There was a discussion on another LDS forum on what if anything can Faithfull members, Nuanced members, and Ex-Mormons agree upon about the Church. Of course there is a lot they don’t agree upon, but is there anything that everybody can agree upon?
On the forum comments, somebody brought up using volunteer labor to clean the church buildings is wrong. Others brought up that Brigham Young was racist. But I know for a fact there are TBMs that would not agree with these statements. For every item somebody brought up that was universally agreed on, there was another person who found a counter argument.
I don’t think there is anything universally accepted by all TBMs and Ex-mormons. Can you think of anything? So lets change this up. What is the most liberal, non-TBM, shocking thing you heard a true believing, Peter Priesthood or Ronda Relief Society say about the church that you’d have never thought would come out of the mouth of a faithful Mormon?
I was once talking to a member of the Stake Presidency. It was something about church history, I don’t even remember exactly, but I do remember his response. He said “Well, when you put it that way, it makes the Church seem like a cult! ” He then just turned and walked away, clearly uncomfortable with the conversation.
Another time in High Priest Group, I was teaching a lesson based on the “Race and The Priesthood” gospel topic essay. After I quoted the part about Brigham Young’s part in the ban, a brother on the back row, very orthodox, said in a loud voice “it sounds like Brigham Young was a racist!”. Even better than that was the bishop’s reaction, who was sitting next to him. The bishop is African American, and he let out a big laugh, and then buried his face in his hands trying to contain his laughter.
So now it’s your turn. What is the most unorthodox thing you have heard a faithful mormon say?
Wheat & Tares 
My mom has cirrhosis due to an autoimmune disorder. Her doctor recommended that she drink coffee frequently (since studies have shown that coffee can slow the progression of liver disease). When she went to her bishop for advice, I assumed (dreadfully) that he would bring up the story of 7-year-old Joseph Smith refusing alcohol to null the pain from his leg surgery and tell my mom that she shouldn’t break the Word of Wisdom no matter what.
Surprisingly, her bishop wholeheartedly supported the doctor. He told her that living a long life would give her opportunities to bless the lives of others around her, and he said it would be better to drink a few cups of coffee every once in awhile than to die early out of pride.
However, there was a caveat to his advice. He told my mom that she should treat coffee as medicine. Because of that, he recommended that she stick with decaffeinated coffee so that it wouldn’t be “habit inducing”. My mom still can’t stand the taste of coffee, but at least she gets to live another day.
I think a vast majority of exmos and ABMs would agree on:
• Mormons are a peculiar people (although exmos would say that’s not strong enough)
• Mormons are so busy that service tends to be too inward oriented (I’ve heard this many times at many levels)
When I was bishop the missionaries were teaching a man who said he would get baptized if he didn’t have to give up coffee. He really gave the missionaries a hard time about how illogical the WofW is. Anyways I told the missionaries to baptize him anyways and I told the stake president we were going to baptize him – in a meeting with the other bishops in the stake. He said fine coffee really isn’t a big deal. I was shocked – this SP is almost fundamentalist.
Also – in a meeting with all SPs and bishops in the Phoenix area a mission president was speaking and he said he’d rather have a mission full of masturbating missionaries than missionaries who were super righteous but only knew how to play video games. A member of the Q12 was present and didn’t say anything…
Elder Soares, General Conference, April 2020
The translation process of the Book of Mormon was also a miracle. This sacred ancient record was not “translated” in the traditional way that scholars would translate ancient texts by learning an ancient language. We ought to look at the process more like a “revelation” with the aid of physical instruments provided by the Lord, as opposed to a “translation” by one with knowledge of languages… The Lord’s help in the translation of the plates—or revelation, so to speak—is also evident when considering the miraculously short time Joseph Smith took to translate them.
Your “cult” comment reminded me of something my TBM daughter said recently. She was dumping water out of plastic water bottles and she mentioned the conference talk when the speaker shared how he chose to follow the prophet in smashing his plastic water bottle, carefully replacing the lid and tossing in recycling. My daughter’s comment: “that was ridiculous! It made us look like a cult!!”
My great grandmother who lived in Monroe Utah in the early 1900’s was told by her doctor and bishop that she needed a heart medication which was fairly exensive at the time or as alternative she could drink a cup of coffee with a splash of brandy every night. Which she did for years, she lived to be 93 yars old.
Something I would hope we could all agree on is that kindness and love would supersede all.
However, Bishop Bill you are correct. Even some TBM’s would say that obedience and righteousness are more important.
It baffles me how the topic of kindness is absent, and love is seldom mentioned at an LDS church. Both are absent in any of the “worthiness” interviews. In preach my gospel, they are briefly glossed over. We are told love is the first and second great commandments, but then placed in 26th place in talks and lessons. Furthermore, it is hijacked with statements tying God’s love with conditions. Placing conditions on them, supersedes the 1st and 2nd commandments.
The restored gospel/church is supposed to clarify the “confusion” of the world and wrong scripture interpretation of other denominations. It would be refreshing to have a decision maker state your family, your health, your (insert topic), is more important than the church or a church teaching. However, that was never my experience. I am happy that a some of you had a nuanced leader who was practical and not married to the General Handbook.
Why is there so much debate on a simple principle and the base of the gospel of Jesus Christ?
I suspect none of these bishops were promoted to Stake President or Mission President, and if were they would be reprimanded (with love ?) by their superiors.
As has already been alluded to somewhat in other comments, most active members that I’ve talked to have agreed that the setup of wards can make members too tribalistic and too busy to associate with neighbors at times. I can even recall a Church Newsroom release years back that conceded it was a fair criticism. If the neighbor or nonmember across the street isn’t already in your ward, it’s possible you know people in your ward five blocks away far better. It shouldn’t be that way.
