As I noted in last week’s post, the Church recently republished its gentle plea for “civility in political discourse.” Will it change the behavior or speech of any LDS speaker? Possibly here and there, but don’t hold your breath. Let’s look at some recent commentary.
First, an Atlantic article titled “What I Didn’t Understand About Political Lying.” The important point that I want to make is that lying certainly relates directly to “civility in political discourse.” Lying in public statements or in campaign speeches is the epitome of *uncivil* discourse. It targets and takes advantage of less informed and gullible listeners, to the benefit of the liar and the detriment of those listeners who are fooled. Here is the first bit of the article:
For American politicians, this is a golden age of lying. Social media allows them to spread mendacity with speed and efficiency, while supporters amplify any falsehood that serves their cause. When I launched PolitiFact in 2007, I thought we were going to raise the cost of lying. I didn’t expect to change people’s votes just by calling out candidates, but I was hopeful that our journalism would at least nudge them to be more truthful.
I was wrong. More than 15 years of fact-checking has done little or nothing to stem the flow of lies.
Not too many years ago, lying was a tricky act for politicians, because getting caught in a bold lie was highly disfavored by the electorate and often by one’s fellow politicians, even those in one’s own party. Exposed liars did not fare well at the ballot box. In the Age of Trump, this is decidedly not the case anymore, as lamented by the author in the linked article. There is, at present, little or no cost to political lying. It’s not like Trump is the only politician who tells lies, it’s just that he does so relentlessly and effectively. So effectively that lots of politicians are trying the same strategy, often with success of their own. This isn’t how politics is supposed to work in America!
Second, as relates to the LDS civil political discourse counsel, consider this article at the Deseret News: “Sen. Mike Lee, Glenn Beck, and others join Donald Trump on webinar directed at Latter-day Saint voters.” I wonder whether Trump toned down his dark and threatening rhetoric (most recently, talking about “the enemy within,” meaning you, me, and anyone else who does not support Trump) in that call or told fewer lies than usual.
The Deseret News, of course, offered no fact-checking of its own. It quotes Sen. Mike Lee as follows: “Trump would do a better job defending the structural protections provided by the Constitution, Lee said, adding he doesn’t think it’s a ‘close call, not by a mile.'” I’ll tell you what’s not a close call: Mike Lee is either an idiot (if he believes what he said) or a liar (if he doesn’t). Trump spent much of his first term doing his best to *undermine* structural protections provided by the Constitution, and there is really no argument against that claim. January 6 is only the most visible episode, along with the fake electors plot. Lee, you recall, is the guy who proclaimed Trump to be a Latter-day Captain Moroni a few years ago. If you know of any LDS politicians who, after listening to Conference, issued a public statement that they will no longer employ lying as a political tactic, let me know.
Third, apart from the application to LDS politicians and political campaign speeches and statements, does the plea for civil discourse apply to the Church itself? That is, if honesty and candor is part of civil discourse, does this mean that LDS leadership and those who speak for the Church should be more transparent and honest in their public statements? I’m not going to dwell on this point, but it would be enlightening to take the temperature in the room. Do you think the Church, over the last decade or two, has become more honest and accurate or less in its own lessons and narratives on LDS history? Has the Church become more transparent and accurate in its financial reporting and disclosure of same to the membership? In public statements, is the Church being candid or manipulative?
Let’s hear from the readers.
- Why is lying suddenly so successful for American politicians? It has not always been this way.
- Did anyone attend the LDS for Trump webinar discussed above? I’d love to hear what you thought of the presentation.
- Do you think the requirement of civility in public discourse, including a duty of honesty and candor, applies to LDS leadership and those who speak for the Church?
- If you do, how do you think the Church is doing at following its own counsel?
Wheat & Tares 
Elder Boyd K. Packer taught “Some things that are true are not very useful.”
President Dallin H. Oaks said “But not everything that’s true is useful.”
Oaks also warned “It’s wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true.”
Winston Churchill famously said, “In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies.”
For the likes of Packer and Oaks, the war never ended.
___________
My own belief is “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32
Lying has been the norm in American politics since at least 1800. Rabid partisan newspapers were the norm not the exception. The editors were rewarded with the spoils after the elections.
