Can you guess what that sequence of numbers represents? It’s not map coordinates for a secret treasure. It’s not the combination to the family safe. It’s not a Patrick Mahomes snap count. None of the above. The first three numbers are the ages of the members of the LDS First Presidency. The last two numbers are the ages of our two presumptive US Presidential election nominees. We have talked about this before on the blog, but President Biden’s performance last week at the first and possibly only presidential debate has reopened the discussion: How old is too old?
Perhaps you watched the Trump-Biden debate. I heard it on the radio while driving. It didn’t matter. It was game over for Biden in the first 15 minutes. Biden, who is 81, sounded like he was 95. Trump, who is 78, sounded like he was 58. Media reports indicate leading Democratic politicians and pundits were appalled at the weak showing by Biden. That Trump was his usual lying self was eclipsed in post-debate discussion by the Biden implosion. There is rampant talk of the pros and cons of replacing Biden on the ticket, even at this late hour, countered by Biden defenders giving unimpressive responses like “Hey, it’s just one debate” and “He had a cold.” Again, how old is too old?
Here’s the question we kicked around on the blog backlist a bit: How are Mormons reacting? As a group, Mormons are not particularly reflective, but they’re not brain dead. If they are like just about everyone else who watched or heard the debate, their first reaction was, “Obviously, 81 is too old to be running for President. Biden is just too old.” At some later point in the evening, these same Mormons will probably be struck by the following thought: “Uh, wow, so I suppose 81 is probably too old to be running the Church. And, golly, if 81 is too old, 99 is way too old.”
So here are some reflections on this fairly obvious point that 99 is too old to be running the LDS Church. Or is it? Here are some counterarguments. I’m throwing these out for discussion. It’s a tough issue.
This is why we don’t have General Conference at 9 pm Eastern Time. Old folks do better in the morning. It’s really unfair to put them on a stage late at night and expect them to be sharp and witty (key skills in a televised debate) or even coherent. Senior LDS leaders are rarely doing official business or giving talks that late, so this isn’t a big deal. And they don’t do debates or open question press conferences.
Senior LDS leaders don’t show the normal effects of aging because God protects and strengthens them. Well, maybe He does and maybe He doesn’t, but it is certainly not the case that senior LDS leaders do not show the normal effects of aging. That is simply not a fact on which an argument can be built. The senior LDS leadership sample is somewhat biased because very good health is no doubt a requirement to be called as an LDS apostle in your fifties or sixties. Furthermore, as noted below, when senior LDS leaders go into decline, they also retreat from public view, so the average Mormon is simply not allowed to see an LDS leader in decline. Most Mormons think LDS leaders rarely don’t go into mental decline because they aren’t allowed to see them when in decline.
Biden just had a bad night. Maybe we all have a bad day now and then, but old folks have them more frequently. For the average old person, a bad day might mean skipping bridge at the senior center that day. Presidential candidates can’t take a pass on a scheduled prime time debate, so Biden got hit on a bad night. But senior LDS leaders are carefully managed. If they are ill or are having a bad day/week/month, they can skip General Conference (happens frequently) and even have their duties pared down or fully reassigned. Senior LDS leaders are simply never sent out in public when they have a bad day. They might be as bad as Biden was on debate night or even a lot worse, and we rank and file members would never know it.
How are the young folks voting? I have seen plenty of media stories reporting significant frustration among the younger cohort of voters faced with the choice between two really old candidates, neither of whom have much appeal for younger voters. Many will no doubt vote for third-party candidate as a protest, or simply not vote at all. There are also rumblings among the younger LDS cohort. They don’t necessarily frame their unhappiness in quite the same way (unhappiness with really old leaders) but instead have a vague sense that the Church program in general is old and out of date in its views and practices. They might bolt to another denomination or simply drop out. One visit to a megachurch with a mellow rock band and LDS music never sounds the same. One-hour church with post-service coffee and donuts is a pretty effective proselyting tool.
The US President has a lot of essential duties. The LDS President? Part of that first reaction that most listeners had to Biden’s debate performance was no doubt something like this: “I simply cannot imagine Biden going through a full day of meetings, attentively taking in lots of important information, participating in vigorous discussion regarding options, then making key decisions.” Is that what senior LDS leaders do all day? Maybe not. Lots of work is delegated to junior LDS leaders and managers. Key decisions? Actually, those don’t come along very often. The Church kind of runs itself most of the time. We know this because there have been times when the President plus one of the counselors is known to be well along the road to incapacity and pretty much nothing changes in the operation of the Church. So, this line of thinking goes, the LDS President can be 99 and do almost nothing in terms of leadership or decision-making with little or no effect on the Church. But we can’t afford to have an 81-year-old US President in similar decline because the executive branch doesn’t run itself the way the LDS Church does.
Maybe you can think of more angles or comparisons. Here are some narrower questions to kick around. Notice I haven’t named any LDS names. I’m not really interested in particular examples of an LDS leader who told the same joke twice in an extemporaneous talk. It’s the general problem, the systemic problem, that is the issue.
- If you watched or listened to the debate, was your honest reaction anything other than, “Wow, Biden is too old to be running for President”?
- Do you buy the following reasoning: “If Biden is too old to be running for President at 81 and way too old to serve four more years in office, then no one in their nineties (or eighties?) ought to be serving as LDS President.”
