Modern Mormon feminism proclaims a support of all women’s choices: do you want to be an astronaut? a tax preparer? a mother? a full-time homemaker? have a big family? a small family? a working mom with a stay-at-home dad family? yes? More power to you!
So how and why, praytell, is not only the entire internet but also most Mormon feminists up in arms over the recent London Times profile of famous influencer Hannah Neeleman, of Ballerina Farm fame (and daughter-in-law of the founder of Jet Blue $)? The problem with Ballerina Farm to Mormon feminists is not that she is a stay-at-home mom, nor that she chooses to have a large family, or that she chooses to participate in beauty pageants mere weeks after giving birth while nursing backstage (go mama!); many of us are in her similar sahm boat and the water tends to be rocky but fine. Most of us had very emotional reactions to the article because it *appears* she never developed a sense of autonomy — and was very seemingly presssssured into consenting to her life.
Our concerns overlap a lot of what many secular feminists have expressed — although many in “the world” are more critical of a chosen domestic life. And we should state that plainly: many women with large Mormon families are looked down on and treated poorly by an increasingly secular and feminist world. Most mothers in the US have to work to help their families make ends meet. It is because of this thankless tension that the benevolent LDS patriarchy chooses to pedistalize these women and this labor. It is the MOST glorious, MOST closest to heaven, MOST angelic, MOST spiritual and holy, etc. It’s also true in our community there’s an increasing number of young Mormon women who have not and will not have the opportunity to bear children. We have swathes of single and childless women in the church. We cannot tell LDS wives and mothers that theirs is the foreordained only god-given purpose to Mormon women’s lives anymore.
That is a problem and tension Mormon feminists hold: we want to honor the work of our foremothers – care work is hard work and you can be hard-pressed to find folks valuing it appropriately (patriarchy sucks outside of the church too—in fact how hard it is pursuing work and goals as a mother in the US figures prominently in these dynamics). It’s unpaid work, but for those of us who have been through it we know deeply in our bones it is important, back- and at times sanity-breaking work (oh hi post-partum depression that jumpscared me after having 3 kids in 21 months, fancy meeting you here!). But we *must* learn to value the accomplishments and contributions that all Mormon women make in the building of the “kingdom of God.” Our current cultural freak-outs over Mothers’ Days show how impossible a task this is — if we mention the contributions of single and childless women on Mother’s Day (not by using the all women are mothers line) and then now mothers who already feel thankless and ignored have to SHARE THEIR DAY WITH SINGLE WOMEN TOO??!! oh Baby Jesus take the wheel. This is our task. We must hold these tensions. We must honor and value each other.
As a reminder from mere months ago: Mormon Feminism in the year of our Lord 2k24 is working out these tensions apparently online (mostly IG I think?), a lot of which has happened on the LDS Church’s own accounts earlier this year. Where many of us expressed frustrations at the cultural pressures that played into us choosing the trad-wife life, because we were often and explicitly told to do so over the pulpit by men who ~speak for God. Then they call as General RS Presidenta woman who was a full-time lawyer her whole life and had full-time nannies for her kids, and praised her for being obedient and following the prophets. Now, legions of Mormon women are both grateful for her example and increasingly frustrated with the state of our lives due to the trad-wife pressure we succumbed to from our church that apparently wasn’t all that necessary in the first place.
Slight background about TradWife movement: I’m sure dissertations could be written about the religiopolitical motivations driving it, but most of these online influencers are unsurprisingly Christian and explicitly endorse traditional gender roles INCLUDING submission to their husbands. Know for now that the Neelemans don’t embrace the label or community of them and maintain an air of neutrality (a very lucrative air that enables brilliant marketing across the spectrum) about it all, but she is often seen as the “Queen” of the movement. Also, many trad wife influencers have since come out of their marriages and influencer jobs divorced with stories of abuse. (The Internet’s response: SHOCKER!) The trad-wife movement isn’t happening in a vacuum, but when the VP candidate on the GOP ticket is publicly talking about changing laws so childless women have less influence at the polls.
So back to dear Hannah Neeleman and her infamous profile. The author of the profile obviously had a secular feminist bias … and a caveat here: we will never know how this day truly unfolded to those who experienced it. This was what one outside woman experienced and it was a snapshot of one day. I feel she came to Utah to see what is underneath the trad wife movement, the reporter specifically states she wants to ask Hannah about the backlash to her “Pageantgate”–which Hannah has maintained conspicuous and neutral silence about. Unfortunately, it seems Daniel Neeleman gave her a full show of what *appeared* to her a sexist benevolent patriarchal Mormon man. To many of us who have attended the BYUs, we knew (and/or dated) men like this, they were a dime a dozen in our wards and classes. In fact, I would say my husband and I were originally both supporters of this ideal Mormon family with “co-presidents” but with separate roles where the wife defers to the “head of the family.” We changed and grew over the last 20 years. And while we have, off and on, lived the stay-at-home-mom life of four kids …. the last twelve years happened while I concurrently developed my own voice and sense of autonomy through feminism. It does not *appear* a similar transformation has occurred at Ballerina Farm. A short summary of the red flags waving wildly in the (biased) profile:
- “Back then I thought we should date for a year [before marriage],” she continues. “So I could finish school and whatever. And Daniel was, like, ‘It’s not going to work, we’ve got to get married now.’ ” After a month they were engaged. Two months after that they were married, moving into an apartment Daniel rented on the Upper West Side. And three months after that she was pregnant, the first Juilliard undergraduate to be expecting “in modern history”.
- “Well, I gave up dance, which was hard. You give up a piece of yourself. And Daniel gave up his career ambitions.” I look out at the vastness and don’t totally agree. Daniel wanted to live in the great western wilds, so they did; he wanted to farm, so they do; he likes date nights once a week, so they go (they have a babysitter on those evenings); he didn’t want nannies in the house, so there aren’t any. The only space earmarked to be Neeleman’s own — a small barn she wanted to convert into a ballet studio — ended up becoming the kids’ schoolroom.
