There was a recent Reddit post from a non-Mormon who attended a sacrament meeting. This specific person likes to attend various types of services, and he mentioned the contrast to other churches. His experience with the service itself was overall not great, although the people were so wonderful and nice, and such good examples of people living Christian lives that he said he would attend again. Here are some of the things he said about the service he attended:
The service itself was… dry as a bone. Truly the driest “sermon” I have ever experienced? 3 hymns, communion (what I understand is referred to as “sacrament,”) the bishop spoke a little, then another leader (deacon?) What threw me off initially was a lengthy town hall vibe vote at the beginning with many Mormon-ese terms like “quorum” (?) etc. going thru all the leadership from the local church level to the “president.” Frankly, this was off-putting to an outsider coming for spiritual content. The terminology like “president,” council etc. did not sound church appropriate but more like a business meeting.
The rest of the entire sermon was around “temple” which was not relatable either. No real discussion of any figure like God, Jesus Christ, angels, Joseph Smith, etc. or scripture. What goes on inside the temple was not described, only the importance of going and again NUMBERS like percentages of the local church who had endowment (another Mormon term.)
Overall, it left me wanting. Spiritual edification / growth = 0%. Felt like a club, not permeable.
It sounds like this was possibly a ward conference week or something because in the comments, it was discussed that the meeting involved a lot of what we would call “ward business,” sustainings and reading numbers. He also described the building itself:
The church building itself was interesting. When I step into a Catholic cathedral, Greek Orthodox church, or even pentecostal protestant space, I will pick up on a “feeling” there sometimes which could be described as mystical, a presence, spiritual, etc. I sometimes interpret this as the Holy Spirit or presence of God. In the LDS church I felt absolutely nothing different than an office. It had a stark environment.
Perhaps the consecrated temples (which the public are not allowed to enter) is where a Holy Ghost feeling is.
He only had one doctrinal quibble to share which kind of goes along with the rest of the “low church” issues that have already been described.
I actually am fine with many of the unique theological beliefs. I just wanted to share there was only one main thing that made me uncomfortable and that was clear water being used during sacrament. Jesus Christ himself instituted that procedure, and used wine. Any form of fruit of the vine would do, I’ve seen churches use grape juice which is fine, doesn’t need to be fermented if alcohol is the issue. But the form is important because it’s all about the precious blood. The power is in the blood. Blood is red. Jesus Christ said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.” Therefore, he would not go back on his word and change it from the wine to plain water. That feels sacrilegious to me. Probably after doing it this way for a few generations it’s now “the norm” for everyone. I could squint and imagine myself as a church member, but I would have a very difficult time throwing back plain water during communion. 🤷🏻♂️
Reading through this outsider perspective on the church services reminded me of a few things: bringing investigators to church meetings as a missionary, and bringing the French foreign exchange student who stayed with us to church. When you bring an outsider, you suddenly see things from a totally different perspective. It’s like the old joke about a new fish being introduced to the fishbowl. He swims around a bit, then says to the others “Hey, guys, how’s the water?” and one of the fish who’s been in the bowl forever says to another who’s also been there forever, “What the hell’s water?”
One story of investigators that I shared in my mission memoir was two young women who showed up with a chapel card they had received in a street contact. Since they came in after the meeting started, they were sitting alone toward the back of the chapel. When the sacrament tray was offered to them, they sheepishly started to take a piece of bread, not knowing how the “communion” worked when the senior missionary sitting on the stand jumped to his feet pointing at them and shouted “Sueltalo!” (Drop it!) He was concerned that letting anyone “unworthy” partake of it, which he believed included an investigator, was forbidden per the Book of Mormon, and that it was his priesthood duty to prevent it. They ran out in embarrassment and were never seen again, obviously. He and I had words after the meeting, and neither one of us left that discussion with a changed mind.
When the 14-year old French boy was staying with us as a foreign exchange student, we asked if he wanted to come to church, and he did. When he came downstairs, ready to go in a tee shirt and jeans, we figured he might feel uncomfortable and said people tended to dress up a bit more, and offered a button down shirt to him which he wore with his jeans and sneakers. He was definitely bewildered by the service (although his English was pretty good). He was impressed that our oldest two blessed and passed the communion, but overall, I think as a Catholic he was surprised by how dressed up the people were but how minimalist and business-like the meeting itself was. To those with a “high church” ritualistic service expectation, Mormon church services can seem soulless and devoid of meaning, like a town hall or business meeting. Even the lighting seems like a business office more than a church.
After reading this outsider’s perspective on Reddit, I remembered an old post I did years ago about the reviews given by outsiders as they visited church sites. They were often negative about the LDS-run sites (vs. the Community of Christ sites) because the historical content was often dubious when staffed by missionaries who weren’t given accurate information, and the focus was on proselytizing or manufacturing “testimony” experiences that made outsiders uncomfortable. But that’s a different type of experience because you are on vacation, going to see something historically or culturally significant. You aren’t seeking a spiritual church experience. If you go to the church service, I have to think you assume it’s going to be a spiritual or inspiring experience.
