I just got back from two weeks in Bavaria & Austria, and one of the best things about this trip was that I ignored current events, including the impending election, pretty successfully. I didn’t listen to or read news almost at all. What a nice break that was!
Except…I was a tourist in Germany, and one thing about tourism in Germany is that their Nazi past (and the nationalist fervor of leaders like Ludwig II and the beloved composer Richard Wagner) comprise a huge percentage of the tourism draw. Even in Austria, which was much less forthcoming about its Nazi past (99.73% of Austrians voted in support of Hitler’s annexation of their country, although only 10% had voluntarily joined the Nazi party), our Fraulein Maria tour was also basically about Nazis (Don’t kiss Rolf, Leisl! He’s a Nazi!). The movie almost white-washes the country’s Nazi fervor to make them seem far less willing to go along with native son Hitler’s ambitions.[1]
Add to that the fact that fascism is on the rise worldwide, including in Germany, as is anti-fascism, and basically, it was impossible not to ruminate on the lessons from history as well as the similarities and differences from today’s autocratic tendencies and the rise of an actual dictator, Hitler vs. one who claims he’ll only be a dictator on “day one.”
I’ve already had one rebuke from commenter and blog favorite Josh H for making this comparison, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t bear further discussion and scrutiny. In fairness, I’ll also be pointing out the differences, not merely the similarities. A key difference that can’t really be compared is what Trump hasn’t yet done in his political career. How far will he take things? What will he do in the future? We can’t know for certain. With Hitler, we know. This is one reason that it’s justified to be cautious when comparing anyone to Hitler. Arguably, Hitler was one of the most evil human beings to live, bearing responsibility for the murder of 2 out of ever 3 Jews living in Europe. What we can compare is largely related to tactics both employed in seizing political power, rhetoric used, and other methods.
How are they similar?
Staging a Coup. One of the places we visited in Munich was the site of the Beer Hall Putsch. This is where Hitler attempted to overthrow the government in 1923 by stoking their anger over the country’s loss in WW1 and the restrictions of the Versailles treaty. Hitler falsely claimed they had not lost the war and that democrats and socialists had betrayed the country, controlled secretly by Jews. 4 police officers were killed in the confrontation, along with 15 of Hitler’s supporters. Hitler, who marched at the head of the coup (unlike Trump), very narrowly escaped death as the man marching next to him was fatally shot. Eventually when Hitler rose to power, he erected a monument to the “martyrs” of the failed coup (his followers, not the police who were killed) and required all citizens to salute the monument when they passed it. Today there are golden cobblestones that mark a path down a nearby alley where dissenters would skirt the monument to avoid saluting traitors. Those caught avoiding the monument were sent to Dachau concentration camp for being “asocial” or political dissidents. Trump parallel: There are quite a few similarities to the January 6th insurrection. Trump has also promised to pardon his jailed supporters and has referred to them as “hostages.”
Not being held sufficiently accountable. Hitler by all rights per German law, as a traitor, should have been convicted of treason and executed; however, he was only sentenced to 5 years in prison, and only served 9 months before he was paroled, during which time he wrote the popular Mein Kampf which increased his popularity. Trump parallel: Trump’s role in the insurrection is less direct and includes more shades of gray. However, the slow-rolling of his prosecutions means that none of these important legal matters will be decided before the next election, making it entirely possible that he could be re-elected. Hitler learned that he must operate within the system rather than trying to overthrow it from outside using agitators, so he focused on political maneuvers and using the levers of democracy to increase his party’s power.
Charisma. While Hitler was a bit of a failure as a youth, he was a gifted orator who electrified his audiences with his ideological speeches. Hearing what actual citizens said about him from quotes taken at the time, it was eerily similar to some of the things Trump followers say about him. It sounded more like they were trying to touch the hem of Jesus’ robe than trying to see a politician speak. Trump parallel: Both leaders created a cult of personality following.
Populism. Hitler’s message was focused on the needs of rural, working class Bavarians primarily. He energized their fears and grievances and harkened back to a time when Germany was the dominant power in Europe, not the economically ruined shambled it was after its WW1 ambitions had failed. Trump parallel: Trump has, in many ways, changed the alliance of blue collar workers from the left to the right by focusing on populist messages, no mean feat for someone who was raised as a billionaire.