- They have a cleaner but no childcare; Neeleman does all the food shopping — kids in tow — and cooks from scratch (they “don’t do” ready meals). Despite the more traditional aspects of their relationship, Daniel is a hands-on father, taking the kids out to the farm and doing all the laundry. The children appear to look after each other quite well too — there are so many that they seem to have become an almost self-sustaining entity. Still, Daniel says, Neeleman sometimes gets so ill from exhaustion that she can’t get out of bed for a week.
- She also gave birth to them without pain relief. None at all? She shakes her head. Why? “I don’t know, I just have never loved taking it.” She stops herself. “Except with Martha — I was two weeks overdue and she was 10lb and Daniel wasn’t with me … ” She lowers her voice. Daniel is currently out of the room taking a phone call. “So I got an epidural. And it was an amazing experience.” Where was Daniel that day? “It was shipping day [for the meat boxes] and he was manning the crew.” But the epidural was kind of great? She pauses — and smiles. “It was kinda great.”
- Do you — I pause and look at her fixedly — plan pregnancies? “No,” Daniel says. “When he says no,” Neeleman responds gently, “it’s very much a matter of prayer for me. I’m, like, ‘God, is it time to bring another one to the Earth?’ And I’ve never been told no.” “But for whatever reason it’s exactly nine months [after a baby] that she’s ready for the next one,” he says. “It’s definitely a matter of prayer,” she says. “It’s a matter of prayer but somehow it’s exactly nine months,” he says.
My first impression was related to my experience: I have lupus and have been so exhausted I couldn’t lift my arms to pour milk. It takes days of rest to recover. This type of exhaustion is not normal and should not be acceptable. If my husband had enough funds we would hire necessary help so THIS WOULD NOT HAPPEN, EVER. They have many employees to cosplay 8 Kids and Little House on the Prairie with all their money: THEY NEED MORE. (because this is not how rural farmers in Rexburg Idaho live, this life requires money $$$ to maintain the aesthetic, another rural commenter called it a very expensive form of theater.)
Most of the internet is shocked by the blatant patriarchy and… jerkiness of this? The world is not used to benevolent patriarchs like this. Daniel Neeleman is probably on the number 1 most hated American men list at the moment: just Google “Ballerina Farm” on Twitter or TikTok for a look yourself. It’s notable that there’s a growing backlash to the original backlash of the article — as with all controversial internet controversies.
After sleeping on it I wanted to take a step back and I agreed with other commenters: we need to give folks some grace and acknowledge we don’t know these people or their lives based on this one article. I can identify with having my kids and husband around and feeling like I can’t get a word in edgewise. You’ll have to hear my unfiltered thoughts on social media, a practice I don’t think fits Ballerina Farm’s branding! And the reason for that is because she is a professional influencer–she’s more of a celebrity than if she’d stayed with just dancing. Of course she has some type of autonomy in how she is presented online. I later wondered online “Valid convo to have: who do you think erased Hannah Neeleman’s voice more: husband Daniel, reporter, herself, or a combination?” I had prepared myself to chalk the Times interview to a one-off, a bit upset that I will never know the truth.
And then the next day, low and behold, this video goes viral. I will tell you this: forget the article completely. If I had been asking for a trip to Greece for my birthday and you filmed me (even as a joke) opening an unwrapped gift of an egg apron (which I’m sure she likes just fine for gathering eggs—I want one of those cool $80 Hedley & Bennet aprons IG keeps pitching to me–the issue is not the apron) and then you rudely say “you’re welcome” because I was insufficiently grateful to you …. Lord Baby Jesus they would never be able to find your body.
I showed my moderate-conservative, still benevolent-patriarchal-but-baby-feminist husband this video last night. He was shocked. That video on it’s own isn’t great.
The *seeming* Daniel-Neeleman-type LDS patriarchs were taught to be so by their fathers and their fathers’ fathers. It’s the “I just kept pursuing her until she finally gave in and said yes” vibes we don’t want for our daughters. And these dynamics won’t fly much longer, folks. To LDS young women: Be domestic. Knit, sew, and bake! Have your babies. (Have a way to escape, if necessary!) In fact, these days most women don’t have to “give up on their dreams,” most women if they have kids find some way to be mother AND ________. But by God do not stand to be treated like this by men in your life (what the video *appears* to show).
PS This is bad PR for the LDS church. The Neelemans were probably the shining jewel on their crown of LDS influencers. Their membership is featuring prominently in online discourse.
For an alternate pop-culture take on the “Free Hannah” response to the ~obviously biased article: LDS Changemakers on IG pointed out the Pop Apologists podcast covers a little bit of debunking of the view that was presented here: “is ballerina farm really ballerina prisoner? 🩰 ⛓️ pop apologists investigates 🕵🏼♀️🕵🏼♀️”

Man, my heart just bleeds for her.
Also, I’m single and I don’t want to be included in Mothers Day (the free chocolate is nice). Being told from birth that my whole purpose here on the earth is to be a wife and mother only to find myself in my 40s not being either and people constantly telling me that I’m a mother to my nephews, as if my whole existence as a woman is only how I can be a mother. Ugh.
It’s made me not want to marry a man with kids. I don’t want to be a stepmom. I don’t want to be a second wife.
I’m currently struggling to find my purpose in this life and who I can be.
That was fascinating to read. Thanks for putting all that together.
I posted last week about why women cooperate with and support the patriarchy. I posited it’s out of fear. A well-worn, comfortable and familiar fear, but still fear. You do what you’re supposed to do because you’re afraid of what happens if you don’t. A couple of men in the comments pushed back on my label of ‘misogyny’ and wanted a softer word for men who are benevolent patriarchs, like Daniel Neeleman, but who aren’t beating or assaulting women. It’s all misogyny. The benevolent patriarchs create a society in which the physically violent misogynists can do what they do and women are blamed.
When I read the line in the article about Neeleman not being able to get out of bed for a week, my thought was depression. Not only physical exhaustion, but mental exhaustion as well. I’m probably just projecting my own struggles into her situation. But the idea of the work never letting up would crush me. There is no finish line, not if her husband wants to fill that 15-seater bus and she’s always ready for another baby nine months after the last one.