That led me to take a look at the Google reviews of the local ward buildings. What I found was kind of a joke. The majority of the reviews were super positive from ward members who had clearly been assigned to write these unrealistically positive reviews. Some of these were kind of ridiculous; I honestly think these hurt the church’s image rather than helping it because they just seem fake and weird. A few were from people who said “I have never even been here,” meaning that the Google algo sent them an invite to review, but they didn’t realize they had been close enough to the building for long enough that Google thought they attended (?) I think. A few said it was a good place to vote, meaning they didn’t actually attend a service.
For nearly all of the buildings, there were negative reviews stating that the phone number didn’t work, was a fax machine, or that nobody answered it or replied to messages. That seems like something the Church needs to address, and I can see why it happens: we don’t have an actual clergy. Everyone has a full time job elsewhere. Nobody is responsible. I bet the local leaders don’t even have the ability to fix these problems. Additionally, nobody is replying to the reviews, and I know as a small business owner that Google hates that. You have to respond to every review, both positive and negative. Most of the other churches are replying to their reviews, some to all of the reviews, and others just trying to address negative reviews.
Some of the reviews can be identified as coming from outsiders, though, and to me as a former missionary and a person who is interested in looking at things from a fresh perspective, these are the ones that are actually interesting. Here are a few:
Two stars. It was… OK. The service was really boring. More like a business meeting. The people are very fake and the way they try to relate to young people is really cringe. The speech given was vapid.
I mean, that seems fair. If church is boring to the members, the church blames the members. But what are you going to do if it’s boring to outsiders? Blame them? Good luck with that.
Two stars. I wish these people would stop spreading the fake book of mormon and really get to know the truth! They do everything pagan and have every excuse for it.
Oh, brother. Here’s a thought, obvious Evangelical lady, take a look in the mirror first.
One star. Not a church, just a house with cultists. Should be removed from Google maps.
See my previous comment. Also, I would love to set these last two commenters up on a date. They seem to be hearing the same sermons at their megachurch. This same ward clearly had some big time tea spilled six years ago as evidenced by a few related comments about a specific bishop breaking confidentiality regarding someone’s marriage. The drama!
One star. Very judge mental. What are the rules when your bishop breaks confidentiality, Does not have permission. Permission to talk to the others of the church about your issues. In my case bishop H broke confidentiality. I will not come back to your church. Will allow friends to learn, as well from this. So others don’t get victimized as well.
One star. Nice ward. Nice people. Bishop broke member confidentiality. Some very judgmental. You wonder why your BLITZ’S don’t work. Bishop H. If anyone would have understand. It would have been you. Stake President tells us u used to be a drug, alcohol booze hound. Now they have a white shirt and tie on you. And you pretend to play the churches game. When we met Bishop H. You didn’t act like a bishop. Swearing in your office. Getting in my face outside. Remember cell phones have cameras. Then you went behind my back and spoke to other church members behind my back. This is why your ward is so small. We see right through the members bull. Its not the church. Its the fake people. I bet you will never admit. Mr H. That you helped try and ruin a 18 year marrage. With a disable wife and 2 kids. You left members on the street to die Bishop H. And you call yourself a bishop. You want a review of me. Well this is me this is the facts.
I mean, honestly, this sounds kind of like reality TV. Interestingly, NOBODY replied to any of the comments, which is quite different than the other churches’ reviews I read. That’s probably an issue with not having any local ownership of the Google page. Thanks, correlation. That’s probably a missed opportunity.
One star: they hate children
That definitely does not sound like the average ward to me, which makes me wonder what these kids did!
Three stars: I would have gone higher, but sometimes the building smells like piss.
Now that’s my favorite review, although it’s got to be an actual member. What do you expect with member volunteers doing all the “cleaning” often assigning kids to the tasks with little or no oversight (as a family activity), using chemicals that appear to be 99.999% water?
So, fair’s fair, just for contrast, here are some of the reviews of other congregations in the area. This is a huge Evangelical church in the neighborhood:
One star: Parking at this church is a nightmare. The main worship building is huge and designed like a concert venue. The volume of the music being played inside is obnoxiously loud, they do offer free hearing protection. There’s no choir, no classic gospel to lift souls, just a band jamming the new age gospel music. The pastors pre record the sermons? Just looking at the huge screen for like 15 minutes. I guess the pastors must be to busy being funny and hip to give the congregation their time? Six service times a week, and you have to talk for like a whole 20 minutes, accounting for laughter and applause pauses. I spend more time trying to navigate the parking lot, then the pastors spend preaching His word. Most important if you bring your bearded dragon with you, CCV will turn you away.
That last sentence was *chef’s kiss*. Here’s another.