I suggest reading Remini’s books on Jackson and Clay. The infamous “Corrupt Bargain” was in 1824, when Clay, Calhoun and Adams stole the Presidency from Jackson. He had a majority of electoral votes but the others combined their votes to elect Adams in the House.
My favorite epithet was Clay calling Jackson worse than cholera during a cholera epidemic. As I recall, Biden did the same for Trump during COVID, and probably vice versa.
Attention span. It takes 5 seconds to claim that the liberals made Hurricane Milton. It takes significantly longer to explain to someone why that idea is preposterous. Lies are easy, fast and fit within a 140 character limit. Real truth is often complex and nuanced and frankly not very clear in many instances. As a society we have been eroding our attention spans for decades until we only consume ideas through 12 second tiktok videos while eating our blizzards at the local Dairy Queen.
Standards of honesty and candor ought to be applied more highly on any person or group that makes claims to speak for God. Not that such people are infallible or shouldn’t be expected to make mistakes. But they ought to own up to their errors. I don’t see the Church doing a very good job of this.
But the real reason I wanted to comment is just to say that the picture in this post appears to be in the chapel I grew up attending. I can’t find a single detail that doesn’t match. I know it’s just a photo pulled from the internet, but apparently I grew up attending the most stereotypical Mormon building possible.
I remember when politicians feared YouTube, because they could be caught saying something that they couldn’t deny later. Lying works because the media cycle moves so fast. Can you remember the headlines from two weeks ago? Additionally much of the media, especially on the right, is an echo chamber and propagandistic. Lawyerism has taken hold of the much of the public narrative with its promotion of the idea that you can argue any point no matter how disingenuous you sound. Also, lawyerism aims to muddy the waters so much so as to make issues difficult to understand and thereby helping to make seemingly damning issues lose weight and significance. Much of the church narrative is based on lawyerism.
Toxic positivity is another new tactic that helps make lies successful. Don’t shape a narrative around the facts and admit defeat when it if someone shows you you’re factually incorrect. Instead simply shape whatever narrative you want, never admitting error or the possibility of error, and will it to be true. Another church tactic.
When you’re point can’t be defended, attack the character of the person(s) criticizing you. Media outlets exposing your lies and grift? Blame the media. Also bothsides it. Someone criticizes Trump? Say that the Democrats are doing the same thing, you’re just blind to it. Another church tactic. Blame the critic. They were offended and they wanted to sin.
Lastly, hero-worship. Trump’s great because Trump’s great. Circular logic. Russell Nelson’s great because he’s great.
There is a schism developing in the LDS Church. The fissure is developing between two camps: non-polygamous LDS fundamentalists on the political far right (supporters of the Heartland theory of the Book of Mormon, FIRM Foundation, Glenn Beck, Tim Ballard, Joseph Smith Foundation, etc.) vs. who the fundamentalists call the “progressives” (those who support the “Saints” project in church history, the First Presidency’s Covid statement, Richard Bushman, Terryl and Fiona Givens, etc.). It is the second group which is attempting to engage in civility and political neutrality. The fundamentalists have no interest in doing so. The fundamentalists are getting politically bolder (as evidenced by the Maga event discussed above). Church leaders are in danger of cutting a deal with the devil to keep the fundamentalists inside the Church. The moment a religious organization allows itself to be used for politically partisan purposes, it risks replacing the Gospel with the political ideology of the fundamentalists/political far right. This has already happened to a degree during the 20th century (think Ezra Taft Benson, Reed Bensons and Cleon Skousen) but submission to the political far right of today could have enormous social and political ramifications for all LDS people and those who associate with them.
Mike Lee is not to be taken seriously – he is nothing more than a Trump sycophant campaigning to be Attorney General. God help us all if that happens.
Lying in our civil discourse (or lack thereof) used to be more discrete. As in “we think that overall Brigham Young respected women”. It has evolved into the bizarre – such as “Democrats control the weather” and “immigrants are eating your pets”.
Mormons have perfected the art of passive-aggressive lying. Saying one thing to your face and another behind your back is the modus operandi. Ward politics are more insidious than ever as members campaign for leadership callings and elevated social status.
True civil discourse does not exist in Mormon classroom settings for the simple reason there is no discourse – only top-down instructions from those in power. It is the old Soviet model on steroids. Discourse implies two way dialogue which is verboten. This is one of the primary reasons I have to carefully choose how I participate. Engaging in true discourse is seen as nothing more than an unwanted distraction.