The opinions on how to remedy that varies greatly. Some people say just to invite these people to activities and let them experience all these things with you. That’s great from a missionary standpoint but I don’t think it frees up enough important time to do things with others outside of Church activities. Another is just to make time for it. That’s easier said than done. I really like what a friend’s northern Utah County stake is currently doing. They’ve eliminated all weekly Church activities for one week every month to allow more family time. I think this is a great accommodation that allows for reaching out to others in an unforced way.
How many TBMs actually believe that polygamy and the black priesthood / temple ban were instituted by the Lord? I think if you could read the minds of the most active TBMs you’d discover that they too think those two were wrong.
bonus point: does anyone agree with the policy that states that food can only be warmed, not cooked, in a meetinghouse kitchen? 🙂
josh h,
My tbm friends believe polygamy and the black priesthood temple ban were inspired until the current prophet was inspired to change them. It’s all about follow the prophet.
While most TBM are more than happy to comply with the mandate to use the clunky full name of the church, I think we can all agree that calling it a victory for Satan is just over the top, especially in light of the concurrent meet the Mormons campaign.
Also while most TBM probably ascribe to a “if you build it they will come” attitude I think even the most TBM are slightly skeptical of the current temple building spree, especially if they have been first hand impacted by Ward and stake consolidation.
Curious if Jack would agree.
Enough local governments agree with the “warming only” rule that it doesn’t matter how many members or ex-members agree with it.
A stake president we had back in the 90s said that he was appalled at how judgmental the church members were acting, and that he would put ashtrays outside of every door to the church until they understood that everyone is actually welcome at church.
In the context of advancing religious liberty, I was research assistant for a BYU law professor who was writing about cults. We were discussing the indoctrination practices of cults. Things like ‘love bombing’, rigidly controlled schedules, cutting off access to the outside world. He gave me this huge grin and said, “sounds like the MTC!”
lastlemming has it right re the warming/heating “controversy”. That is not a Gospel Truth – the gov’t requires food-preparation-site inspections and food-handler permits if cooking is allowed. To get around that, the Church instituted the no-cooking reqmt.
I am no attorney and I might be wrong, but it seems to me that cooking for crowds might draw state attention, but cooking irregularly for small groups should pass under the radar. For example, serving a meal for dozens or hundreds of people might trigger food safety rules, but what about cooking for oneself and friends? For example, a couple of months ago our kitchen was being renovated and we had previously signed up to feed the missionaries. We brought the food to the church building, prepared it, and fed six of them there. If what was improper, one should realize that these missionaries eat at our church building all the time and keep a fair amount of food in the fridge and in a cupboard. I think the absolute rule comes not from the state, but from the church’s lawyers who are looking at risk avoidance instead of risk management. Of course, one might wonder what constitutes cooking versus warming.
As someone who got food poisoning at his first zone conference, I have no argument with the no cooking rule. Furthermore, I don’t want to be in the position of criticizing the Church for ignoring the SEC, while encouraging it to ignore food inspectors.
Elder Oaks gave such a good talk on missionary work in 2002. This felt like a pretty big rebuke to those just trying to hit numbers and I think about it a lot in the context of the church and sincerity/motivation for church-related fellowshiping or missionary efforts:
Another great excerpt from this talk:
I’d like to believe that most people (in the church and out of it) can see the need for sincerity in their actions, even if they don’t always live up to their ideals.
Elder Dallin H. Oaks, “Sharing the Gospel”, General Conference 2002
Chadwick:
“Also while most TBM probably ascribe to a “if you build it they will come” attitude I think even the most TBM are slightly skeptical of the current temple building spree, especially if they have been first hand impacted by Ward and stake consolidation. Curious if Jack would agree.”
Thanks for the invitation to respond, Chadwick. I do have worries on occasion about how things are done in the church–but a lot of my fears are assuaged by the confidence I have in the apostles as the Lord’s anointed. And so, while I might question the use of church recourses for the temple building program–that is, if we were talking strictly in terms of the operations of a corporation–my confidence that the program is inspired is grown from a perspective that situates church leaders as high priests first and corporate executives second.
This doesn’t answer your question but I think most of us would agree that Mormons are Christian and that Trinitarian Christians are kinda weird in their antagonism towards that fact.
In fact, I tend to notice that we band together whenever an evangelizing mainstream Christian demonstrates their ignorance (and so small share of hypocrisy) when they start preaching their superiority across any of the major Mormon-related subreddits.
We had a mid-30’s aged, introspective Relief Society president whose day job was “soccer mom” and whose husband was employed by the church in their building management administration. We had a friendly association, but we hadn’t really connected. We are out in the Midwest where a college town meets the farms.
She earned mad props one Mother’s Day because she taught a thoughtful lesson on Heavenly Mother specifically for Mother’s Day, specifically to include every sister.
Canadian Dude, I would agree with you. I remember once reading a blog post somewhere on the bloggernacle describing how the author, in spite of her growing deviancy from orthodox faith, would always feel patriotically Mormon when encountering an evangelical Christian attacking Mormonism for being false christianity
I was speaking with a bishopric member about the restoration of the Melchizedek priesthood dates and he said „it’s like it never happened” and laughed.
“it sounds like Brigham Young was a racist!”. Even better than that was the bishop’s reaction, who was sitting next to him. The bishop is African American, and he let out a big laugh, and then buried his face in his hands trying to contain his laughter.
Wow, the cognitive dissonance is strong with this one…