One star: When I first moved to the area I saw all these CCV stickers on cars and assumed it was a driving school, since everyone with them seemed to have not quite figured out how to drive, things like safely handling a vehicle, maintaining a safe and legal speed, indicating a lane change, obeying stop signs and red lights, all seemed like foreign concepts to these people. Now that I know it’s a church, I suggest they open a driving school for their members.
That’s kind of hilarious. There were quite a few negative reviews from former LGBTQ members, several complaints about lack of financial transparency and accusing the church of being too money-grubbing, and a LOT of complaints that the services were pre-recorded and played on a big screen which seemed done to save costs and keep staffing down while filling the coffers. Tons of complaints about parking (their campus is truly huge), and quite a few complaints that the pastors were extremely dismissive of Covid, despite people having suffered as relatives died.
Well, that’s it for my Church reviews roundup. Now it’s your turn.
- Have you brought an outsider to church? What was their perspective? Did it alert you to things you took for granted?
- How can the church make its services better for non-members?
- Have you ever written a review of the local ward? Have you read them?
- Share any church reviews in your area that are interesting.
Discuss.
Wheat & Tares 
This past Sunday, someone got up to talk who was there with the missionaries. He was very honest about where he is at and what he likes about the church. Then, he said he got the impression from the folks who talked before him, though, that our church cares more about the dead than the living and he didn’t really like that. (It had been pretty temple and family history focused before he got up.) The RS president couldn’t let that stand so got up after him and bore her testimony about the service she has seen in her calling. I’m sure he was swarmed afterwards, too, but we were sitting in the lobby and I don’t know for sure.
The RS president wasn’t wrong about all the service the women provide, but I’m not sure how effective her comments were at countering his impressions. Before her, everyone who used the word “serve” had done so in the context of serving in the temple.
We just don’t seem to realize how weird what we hear all the time appears to people who aren’t used to it.
Hawkgrrrl what you describe makes me happy to be an outsider. People would be shaming me for my habit of falling asleep, and everything described is powerfully sedative.
Old empty buildings stink, especially where it’s damp. It’s a mouldy smell. In towns like Aberdeen WA everything smells that way.
If I were to attend a sacrament meeting today I’d being doing so as an outsider because I’m definitely no longer in. When you stop believing, it all seems so absurd. (By “all” I don’t mean the sociality of it…I mean the beliefs).
This brings back memories of being a missionary and being extremely anxious about bringing investigators to church, since you just never knew what the members were going to say, such as an Easter Sunday that for some reason ended up being all about Joseph Smith, or time an older member told our investigator how nice it was to have a “Lamanite” attend church with them
On my mission (early 1990s Ukraine) the church was new and visitors were common, so it was standard practice to explain what’s going on in every meeting. I’ve never brought a visitor to church since my mission, but my missionary experience made me very aware of how our practices differ from other denominations and the insider jargon we use. Ever since then I’ve frequently felt like a lot of members lack self-awareness about this. Even when local leaders sometimes seem aware there are visitors and try to explain things, they often don’t do it particularly well. I think some meetings are uniquely ill-suited to being visited by outsiders, specifically ward and stake conferences. Maybe we should do away with them? I don’t think too many members’ feelings would be hurt.
I went and looked at Google reviews of my local chapel. I recognized a significant number of the reviewers, and they were the typical glowing reviews one might expect. It’s particularly weird to read about how welcoming the people are, because I know these are members effectively reviewing themselves. The most interesting review was the following:
“People here DO NOT control their children! It was kinda interesting though.”
Probably not wrong, but having been a self-conscious parent of unruly children at church I want to know how many kids are actually present at other churches this reviewer has attended.
I looked at the buildings near me and saw this one left 7 years ago: “I’m scared to walk past this building because I’m gay.”
Long, Slow, Deliberate, Clapping! Awesome, interesting, engaging – and even “Fun” article. Very well done. My compliments Hawkgrrrl. (And, not a ***damn word about Politics!) See how it’s done Dave B?!
About forty years ago my family had a French foreign exchange student/daughter stay with them. My parents were excited about bringing her to church with us. It was Fast Sunday. Bad idea. The usual suspects bore their “testimonies” if you could call them that. My sister and I squirmed throughout the entire meeting because it was an especially awkward and embarrassing situation for us to subject our French sister to this type of sanctioned craziness.
After church my parents eagerly asked her what she thought and were probably hoping that she’d undergone some sort of conversion experience. They definitely were NOT prepared for her answer. Elisabeth asked if it was normal in our church to talk over the pulpit about our health problems, vacations, family drama, etc. Then came the clincher. She asked if Mormons truly believed in God and Jesus because she’d noted that the only time they’d been mentioned was in the prayers and the hymns. If this was the Church of Jesus Christ why didn’t we talk about him and about God a lot more? Why did the congregation not stand up to sing or participate in any meaningful way? My poor parents were flabbergasted by her views on testimony meeting. What could they say because she spoke truth? Elisabeth also said that the building felt like a warehouse and not a church. It was not conducive to a spirit of welcome, worship and contemplation. And, did Mormon parents not believe in removing noisy, disruptive children from the meeting so that others could worship in a modicum of quiet? She recognized that little children can be noisy and wiggly, but was it even appropriate to force them to sit quietly for a long period of time that didn’t even allow members to stand up when they sang the hymns? The funny thing is that my sibs and I had asked my parents these same kinds of questions and had been told that we were being disrespectful and impertinent for voicing such “negative” thoughts.
