I don’t respect purposeful stupidity.
Anna, you may want to edit your post which says Democrats did not re-elect Clinton. He served two terms. The person who was not elected was Ms Clinton, not even once.
I agree with Jacob L and others that the economy/inflation was the main reason Harris lost, and agree with OP that
2. True disciples of Jesus Christ should still love their neighbors. I understand the anger and hurt many of us are feeling. But we should still not totally give up on dialogue with those who see things differently, as hard as it may be. How else can we effect change?
I really appreciate this blog.
at “A Disciple”
”. And when Bill Clinton was acquitted of impeachment for “lying about sex” – he committed perjury – the mainstream media defended Clinton and Republicans were hysterical.”
I, a Democrat, specifically did not vote for Bill Clinton the next time he ran for office in 1992, because he lied under oath about his relationship with Lewinsky.
That was a red line for me.
Compare that to our first introduction to Trump as a potential candidate—the Access Hollywood tape recording where he is bragging about his ability to grab women’s private parts, and add to that all his disgusting behavior,
What is the red line for Republicans?
correction: It was the 1996 election I did not vote for Bill Clinton.
One of many women who’ve had aggressive “interactions” from Trump:
”Temple Taggart McDowell, a former Miss Utah, was quoted by The New York Times in a report published on May 15 as saying that Trump “kissed me directly on the lips” when the two were introduced in 1997, when she was 21. Taggart told the Times, “I thought, ‘Oh my God, gross.'” The Times story said Trump disputed the report and added that Trump said “he is reluctant to kiss strangers on the lips.”
(Reuters 2016)
Wikipedia article on Ms Lewinski: “News of the Clinton–Lewinsky relationship broke in January 1998,” which would have been after the 1992 and 1996 elections.
Brian,
Romney was the perfectly moral candidate. Not a blemish. Yet Joe Biden himself told an audience of black Americans that Romney would “Put them back in chains.” And Harry Reid went to the Senate floor and claimed Romney hadn’t paid taxes in ten years. Reid never provided evidence for this claim. Later when pressed on the lie he quipped, “Romney didn’t win, did he.”
So if Republicans get no credit for running a candidate with impeccable integrity, if in fact Democrats and the media will demean and impugn such candidates with lies, and repeat those lies, why should Republicans run “moral” candidates? Seriously, what is the value of honor and integrity if all that does it lead to the Republicans losing?
Part of the genius of Trump in taking over the Republican party is he campaigns as a Democrat. Before Trump, Republicans always turned the other cheek. Before Trump, Republicans thought it better to lose with honor than fight in the mud. Well, Trump fights in the mud. Trump dishes out mud. Trump campaigns as a Democratic. And while we may hate the style, the method works. This is why Trump has won three GOP nominations and two Presidential elections.
Should we like the fact that Trump lowers Republicans to the Democrat campaign level? Well no. But if Americans ARE NOT going to penalize and politically punish Democrats for hitting low and lying about Republicans, it only makes sense that Republicans do to Democrats what Democrats do to them. And Trump is one of the few Republicans willing to do this.
And all please note. Joe Biden is one of those who smeared Mitt Romney. Smeared him fiercely. And yet you will defend Biden as “honorable” and more moral than Trump. Sure, Trump has low morals and you will say there is no depth to which Trump will not sink. Yet how low was Biden willing to sink? Awfully low is what I see.
And Brian, my point about McCain and Romney is Republicans chose the most honorable candidates – McCain with his military record and Romney with his impeccable character. When Obama went up against McCain he was a nobody except for having given an inspiring speech at the 2004 Democratic Party Convention. McCain’s record and honor didn’t matter against Obama. Romney’s executive record and integrity didn’t matter against Obama. This is not a judgment against Obama. It is recognizing that the mantra that “character matters” doesn’t seem to actually help Republicans. With Bush & Dole vs Clinton and McCain & Romney vs Obama the Republicans ran 4 of the most honorable, respectable candidates they possibly could and all it got them was four election losses.
Yes, it is.
A Disciple, it’s quite laughable to argue that somehow Trump is just entering the level of the Democrats. What Republicans did to Kerry is on par to what you are arguing Democrats did, perhaps. But what Republicans did to Obama is something else altogehter. Your version of history is clearly through conservative lenses. Come back with more objective arguments and we can keep this going.