Telling “the Big Lie.” Hitler’s big lie was that Germany did not really lose WW1. Trump parallel: Trump continues to falsely claim that he won the 2020 election and that it was stolen from him, a lie that is now a requirement for politicians on the right to support.
Conspiracy Theories. Hitler stoked some of the most outrageous anti-semitic conspiracy theories, including the idea that Jews drank the blood of children. Trump parallel: The rise of QAnon coincided with Trump’s rise, as well as all sorts of conspiracy theories that have led to violence.
Slogan of “Make [America/Germany] Great Again.” Both men literally used the exact same slogan.
Racist Rhetoric. Hitler’s platform was explicitly anti-semitic, although he also expressed anti-black sentiments. Trump parallel: Trump has used racist rhetoric, albeit less jarring than Hitler’s (which was 80 years ago).
Calls to Violence. Both individuals used right-wing militia groups to attack dissenters and governments alike, stoking their anger with violent rhetoric. Unlike Trump, Hitler had the advantage of many who had just fought in WW1 who wanted to believe his lie that they didn’t really lose the war and who wanted to fight against the restrictions placed on Germany by the Versailles Treaty. They believed, wrongly, that their country had been stolen from them. Trump parallel: Trump has celebrated violent actions against his opponents, threatened BLM protestors with violence, joked about Paul Pelosi’s home invasion attack, and lionized individuals who killed protestors. I was alarmed when he suggested “those second amendment people” should take care of his opponent Hillary Clinton, and that type of “joking” rhetoric was just the tip of the iceberg.
Political Retribution. Hitler jailed his opponents and anyone found to be a political dissident. Some of these individuals were shot extra-judicially as traitors, although many were simply detained in deplorable conditions in concentration camps like Dachau. (Between 1933 and 1938, only 500 prisoners at Dachau died; after 1939, 43K were killed there). Trump parallel: Trump has stated that in a second term, he plans to exact retribution on his enemies and to use the justice system against them. He has claimed executive privilege to do so, a legal question that will be decided by the conservative-majority SCOTUS he created.
How are they different?
Expansionism. Hitler sought to expand Germany, to overtake neighboring countries. He occupied those countries and enslaved their citizens, forcing them to labor for German families. Trump difference: Trump wants to close the borders. Although he joked (?) about buying Greenland, and making Mexico pay for a border wall that benefits the US, he doesn’t appear to have any deep interest in conquering other nations. On the contrary, he seems to prefer making deals with other nations individually (Hitler did carve up Poland with the USSR, so..) and to exit alliances that he sees no use for like NATO.
Personal Violence. Hitler, a former soldier, was at the front lines in his own coup attempt. He frequently said he would kill himself if his ambitions didn’t work out, which is ultimately what he did. Trump difference: Trump likes to talk tough, but when push comes to shove, he wants others to get their hands dirty on his behalf. Like most of us, he loves living too much to put himself in harm’s way.
Views on Vets. Hitler was particularly good at redirecting his former comrades-at-arms to rally behind him, as he had fought with them in WW1. Trump difference: Trump has no interest in vets unless they can do something for him. If they died in the line of duty, he has called them “suckers and losers.”
Ideological Fervor. Hitler’s platform was based on his own vision for Germany, his strongly anti-semitic views, and his ideas. He used his platform to convince others. He used anti-semitic laws to erode support for Jews by isolating them and stripping away their rights. He led; Germany followed. Trump difference: Trump is transactional with his voter base, the Evangelical right. He is willing to do their bidding in exchange for their votes. His own values start and end with himself and his own interests. He is not an ideologue or visionary.
Age. Hitler was young when he rose to power. His political ambitions started when he was only 30 years old, in 1919. When he died by suicide, he was only 56 years old. As explored in the Phillip K. Dick counterfactual The Man in the High Tower, if the Allies had lost the war, Hitler and his ideology might have led the world down a completely different path. Trump difference: Trump was 70 years old when he was elected and would be 78 if elected again for a second term. Even if he wins a second term and then refuses to leave office (if that somehow works this time), he’s not going to live forever, and thus far, none of his offspring or key deputies seem to have the same charismatic pull he has.