As a professional musician I have been blessed to able to attend a variety of worship services of many faiths and have been able to compare them with sacrament meeting, stake conference and general conference. These meetings rate as the worst of the worst in terms of the participation of the congregation and in the quality of the talks. The fact that it’s called sacrament MEETING and not a worship service says it all. Worship is NOT sitting like a bump on a log and mumbling through the hymns like a closet full of mice. The talks were somewhat better back in the day before the mandate came out that talks had to be regurgitated conference talks. Ditto for hymn singing back when there was a dedicated time in Sunday School (back before we moved to the 3 hour block) and then when we had time to learn new hymns between sacrament meeting and Sunday School. It is my personal opinion that when we strip away beauty and learning/singing the hymns and other artistic forms of worship we contribute to a deadening of the soul. Church leaders are so concerned about bringing in new converts to the church, but they are also so conditioned to accept the fact that most church meetings are deathly boring and not conducive to engaging with the Holy Spirit that they will probably never change the format for this or any other church meeting. They’re doing themselves no favors by doing so.
Our local building was built in 1971. The pipes have burst enough times without carpet being replaced that the entire building does smell like pee. Also, being built in 1971, the entire building is dark brown brick throughout and is just plain ugly. Apparently our stake asked the area leaders to ask the general leaders when we can get a new building now that it’s more than 50 years old. We were told SLC expects its buildings to last 100 years. So pee-smell for life.
Our high school is next to the LDS church and another church. Both churches allow portions of their parking lots to be for student parking. It’s a great use of space not needed otherwise and I do appreciate these two churches approving this.
I grew up as a teetotaler, and stayed that way until our kids were in high school. In 2000 I was transferred to Bordeaux, France for 15 months. That’s when my teetotaling ended. Living in French culture was more important than living in a self-imposed American cultural bubble.
The Mormons take teetotaling to extremes. Why? Will it ever change? I enjoy a trip to Fiiz for a sugar rush when I’m in the Mormon belt, but I also enjoy drinking a Picon at a Basque restaurant a couple miles away. C’est normale. Jesus drank wine, why not me?
When I was in Colombia I discovered Cruz bar chocolate. It makes the best hot cocoa I’ve ever drunk. The coffee is good too, but you can get good coffee anywhere. I’ve never felt any shame drinking hot beverages.
I have been reading and thinking about the story of Samuel the Lamanite in preparation for our next Gospel Doctrine lesson. I’ve been fascinated to read it through the lens of the prophetic voice being an “outsider”. The voice of reason and transcendent awareness is the “third eye” or what has been called the mind’s eye. In context of Samuel the Lamanite, once again we see how difficult it is for us humans to open ourselves to a life of observation. Humility is obscured by our insistence that we are “right” and our resistance to anyone challenging that assertion. Our LDS tradition is, for the most part, more interested in insulating against constructive criticism and promoting an environment of persistent validation. Samuel attempts to share his observations, which are forthrightly rejected with violence in effort to protect the status quo. It’s not that the Nephites are rejecting righteousness, it’s that they believe they are, and their marvelous riches are proof. They are blind to their distorted belief system, and worse, they prefer to remain blind. In the end, I think Samuel is not only testifying of the historical and literal Christ, but witnessing that his spirit is, in fact, not present in what he sees. The Nephites want nothing to do with his message, similar to the adamant opposition to Dr Martin Luther King jrs. message of equality and the accompanying ERA movement. It’s obvious in hindsight to see that King Jr was an “outsider”, a voice from the opposing set of “ites”, challenging the righteousness of the current system, and many and maybe predominantly, the Christian world lead the opposition. If our LDS church really wants to make some progress, and this is true for me personally as well, it might be best to seek the unadulterated advice of an “outsider”.
Here’s a pilot program suggestion: Declare one Sunday a month a “Special Visitor’s Day” where the talks are all about Jesus and love, and the lesson is upbeat, biblical, and not judgmental or Mormonish.
Then expand that to two Sundays a month. Eventually make it every Sunday of the month. Voila, we’re Christians and visitors will enjoy LDS services.
Sometimes I’ll just be minding my own business, doing some mundane thing or other, and it will hit me like a wave of sweet ocean air. I breathe a long sigh of relief as I randomly remember…
…I never have to go to Stake Conference again.