- If you don’t buy that reasoning, what is your counterargument? “It doesn’t matter that the LDS President is in his nineties because …”
- The obvious solution is for senior LDS leaders, like GA Seventies, to age out and be released at some given age (it is age 70 for Seventies). What’s that age, 75? 80? 90? I honestly can’t see any reasonable objection to this proposal.
Wheat & Tares 
There should be emeritus status for everyone, including the prophet. Yes, there might be someone fully capable in their 90s, but the present system guarantees a demented prophet much of the time.
Debate: it was the old man vs. the con man. the old man was so horrible that the con man got away with lying every time he spoke. We lose either way.
Church leadership: if only we had a family member of a Church president be willing to reveal the actual mental state of his relative (the Church president). And if only that relative worked for a major media organization so that we could find out. (hint: 1980s)
why don’t these people retire? This is the question I still have. Get out of the way and let the next generation lead. Biden could go spend the day at the beach with his grand kids or ride the trains he loves. Trump could commit fraud and other crimes between golf games. Nelson and Oaks could spend time with great grand children.
I will definitely retire as soon as I am able. I have plans to learn to make violins or boats. Lots of slow careful woodworking and growing more vegetables in the garden than I could possibly eat. Assuming these old leaders don’t create a dystopian world where that is not possible first.
One of the things I very much appreciate about this blog is the dispersion of age among the posters and commenters. I’m in my mid 40s but I can vaguely remember some of the ever-pressing concerns that were with me in my childhood, adolescence, teenage years, single adulthood, and the more recent and current phase of being a parent of a young child.
While I can intellectually recall how intense and important certain issues were at a younger time of life, the intensity and severity of the challenges and concerns I faced then seem completely foreign to me now. Put simply: I cannot mentally access the person that I was then. Some of the things that seemed so incredibly important then now seem almost meaningless or silly. And isn’t this what Paul meant in 1 Corinthians 13:11? (When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.)
This morning on my run I listened to a Wall Street Journal article titled “The Other Age Issue: Old Voters Are Gaining Power Around World.” Highly recommend reading this as it hits on several important issues. The gist of the article is that as the electorate skews older, the policy priorities that are represented skew towards the older as well. This manifests itself in spending priorities as well as tax policy, but also other issues as well. The article mentions that older voters care very much about pensions, entitlement benefits, hospitals, nursing homes, crime, and immigration. What they seem to care less about would be things like childcare, environmental policy, education, infrastructure, etc.
How this relates to what Dave B wrote: I think the older skew of church leaders reflects a distorted version of church-related policies, doctrines, and priorities. If you have church leaders in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, I don’t think they can really relate to the challenges and concerns that are faced by the under 40 church members. And I think that explains why the church might struggle even more as the reality of the past diverges so sharply from the economic reality of the present. The church leaders can double down on The Family Proclamation and traditional gender roles, or reinforce the need to wear garments, but that won’t really help younger members of the church couple, start families, or even afford many of the things the older generation took for granted. To compound the problem, the high cost of housing, higher education, and transportation means that the financial/career penalty for serving a mission and paying tithing makes it even more difficult church members who come from non-wealthy families to carry out the social reproduction that forms the basis of church membership.
I could conceive of church-related practices and programs that could be implemented that would help rather than hinder younger members and families, but I just shake my head in discouragement as I think about the email from the EQ president I got last week of the 6 families that are moving into our ward and need help this month.
Thanks for the comments, everyone.
Jacob L, that’s a really great point. I think you are right that older LDS leaders value younger LDS members but don’t really connect with their issues at all. Example: People often bring up the idea of doing some sort of childcare program in LDS chapels during the week. Wow would that be an attractive proposition for younger couples with kids — not just for the price break (or free?) but also for the nice clean facility staffed by LDS volunteers or paid providers using LDS chapels.
LDS leaders always dismiss these suggestions with a wave of the hand, invoking insurance and liability concerns. Which shows how little they understand the huge challenge that young couples with kids face. Hey, the Church successfully deals with liability and insurance issues across all aspects of its operations. They could easily do so with the childcare option — and they certainly have the money to fund it. They just don’t care. To someone in their 80s or 90s, “childcare” is almost a four-letter word. “Mommy should be home with the kids” is their controlling paradigm. This is despite it being a big issue for younger couples. Generational disconnect, and this is certainly not the only LDS example. Wow, I like that term: Generational disconnect.
Age neither qualifies nor disqualifies a person from high pressure leadership positions. By most objective measures Biden has been a fine to great president. He seems fine in speeches and interviews, and despite showing obvious signs of aging, seems to have been up to the job. Nelson appears quite sharp, though as the OP has pointed out, we only see him when he’s reading scripted conference talks or statements. Still, he seems “with it” despite obvious signs of aging. By any objective factors one could measure which might be important to a large church (membership growth and retention, money in the coffers, charitable donations?, avoiding scandal? – I don’t know) – I suppose you could say he’s been average, to be as objective as possible. Biden seems aware and sympathetic to the concerns of young people (student loan forgiveness – at least attempted – is one example) and has evolved in his ideas and beliefs over time. Nelson is not and has not on both accounts. I could go on.