For intimacy and emotional health, honesty and authenticity is the only way. This is true in personal relationships. We cannot feel love if we are pretending to be something we aren’t because we know, if our loved one knew the truth, they might not love us.
We each have relationships with the church as well and dishonesty has an impact on our ability to trust in any relationship, including with institutions.
The church has had the opportunity to cover things up historically. Today the Internet doesn’t really make that an option. The truth is shouted from the rooftops and no one can cover it up. Our church is trying to adjust to this bit by bit, dribbling out bits of information and trying to control the narrative. They haven’t yet fully accepted that they aren’t in charge of what is known, and that it isn’t going to work in the long term.
They have to openly come clean to rebuild that relationship. Like an unfaithful spouse, the only path, the only chance, of rebuilding trust is through the truth. That’s humbling but necessary for trust to be rebuilt.
Another necessary part of betrayal and rebuilding trust is accepting the autonomy of those who may not choose to trust in the relationship, no matter what you say. So far I don’t see any indications of the church accepting the autonomy of it’s members. Instead leaders shame and abuse those who question, and make their own decisions about the church.
These are toxic relationship patterns for both couples and institutions.
Luke 12:2&3
For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops
Queue the liberal Echo Chamber…….and climb on Dave B’s Hobby Horse……He just can’t help himself…..
Another reason lying has become acceptable is that back in the 1900-1960s newspapers, TV stations, and other media had many owners. Your local newspaper was owned locally. Your local TV stations were owned locally. Those local owners controlled what news was and was not worth printing. This is no longer the case. Big conglomerates own most of the news outlets, and they dictate what news gets shared with the public. While the far right screams that liberals control the news media, it is actually the fact that one man, who is a stanch conservative owns the majority of the news outlets in the country. So, one conservative man is dictating the news to a majority of Americans. Wonder why all kinds of attention was paid to Biden’s every verbal slip and very little attention is being paid to the fact that Trump talks in an incoherent ramble. Because one man is telling the news outlets what to tell the public. So, Trumps lies are just repeated as truth by most news outlets. So, rather than calling him out on his lies, the news just treats his lies as gospel truth or totally ignores that he lies constantly.
Sure, there are some left owned news outlets, and they mostly paint a balanced look at things because they hold to a standard of journalism that held up an ideal of getting the personal bias out of the news. My mother was an old time newspaper reporter and as she started seeing how journalism was changing as these ideals were dropped, she was horrified and actually predicted that the US was losing its free press. Sure, the press isn’t government controlled, but it is still controlled by just a few powerful, rich, people.
I must admit that Salt Lake’s Trib is kind of an exception, because when the old owners sold it to the same big company that also owns Deseret News, part of the agreement was that the Trib could continue writing its “opposing” viewpoint.
At least your post was allowed grizzerbear55. Dave B censored mine, on the history of uncivil discourse. It didn’t fit his 2024 partisan narrative.
“Queue the liberal Echo Chamber…….and climb on Dave B’s Hobby Horse……He just can’t help himself…..”
Oh the irony . . .
Brian, exactly what I was thinking.
……and, Now, for an example of uncivil discourse we give you grizzerbear55. He does nothing to refute any facts given in the OP, he does not further dialog in any way. He just gives us a two second bit attacking the forum for being an echo chamber and attacking the original poster.
The more Trump lies, the more his signs pop up in my southern Utah neighborhood. I recently put a small Harris/Walz sign on my lawn, which my spouse supported, but after a few days she asked me to remove it because she felt we were unsafe. Our neighbors are outwardly nice people but she’s worried about the potential for internalized extremism hiding behind their silly grins. It’s astounding to me that Trump’s terrible lies continue to be protected under the brethren’s neutrality pitch.
MWEG members have shared that this webinar which featured Mike Lee, Glenn Beck and Trump, was shared on ward and stake GroupMe Relief Society links. When MWEG sisters objected to leaders that church connected resources and communications should be politically neutral, they were told GroupMe isn’t official church communications, so it could be used for politics, even though the ward and stake in the area use GroupMe to inform members of activities etc.