I took an outsider, my nevermo teenage daughter, to a fast and testimony meeting to see her cousin blessed. After several preschoolers got up to bear their testimonies, my daughter whispered to me, “Mom, these kids are so brainwashed.” I recently went to a Community of Christ Sunday service, so after reading this post, I looked at their reviews which were universally positive. Most people mentioned the warm and welcoming leadership and congregation. Although I didn’t review it on line, my experience there was five stars. I was deeply touched by the meeting, the hymns and the message of inclusion to the many diverse members. I loved seeing women in charge, women called to give priesthood blessings to members, and I loved that I didn’t have to wear “Sunday” clothes (which I always hated wearing.) I liked the format which included a community sharing time when members of the congregation could tell something about their lives that was challenging or worth celebrating. There was a story time for the children, and one of the hymns was something to the effect that “All are Welcome Here.” There were trans kids in the congregation, gay couples, polyamorous couples, and all were truly loved and welcomed. It was the most spiritual sustenance that this crusty old atheist has experienced in a chapel for a long, long time. I went out to my car after the meeting and cried a bit, feeling both happiness and frustration. I was happy to have a religious experience that felt loving, positive and affirming, and I felt sad that my experience in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was not like that when I was a member.
Dave B: Regarding your suggestion, a friend of mine said that in a recent relief society the entire lesson was focused on chastising the women about garment-wearing, which she found incredibly off-putting. She also was aware that there were women present who hadn’t been to the temple, so this entire diatribe was not even for them, and (as she opined) where was the actual talking about Jesus? Less and less common given the doubling down on ticky-tack rules that have no bearing on one’s discipleship.
Hawkgrrrl asked: ” How can the church make its services better for non-members?” Start with making its services better for attending members. No amount of pressure has moved me to invite a friend or neighbor. Not because I am ashamed of Christ, but because He is marginally mentioned as we hear “book reports” on one or another conference talk. Not much to inspire in content, delivery, music, or the stark surroundings.
This post and the comments make me wonder why some of the so-called “outsiders” to Mormonism have decided to hang out on a blog like Wheat and Tares? Not in a judgemental way, I appreciate the diverse ideas, but in a genuinely curious way.
Observant Mormons of all denominations…Non-observant Mormons…Full-blown ex-Mormons. Scholars of Mormonism…all of those groups have a more obvious connection to a site like this. For those who don’t have some current or prior personal connection to Mormonism, what brought you here and prompted you to stick around?
You know how some churches have chapels that are just open a lot of the time and when there isn’t a service going on you can just go and sit? I love that. When I’ve toured cathedrals and minsters in Europe I love to just sit and contemplate. It’s like you can hear the hopes and worries of ages past echoing off the vaulted ceilings and stained glass.
In our chapels when there’s not a sacrament meeting or class or primary program rehearsal going on, you’re just like, not supposed to be in there, right? Have you ever seen anyone just hanging out in a chapel pew praying by themself? Somebody would probably come check on them and ask them to move along.
We sit and contemplate in the Celestial Room, I suppose, but wouldn’t it be nice to have a space in our ward buildings that was made for prayer, study, and contemplation? Maybe with some nice artwork and statues? Lord knows the church can afford it. But if we make the chapels too nice how will we motivate people to go the fancy VIP members only temples?
Several reasons Pirate. The dialectic. My daughter and her Mormon and ex-Mormon friends. The fascinating history. Have you been to Liberty, Far West, Mormon Station, Carson Pass, Cumorah and Nauvoo? I’ve gone out of my way to see all those over the years. Finally, seeing how Mormonism operates as a religion. There’s no site quite like this one that I’ve found. I wandered in by accident, looking for information on Sydney Rigdon. The longer I stay the more I learn.
There were no interesting Google reviews of my local chapel. However, while searching for my chapel’s reviews, I first went to Google Maps to locate my chapel. I noticed that my chapel’s icon on Google Maps now depicts a standard Christian cross instead of the angel Moroni icon that used to be used for LDS chapels on Google Maps. I had read about a year ago that the Church had taken action to replace the angel Moroni icon with the cross icon, but this is the first time I’d actually seen it on Google Maps.
I would not invite an outsider to attend my local church services unless they very directly asked to accompany me, and even then, I’d be hesitant. Yes, the services are often boring and uninspiring, but first and foremost, I’d just be embarrassed to introduce outsiders to an organization that shuns LGBTQ people and doesn’t treat women equally.
I’m convinced that in any given ward, even in the Mormon Corridor where wards are larger, that there is only a very small handful of people that have the time, skills, knowledge, and desire to give a good talk or present a useful lesson, and a lot of the these members aren’t even the people called to be teachers or give talks more frequently. I believe that the rest of the members of any given ward (the vast majority)–no matter what training the Church could provide them–simply are never going to be very good speakers or teachers. Now, there is a sense of community that is developed by allowing all ward members to participate, but it seems like we’re leaning too hard into the idea that “everyone is a good speaker and teacher”. Perhaps we need to call the best speakers/teachers in the stake to prepare good talks/lessons and rotate through all the wards in the stake. I certainly wouldn’t be disappointed by replacing the high councilor’s talk each month with a talk by somebody who could actually give a good talk. Perhaps we need to have video lessons streamed into the chapels certain Sundays where good teachers give well prepared lessons–but I’m afraid if this was run by Church HQ that the lessons would be horribly bland after passing through correlation.