The point is, age has very little to do with it. There are capable, wonderful old people, and incapable, terrible old people. Mel Brooks is in his 90s and is still sharp and very funny. Bill Cosby, who is pushing 90, is a highly diminished sexual predator. Of course, when it comes high leadership positions, the consequences of “senior moments” could be dire. I’m not worried with Biden because he has surrounded himself with smart, capable people whom I trust would step in if he ever went off the rails. Trump on the other hand, surrounds himself with groveling sycophants (including the supreme court)who have shown they will not do the same. I’m not sure what this current crop of church leaders around Nelson would do, but previous leaders have intervened to at least keep things going when the church president suffered physical and mental decline. Again, age is not a non-factor in leadership, but it’s far from my greatest concern.
I’ll take older and ethical over not-quite-as-old and amoral any day! They may care more about pensions and hospitals but that’s better than not caring about anyone but himself
Just pick your important criteria and judge each person by the same standard. The former guy didn’t ‘win’ because he didn’t do as badly as usual. And the current president didn’t ‘lose’ because he didn’t do as well as usual.
Otherwise, what mat said. Choose your criteria and stick to it.
Canadian here so you can tell me to mind my own business, but my understanding is that Biden already has the delegates he needs and can only be replaced if he voluntarily releases them. Despite outside pressure the decision is in his hands.
In the church it is similar as the president of the church holds all the cards. For change to happen we would need a president of the church to make those changes and to voluntarily give up power. How likely is that? It seems in both instances we are at the mercy of the systems we have created.
Some of the Lord’s most powerful prophets have been slow of speech–whether because of age or some other limiting factor.
Personally, I felt betrayed when I watched the debate. How dare his handlers continue to claim he’s not cognitively impaired? How dare Jill Biden continue to support his belief that he’s the only one who can defeat Trump? Both Biden and Trump showed that they are unfit for the role in that debate. Trump is the worse option because he will surround himself with those who want to make Project 2025 a reality, and Biden will surround himself with a competent administration. The corrupt SCOTUS also makes it an imperative than any conservative POTUS is barred from office until legitimacy is restored with a more balanced court. The fact that two of the justices are active proponents of the MAGA insurrection and are making rulings on things like so-called presidential immunity is just insane.
Given that I would vote for a tie rack over Trump, I’m not the risk here. The risk is the voters who will stay home or just not vote the top of the ticket, which plays right into Trump’s hands. The idea that there will be a bunch of defectors to Kennedy doesn’t strike me as likely. He’s just too big a kook, and frankly a candidate whose brain was partly eaten by a parasitic worm just doesn’t instill confidence, even in light of that debate.
As to the Church, we’ve had two presidents in my lifetime who were basically empty chairs toward the end of their tenure: Benson and Monson. As with POTUS, most tasks can be done by the rest of the administration. The problem the Church has is that all the Q15 are elderly, they serve for life, and there is a strong emphasis on seniority and deferring to authority, making real listening and deliberation impossible. But the other things we see whether it’s the Church or POTUS is that the elderly are as prone to narcissism as younger people are, that they don’t want to let go of power, and that they aren’t as progressive as younger people in general, and they are often out of touch with the lives of people decades younger than they are. As I’ve noticed when I visit my elderly parents, they don’t live in 2024. It’s like a 1970s time capsule in that house. People are reading physical books and playing card games. The only thing missing is plastic covers on the furniture (my mom always hated those).
I didn’t watch the debate, but both major candidates, in my opinion, have shown enough cognitive decline that they shouldn’t be president.
As far as church leaders go, I’d prefer a system where apostles are retired at 75. (Current average age of the q15 is just over 78) Knowing this is the retirement age, new apostles would likely be selected at a younger age. The last 10 have averaged 63 with the youngest being 59.5. Getting that down to 55 would give us a senior leadership spread from 55 to 75. The younger ones would still have kids in college, getting married, having kids and doing all those regular life things. I would hope this would help them be more “in touch” with the membership. Another advantage is that they would by necessity have fewer years as professional church leaders. Nelson and Oaks both recently passed 40 years in the q15. Even ignoring their church assignments before that, that’s at least 40 years since they’ve been in a regular church meeting, gone to the christmas party, substituted in primary, cleaned the church, and all those things that we do all the time.
One other demographic note: the whole world is getting old, so to a degree, it isn’t surprising that leadership is old, too. In 1835 when the q15 was first filled out, the average age was 31 years old. When Joseph was killed it was 38. But the average age of the US back then was 17. When my parents were born in 1950 the average age of the q15 was up to 66 and the average age of the US was 30. The q15 is now 78 years old, but the average American in 2020 was nearly 39. (Yes, many parts of the world are much younger than the US, but while the church might not be US dominated by numbers like it once was, it is still US dominated culturally and financially.) The point is, the country (and world) is getting old, which is one of many reasons why older people have so much power.
Finally, I fundamentally don’t understand people (church leaders, politicians, anybody) that doesn’t retire they day they can afford it. They must be wired differently.
Hawkgrrl,
I appreciate your sentiment. I usually say I would vote for a bag of rice before I would vote for Trump, but I can see a tie rack would have the advantage of being a little higher up and easier to argue with.
Personally, I think Biden would honor his legacy by handing his candidacy off to a younger person, even Kamala.
The church would do well to follow the Catholic church’s example of a Pope/Prophet stepping down and handing off. We have emeritus general authorities, why not bring in younger leadership who are more connected to the youth? It would help the church’s growth and retention.