Part of me wants to say that Hannah removed her own voice. Perhaps she could have tried harder to say something honest to the reporter. But she must have also known that anything she said was going to be published and then trumpeted around social media. Was she afraid of the backlash? Did Daniel read her words about how nice the epidural was and tell her he was disappointed in her? Benevolent patriarchy is only benevolent as long as you don’t say it’s wrong. She might have been afraid of what would happen if she said things that openly disagreed with Daniel. Maybe not even consciously aware that she was afraid, but thinking that life would be a lot more comfortable if she didn’t say those things. Why stir up trouble if nothing is going to change anyway? She might have thought that.
Daniel, the benevolent patriarch, would not have known he was erasing her voice. He’s one of those men who believes that, since he loves a woman, he can speak for her. Surely he would be outraged if someone suggested that his behavior was causing pain to his wife or increasing her burdens. These are the men who believe their intentions should be the only thing that matters. “I never intended to hurt her.” Therefore, if she says he hurt/controlled/erased her voice, then she’s ignoring his good intentions and attacking him.
I read the article and followed the Twitter discussion about it, and I was left with a lot of questions. My own background is nothing like hers. I was not a SAHM; I’ve always had a career and was the top earner, my husband didn’t really pursue me and didn’t have these types of means at his fingertips. I also have 3 kids who were very planned to be far enough apart that no two would be in diapers at a time, but unlike Hannah Neeleman, I didn’t have the wealth, the health, the beauty-pageant looks, athleticism, talent, and frankly the specific type of ambition that goes with those pursuits. I had ambition, but never in that direction. She’s been sacrificing her mental wellness in pursuit of these ambitions well before Ballerina Farm, where the only thing not being grown is her ballerina dreams.
You asked whether we knew men like her husband, and even though I got my degree at BYU, I can honestly say that I didn’t really know them or date them, but I’m not doubting they existed; they just had zero interest in me. I never found men like this attractive or interesting. All men have some problematic ideas that have gotten into their brains just from living in society, but guys like this who pursue and grind down a girl who has turned them down for 6 months, yet somehow convince themselves that their own ideas and wishes are hers? I suspect that her punishingly ambitious background made her more susceptible to this kind of marriage. The qualities that make one successful as a ballerina or a beauty pageant winner require a lot of self-denial and even self-punishment to a degree that is often unhealthy.
My only exception at BYU was a guy my sister liked who kept coming by our apartment. He was 26. I was 18. He seemed like a total loser to me, lecturing me on my profanity, following me to the laundry room after I had told him repeatedly my sister was at class (she was his age, so I assumed he was looking for her). He finally told me he wasn’t coming by to see her, but to see me, and that he only lectured me on my behavior because he (I quit listening at this point–I don’t really know why he thought that was a good idea). He was very cute, but IMHO it’s creepy AF for a 26 year old man to be pursuing an 18 year old which is what I told him. There’s something both controlling and insecure about guys like that. I honestly didn’t see the appeal. It just seemed kind of pathetic to me.
I read somewhere recently, and don’t know if it was correct, but it said that 60% of women under 40 in the US haven’t had children, and many of those women have no plans to have them. I’m not aware of a commandment to have children. If there were such a commandment, Jesus would have had to obey the commandment, and we have no record of Jesus having a child at the cross, nor was Jesus’ soon-to-be-widow given to someone’s care. Mankind in general may have been directed to be fruitful and multiply, but that can’t be an individual commandment, because some men and women who do marry cannot bear children, and they are not sinners. God’s commands are usually universal (what He says to one He says to all). All of us can usually avoid stealing and murdering and coveting and blaspheming, and all of us can be kind and forgiving and more patient. Of course, families were important for those who have them, and having them does entail other duties and responsibilities. We know that Hannah desperately wanted a child, but her barrenness was not caused by sin. It appears that Zacharias and Elizabeth were at peace with their barrenness (I know the woman is usually called barren, but we know not all men are fertile).
I had never heard of the Neelemans or Ballerina Farm. Then I read the story of her participating in a beauty pageant just two weeks after giving birth to her eighth child. Hannah Neeleman seems sort of like an ultramarathoner. Someone who has managed to do something that we wouldn’t expect of most people and most people simply wouldn’t be physically or psychologically capable of doing. But alas, the fame of social media has pushed her and her husband to go to extremes. I have no doubt that toxic patriarchy has played a big part in this. Red flags galore. There is something about Daniel Neeleman that I just don’t trust.
The idea that Hannah Neeleman is the quintessential TradWife and is someone to look up to is ridiculous as well. Bear in mind that women couldn’t apply for a credit card without a male cosigner until 1974. I don’t want to go back to that time. There are many, many reasons that society left TradWives behind. It was not some idyllic past that evil liberals have trampled upon and that we desperately need to restore. It was full of abuse, neglect to women’s health, misogyny, child neglect, poverty, high infant mortality, and lack of women’s freedoms and rights.
Let me start by saying I’m a feminist with a capital F. I ran into Dave Neeleman (we were in the same ward at the time) pushing an overloaded cart at Costco, while pulling another. His former wife and I did Meals on Wheels together and he was always there to load the car. He helped his oldest DAUGHTER set up a well regarded fashion line. The OP was mostly balanced which I much appreciated. We cannot judge why someone who is in a marriage that looks ugly to us, stays. This was only in the news to mock Mormons and flash around the Neeleman name. And I’m not an apologist, but you know damn well they were trying to portray the whole church. Dave’s oldest son’s “sins” are his and his alone. And his daughter-in-law has the agency to do what she wants, and may not be as “trapped’ as we assume. It is going to take a long time to dismantle the Church’s patriarchal gerontocracy and their “one size fits all” way of thinking.
Australia is leading the medal tally!