And you’re seriously arguing that Biden is more moral than Trump? Something else, man. I’d give you a gold medal for gymnastics any day for that sort of mind-bending illusion. You always start by appearing to play the part of some ‘above it all,’ objective commenter on politics. And, to your credite, you are often able to play the part for a little while. And then the facade comes down. Push A Disciple a little and then the true colors come out. Keep digging the hole if you want. Be by guest. But until you actually come with something less partisan, I’m not interested in your alternate versions of reality.
Lois,
The Bill Clinton timeline of women problems is often misunderstood and for good reason. Clinton’s 1992 campaign was challenged by rumors of affairs but the main one to hit the headlines was his relationship with Gennifer Flowers. This caused Bill & Hillary Clinton to do a famous interview on 60-minutes where the Clintons showed they were committed to each other, despite difficulties in their marriage. This interview was extremely politically successful for the Clintons.
A consequence of the Flowers story and interview and attention to it is it drowned out other rumors. One of these concerned Juanita Broaddrick and her claim that she had been raped. That there were multiple rumors was indicated by Betsey Wright, a long time Clinton aid. She quipped that one of her jobs during the 1992 campaign was to deal with the “Bimbo Eruptions” of stories involving Bill Clinton’s dalliances.
Clinton’s first term had many, many scandals and political firestorms. Consequently, the one “sex scandal” to happen after Clinton took office was one that barely got noticed. In 1994 Paula Jones filed a lawsuit against Bill Clinton that he had sexually harassed her in 1991. This lawsuit eventually led to discovery of the Monica Lewinsky relationship. But public awareness of that scandal and Clinton’s impeachment trial took place after Bill Clinton was reelected in 1996.
In summary, Bill Clinton’s infidelity was a known issue in 1992 but it was waved away and Broaddrick’s story involving Clinton was not given the time of day. In 1996 Clinton’s infidelity was not a major campaign issue although Conservative media was regurgitating the stories. In 1998 the Lewinsky Scandal hit the headlines and broke the Internet and TV media – I remember those years and it was crazy.
The Clinton story is relevant to the Trump discussion in two ways. First that Bill Clinton’s infidelity and rumors were excused in Clinton’s first campaign. Second, the Lewinsky Scandal proved that Bill Clinton was guilty of unbelievable moral turpitude. And yet Clinton refused to resign and he stubbornly demanded the country wade through the shame and embarrassment of his actions. And not only did Clinton finish his second term but after his presidency he was made a welcome and distinguished fixture of the Democratic party.
By the way, while I think Bill Clinton is an immoral, if not perverted, man, his willingness to work with Republican leadership in Congress from 1995 – 2000 yielded the best government America has had since Reagan. And I am willing to give Clinton credit for being a dang good politician and president, even if I would never want my wife or daughters to ever be alone with him.
“[T]he 22nd states a president can only be elected for two terms”
But he has already been elected three times.
I recommend not responding to @jmadison. Absurd unfounded claims about 2020 are way off topic and I’m not interested in providing a forum for the conspiracy theorists. Waste of everyone else’s time & energy and not deserving of a response.
We have just had a scandal in Australian politics because various politicians were upgraded on their flights and did not report it.
Our country is about the same size as mainland USA but has a population of 30 million.
We have universal healthcare.
We have the best beaches in the world, and free to the public, and ski resorts too.
The exchange rate at present is 60c to the US$.
Our federal government runs a surplus, and some states do too.
In case you need to get away from Trump for a while, and want to see what life can be like..
Sorry, Elisa. Pound sand, jmadison.
Here is an article that appears on the Australian BC. It suggests that American Christians see trump as saving them from attacks from secularism. Clinton is not mentioned. They want the 60s preserved, where women were in the kitchen or bedroom, gays were in the closet, abortion was not for the poor, coloured people were not visible, and climate change did not exist.
It says 60% of Mormons voted for Trump, but 85% of evangelicals did, but it redefines evangelicans as including people .
That in their eyes Harris was not fighting trump, but God.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-11-09/trump-president-christian-voters-helped-win-white-house/104576592
Why not take jmadison seriously? If Trump has been elected three times, then he cannot constitutionally take office in January. (I know, that still leaves us with a JD Vance problem, but it would drop a few disqualifying descriptors, like felon, insurrectionist, and sexual predator from our description of the new president.)