As Canadian dude noted, we have set up systems that put all the power with these older folks. We probably can’t expect any changes at all 😔
How about instead of asking if Biden is too old, we ask if Trump is too dishonest?
“Personally, I felt betrayed when I watched the debate. How dare his handlers continue to claim he’s not cognitively impaired?”
I find this extremely difficult to believe, but I’ll take your word for it. And if that’s the case, regardless of how my politics may differ from most permabloggers here, I now question to a greater degree the spectrum and quality of media material I know most permabloggers here voraciously and regularly try to consume. Many of us have seen the clear signs of dementia for at least three years now. I can understand how it would be harder to see just using mainstream media.
Age isn’t the issue. My Great Grandpa passed away at 94 from complications from a head injury he obtained slipping on ice while running to catch a bus headed for the U of U for classes he was taking. Mental degradation is a separate issue, and from what I understand, it’s becoming more pronounced in younger demographics.
The Church does not run the same way as the Federal Government (thank goodness). On the one hand, retirement for GAs seems like a good idea. On the other hand, I’m reminded of a story I once heard (through the grapevine, take it as you will) of ETB’s final days. There was a meeting with the First Presidency and Q12 in which a good deal of time was spent discussing an issue in which no progress was being made towards a consensus. President Benson looked inattentive and asleep (which was probably the case). Suddenly, he raised his head and with lucidity said “The Lord wants us to do this . . ,” then went right back to his previous position as if nothing had happened. Both his answer and the Spirit satisfied everyone else present.
If you believe in the reality of prophets, I think the story shows God is not entirely limited by the physical and mental state of his servants, and only He knows why they remain as long as they do in the state that they’re in. If you don’t believe in prophets, then I’d agree it’s a bunch of nonsense and that allowances for removal should exist.
Some people think Trump is showing signs of dementia too, but naw, he’s always been like that.
(Didn’t even remember having sex with a porn star! Now *that’s* cognitive decline.)
Eli: To be clear (and yes, we are obviously not consuming the same media), Biden is not exhibiting “clear signs of dementia” except in the colloquial sense that people use that term (the way people used to say “I’ve got pneumonia” when they had a cold). They both exhibit cognitive decline, and I’m personally alarmed that Biden is holding the office based on his performance. Trump is also exhibiting mental decline in the last 4 years, but it’s harder to notice since he lies constantly and uses rhetorical bluster, both of which mask it to an extent (in a way, the bar for him is lower). There is also evidence that Biden’s debate team “overprepped” him, evidenced by things like him trying to use lengthy detailed facts & snappy (but fairly long) soundbites, but losing track of them in the moment. Neither candidate consistently filled the allotted time, which to me also says a lot. When asked about climate change, Trump didn’t even attempt to answer the question. Was that clear evidence of dementia or just him dodging a policy question he has no answer to aside from “I plan to destroy the planet to protect the interests of rich donors whom I’ve been openly courting for years.” The one time that both candidates came alive is when arguing over who’s d**k is bigger, no wait, it was over who had the better golf game. Same thing. That alone is damning. You can’t talk policy, you can’t address the very real issues facing the country directly and clearly, but you can argue over something nobody but you cares about? Got it.
This performance was a big contrast to the State of the Union address which was mostly acceptable in terms of Biden’s ability to speak to a crowd. But this more extemporaneous speaking is part of what you have to do as POTUS. Biden has always struggled to perform off the cuff due to his stutter, but he couldn’t finish a sentence. We’ve seen that in other debates (Rick Perry couldn’t remember which 3 agencies of the government he had vowed to shut down?!), but again, this was not what Biden’s handlers have been saying, and to me, they are behaving recklessly in not being more honest. This forces the issue. But, a vote for Biden is a vote for Harris, whether he steps down or not. I just wish he would step the hell down, and that I could have that 90 minute sh*tshow erased from my memory (and from the memory of world leaders who now know that both candidates are unfit–one is for sale and plans to be a dictator, one is mentally unable to do the job, although in 4 years, that could apply to both.) My parents, who are 97 and 98, have never sounded as befuddled as Biden did on that stage (although they’ve never been tested in a similar way. They are also not fit to be president. They are completely out of touch with current issues.
The average age of OECD Leaders is 53.
Jacinda Adhern resigned as Prime Minister of New Zealand at age 43 saying she had given her all. In Australia we have had 3 of 6 state premiers resign while in office, in their 50s, saying they had given their all, and someone else could give it a go. In the last couple of years.
Is there something in American culture that someone like Biden can’t say I have given my all, and hand over to Kamala (she must be working hard behing the scenes to carry him). The “debate” was shown here and was sad. I can’t watch RMN chew his words either.
I am 75, I retired 20 years ago, I am no longer capable of working more than 3 hours a day. I have been getting rehab, and am almost fully recover from a stroke. Thanks for support. I can not see any leaders older than me working 8 hours a day productively.
All these leaders, church and political, should be humble enough to admit that someone younger could put more into the job than they can. People who can do that are admired.