This is a nasty example of increasing divisions, decreasing unity, and excluding certain types of members. MWEG sisters intend to try to post Republicans for Harris links on GroupMe as well since politics are fair game, apparently. We will see how that goes.
Old Man, great observation about the divergence emerging in Mormonism. We see it politically as well. There are old school Reaganist Mormons in politics such as John Giles, mayor of Mesa, AZ, and former AZ Senator Jeff Flake (who vocally support Harris for president) and then there are Trumpist politicians such as Mike Lee.
Dave F., I recently read an article about rampant vandalism of Harris signs and harassment towards Harris supporters in Southern Utah. Stay safe.
It’s easier to lie because people live in parallel media ecosystems, some of it traditional style media, a lot of it new media like podcasts and social media echo chambers. Two decades ago Al Gore warned us about an “inconvenient truth”. There are many truths that are inconvenient to people’s political beliefs, across the political spectrum. But now we live in a world where inconvenient truths can be dismissed as fabrications of one’s political enemies and quickly ignored rather than reckoned with. These do exist on both ends of the political spectrum, but it would be wrong to claim it’s anywhere close to symmetric. A significant portion of the right live in a world where most of the untrue things Trump claims are dogmas that can’t be questioned. Mike Lee in particular strikes me as an intellectual lightweight more than an intentional liar. His brain has been pickling in the world of extreme right wing nonsense for so long that I think he probably believes the most of the wild things he claims. He is incurious and uninterested in whether the things he says may not be true, a less vulgar version of Trump himself.
I am connected to people on social media who attended the LDS for Trump event and posted summaries online. The most striking theme to me was an admission that Trump is a very flawed person. The alternative, however, was presented as sufficiently dark and apocalyptic that Trump, flaws and all, must be elected in order to save us from it, apparently.
“Just remember Jerry it’s not a lie, if you believe it.” George Costanza
I wonder at what point I will stop being amazed at the things people will believe. In the faith tradition, where faith is apparently a choice, you can literally believe anything you want.
Every time Donald Trump opens his mouth I sing in my head “You’re making things up again, Donald” which is one of my favorite lines from the Book of Mormon musical.
So many good points in both the article and the comments.
Utah has Fox 13, KUTV owned my Sinclair (just as bad but not as in your face), KSL owned by the church, and ABC 4 which very few listen to or watch and has a weak news department locally and nationally. Then there’s the Deseret News owned by the church but many who read and comment call it a liberal news outlet. The Tribune is basically online and a subscription so you have to pay for the whole truth (that’s kind of a joke, a great experience, and sad that we have to go to an NPR model in newspapers). The sad thing about Utah and most of the nation is that now virtually every market, large and small, is controlled by one print media outlet, and one or two large broadcast corporations owned by extremely conservative individuals or corporations.
So do they care about the truth? NO! They care about money!
It used to be that people, at least I was, were afraid of being exposed, but now it’s all spun into some narrative. It can be a more liberal spinning about their environment or how they grew up, or it can be a conservative spinning, either denying, excusing, or blaming. It may not be equal to both sides but arguments from both sides are used to justify whatever point someone wants to make. I mean, don’t you just love it when conservatives quote Martin Luther King to justify their support to do or do away with something that is racist?
Where is the church in all this? It’s a large, branded corporation with an image to uphold and a lot to hide. So yes, they lie like so many others do. There’s no conversation or dialog between leadership and membership, just justification and intimidation to follow without question.
The scriptures can talk about how our sins will be shouted from the rooftops in the last days, and we’ll see it, but it won’t change people following false prophets or people saying lo here and lo there in the “name” of Christ. Just listen to a member of your ward explain how they don’t like Trump but will vote for him because they feel God has anointed him to lead us back to righteousness. You know, change the Supreme Court to outlaw abortion, protect religion, and get rid of gay marriage.
Finally, someone mentioned how it’s so easy to say four words to lie and how hard it is to refute it in 144 characters. The sound byte is a two-edged sword.
Once again the word Trump is being used like Hitler in Godwin’s Law. It’s a meme that closes off discussion. Maybe living so close to the skinheads has made you act like them?