@lastlemming hah, that would be a fun strategy by the dems! Ultimately prob bad for democracy tho.
A Disciple, et al.:
1st: All of us that have partaken of the temple endowment have made a promise to help build Zion. I’m sure I’m not in the minority in having the continuous desire to seek after this, where all have all things in common. I fear under current/ongoing circumstances, this dream is being set back/delayed.
2nd: With all due respect and with all the compassion and charity I can muster in my words here, you have forgotten or overlooked these phases (highlights mind you..many I’ve left out for the sake of brevity) in the conservative movement here in the US, which has brought us to today’s Trumpism mindset:
1) McCarthyism
2) John Birch Societyism
3) In the LDS Church, the sidetrack Elder/President Benson (other GA’s to a lesser extent, i.e. Clark, Joseph Fielding Smith, Lee, Peterson) led many members on during his early apostleship, as he ventured into his now disavowed paths of conservatism.
4) Goldwaterism
5) Nixonism/The Southern Strategy
6) Reaganism/Reaganomics
7) Tax Cutism/government is too bigism
7) Bush 1’ism
8) Gingrichism
9) Bush 2’ism
10) Christian Nationalism, especially the White Christian brand
11) Dominionism/Christian Theocracyism
12) Tea Partyism
13) Increased racism because a black man was elected POTUS.
14) Birtherism
15) Trumpism
16) Authoritarianism
17) More self-centerism, where the US withdraws from a long standing tradition of a national social safety net and as an active world participant for the well being of all.
I’m saddened as I read the reply’s to this post. What started out as an effort by Elisa to make lemonade out of lemons. Many of us truly are personally afraid and/or mourning. Please don’t deflect our feelings, gaslight us or ask us to practice cognitive dissonance.
I agree with Elisa on point a), which I think for me is hardest one to take. To me character matters. I have heard from my own devout LDS uncle that all politicians are corrupt and immoral so voting for Trump isn’t any different. However, these same people did not overwhelming vote for Bill Clinton. (Utah’s support for Clinton in ’92 was 24% and 33% in ’96.) It is hard to look past people who preach honesty, fidelity, service, etc. and then watch them turn around and vote for Donald Trump. My trust is definitely damaged.
As for blame Mitch McConnell is at the top of my list. He blocked President Obama’s supreme court pick. He also could have ended this after Jan. 6th by voting for Trump’s impeachment and rallying others as the Republican Leader of the Senate, but no he punted.
@a disciple – I deleted your comment about race & racism because I don’t have the bandwidth to manage the amount of comments and controversy it would generate and I did not see a connection between the bulk of the comment & the comment you were responding to re creating Zion. It may make sense for an OP about race but this was not that OP.
Elisa,
Fair enough, but why does Dennis get to claim without evidence that, “Increased racism because a black man was elected POTUS.”?
The perpetuation of false narratives directly contributes to the bitterness in American politics & anger in our society. What accommodation will this platform provide for pushing back on dishonest, inflammatory claims and hold those making them accountable?
@a disciple, tbh, I didn’t notice that in skimming that comment and I am not really sure what that even means. It does not strike me as “inflammatory” given how short / inscrutable / not really generating a conversation it was. In fact I was confused where your comment even came from because race was such a tiny line on a big list (of things I didn’t totally understand the relevance of either).
I rarely delete comments and I am not accusing your comment of being “racist” (it wasn’t) but like I said – I just am not prepared to host a discussion about racism in America and the various causes and whether Obama made it worse or just revealed it etc etc etc. That may be an interesting topic but not one germane to my OP and, again, I am just not up to the task of moderating that either emotionally or intellectually. And for some posts I don’t do much moderating at all and very rarely do I ever delete comments, but this week, while people are still hurting, I am trying to minimize people being exposed to more hurt. Perhaps given that I should not have posted on the election at all, but alas I did.
So Elisa: through your eyes – do you think your post (and the resulting “discussion” – I suppose I can call it that) did any good? Heal anything? Bridge a divide? Open new avenues of thought? Delivered peace in any way? …….Certainly, I think it did provide some therapy to some – resulting from being able to “scream into void”. Personally, I don’t think some of the breach – will ever be healed.