Biden should step probably step down and let the delegates in the Democratic Party pick another candidate. The liberal and Democratic media is overwhelmingly saying as much. The main reason being: he appeared so feeble and old on the debate stage and does not appear able to maintain the energy needed to win against Trump in 2024. Not because he hasn’t been a great president. Not because he hasn’t accomplished amazing things as president. Biden will go down as a hero in the Democratic Party and in American history for stepping down. There would be no disgrace in such a decision. Biden has been the best president of my lifetime, hands down. But we oh so desperately need a victory in 2024. We can’t let Trump win again. That said, the Republican and conservative media need to call on Trump to step down. Because he is a criminal. Because he is the worst president that has ever been. Because he is showing early signs of dementia. Because one of his main motivations for running for president is to stay out of prison. Because he is a pathological liar and incredibly corrupt and would enable even more extreme corruption to taint the very foundations upon which our American democracy stands. He has tainted the Supreme Court and the entire Republican Party. So when I or anyone else says that both need to step down, the reasons for such are extremely different.
Haekgrrrl, you write above that you felt betrayed when you realized that Biden’s handlers continued to claim he’s not cognitively impaired and you admitted that you do not consume news from a news agency that has been reporting precisely this, as if going to foxnews was beneath you. I did not vote for Trump or Biden in my state’s primary, because I wanted a new candidate from each party. I failed. But I cannot say that I was unaware of Biden’s cognitive decline. I do not consume news only from pro-Democratic sources. Yes, I frequent both foxnews.com and cnn.com, checking both each day. I don’t watch television so I do not watch those insipid news talk shows. But I was aware of Biden’s decline, and I was aware that his handlers have been…, let’s say mendacious, and routinely so over a long period of time.
I am not a trumpist, but I am also not surprised and shocked like a lot of bidenists are at Biden’s debate performance. Checking multiple sources works for me. I am not a news junkie. I spend maybe 20 minutes a day on news on-line, on average. I also look at the Supreme court decisions in pdf at the scotus website, and while I might disagree with some decisions, I do not repeat the left media’s claims that they are dangerous, stupid, or crazy. I don’t read all the decisions, but I do read the important ones, with the concurrence and dissents, and I have found myself agreeing and disagreeing with each justice here and there. I am more middle than left or right.
I am no role model, but I was not surprised at Biden’s debate performance. While his administration has done some good, they’ve also failed; in fairness, Trump also did good when he was president, and got some other things wrong. Rabid anti-trumpists and rabid anti-bidenists are really two sides of the same coin, people who rely on their preferred news source to tell them how and what to think. I think both are dangerous to a working democracy. We need voters who hear both sides and who put the puzzle pieces together in their own minds, instead of relying on a news source to tell us what to think. And news stories often have nuance, and are not as black and white as frequently portrayed by one side or the other.
Biden does not seem to be an outlier in his belief that he can keep doing a job and that he alone can do it. Maybe that’s part of the self belief you have to have to even run for president, I don’t know. But it causes a problem when the system can’t force you to step aside when you should. Reagan probably should have stepped aside sometime in his second term. Justice Scalia should have retired. Same for Justice Ginsburg and Senator Feinstein. It starts to look like we need systems that save these people from themselves. I’m ready to impose age limits for office. There will surely be outliers who could have done the job after that age limit, but there are also population-wide patterns that start to make it too risky on average to have someone of a certain age doing such a critical job. I believe there are mandatory retirement ages for some professions like pilot and air traffic controller, because too much depends on it. Surely president should be in that category.
The church is a different beast. I don’t think you need to still be a solid TV debater to run the church. But I also don’t think the extreme age of the leadership of the church has served us particularly well. That doesn’t seem to have a lot to do with their cognitive abilities, but more that they seem increasingly out of touch with the younger generations and locked into old ways of thinking. Are there other nonogenarians who aren’t that way? I have no idea. I think an emeritus status for apostles would be beneficial partly just because I feel bad they don’t get to retire and are basically locked into their job until they literally drop dead. I say let them retire at 80. Enjoy a rest and go see your families!
Brad D – I agree with you and feel the same way about Biden. He is easily the best president in my lifetime. There is simply no comparison between Trump and Biden on issues, policy, and especially moral character and honesty. I would vote for Biden and his administration over Trump even if Biden was on life support. Biden’s legislative accomplishments are impressive (CHIPS act, bipartisan infrastructure, Inflation Reduction Act, record recovery from Covid, job creation, FTC anti-trust enforcement, foreign policy, environmental policy, pro-worker/labor, etc.). Unfortunately Biden’s brand is damaged due to inflation that coincided during his presidence and for which he is largely not responsible for, no matter how many “I did that!” stickers GOP partisans put on gas station pumps. Blaming Biden for inflation makes about as much sense as blaming Biden for the repeal of Roe v. Wade.
Biden has been very good for Utahns. Just because Biden is old doesn’t mean that he has been bad for younger Americans. Quite the opposite! The American Rescue Plan probably helped Utah more than any other state given the expanded child tax credit and how much assistance when to Utah families given our higher number of children. We got a lot of tax assistance at a time when we really needed it. In rural Utah, we have Forge/Fervo (Millford/Beaver) that is creating new, good paying jobs at a time when Smithfield’s food left. Many such cases!
I think it is very likely that Trump will win re-election. Before the debate I thought it was about a coin toss. Now I think that Biden has probably a 1 in 5 chance. That is a scary prospect. I remember when those close to Trump were saying to “take Trump seriously, not literally.” That is absolute nonsense now given what we’ve seen he is capable of with the J6 insurrection. In every election there are some fear-mongerers and those given to hyperbolic language, but given Trump’s very real track record I think it is reasonable to conclude that there is a non-zero chance that our country’s democracy is harmed irrevocably. I hope the Dems can pick or rally around a replacement candidate that can beat Trump.