My daughter is serving a mission in a foreign (non-Christian) country. She has mentioned a number of times how nervous she is about inviting people to Church meetings. She has really noticed that 2nd hour lessons seem to be devoted to things like why white shirts and ties are mandatory apparel for males attending Church, why members should not get married to people of other races, what is the “true” way to calculate tithing payments, stories about how dead people have “communicated” with ward members to nudge them to do their “temple work”, why masturbation is a terrible sin (I’m not joking), etc. Most 2nd hour lessons that she goes to have very little to do with the basic gospel that she is trying to teach: God, Jesus, love, faith, hope, charity, etc. Instead, the focus is on the fringe, weird Mormon stuff that I, and my daughter, would like to see the Church back away from. The situation in this foreign country is especially difficult since so many of the members are first generation members with non-Christian backgrounds that they really don’t know what the core of the gospel is (and the lack of focus on the core is likely one reason that so many members there become inactive–it’s only the ones who love Mormon minutiae that tend to stick around).
@hawkgrrrl, it’s too bad your friend hasn’t been listening to the new doctrine that has materialized out of thin air that the garment is Jesus. Doesn’t she know that lessons about garments really are lessons about Jesus? I’m sure the women that hadn’t been to the temple were just dying to get their recommends so that they, too, could wrap themselves up in the love of Jesus for the rest of their lives while they struggle to find clothes they enjoy wearing that are also compatible with Jesus and while Jesus makes them swelter in hot weather.
You might be curious what a non-Mormon would do in Nauvoo. I was on a business trip touring a nearby recycled paper mill with another guy in the 1980’s. For entertainment we went to a Mark Twain festival in nearby Hannibal MO, and sat at a picnic table drinking Old Nauvoo wine (very bad) with cheese and crackers. Nauvoo was surprising for the absence of LDS, most everything owned and operated by RLDS. It was not Williamsburg, but it was sort of interesting.
Honestly I couldn’t even fathom inviting a non-member friend to church. Only on the condition that they know that I’m not a believer and that I attend to keep peace with my wife. Maybe if they were curious, I would say that they could come and check it out. But even then, I wouldn’t want anyone “descending” on them and making them some sort of project. Even to satisfy curiosity, I would advise them to just show up at a sacrament meeting without me. Or maybe I could go with them, but to a meetinghouse where I wasn’t known.
There is a reason that the church has its mission program structured the way it is. Missionaries are to do the grunt work of forcing the issue of religion onto outsiders. They are assigned to go places where they don’t know anyone and where they can put people into uncomfortable situations without burning a friendship.
For those who are anonymous and wish to stay that way, be careful about describing reviews from your nearest Chapel.
This is a multibillion organization with a dedicated “Strengthening Church Members Committee.”
DaveB wrote:
“Declare one Sunday a month a “Special Visitor’s Day” where the talks are all about Jesus and love, and the lesson is upbeat, biblical, and not judgmental or Mormonish.”
This made me wonder, why? In particular, what would be the point of a non-judgmental religion? The basic premise of God is that God has rules and will make a judgment.
The simple, pure, Christian message is that we all sin and that without Jesus and without our repentance we are condemned to suffer for our sins. The love of Christ is that he sacrificed his life to save our souls. To speak of Jesus’ love without the context of our sin and spiritual purgatory is to miss the point of it all.
There is no greater message of Hope and Love than the one Christianity offers. But this message requires the context of us understanding our sinful state and our absolute desperate situation to do anything about it.
So much of modern Christianity fails to provide the context, lest people feel judged and condemned. Yet, without the realization one is condemned, one’s appreciation for Jesus is limited.
The king Benjamin sermon in the Book of Mormon lays out clearly these principles. The idea that it is godly to serve others is a true teaching from that sermon. It is, however, just a part of a greater message. Too much of modern Christianity is focused on giving out snacks and not delivering the whole sermon, including the hard parts. But it is the hard parts that make the punchline so beautiful.
——— About LDS meetings ——
What distinguishes the LDS Sunday service is that it is wholly designed and intended for the active member. The most LDS specific things being the meeting is conducted by a lay minister with zero real theological training and the speakers are usually members of the local congregation, again who have no real theological training.
What an outsider sees at an LDS service will depend largely on what the outsider expects to see at “church”. Those familiar with professional run services will often be underwhelmed. Those expecting a high-energy event will be underwhelmed. Those expecting a certain level of sophistication of message will be underwhelmed.
Yet those familiar with LDS culture and its Sunday meetings will experience what they expected. And the most amazing thing is they can have this experience on any given Sunday at any LDS chapel in the world.