Stacy W: it’s a hard story to read and video to watch. I think we can all hope like hell it’s not that bad! I absolutely agree that single or childless women shouldn’t just be lumped in that day with “you’re all mothers!” rhetoric. I typically advocate for mothers day to celebrate all types of righteous women, mothers or no (and that’s where another type of pushback comes in). I’m sorry it’s so hard. Sometimes it can feel like it’s impossible to be an LDS woman, esp one outside the ideal.,
Janey: for hypothetical sake, let’s say what appears in the article/video is accurate. What many folks see is a very young isolated woman who was indoctrinated from youth and surrounding examples into trad-wifery, and who as a young adult hardly knew herself before being pressured into these choices. Then before you know it you’re 8 kids in, and any doubt about the influences that led to the choices of where you’re at is going to cause hella cognitive dissonance and an identity crisis. It’s just a lot easier to keep believing what led you to that point than break away.
Hawkgrrrl: I mean the guys I knew like this were in my business major classes or gym bros 🙂
Brad D: I think that’s what’s missing in a lot of these influencer accounts — can we get an overtly feminist tradwife, please? someone who clearly has developed sense of autonomy. Maybe got married late and has no question of being able to provide for herself alone, and who has an egalitarian relationship, yet chooses the traditional life. Like what are we thinking here, Ina Garten? She was a govt financial analyst at the OMB before she became barefoot contessa right? Those are the vibes I’m thinking of. Someone when a guy would try to pressure into not waiting a year to date would tell him to go to hell, if she was worth it now she should be worth waiting for. We need tradwifery without the trappings/ease of abuse and exploitation, right?
englecameron: I did my best to present what things *appear* or seem to be, clearly showing that’s not a given. Hypothetically this could be a complete hit job — and it’s possible it’s not …. most likely it’s somewhere in between? I mean I feel like the Neeleman’s clearly implicate a very conservative cultural, political, and religious worldview and way of life; and feel like God’s guided and called them to spread this message to the lost and fallen world. I mean, their fellow congregants critique this, I don’t think that means that an outsider can’t also hold a critical lens towards it. PS yes, jerk-wad sons can come from fathers who are complete gentleman. Usually these guys pick it up from the culture they’ve been swimming in. And that’s an IF Daniel is even a jerk-wad, right?
@Geoff-Aus Great swim by Titmus to pick up 400 free gold, and once again your women’s 4×100 free relay was crushingly fast. Did enjoy how our men’s 4×100 free relay smoked yours though. Too bad for you on the missed kick in rugby, you had the bronze, then gave it away.
Thanks for the OP. I hadn’t heard of Ballerina Farms before, but reading your comments and what I could find on the internet, maybe helps me understand my sister’s marriage and the dynamics sometimes at play there a bit more. The egg apron gift was pretty hard to watch.
I don’t think that Daniel or his flavor of patriarchy can reasonably be described as “benevolent”. The list of red flags is so long that I cannot write a hundredth part here.
Hannah also wrote a blog pre-farm and there are plenty more red flags there about Daniel.
However, perhaps all this criticism will lead him to self reflect and make serious changes in how he believes and behaves. That is the grace I am comfortable extending him – the opportunity to change when confronted with one’s own behavior.
I suppose then we will know if “benevolent” is a good descriptor.
My wife and I have seen some TikTok clips of Ballerina Farms.
We feel bad for the little children. It appears that the Queen is too preoccupied about the video making and her farm tasks, while meantime a little child is screaming and crying in the back ground. And where is Dad? Maybe we have not seen enough footage, but from what we saw, we were not impressed. It is more Utahns showing off and competing with each other, for what purpose?
Children need time and attention with love, more than popularity and name regonotion.
It seems the Needleman family is not doing this out of economic necessity. Who else can buy acres of farm land near Park City and quit their corportate job and pay Gillard tutition. Good for them to have money! But please take care of your younger crying kids and do not throw the older ones into a lifestyle of children actors, just so the parents can be famous, making more money, while “sharing the gospel”.
Another problem with Ballarina Farms is that it reinforces the weirdness of Mormonism and its past. Yes, we do have lots of kids. Yes, this is a patriarchy. Yes, we dress up like pioneers. Yes, we are old fashioned and behind the times and still live on a farm.
Remember the program,
171819 kids and counting. It was based out of Arkansas. Did that program change or reinforce your stereotype of Arkansas? Then the eventual train wreck that followed with that family dynamics, was a travesty.Influencers, help us understand why you throw your personal life out there. I do not understand, other than the Mormon community has a Junior High popularity complex.
Holy smokes, I had not heard of ballerina farm, although I do remember hearing about the barely postpartum beauty pageant entry. As a feminist, I try not to judge other people’s life choices. But as a mom to 12 and 9 year old girls, I was disheartened to see how many of my friends follow their socials, including our Young Women’s president. It disturbs me that this type of relationship is normalized and even embraced by members of our church as exemplary. Traditional patriarchy and its emphasis on staying sweet and pretty and obeying one’s husband and giving up one’s dreams and popping out as many children as physically possible are not not my values, and not the values I want my daughters absorbing from their church leaders. Heavy hearted sigh.
And unless Hannah has Olivia Colman-level acting chops, she was super sad in that birthday video. I hate to see it. And I don’t understand why that horrible post would be made public. He is like, isn’t this hilarious that all my wife wanted for her birthday was a much needed vacation from her daily grind of farm chores, home cooking, and eight kids, and instead I gave her an apron to remind her of said chores. On her birthday. And I recorded it. And she was obviously disappointed and I made her thank me for my crappy gift. And then I made this nastiness available for the world to see. Stay classy, Daniel.
Kristine you should do a post about Lisa Neeleman Wilson who is the mother of a semi-famous NFL quarterback.
I think it is interesting to compare and contrast mainstream LDS/secular reception of Ballerina Farm with how those same groups perceive a show like Sister Wives. Both display patriarchal principles that are rooted in Mormon doctrine.