A Czech writer’s thoughts capture how I feel when he made the distinction between optimism and hope:
At the moment I’m hopeful for America’s future, but not optimistic.
“Rabid anti-trumpists and rabid anti-bidenists are really two sides of the same coin”
Ah yes, enlightened centrism. The anti-Biden folks often believe the 2020 election was stolen and that vaccines are not safe. The anti-Trump folks are angry at Trump’s blatant and well-evidenced violations of the constitution and the law and his incompetence in policy (what did he accomplish other than tax cuts for the rich?). The former live in an alternate reality based on lies. The latter are in shock and awe at the real.
Brad D and Jacob L
Thank you for the nuanced younger voices you bring to this blog. You have stated things in a way that is helpful, and brings more perspective.
A few of the people in my life who are at the stage of raising their families have the outlook where they feel so smug that they knew for years now that Biden is not aging well, while simultaneously not being able to recognize the good things he has accomplished (all while constantly being attacked by the conservative media machine). They blame mainstream media, while not seeing the biases, and lack of perspective from the podcasters they favor.
They are not able (or willing) to see Trump’s weaknesses. Even the danger he poses.
In my generation, the followers of conservative media proudly called themselves “ditto heads” (a reference to an early popular bombastic radio commentator, Rush Limbaugh). He and Ronald Reagan ushered in so much of what we have today.
Speaking of handlers, the 20-year contractually obligated silence on producers of The Apprentice has been reached. One Apprentice producer, Bill Pruitt, has described what it took to get Donald Trump to focus in order to produce the popular (but stupid) show. His description is reminiscent of how Trump’s inner circle described trying to even give briefings to Trump. You can bet he feels regret.
They are voting in Britain at present. Both three candidates are under 60.
There is a major difference between the stamina and constant decision making required of the president of the USA vs. the president of the church. While the president of the church needs to be lucid and coherent sometimes (when important decisions are being debated and mad), he can be sundowning, or simply out of touch for days at a time and still be available the next day or week for an important decision. The president of the USA may have critical decisions to make at any hour of every day.
Another big difference is the chain of command/succession. If the top two church leaders are incapacitated, then the 2nd councilor and the president of the 12 are in charge. No major policy changes are likely to be undertaken, although there will be some minor differences in their decisions. If the President and VP are incapacitated, the speaker of the house is next in line. If that were to happen now, a massive change in policy and government direction would take place. If the President is just weak and unavailable, like now, then all of the cabinet secretaries can just take a little more power and are unlikely to be overruled.
I want to add support to the comments above about many of the W&T regulars are not consuming a wide variety of media. Comments about the high ethical standards of President Biden are unbelievably laughable if you have been exposed to any sort of straight reporting about him.
Hawkgrrrl,
I think there is a major logical inconsistency in the first paragraph of your first comment. You say, “I felt betrayed when I watched the debate. How dare his handlers continue to claim he’s not cognitively impaired?” Yet lower down in the paragraph you claim, “Biden will surround himself with a competent administration.” His administration is clearly not being straight with the public about a critical matter of national security and policy. That is not a mark of overall competence. I believe that many of his cabinet secretaries have looked the other way and taken on more power rather than invoke the 25th amendment or at least have discussions about its applicability.
One of the biggest failings of the republican senators in 2021 was not getting the cabinet nominees on record about when to apply the 25th amendment to a fading and enfeebled chief executive. I hope that this issue is brought up next year during the confirmation hearings.
el oso,
I want you to know that I watch and hear about conservative media. All my neighbors and friends have been saying Biden has dementia all the way through. In 2020 when I tried to figure out who to vote for, I watched quite a bit of Biden giving press conferences and speaking at length. Of course I watched Trump too. Biden was perfectly coherent at the time, even though all my neighbors were saying he wasn’t because of the edited clips on conservative media. That made conservative media less credible to me.
I believe he has gone down hill quickly in the last few months, and the conservative propaganda has covered it, in a sense, making it less obvious because it’s easy to attribute any evidence to that propaganda.
lws329,
So has the mainstream media become less credible to you in the past week because they covered up Biden’s decline? If he declined rapidly as you theorize, many of them either knew it or should have known it and did not report it. Other sources that have been saying that Biden is in mental decline look much more trustworthy now don’t they? Either they were correct all along, or they were prescient.
I mentioned Biden’s obvious mental decline in the ‘Nacle early this year and many other posters argued against me and said that Trump was as bad or worse. Yet, Trump has 2 hour campaign rallies with no notes while Biden has not had 10 minutes of unscripted conversation in public without major senior moments this year. A couple of years ago, he was better than that, but still showing signs of declining.
lws329, while not disagreeing that propaganda may sometimes come from Fox News, and thus you disregard it, why should I agree with you that propaganda does not come from CNN? It was what we call the establishment media (CNN, The View, The NYT, etc.) who have both denied that Biden was slipping and called out places like Fox News for spreading lies. At least on this issue, Fox News was right, with what you call propaganda, and the establishment outlets were either wrong or silent. Maybe, just maybe, the establishment outlets are as good at spewing propaganda as places you call conservative media? Maybe conservative media is right on a good number of things, and maybe establishment media is wrong on a good number of things. I don’t trust either of them.