Historical Context. Hitler rose to power in a time when Germany was between two wars and undergoing huge upheaval and economic disaster. Trump difference: Trump was elected during a fairly stable time in a country with strong democratic institutions. While he has worked to erode trust in those institutions, he has still largely worked through those systems, while pushing their boundaries.
Things that are frankly too early to compare include the lasting legacy and impact of the Trump presidency. There has been serious damage done to trust in institutions. Plans like Project 2025 would only further erode our institutions, if allowed to happen. While there are more dangers to a second Trump presidency than there have been from any previous US president in my lifetime (per my own reckoning), that doesn’t make the dangers on par with what Hitler wrought. These are different times. And I can sit here and state my opinions freely because Trump does not have 90% support. We do still have free speech and a free press.
But, if we do not learn the lessons of history, we are doomed to repeat them. The parallels here should be sobering at least. The fact that the majority of current church members continue to support Trump may not be such a surprise since the majority of German church members (like their fellow citizens) supported Hitler. German Mormons specifically cited the 12th Article of Faith as justification to support the Nazi party, including viewing teen activist Hellmut Huebener who was excommunicated by his local leaders (and executed by the Nazi party) as a traitor.
“The Church knew what was going on in Germany, but emphasized cooperating with the Third Reich.” – David Conley Nelson, author of Moroni and the Swastika: Mormons in Nazi Germany
This is a depressing thought, and frankly even worse than the tacit support of Trump that so many current church leaders have displayed. And yet, one thing I left Germany believing more than ever is that anyone living in 1930s Germany would have had an incredibly difficult time bravely opposing the government Hitler installed. We all like to think we are stalwart heroes whose values are unshakable, but at heart, we are social creatures and cowards, often bound to compromise when society’s values differ, even when we know they are not right. We find the justification. We rationalize our silence.
Naziism, while not wholly without American supporters, was not our nation’s original sin. That was slavery, which some now want to water down in our school’s curriculum rather than talk honestly about it. Actually, that’s not the extent of it. Many events from our nation’s slave-owning past were never really taught openly in schools. Movies like Gone With the Wind make the slave-holding south seem like a quaint, lovely place where enslaved people were treated like family. In Germany, by contrast, it is illegal to deny the holocaust or make the Nazi salute. Maybe our nation’s day of really reckoning with our past is still in our future.
- Do you find it helpful or distracting to compare like this?
- Do you think we are learning from history as a church? As individuals?
- Do you find these parallels troubling or see the differences as sufficiently mitigating?
- Is there anything in these comparisons and contrasts that you see differently or would add?
Discuss.
[1] One story that our guide shared was about the filmmakers requesting to use the main square to film Nazis marching. The city said no, that they didn’t want people to associate them with Nazis. The filmmakers countered that instead they would just use the actual footage which was far, far worse as it showed Austrians in a fever pitch, shouting and waving swastikas in support of their chosen leader.
I guess you should look back to how your own parents treated you growing up, to reveal your dissatisfaction with authority. Keep in mind, the Congressional politicians have more powers than the presidential powers.
“Do you find it helpful or distracting to compare like this?”
I find comparisons like this to be generally unhelpful as they fail to recognize how it was that Hitler gained power over the German government. The step that ultimately mattered was the banning of political opposition. The Reichstag Fire Decree made opposition to the Nazi party illegal. The Enabling Act of 1933 destroyed representative government and made Hitler dictator of the country.
Nazi Germany came about because the Law was changed. Personality and political energy alone are insufficient to destroy representative government. What destroys representative government is the ruling party decreeing that its political enemy cannot be allowed to participate in the political process. Pay attention to that. Worry less about protests and people throwing fits.
Another aspect of Hitler’s rise to power was the development of the Nazi Security Service. Here is where the Trump / Hitler comparisons completely fail. For where Hitler ran a police state, Trump has the security forces of the government opposing him. May I remind everyone that (1) The Durham Report showed that the FBI acted improperly in supporting the Trump / Russia collusion hoax that was spun by the Hillary Clinton campaign against Trump and (2) In 2020 more than 50 senior US intelligence officials published a letter claiming the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation. They were lying. As shown in the recent Hunter Biden trial, the Department of Justice knew the laptop was legitimate and evidence from the laptop was just used to convict Hunter Biden. The letter by the US intelligence officials was election interference. They lied and their lying protected candidate Joe Biden.