Why? Because the LDS approach to Sunday service trains the membership to participate and be involved in conducting, giving talks and teaching others. LDS church is a wholly amateur production. That is what makes it underwhelming to the outsider but special to the active member.
My brother in law’s mother used to work in maternity. She had a Mormon woman about to deliver who would not remove her underwear. She told her that she wasn’t wearing it to get where she was and she’d better shed it pronto.
So…never mind the reviews- the Whitehorse Yukon Territory church in my country is gorgeous!! :O
I sure hope the story of that building and its members has been preserved by some enterprising Mormon Studies history buffs!
109 Wickstrom Rd, Whitehorse, YT Y1A 6N2
My daughter was friends with a homeless girl in high school. Instead of giving her nice clothes for church my daughter dressed down and wore tshirts and shorts to church. I never understood why we insist on dressing up for everyday worship services.
At both Liberty Jail and Cumorah the LDS docents were elderly couples wearing black funeral clothes. They were nice but smelled of mothballs. Cumorah was decorated with mannequins.
Amen A Disciple.
I love the plain words of truth and the pure testimony of the lay members–with the coos and squawks of little children in the background.
My expectation for Cumorah is more like Hippie Hill in Frisco in 1967. Joseph and Emma were dirt poor religious crazies, speaking in tongues and unbridled by rigid doctrines. It was their Summer Of Love.
All that changed. But out of respect for history Cumorah should be covered with trails and holes to inspect.
thhq, my grandmother bragged that all 12 of her children were conceived THROUGH the garment, and born THROUGH the garment. The old style had an open crotch because they were one piece, with no pulling down bottoms to pee. So, maybe your mother was wrong and she got pregnant while wearing garments like my grandmother. A little context, my grandmother also did not take them all the way off to bathe either. They were never all the way off of her body. Her foot would be in a dirty pair while the other foot went in the clean pair.
but we never were a cult.
And, Disciple, there is a huge difference between Jesus is going to judge us and each and every member thinking that it is their job to judge. Nobody should be judging, even Mormon Bishops and it is attitudes like yours that has ruined all Christianity in Mormonism. Jesus will judge with total love and total understanding. Can you do that? Then you should not be judging others. Leave that to Jesus.
I agree that we need to be much more visitor focused and much more focused on Jesus and let all the other weird Mormon stuff go. Or just keep in out of worship services…oh, that’s right. Mormons don’t have worship services. THAT is the problem. We need to start actually worshipping Jesus and stop worshipping general authorities. Maybe have worship service, then after we could have a “nag the members meeting” where we talk about temple, tithing, and quote GAs. Make that second meeting what sacrament meeting is now. Oh, you don’t want another meeting? Well don’t worry, no one would go to the one that is like sacrament meeting is now.
@Anna
I can only imagine what your face would have been like after your Granny told you that hahaha!
Pretty sure I made that same face just now! Not that some of my generation of Mormon has much to brag about in terms awkward conception stories-
There will be ‘soaking’ tales shared by grannies some day…
Canadian Dude,
I don’t find Anna’s Grandma’s comments at all surprising, and I doubt she was surprised either. This was a normal way to see and handle the garment at an earlier time. Many women were taught to handle their garments this way by women workers in the temple.
I remember being totally shocked in my temple prep class in college before my wedding when the man teaching the class said that sex was about pleasing your partner and having a good time without your garments (early 90s).
I remember my parents in the late 70s talking about the new order to bishops to keep their conversation out of the bedroom. Before then couples had to discuss not us6contraception, sexual positions, and for women, how to wear your garments next to your skin at all times while still keeping the garment clean of menstrual blood (a bishop on my mission had discussed this with several women in the ward).
As sad as it seems, a lot of this stuff wasn’t surprising. It was just where our Mormon culture was at the time.
We have a Community of Christ CHURCH down the street. It has a narthax with greeters and a sign welcoming visitors outside. It’s completely different from the forbidding LDS fortress.
The difference is Emma Smith. Nothing but the Bible and the Book of Mormon for HER church.
Brad D – This is so true: “There is a reason that the church has its mission program structured the way it is. Missionaries are to do the grunt work of forcing the issue of religion onto outsiders. They are assigned to go places where they don’t know anyone and where they can put people into uncomfortable situations without burning a friendship.”
I can’t stop laughing. Yeah, exactly. Being a member missionary is just too much risk.
lws329 is correct, wearing garments *all* the time was how they did it for that generation. My husband’s grandmother was the same way, just wasn’t so proud that her husband had never seen or touched her naked. But she was strict for her generation. My grandmother was older, she just had babies for ever, huge age difference between my oldest and youngest uncles, and my dad was toward the end, then waited till 30 to marry and I am a middle child. So you could fit an extra generation between myself as a boomer and my grandmother. This isn’t the WWII generation, but born toward the end of polygamy. 1880s.