Georgis,
I didn’t mention CNN in my post and I do not consider CNN unbiased. Last time I checked AllSides media bias checker and the Ad Fontes Media Bias chart, CNN leaned a full 10 points to the left on media bias. Fox News however, has been sued and admitted in court that they are not a news outlet but an entertainment outlet. They typically lean a full 30 points or more to the right and their material is not only biased that much, but they are not considered reliably factual.
I prefer to get my news from Tangle, which is a podcast that presents news from both the right and the left. I get my commentary from The Dispatch and The Bulwark (anti Trump Republican sources). Reuters and AP news are also considered to be less biased more fact based with less commentary. I compare news from different sources.
I knew Biden was declining, I just didn’t know it was this bad at this point. I don’t disagree that there are doubts about every media source, including those with a leftward bias. Personally, I feel badly that the Republicans left the Democrats to defend our country alone, and the Democrats also have failed.
They’re both too old (Trump and Biden) and they both lied throughout the debate. I find it curious that only Trump gets called out for his lying.
el oso: From what I’m hearing, and I do hear a lot, Biden’s handlers, the people who have been assuring everyone else that he was fine, are limited to a small group of about 10-12 people, his true inner circle (which includes family). An administration is much much larger than that. While I feel that this inner circle betrayed our trust (the cover up is worse than the thing they are covering up, IMO), they didn’t just downplay things to people as removed as I am, but also to members of the administration. To me, they (and above all others, Jill Biden) bear this responsibility. But I also acknowledge that sometimes the people who are the closest caregivers are sometimes unable to see the stark decline as “bad days” become more frequent. I’m just saying that these are interested parties, and they are not being honest, at least with themselves, with Biden, with the DNC, with voters, and with the public at large. After watching the debate, my immediate reaction was that he needs to step down today, turn it over to Harris, and she runs as an incumbent.
Anyone equating Trump’s nefarious schemes with Biden’s clear decline, though, is IMO giving Trump a pass on things that are far worse than having an incapacitated leader at the top. Trump is also diminished, but honestly, his agenda should scare the crap out of anyone listening to the things he and the RNC are actually planning to do in Project 2025, and should also see just how corrupt and out of control the MAGA SCOTUS is. There can’t be a good faith critique of Biden from anyone who is supporting the dangerous schemes of the right.
“Yet, Trump has 2 hour campaign rallies with no notes while Biden has not had 10 minutes of unscripted conversation in public”
Trump rambles incoherently and lies about every sentence. He says incomprehensible things all the time, slurs his words, has long pauses, and has said that we need ID to buy bread, that he ran against Obama, that WWII would start, that Nikki Haley didn’t send troops on Jan. 6, etc. The difference is that Trump developed a cult following who worships him as a god who can do no wrong. Biden has no cult following.
Brad D
Do you believe Joe Biden is mentally fit to be in charge of any organization, let alone the president of the USA? I don’t want to hear a word about Trump. Is Joe Biden fit to be president?
My parents have aged and as they have done so the children have removed from key responsibilities. They no longer drive. They no longer live on their own. They no longer have access to their financial accounts. They no longer have credit cards. And why? Because they lost the mental acuity to make responsible decisions and to take care of themselves.
Do you believe Joe Biden can take care of himself? How selfish is the Biden family for demanding Joe Biden remain as president of the country when he clearly is incapacitated and unable to take care of himself?
Lastly, how dishonest is the Biden family and how dishonest is the media for having claimed for the last several years that Joe Biden was “sharp”. Last month’s debate was an “Emperor’s New Clothes” moment. Joe Biden being mentally deficient was not news. The news was the country got to see their president was unwell. Joe Biden has been unwell for a long time and it has been the Biden staffers and our nation’s media lying to cover this up. Is this not one of the biggest cons? If the media is not being truthful about the poor mental condition of the nation’s president, what else is the media lying about?
I am troubled by Biden’s debate performance but I see no reason to believe that he’s unable to care for himself, or that he has been “unwell for a long time”. I’d be interested to know what your source is for that information. There are a lot of conservative pundits who have been claiming such things, but they have been going to far in their claims for so long, that they have very little credibility with me. Perhaps the things they were saying 4 years ago are starting to be true now, but that is a matter of inevitability and luck rather than some kind of prescience or insider information.
Media sources that I do pay attention to (because they do actual journalism like hire reporters to talk to people) have sources saying there has been an observable decline in the president during the last year. That I find quite credible and is consistent with the publicly available evidence. I wouldn’t have a problem with Biden completing the remaining months of his term in that mildly diminished state. I do have a problem with him and his inner circle clinging to the belief that it’s not going to get worse over the next 4 years.
2) For perspective, in 1776 these were the ages of our founding fathers:
George Washington 44
Thomas Jefferson 33
Alexander Hamilton 21
Nathan Hale 21
John Adams 40
John Hancock 39
Richard Henry Lee 44
Paul Revere 41
Robert Paine 45
Marquis de Lafayette 18
Nathan Hale 21
Samuel Adams 53
Benjamin Franklin 70
Similarly, the following church leaders’ ages are shown here during Zion’s Camp:
Joseph Smith 28
Emma Smith 29
Brigham Young 33
John Taylor 25
Orson Pratt 22
Parley P Pratt 27
Thrum Smith 34
Heber C Kimball 33
Volodtmyr Zelenskyy is currently 46.