Both sides went way to far to the extremes; and I don’t think there’s any coming back from that. Unless, of course, there’s a collapse of everything – and human kind is forced to start over again. However, even then, I suspect that over time we’ll do (again) exactly what we’ve done.
@lefthandloafer, not interested in responding to sarcasm. If you don’t like the post or comments, you don’t need to spend more time on it. I enjoyed and learned from many of the comments. Some seemed to miss my point entirely. Many engaged thoughtfully. As is the case with many posts.
Hmmmmm…..my question was sincere. No sarcasm was being sent your way. Yes, I personally – have become very cynical on some matters; which is my burden not yours
Thank you for the response, Elisa. In return, I might kindly give you the same counsel as well….”Get over it”.
Very interesting. This is a discussion board about religion and yet the post with the vast majority of comments, (and passionate ones at that), is political.
@lily
From our “About”:
“Wheat and Tares is a group of eclectic bloggers who like to blog about stuff. The stuff is admittedly quite random.”
Thank you, Elisa, for this bigger-picture approach to the present political situation. Three points which especially resonated with me:
“The cataclysmic fatalism on both sides is problematic.”
“…if our institutions are going to fall apart because of the election of one president, then the problems are way, way deeper that just Trump. We need to tone down the fearmongering, the conspiracy theories, and the fatalism. I just personally don’t think it’s productive or good for anyone’s mental health or relationships.”
“Love your neighbor.”
We need to work at finding the best in others, finding the points where we are capable of cooperation and empathy. Personally, I’ve lost the inclination to hang all my hopes on any one person or party. I’m not sure how we do that, since conflict via fear and anger is so much easier to market. Regardless, thank you for this post
The people in my life who voted for tRUMP are dead to me. They may not reveal that they voted this way and so we will continue our cordial or loving relation. But I want them to know that if they were honest about who they are, I would leave them by the side of the road, just as they did me when they cast that vote.
vajra2, to each his or her own. One can hate people who disagree with oneself, but then one would be hating a lot of people. And one must sometimes limit friendships. Many of the people you know might not know what your issue is, so some of your people may have voted contrary to how you voted, but that doesn’t mean that they hate you. They may have voted on other issues that were more pressing to them. I don’t know that your acquaintances wilfully voted against you when they cast their votes.
I don’t want to hate everyone who disagrees me on some issue, or who votes differently from me. That might blind me to reasons to love them, and I think that most people have some redeemimg qualities, even if those qualities are mixed in with faults.
Thank you for your kind and thoughtful comment. However, I don’t hate the people in my life for whom the Predator Elect’s dishonesty, racism, homophobia, and misogyny, and authoritarianism were not dealbreakers. I view them has having taken embraced those moral defects either through willful ignorance, cupidity, or self-centeredness. But I repeat myself.
I agree that we all have faults. “I am myself indifferent honest, but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me.” I understand that the Joseph and Magda Goebbels were doting parents prior to murdering their children in the bunker. Would you say they had redoing qualities? I don’t.
Those who voted for tRump have chosen amorality and thus I do not want them in my life. I don’t hate them. I am indifferent to them. They are dead to me.
Testing
Sorry: I’m having huge probs. with WordPress. HUGE!
It seems pretty apparent after reading all the comments and seeing the likes and dislikes that:
I see…so people who believed a twice impeached felon are not stupid, they are just oh naiive and have everyone’s best interests at hear. You know where we have heard that previously–in Nazi Europe—oh those apple cheeked boys didn’t know what they were doing. Well, I’ll remind of you what they were doing–burning and gassing 6 million jews because without jews the world would be truly honestly be well off. We really really believed it to be so. Sorry we were wrong about that…in hindsight. Trumps will come and go, you know who will persist in their hatred of everything decent—those 80 million Americans who held their noses, as you say, and still voted for him. This is how the downfall of empires starts. Whites believed honestly truly blacks were half human, somewhere between apes and humans, they were born to be slaves, they used the bible to justify rapes and lynching of black folks and what did that give us…liberation?? No. It gave us the Civil war. Trump is NOT the problem he is a symptom of the problem that raises it ugly head every few decades in the US. Don’t even get me started on the other assholy maneuvers of the republicans to destroy humans on the pretext of ‘improving our country.’