Could we talk about Harris for a moment? Constantly proclaiming the evils of Trump doesn’t make her a leader. Her unwillingness to speak at the Al Smith Dinner roast. Is that anti Catholic? Is it anti charity? Is it an unwillingness to speak extemporaneously? Biden, Obama, Hillary, Gore, Kerry, Trump, Bush, Romney and McCain all attended, and it’s a Democratic party institution. What’s Harris’s problem? She’s displaying the worst anti Catholicism in 150 years, and she has completely lost a bloc of voters Biden relied on. Trump may be an amoral choice, but Harris is an anti religious choice. Like the Catholics, Mormons and Jews are rightfully concerned.
None of the candidates I listed displayed the same moral rectitude of Harris. Her stance on unlimited abortion is reminiscent of Carrie Nation’s stance on alcohol. What Harris believes is no joking matter. And except for unlimited abortion she’s not telling us what she believes.
I think one of the most profound and deeply-entrenched pathologies of conservative culture in the U.S. is the notion that Democrats are vile (or evil, same letters re-arranged) and communists. I am conservative, but I disagree — most Democrats are actually good Americans — they may have a different answer than me to whatever public policy matter is being discussed, but they are still good Americans.
How many Republicans (and Latter-day Saints) will say they don’t like Trump but will hold their noses and vote for Trump because they see it as anathema or even sinful to vote for a Democrat? How did this pathology envelop our country?
ji, I don’t know all the answers, but as far the Church goes, Benson (and the then contemporay leadership’s inability to rein him in and subsequent leadership’s inability to address his rhetoric on the matter) certainly didn’t help.
If the Church really cared about integrity and civility in public discourse, it would hold LDS politicians accountable by the same standards they expect from the general membership. Mike Lee has said and done things in his public life that should obviously disqualify him for a temple recommend, yet as far as I know he remains a member in good standing. The Church should publicly disavow, and perhaps punish its members who hold public office when they act in un-Christlike ways, since this represents the violation of the “ultimate commandment” (soiling the good name of the Church). If they can take away temple recommends from rank-and-file members for an occasional cup of coffee or getting a few dollars behind on tithing, then why not go after the wholesale liars and cheaters?
Unfortunately, honesty will never fully be part of the program because the Church is a system that trains its own members to lie. By the time they reach adulthood, most devout Mormons have figured out that lying is the fastest way to get a temple recommend, while those who are truly honest, humble and self-reflective are punished and excluded. It’s something they will never dare say out loud because senior leaders of the Church still benefit from it.
On a similar note, Jon Huntsman Jr (former UT gov) has long been a non-believing jackmormon (it’s practically an open secret in Utah), but he always played the public role of devout LDS priesthood holder whenever he was campaigning for office, or whenever it suited his purposes. I’m not sure if he was just doing this for votes, or because of the expectations connected to his family name, but it always seemed like it’s own kind of dishonesty; like why couldn’t he just be honest about himself to the public and trust the voters to evaluate him on his merits? Probably because he actually wanted to win. Still, given the choice I would much prefer Huntsman’s brand of religious hypocrisy (politically moderate, closeted non-believer) to Mike Lee’s (unscrupulous Trump bootlick, still devout LDS).
Grew up in UT, however, have lived my adult years outside Utah//including East and West coasts/sides of the country. I’ve been interested in finding the facts for a very long time.
First:
I was a science major in college and became very aware of some of the untruths used to sell “health food” products.
Next, once in awhile a neighbor or friend would declare something that seemed odd.
Years later, came the untruths taught at and in church “Six Consequences if Prop 8 Fails”(Prop 8 was a California initiative seeking to overturn the California Supreme Court ruling to allowing homosexual marriage.”
(Six consequences has not become true).
I’ve found Politifact and Factcheckorg to be very useful.
And,
Republicans didn’t need to go down this path they are on—ignoring the fatal flaws of their candidate. There are other potential Republican candidates that would’ve supported the policies they prefer without the amoral baggage of the current one. They are following him down into the sewer rather than finding the moral courage to say “enough is enough.” This cannot be the new normal.
Where is the red line for them?
‘There’s no conversation or dialog between leadership and membership, just justification and intimidation to follow without question’.
This is so frustrating. They simply DO NOT WANT TO KNOW what rank and file members’ concerns are. Any attempt to express a concern to FP must go through so many gate keepers that I am sure they never get the messages.