It would be fascinating to poll members of the mainstream LDS church about their perceptions of both families. I would hypothesize that they might praise the former while criticizing the latter because of the polygamy. My guess is that it isn’t necessarily how the women are treated but how many women are concurrently treated that way by one man (meaning that death counts for something here). I’m not sure I can say for sure how other LDS groups and secular groups might perceive similarities and differences of Ballerina Farm and Sister Wives.
I struggle with the idea of “benign patriarchy” because patriarchy poisons the thinking of everyone involved. Neither Ballerina Farm nor Sister Wives are environments in which I would expect my firecracker daughter to flourish in.
I hope she can see the evils of men who wield wealth, physical strength, God, or some combination of all three to create and maintain a relational power imbalance. I hope she finds a partner who will see the same potential I see and nourish her growth. I hope she finds a partner that will keep her love through allowing her to fly and not through subjugation.
Chet: ZACH WILSONS MOM IS A NEELEMAN OMGGGG
Two things I want to reiterate from my post:
these videos and articles present a story; we don’t know for SURE that she’s in an exploitative situation. We can say we don’t want what is presented here for our daughters though, right?
do we, as Mormon feminists, support women’s ability to choose their own lives? Hannah has chosen and is choosing her life—as long as she’s not being abused (to many folks she appears to be—is that a fair definition or judgment?) if she’s not we should support that right? Is actively choosing submitting to and presenting to the world benevolent patriarchy the problem? Is it our own complicated relationships with outside voices influencing our own trad wife lives? What lies at the intersection of our upset?
pS I would give a million dollars to sit with LTU or Claudia or Carol Lynn Pearson and watch the egg apron video and have a convo w them about this
Daniel’s maternal grandfather was my dad’s best friend throughout his life. I knew him and his wife very well because we spent a lot of time together. I am positive in saying that his grandparents would be thoroughly appalled by his behavior if they were alive today, so I’m glad that they didn’t have to witness their grandson showing the world what patriarchy Mormon style looks like.
The wife’s story reminds me too much of my first engagement. My fiancé came from one of the well known LDS families at the time. Too many of the things that this poor woman deals with were the same ones that I did. My fiancé pushed for getting engaged quickly. He swept me off my feet with love bombing and appeared to be every Mormon young woman’s dream of an eternal partner. Fortunately I couldn’t do a short engagement like he wanted. The longer we were engaged the more I saw things that gave me pause for concern, but I sadly often overrode my inner voice because I wanted to be married. Silly, naive me!
His mother told me after everything fell apart after the second and final time we broke up that he had planned to sell MY instrument that I played as a professional freelance musician after we got married so that I could solely focus on him. Whenever decisions were to be made he assumed that I would allow him to make the decisions for both of us. I absolutely refused to let him do so, and then he accused me of being “contentious and of the Devil”. The verbal, emotional and psychological abuse I suffered caused me to not trust myself. It wasn’t until about two months after the end of the relationship for good that I read an article about abusive partners and the traits they have in common. My ex had 13 of the 15 traits of an abusive person. However, he came across as Peter Priesthood to anyone who didn’t know him well. The people who worked for him knew, but they’d all had to sign NDAs when they joined his company. The veneer of goodness and righteousness was eventually destroyed when the poor woman he finally married died of the accumulated effects of his physical abuse, and then his workers reported him to the state labor board for shady business dealings and for the terrible emotionally abusive way he treated his employees.
Even though Ballerina Farm portrays a perfect trad wife I would be interested in being a fly on the wall when the video isn’t recording. From what I learned through my own experience I’m almost certain that what life at home is portrayed to be is certainly NOT what goes on behind the scenes. How unutterably sad.😞
How to view the ballerina farm situation? On the one hand there’s an enormous power imbalance. He comes from wealth vs her more modest upbringing. While she has a more prestigious degree, she notes feelings of inadequacy in her own homeschool education where she never did a research paper or learned calculus; within a relationship these feelings of inadequacy can be exploited. And she ended up having to abandon the art she studied so hard to master.
Their love story feels off–she turned him down for six months straight and then upon learning how much wealth he comes from suddenly is willing to get engaged, married, and pregnant within half a year.
They feature their children so prominently in their social media. Aren’t we far enough into our societal blog/social media experience to recognize the harms to children in growing up on platforms broadcast to the entire world?
Others have pointed out their clothing choices are not typical of others who live off the land and farm and ranch. In the end it has the appearance of elaborate cosplay.
The comment Daniel made about Hannah being so ill that she can’t get out of bed for a week is alarming and I don’t know what to think about it but what a red flag.
Thanks for the post, Kristine–lots to think about.
In the end I can’t get the voice of Daniel saying “You’re welcome” out of my mind.
I was talking to a friend today – it’s impossible that Daniel & Hannah didn’t go over possible questions and answers and plan an itinerary before the interview happened. They have professional marketing and branding consultants. It’s what influencers do when they’re profiled. This just wasn’t a stay at home mom having a drop in visit. It was planned to fill the 4 hours how they wanted it to go. Did they mean for it to become what it did? Are they playing chess when we’re playing checkers? Is all PR good PR?? I’m sure they’ve gotten more followers since the profile came out. Aggghhhh to be a fly on the wall
Next time y’all come to Utah, drive up to Kamas, stop at the diner and ask the locals what’s up… You’ll be met with a grimace and/or eye roll. ‘Nuff said.
I read the article because it was shared in my Facebook feed. I can’t see the video because I’m not on Instagram, I guess. It doesn’t sound good. I’ve read a few articles in the last year about the “social media trad wife” phenomenon, but I hadn’t heard of this family before.
I don’t know what to make of the article. I’d like to think of myself as a fairly feminist man. I believe that feminism should mean respecting all possible choices that women want to make. I suppose that should include being married to an overbearing guy, as much as I hope (and believe) my own daughter would run the other way if such a guy showed interest in her. So it seems like this all comes down to whether Hannah Neeleman is choosing this life and is happy with her choice. Yes, there are things that look like red flags as depicted in the article, and I do find them concerning. But, ultimately there is only one person who can truly answer the question of whether she is choosing the life she wants. I feel like the author provided an interesting snapshot of a world that is totally foreign to me, but which I feel I still don’t know enough about to make a reliable judgment about. And yet, it seems the author has made her judgment about it, which came through in the article just a little too much for my taste. Even worse, it seems like the rest of the internet, who have spent even less time (zero, in fact) with the family in person, have also made their judgments about it, and I care for that even less. I hope Hannah Neeleman feels like she is living a life she wants and chose. If not, I hope she eventually does, however that might happen.