Macron is 46 and Justin Trudeau is 52. The PM of Finland (a woman) is 38.
3) When will we learn to retire? RBG was brilliant, competent to the end, but refused to retire despite her age and multiple cancers and look what happened? We now have the Handmaiden’s Tale judge.
4) President Nelson is slowing down. He still seems competent, but remember before COVID he had embarked on a world wide tour? He doesn’t look well enough to do that now. Agreed- there is a massive generational disconnect between the brethren and the rank and file. Frankly, because it has been this way for so long, I fear that even if they called a young pup or two into the Q15, they would struggle for gravitas.
5) The US Presidency has more checks and balances and mechanisms for addressing an ailing President than the church does. Remember the church is a corporation sole and technically- everything is owned by the president. While we have cultural and procedural precedent for working among the Q15 and FP, there were many times that Elder Hinckley and others struggled to creatively steer the ship with Kimball, Benson, and others out of commission.
A Disciple, your comment is banal: Trump is running for President. Your ‘gottcha’ question is pathetic. Study some game theory. Two people are in this race. And you somehow have all the background knowledge? Your media is clearly as biased as anything you claim for the other side. Voting doesn’t work the way you think it does. Again, rational discussion and choices don’t simply ignore one side. Wowzers. Your comments demonstrates everything that is wrong with politics right now: vacuums. And yet you claim the other side is the one operating in a bubble. Please. Bring some real logic to the table.
A Disciple, Biden is running against a conman criminal who has said he would suspend the Constitution, be a dictator on day one, whose campaign has used Nazi symbols to promote itself, who has invited neo-Nazis to dine with him, whose business was convicted of fraud, who has declared bankruptcy several times, who has been believed by several doctors to be in the early stages of dementia, who has violated the Constitution repeatedly as president, who was impeached twice, whose supporters are convicted of seditious conspiracy, who does not have the support of over 40 people who worked for him as president, who has a possible prison sentence scheduled. Plus, if Biden is elected and resigns, we have Kamala Harris to be president, who is highly competent and remarkably well-accomplished. Biden had a nasty cold and jetlag during the debate. My voice would be hoarse and I would be muddling my sentences under those conditions and I’m in my 40s. Biden for four more years. He will win. He will defeat evil. May the doubters start believing.
Brad B, no issues except: “Plus, if Biden is elected and resigns, we have Kamala Harris to be president, who is highly competent and remarkably well-accomplished.” I don’t agree on her high competency and her remarkable accomplishments. I have heard her speak several times, with her laughing when she gets uncomfortable and her inane comments (word salads) that make no sense, and where they might make sense they are embarrassing. You are honest to admit that Biden won’t serve four years. He’ll get elected, inaugurated (is that a verb?), and then die or resign/retire, with Harris becoming president. That’s his plan, I think, but he isn’t honest enough to say it. Thanks!
Brad D,
It was 12 days since Biden’s last trip that he was claiming the jet lag from. As a country, we really need more vigor and exactness in speech from our president, regardless of what real excuses he may have.
I admire your passion and commitment and hope the rest of the country votes that way to keep Trump out. I will be voting with you.
Unfortunately, Biden has fallen 3 more points behind Trump since before the debate. He was 6 points behind before the debate. He is now 9 points behind. He was looking to lose before and he isn’t moving in the right direction.
If the Democrats keep looking through rose colored glasses believing they will win, next January we will be saying Heil Trump!
lws329 and Georgis,
I’ve listened to Biden’s speeches. He has energetic moments. It’s hit and miss with him. But he has hits and is able to make hits. The debate was simply a bad night (and he even had some hits later in the debate that media refuses to focus on). I think it is quite clear in light of Biden’s most recent rally in Madison that he’s staying. It will be Biden vs. Trump no matter how much people say they want another nominee and no matter how much people panic. So let’s just accept it, fully embrace it, and get behind Biden as much as we can. Republican voters have someone who will be the nominee who is a convicted criminal and facing indictments for dozens of other alleged crimes and yet do they panic and hem and haw and demand another nominee? No. They fully embrace Trump and champion him as the nominee. The choice was made during the primaries. Millions voted Trump and millions voted Biden. The question of a different nominee is neither here nor there. You want Trump? No? Ok then get behind Biden with full vigor and energy. Make the case. Sell what product we have. Stop panicking. Stop fearing. Go in headstrong and be proud of the choice you’re making. Democratic panicking is only making it worse. Stop panicking. Biden was said to be too old in 2020. And what did he do? Become a man who delivered on promise after promise, passing one piece of landmark legislation after the other, even bipartisan legislation that was thought to be impossible in this polarized climate. Did his age stop him? No. Will it now all of a sudden? I don’t think so.
Question: If Biden is too old and he’s only three years older than Trump, then how is Trump not too old? Trump, if re-elected, will be Bidens age in his fourth year as president. What then?
And since it’s possible Trump will attempt to run again and again, when does he become too old to be president?
I’m still confused about age in Mormon leaders. If God called a 14 year old boy, and now he calls nanogenarisns, how exactly is he the same yesterday today and tomorrow?