The reaction on Instagram to Sister Denison’s talk got their attention but the reaction was as expected. That would have been such an opportunity to create an official way for members to express concerns. I am sure the SCMC monitors sites such as these, but they don’t use what they learn to educate the Q15. After all, their purpose is to shut down communication not enable it.
DeNovo: “Mike Lee is not to be taken seriously” and YET, the Deseret News, the Church’s own sanctioned so-called newspaper DOES take him seriously and amplify his voice. The Church is very much in the Trump camp right now, even if the handful of remaining progressives and never-Trumpers within don’t want to admit it. Oaks and Nelson’s “religious liberty” campaign is nothing more than Project 2025 for Church members, and tactics like calling policy disagreements apostasy, then ramping up disciplinary councils are straight out of an authoritarian playbook. The goal posts are being moved, and now they want to get rid of those who dislike their partisan politics.
The problem with calls to civility in the age of lying is that it’s too partisan now for people to be reasonable about the lying. People think “THEIR side lies. My side occasionally makes mistakes, then gets crucified for it.” But isn’t the the same mindset behind “Not all truth is useful” and “Don’t criticize leaders, even when the criticism is true”? That’s just authoritarianism.
I wouldn’t continue posting, but I am receiving solicitations for Harris at the rate of once per hour. It’s her birthday! One more pledge and Trump is doomed! If you don’t contribute we lose Pennsylvania! They’re the kind of solicitations I get from Trump.
With $600 million in her campaign fund why does Harris desperately need my $20? Reading blog comments, even Democrats are getting sick of this flow of junk spam.
I am not sure trump is lying. I have recently concluded that he is deluded. Which is even more of a problem. If the most powerful person in the world is incapable of judging what is truth he is totally unable to be trusted.
Normally you would expect his advisors to point out the truth to him, but he also demands total loyalty, and will sack you if you disagree with him. I don’t know whether this is a mental condition? His method is being copied by right wing people throughout the world. I think Nelson does it too.
One problem is that his followers are willing to believe and repeat as fact his understanding of reality.
Another problem is that when these ideas, whether lies or delusions, are implemented there are real world consequences that are not what he expects. When that happens he will blame someone or something else.
Another problem is that these lies or delusions, are not uplifting but devisive and create a less stable country, and world.
So many of his delusions have very big consequences and you would think one of these would be enough to vote against him but no.
He will roll back efforts to combat climate change. Which is at a turning point, and may not be recoverable after 4 more years. Apart from more extreme weather for the world, no first world country will trade with a country that is not meeting its climate targets, so who will trade with trumps america?
His disrespect for the rule of law will be a disaster for America, but internationally too. Treaties can not just be ignored without consequences.
AND THE LIST GOES ON.
please don’t vote for chaos and delusion.
thhq: Personally, I object to political donations, from grassroots and Super PACs. Give them all an equal budget, a specific set of airtime opportunities, and then we vote. Money just corrupts things. Plus there was that Trump campaign donation scandal last time around where seniors didn’t know they were going to get a weekly auto-deduction, and someone’s fixed income got wiped out. Not cool. Elon Musk has apparently personally donated $140 million to Trump’s campaign. Small dollars or big dollars, I don’t like this method of determining who runs the country.
The points made about the media here are a reminder that the real prophet is Noam Chomsky.
I wince at calls for civility from right-wingers. These calls fall on deaf ears until you call out Trump for his nativist rhetoric against immigrants (which has led to massive harassment of Haitians in Springfield including bomb threats), Jan. 6, talking about how there will be a bloodbath if he doesn’t win, calling the Democrats the enemy within, and I’m not even sure that the comment section allows me enough space to write all of the examples of incivility by Trump. Stand up against Trump and Trumpism and then we can talk civility. For Democratic incivility amounts to a few exaggerations and course words. Trumpist incivility amounts to death threats, chaos, calls for civil war, and violence.
I listened to a speech this morning about the Dignity Index. It’s an attempt to tone down the contempt in the political rhetoric. It focuses on how we talk about people we disagree with. Our practice rounds involved lines from a movie and a tv show. I was left wondering how the Dignity Index applies to lies. If someone says there was massive election fraud in 2020 and Trump actually won, why is my response to that tone policed? Trump lost. I don’t have to respect the ‘opinion’ that Trump won. That isn’t an opinion. It’s a lie. It’s a lie that is weakening American society and tearing the country apart.