In general I don’t really understand this kind of voyeurism on social media, and I understand even less being willing to put yourself out there for said voyeurism. But the thing I really have a hard time with, which didn’t really come up in the article, is bringing your young kids into the whole performance for the camera. In theory the law grants parents the power to consent to this kind of nonsense on behalf of their minor children, but it’s all very troubling to me and I’m starting to wonder if the time has come for the law to put limits on this.
Two consenting adults, doing exactly what they choose to do (right or wrong), publishing the events of their lives for all to see; doesn’t seem to be anyone else’s business. I’m with Quentin on this….it’s just kinda/sorta sick voyeuristic nonsense.
Grizzerbear, consent (or the lack of it) is a big part of why this circus fire of a family rubs people the wrong way. Yes, Hannah is an adult and makes her own choices, but you can easily see moments in her story where she was coerced, either by her culture or her husband, or perhaps just uninformed (I’m really not sure she understands how contraception works, and that’s not entirely unheard of among some LDS families I know). Likewise, Daniel is kind of an asshole, and by definition, assholes are typically unaware of their own contemptible behavior and the damage it causes. And even though they are both adults, their kids certainly did not consent to participate in this lifestyle.
Mormon mommy bloggers and “lifestyle porn” influencers come and go all the time (recent history has shown that it is not a sustainable way to live a healthy life, let alone sustainable as a business model). Let’s stop giving these people our time and attention, and they eventually will fade away quietly. Unfortunately, some such families ultimately crash and burn spectacularly, so I hope for better outcomes for the sake of their children.
I agree with Jack Hughes influencers come and go. I remember when the bucket list family was making the rounds. Hey! We are just your average Mormon family with three kids who quit our jobs and put our stuff in storage and are travelling the world in a modest way. Like us. Follow us. Be like us. Until CNN wrote an article that this couple sold IP for $50M prior to hitting the road. Not exactly the average Mormon couple any more, amiright?
Then there was eight passengers. With a very sad ending.
As to grizzbear’s comment that this is voyeuristic nonsense, this is different that a nosy neighbor or an aggressive HOA. THEY put out the content, wanting people to see it. I suppose we could all just shrug our shoulders but at the same time, our kids and their kids are going to see this stuff. I personally feel we need to view and critique. Otherwise non-normal behavior may be normalized to the average viewer. None of this is normal. We need to say it out loud.
I hadn’t heard of this couple until I read this article. I feel bad for the kids. They aren’t consenting to the public life.
Chadwick: I understand and agree with the sentiment – but ultimately, they are two (supposedly mature adults) who have chosen their own way to life. Our collective emotional hand wringing about these people is not going to change a thing.
Just because Hannah is ambitious and has chosen this lifestyle, she’s oppressed? As an atheist, artist and historian, that POV sounds oppressive.
A traditional marriage and having lots of kids is not bad if you create a happy home in the process – we should celebrate that – but we should also celebrate people who choose otherwise.
The author clearly chose to truncate their dialogue because she probably sees Hannah’s lifestyle as something foreign than her own. Most workplaces subjugate women left and right. Why isn’t she writing about real subjugation of women in their CHOSEN workplace, rather than picking apart a woman who is clearly running her own business, while trying to create the best home life for her kids in the traditions she chooses to live by.
Hannah is not a gullible woman – she is making CHOICES about the way she wants to live based on her beliefs. Like she’s not smart enough to know better?
She is not imposing her lifestyle on those who are followers. Clearly, the author of the London Times article is imposing her POV onto her life. The real oppressors are the women and men who want to take CHOICE away from women. The author is ridiculing Hannah’s choice by implying that Hannah is an ignorant passive female with a pie in the sky view of her husband and his profundity.
As long as women have opportunities to choose – you can’t really criticize how people live their life based on your moral imperative – we all have a right to be who we are without judgment.
Y’all are mighty patronizing!
The complete and total refutation of the New Testament. Was Mark’s Gospel an intentional tool of Roman psychological warfare, or was it a Jewish counter-narrative meant to influence how different Jewish communities engaged with Rome?
Pie in the sky speculations attempt to foist as actual history propaganda stories of an imaginary Man-God & a zealous convert to Xtianity. Despite the clear language of the Torah that nothing in the Heavens, Earth, or Seas compares to the image of God or the prophet Bil’am’s explicit vision – God is not a Man.
Coptic revisionist history does not change speculative books of propaganda into actual history. The earliest surviving manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark written in Greek. Papias’s claim that Mark, originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic simply never substantiated by any physical evidence. This discrepancy highlights the challenges in relying solely on early testimonies. Simply due to the fact that no known agenda defines the purpose of those early works!
News travelled slowly in ancient times. Writing a detailed account like the Gospel of Mark would require more time than the immediate aftermath of the Temple’s destruction. The process of dating ancient texts often involves interpretations based on incomplete evidence. The News of the destruction of Herod’s Temple would by far have out shined the News of the Roman torture of a common criminal!
The floated speculation made by Xtian scholars that the Mark gospel written between AD 65 – 75 has no physical evidence – anymore. This revisionist history of the life and death of a Harry Potter – imaginary Jesus. Furthermore, the Roman war to put down the Jewish revolt, like the destruction of Herod’s Temple in AD 66 would have swamped the News Headlines!
Historians and scholars often work with incomplete evidence, leading to various theories and interpretations. The dating of ancient texts involves analyzing historical, literary, and contextual clues, which can result in differing scholarly opinions. Revisionist history perverts speculation and biased beliefs in God as the basis for truth! But this religious speculative interpretation, not the only kid on the playground.