@lws329 @Anna
Totally agree. Totally still weird.
The garment obsession aside, what kid (adult or otherwise) wants the mental image of grandpa knocking up* grandma??
Canadian Dude, that wasn’t the only way my grandfather knocked up, down, and around my grandmother. He was an abusive jerk. More traumatic by far was one day when I was about 11, my grandmother was visiting and her and my mother got talking around the kitchen table. My grandmother went into some detail about abuse, that had me pretty horrified, then instead of cursing his rotten soul to heck, she sighed, looked at the ring she wore with a miniature picture of him and said how she couldn’t wait to be with her Almie (affectionate for Alma) again. Puke.
Next weekend we’ll be in Abbotsford for MCC World Relief. We’ve gone to the MCC fall festivals for years, buying Amish quilts in Indiana and eating sausage in Oregon. It started as Ukraine relief in the 1920’s. It’s an effective outreach to a wide community, especially for the food.
https://www.mccfestival.com/eat
Does LDS do anything like this? As an outsider I’d consider it if I knew about it and it was close by.
I would go out of my way to eat funeral potatoes and Utah scones for a good cause. Heaven knows I’ve eaten enough Fisher fair scones. I’m ready for something new.
I heard from someone I work with who lives close to the SLC Federal Heights church that President Hinckley invited the 60 Minutes crew to that he called up his son (the local stake president) and asked him who was speaking at church tomorrow. Richard reminded him that it was a first Sunday, so, testimony meeting. Gordon told him to get a good speaker.
GBH did not want 60 Minutes to come to an unscripted Mormon service.
thhq – I’d like some of that poutine. A lot of the offerings were unfamiliar to me. I only have eaten poutine bc of visiting a relative in the Midwest. That’s a long-standing tradition for a cause they believe in. I suspect that with roots that deep, current events in Ukraine hit hard. I had to click on the About MCC link, then scroll way down to find out what MCC stands for.
Canadian Dude – super cool peek at the YT chapel on Google Earth. Roofs look like they can support a lot of snow. I wish there someone had placed photos on Street View. I guess I’ll just have to go there myself.
thhq: “The difference is Emma Smith. Nothing but the Bible and the Book of Mormon for HER church.”
At least in my Community of Christ congregation it’s more like “the Bible and Sections 160-165 of the Doctrine and Covenants.” Can’t remember the last mention of Joseph Smith, and the Book of Mormon is almost as rare.
thhq: “The difference is Emma Smith. Nothing but the Bible and the Book of Mormon for HER church.”
At least in my Community of Christ congregation it’s more like “the Bible and Sections 160-165 of the Doctrine and Covenants.” Can’t remember the last mention of Joseph Smith, and the Book of Mormon is almost as rare.
Rich Brown, lucky you to only have the Bible and the CoC’s D&C chapters. Good for Emma Smith and her sons for doing away with the BoM and PoGP. What exactly is covered in Sections 160-165? Does the CoC still have section 104 or whatever number it is where Joseph Smith says that the church doesn’t practice polygamy even though he had several wives at the time it as published?
I wish that the Brighamite branch of the church would do away with the BoM. So many people have serious trouble with the Q15’s insistence that it is factual history. For any serious reader it presents many more questions than it answers. Even when I was young (ages 8-12) I realized that there were too many things about it that didn’t make sense. The Nephi and Laban debacle, the curse of the dark skin, trinitarian doctrine and the doctrine of the godhead in the same book, massive and unreal numbers being killed in nearly every battle, very few relatable people in that the righteous leaders are practically like Superman while the bad leaders are much more like Hitler or Putin, the glaring lack of women, especially women who are named, a cruel Jesus who destroys most of the people (including innocent children) with earthquakes, tornadoes, etc after his crucifixion, and the word for word copying from the Bible before there was such a thing along with copying the errors from the KJV, golden plates that would’ve weighed over 100 lbs plus the fact that books were written on rolls of parchment and not in book form until long after 400 AD and much more. Yes, the Bible is problematic too but definitely NOT to the degree that the BoM is.
Wayfaring Stranger:
Keep in mind the CofC still considers the BofM inspired scripture, although there’s no official statement beyond that. A majority of members now consider it 19th century religious fiction or ignore it entirely. The PofGP has never been accepted as scripture. As for the D&C, the LDS Section 132 has never been part of the RLDS/CofC editions. Section numbering of the ones we share with LDS may be different. Although the D&C in its entirety is considered scripture, emphasis these days is primarily on those sections included since 2000, during presidencies of Grant McMurray and Steve Veazey. Finally, I’m happy to report there is an online searchable D&C available for Community of Christ.
https://cofchrist.org/doctrine-and-covenants/
Emma was strongly linked to BOM right from the start, so it’s interesting that it has faded away over 150 years. The first time I was in an RLDS in the 1970’s they had copies of Hal Lindsay’s Late Great Planet Earth displayed, which seemed unusual to me.