In one sphere, more civility and dignity in our discourse is a good thing. But if it requires treating outright lies and bigotry as just another opinion that deserves to be respected, then we’re being manipulated. The political party that is labeling queer and trans people as pedophiles is trying to claim that their bigotry and evil lies should be treated with respect. No. Just no.
Janey:
I’ve seen presentations on the Dignity Index with the founders of the organization and Tammy Pyfer, who used to be in the Herbert Administration in Utah and who I know. I like what they say. Like you, though, I wonder how to deal with someone who will not back down on a lie. Trump has imposed a new dynamic on our country we need to week out. You can see it in our conversations and how people are driving nationwide. Things have changed to how it’s all about “me” and who cares about “you.” How we get back to a more civil society is a challenge that I think the Dignity Index is attempting to deal with. It’s how four words in a tweet that is a lie take a lot more than 144 characters to deal with. The media doesn’t help. Free enterprise and it is only business don’t help either. Even religion has been redefined to exclude the teaching of dignity in favor of right-wing politics. It’s why the Ten Commandments are posted instead of the Beatitudes.
Trump has just said that people on the political left are “the enemy within” and will be rounded up by the army . I think that includes most of you. And still people support him.
Instereo – I’m going to post about the Dignity Index tomorrow. Since you’re already familiar with it, I look forward to seeing your participation in helping explain it. Then next week, I’m going to follow it up with a Reality Index (my invention). Also a Power Index. There are a lot of elements at play in political discussions. Both the Dignity Index and Disagree Better (another idea promoting more civility in discourse that doesn’t address outright lies) seem to assume that both speakers have comparable power and equality. That’s a faulty assumption.
Janey, the Dignity Index sounds like a noble effort. I also enjoy watching figures like David Pakman and Luke Beasley (both progressives) regularly and calmly engage Trump supporters to try to hear their side and have reasoned discussion. But I think that in the US in general public discourse is moving outside the Overton window, the abstract space that defines legitimate disagreement, and that there are some forms of engagement and discourse that simply are not possible.
What is wrong that Trump can say that people to the left of him are “the enemy within” and need to be rounded up and shot. Do his supporters not think that is not the society they want to live in? He has totally lost his grip on reality. Are his supporters the same people who were offended by deplorables? The electors are supposed to provide a check to make sure people like trump don’t get elected. Why is that not happening? Why do people believe what he says? I did see him referred to as the orange mesiah, could he have mesiah status among members?
Apparently his military advisor when he was president is reporting that he wanted the George Floyd protesters shot but was told no. Will he take no for an answer this time?
Among Evangelical Christians Trump is being referred to as the Davidic King. In other words they believe he is God’s chosen leader for America. They do revere him as a Messiah. The Pastors are preaching supportive talks about Trump each Sunday from the pulpit. He has visited many of these churches and spoken there. It’s a very strange cultural phenomenon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ws0GIKIoIY
“As a society we have been eroding our attention spans for decades until we only consume ideas through 12 second tiktok videos while eating our blizzards at the local Dairy Queen.”
Guys, I think Dave W is John Charity Spring.
thhq,
Kamala is very religious and has told us all about it. I imagine you’re getting your news from a place that doesn’t want you to know she’s religious. Her pastor is the reverend that is very involved with the NAACP that has befriended President Nelson and helped him put together some scholarships for black youth to go to Ghana. Here is one of a number of videos where she referred to her beliefs:
https://www.facebook.com/share/v/zH8K4om2cpoGMVYA/
It’s interesting to see my posts on this thread appear 10 days after I made them.
I have not heard Trump called a Davidic King lws. Where do you get your news?
I have heard Trump called Hitler by Harris today from dozens of media sources. Considering the number of Jewish members of his family, I find Kamala’s statement insensitive and boorish. As with her mocking of the students who shouted “Jesus is Lord” at her rally, and her refusal to attend the Al Smith dinner, she seems to be busy crafting an exclusive tent for her religion, whatever it is. No Jews, Catholics or Christians allowed. Mormons? Well, you know the answer to that.
Maybe you didn’t pay attention to every US media outlet covering these gaffes?
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