What evidence we have does suggest that Mark’s Gospel – written in Greek, and the claim that it was originally in Hebrew or Aramaic is one of those early testimonies (like Papias’s) that has not been substantiated by physical evidence. The lack of an original manuscript in Hebrew or Aramaic definitely complicates the matter. To point out the flimsy argument to its face.
From a historical perspective, the fall of the Temple, a monumental event, and indeed. It would have garnered more attention from contemporary sources than the death of a single man—especially if that man was seen as a marginal figure at the time. A fine line between interpretation and assertion.
History and religious narratives can sometimes become entangled with belief systems, and how that can distort our understanding of past events. History, at its core, should strive toward objective and evidence-based possibilities. The reliability of early Christian sources like Irenaeus (c. AD 180) and Clement of Alexandria (c. AD 200) depends on how one evaluates historical testimony. While some of the earliest known religious Goyim voices commenting on the origins of the Gospels, reliability – debated due to their biased views toward Xtianity. Traditional church dating of the gospels serves Xtian narratives. Irenaeus wrote around AD 180, more than a century after mythical Jesus’ time. Clement of Alexandria is even later, writing closer to AD 200.
Both writers were engaged in theological battles, especially against Gnosticism. Some argue that their emphasis on apostolic authorship simply driven by the need to defend orthodoxy rather than strict historical accuracy. We do not have direct writings from Mark himself or from first-century figures confirming his authorship, only second-hand traditions which no courtroom would accept such hearsay evidence!
Courts reject hearsay because the person who originally made the claim, unavailable for cross-examination. Ancient history, much of what we know comes from later accounts. If we dismissed all second-hand testimony, we’d lose most of ancient history, including figures like Socrates, whose teachings come from Plato and Xenophon. Mythology defines the ancient Greek writings.
Challenging the idea that Mark’s Gospel was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic—and even questioning its authenticity altogether—comes from different camps within biblical scholarship. The Greek syntax and grammar do not suggest a translation from Semitic languages. Mark’s Gospel includes Latinisms (Roman loanwords), such as centurion (kenturion in Greek) and denarius, indicating it was written for a Greek-speaking Roman audience. The use of Aramaic phrases (e.g., Talitha koum in Mark 5:41) suggests that the author was translating occasional words rather than the entire text being a translation.
Eusebius (4th century) quotes Papias, affirming that Mark wrote his Gospel based on Peter’s preaching, but he makes no reference to a Hebrew or Aramaic version which Papias (AD 110-140) claims. Some reasonable skeptics argue that Mark’s Gospel simply not based on historical events but rather a theological narrative invented by early Christians. They suggest Mark created a fictionalized Jesus, using Jewish scriptures (like Isaiah and the Psalms) as a template rather than actual historical events.
Figures like Richard Carrier argue that Jesus, originally understood as a celestial being and that Mark later invented a biography for him, shaping the Gospel as an allegory rather than historical record. Many accept that Mark contains some historical elements but argue that miraculous accounts, predictive prophecy, and resurrection narratives, simple later embellishments made by Xtians who loved fairy tail stories.
Paul as an Agent Provocateur: Instigating Civil War in Rome? Having lived in Rome he understood Roman weaknesses and political undercurrents. Like for example: Caesar worshipped himself as the son of God. Paul’s writings qualify also as political satire. Like Nigger Jim in Mark Finn who mocks King Solomon as the wisest of all men! The idea that the kingdom of God is not of this world fits precisely within Greek and Roman mythologies! Jewish religious authorities, specifically over the specific debate of an oven, where rabbi Eleazer got place into harem. Rabbi Eleazer called on a bat-kol, and the rabbis declared: the Torah does not come from heaven!
Mark’s ‘Rome written’ Gospel aimed to promote disharmony between the Jews of Alexandria Egypt and the Jews of Judea. During the Bar Kakhba revolt the Jews of Axelandria did not join that revolt. This permitted the Roman legions to destroy both revolts piecemeal.
Chaos and anarchy defined the state of Judea during the first revolt against Rome. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls conclusively proves these historical facts. If Mark were inciting Jewish-on-Jewish conflict, it would align with historical accounts that factions within Jerusalem were already fighting among themselves before Rome even breached the city walls.
Why does Mark’s gopels have Jesus say, “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s” (Mark 12:17)? This supports the premise that the gospel writings of Mark supported Jewish Civil War. The messiah narrative did emphatically split into strongly opposed Jewish factions! Jewish appeasers compare to post WWI British supporters of Chamberlain! Clearly the writings of Mark’s gospels opposed the war prone Zealots!
Divide and Conquer an old idea. Roman interests as well as Jewish interested preferred fighting one another while their enemies fought their own internal Civil War. The Maccabees conducted this strategy successfully against the Syrian Greeks 150 years previous.
Roman emperors (especially Augustus) were deified as Divi Filius (Son of God). Paul’s reinterpretation of “Son of God” into a Jewish-messianic sense, could have been perceived by Rome as an indirect attack on Roman religious authority. If Paul mocked Caesar’s claim to divinity, it would qualify as political subversion—though disguised as religious teaching.
The comparison of Paul to Mark Twain’s Jim in Huckleberry Finn, that his theology contained coded humor and irony meant to subvert authority. Some scholars note parallels between Greek/Roman mythology and Paul’s spiritual kingdom concept, suggesting he tailored his message to resonate with Roman audiences.
Paul’s conflicts with Jewish religious leaders (especially over Torah authority) certainly widened the divide between Hellenistic Jews and traditional Pharisees. His message of a Torah-free Gospel was highly inflammatory—not only did it anger Judean Pharisees, but it also alienated Jewish nationalists who wanted a political Messiah. This played into Roman interests, whether Paul intended it or not.
Mark’s Gospel exacerbated Jewish factionalism, particularly between Alexandrian Jews and Judean Jews. Did Alexandrian Jews Refuse to Join the Bar Kokhba Revolt Because of Mark’s Influence? There is no direct evidence linking Mark’s Gospel to Alexandrian Jewish neutrality, but the timing remains intriguing. Alexandrian Jews far more assimilated & Hellenized, and less likely to support a militant Jewish messianic movement. If Mark’s Gospel circulated among them, emphasizing a suffering, non-political Messiah, it could have dissuaded them from joining the rebellion.
Josephus records that Jews in Jerusalem already experienced in killing each other before the Romans even arrived (Zealots vs. Priests vs. Sicarii). Mark’s Gospel portrays Jewish leaders as divided and corrupt, reinforcing Roman narratives that Jews were ungovernable. If Mark’s intention was to drive a wedge between Jewish factions, it would align with the Roman “divide and conquer” strategy.
Mark 12:17 (“Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s”) suggests support for Roman rule and opposition to Zealot resistance. Jesus’ statement could be read as a message of appeasement. Encouraging Jews to cooperate with Rome, undermining Zealot ideology, and reinforcing the idea that the Messiah was not meant to be a political revolutionary.
The Maccabees used this Divide-and-Conquer Strategy against the Greeks—turning different Hellenistic factions against each other. Rome, a master of this strategy, pitting Jewish factions against each other: Sadducees vs. Pharisees, Zealots vs. Hellenized Jews, Priests who denied the Oral Torah vs. rabbis who taught the Oral Torah. If Mark’s Gospel helped weaken Jewish unity, it ultimately benefited Rome.
Paul’s personal motives remain unclear—was he a true believer, or a savvy political manipulator? Mark’s Gospel certainly reinforced factional divisions, whether by design or accident. The idea that Paul may have been an agent provocateur, knowingly exacerbating divisions within the Roman world to the benefit of Jerusalem, a compelling angle that aligns with historical Greek & Roman strategies of divide and conquer. Equally well known and embraced by Jewish Sanhedrin leadership which sent Paul to Rome to promote Roman Civil War prior to the outbreak of the great Jewish revolt.
The connection between Mark’s Gospel and Jewish factionalism—especially its potential impact on Alexandrian Jews’ neutrality during the Bar Kokhba revolt—also quite interesting. If the Mark gospel, indeed written to undermine Jewish resistance by promoting a passive, non-political Messiah, it would fit neatly within the broader Roman strategy of controlling subject populations by weakening internal unity. The historical backdrop of intra-Jewish conflict before the fall of the Temple, as recorded by Josephus, provides further support for the idea that Mark’s Gospel likely designed (or at least functioned) as a tool of division rather than unity.
If the Sanhedrin saw Rome’s internal divisions as a potential advantage—especially in the lead-up to the Jewish revolt—Paul’s role as an instigator could have been strategic. Given his Roman citizenship, education in Greek rhetoric, and ability to move between Jewish and Roman circles, he served as a well-positioned Sanhedrin asset, who introduced subversive ideas that could destabilize Roman unity.
This would parallel with other historical examples where Jewish leadership attempted to manipulate larger imperial powers to their own advantage—much like the Hasmoneans did with Seleucid factions during their earlier revolt. If the Sanhedrin sent Paul to Rome as a spy, with the purpose: to promote theological and ideological rifts, it would explain why his teachings so totally disruptive—not just among Jews but within the Roman elite as well.
Mark’s Gospel, then, could be seen as part of this broader game of influence, to pacify Jewish resistance (if pacifist pro-Roman) or to create ideological splits that kept Jews distracted among themselves (if it served as a deeper Roman war-time strategy). The fact that Alexandrian Jews stayed out of the Bar Kokhba revolt, while Judean Jews fought Rome head-on, could suggest that differing religious narratives—possibly shaped by Mark—helped fragment Jewish unity.
This interpretation pits the writings of Mark against those of Paul. Neither not as a merely religious thinkers, but as active political partisans, in the geopolitical struggle between Rome and Judea. If the Sanhedrin had the foresight to recognize Rome’s internal tensions and employed Paul as the tip of their spear, it would entirely redefine his original mission. A political kabbalah concealed from shallow Goyim who simply read his letters at face value. Rather than being a rogue preacher or a sincere evangelist, Paul served the Sanhedrin Court in Jerusalem as an early example of ideological subversion—using theology to create divisions within Roman society.
This would mean his emphasis concerning a “kingdom not of this world”, a concealed way to undercut Roman religious authority, while his rejection of strict Torah observance like circumcision, could have been a means to fracture Jewish support for the messianic Jesus nonsense. It also fits with his constant conflicts—both with Jewish traditionalists and with factions within early Christianity. His letters reveal a figure constantly navigating and exacerbating divisions, whether intentionally or as a by-product of his ideological agenda.
Mark’s Gospel, also exposed as a second layer of Roman counter-disruption. Written in Rome, Mark’s gospel could have expressed Roman strategic interests (to pacify Jewish resistance by promoting a passive Messiah) or to define Jewish messianism in a way that created discord between Hellenized Jews and their Judean counterparts. The simple fact stands: The church behaves as if it has a lock and key monopoly over the mitzva of Moshiach; despite the Pauline declaration that Goyim not under Jewish common law.
The fact that Alexandrian Jews sat out the Bar Kokhba revolt while Judean Jews were crushed, strongly suggests that competing messianic narratives—such as influenced by texts like Mark—which totally ignores the Torah Moshiach precedent of Moshe anointing Aaron with oil, which served as the basis of Shmuel who anointed both Shaul and David as Moshiach with oil. The gospel narratives all ignore the precedent of anointing all korbanot placed upon the altar with oil. It does not weigh the dedication through oil wherein the Moshiach sanctified to rule the oath brit chosen Cohen lands with righteous judicial justice as the faith of the Torah. Hence the gospel writers, not just Mark, instrumental in keeping Jewish factions divided. If true, this would mean early Christianity simply never just a mere religious movement, but part of a larger strategic game—a subversive ideological front in the struggle between Rome vs. Judea.
Now if the letters of Paul and the gospel of Mark bogus? Then so too and how much more so, the gospels of Matthew and Luke and the much later John likewise get flushed down the toilet.