We can all agree to worry that Trump is not trustworthy, that he lies and behaves as a juvenile. But we do not need to worry that Trump is going to seize the power of the government. Trump utterly failed to do that the last time he was President! Just one example. In summer 2020 Trump was frustrated by the Covid Task Force ignoring his priorities yet he refused to fire Fauci or Birx. Instead of being authoritarian, Trump has shown over and again that he is deferential to the establishment order.
What ought to concern us is the threat that the power of the people to be represented in the government and to voice opposition to the ruling party and to speak freely will be curtailed. Pay attention to that.
Even though I believe comparisons between Trump and Hitler are ridiculous, I found your piece to be very well written and I got sucked in and read the whole thing.
Honestly, especially for this audience, I think a better comparison would be Trump vs Brigham Young. I hope you give that a shot.
A large majority of German Mormons supported Hitler and a large majority of American Mormons support Trump. That’s the most disturbing parallel. We could really use a blunt Uchtdorf talk on this at the next Conference. He ought to know. I have absolutely no doubt that Trump regards Mormons who support him as useful idiots.
Everyone ought to read or re-read Hannah Arendt’s book The Origins of Totalitarianism. It feels like the 1930s all over again.
Is an essay like this helpful or distracting? It is absolutely helpful. Only I wish your piece didn’t feel at times apologetic, seemingly hopeful not to invite disagreeing comments from the likes of the Josh H’s, etc. who might read this piece. In this vein, I must ask where Josh H, etc. have acquired their expertise to such an extent that their comments would be taken to be nothing more than mere armchair opinionism.
Here is a sampling of what today’s experts in this area are writing, blogging, podcasting, etc., comparing Hitler/Nazism and Trump/Trumpism. These are some of the experts I’ve sought out over the past 8 plus years and continue to listen to today. I’ll leave it to the reader to do their own due diligence.
Dr. Jason F. Stanley (Yale): How Facism Works, 2018.
Drs. Daniel Ziblatt & Steven Levitsky (Harvard): How Democracies Die, 2018.
Dr. Ruth Ben-Ghiat (New York University): Strongmen: Mussolini to the Present: 2020.
Dr. Peter Fritzsche (U of IL-Urbana): Hitler’s First Hundred Days: 2020.
Dr. Nancy MacLean (Duke): Democracy In Chains, (2017).
Thomas M. Nichols (US Naval War College): The Death of Expertise, 2017.
Edward L. Bernay: Propaganda: 1928.
Dr. Richard Hofstadter: (Columbia): Anti-Intellectualism in American Life: 1963.
I don’t find things like this very helpful, because it’s not clear to me what new insight about Trump this is going to reveal. Donald Trump has been the most insatiably talked about person in the US for 8 consecutive years. Between his comments about women, his actions in assaulting women, his comments on the disabled, minorities, immigrants, fraud convictions, many of his closest associates with felony convictions, fraudulent charity, fraudulent businesses, infidelity, lack of understanding about the government, complete scientific ineptitude, distain for veterans, pretend Christianity, and narcissism, I’ve seen all I need to see. I don’t like the guy. To find out that Hitler also did some similar terrible things doesn’t really add much to my understanding.
The problem with comparing anyone to Hitler (or anyone to FDR, or Lincoln, or Stalin, or anybody) is that with a sample size of 1 it near impossible to say anything about the what any of this means moving forward (as the OP notes). With all the differences in their situations, who is to say what things still matter, and what things don’t. It would be far more useful to study 50 different people that rose to become populist dictators, and look at similarities and differences, and probably to study some that “came close” but didn’t. Clearly that is outside the scope of a blog post.
Hitler was smarter and more able than Trump. This may be the thing that saves us if he is reelected.
Hitler really happened. But what happened during his time was simply extraordinary, unprecedented, and nothing since him has happened on a comparable scale. Some apt comparisons to Hitler may include Hideki Tojo, Mussolini, and Stalin. That said, great article and great read.
Trump is better compared to Silvio Berlusconi, the late former Italian president who was incredibly corrupt. Is Trump a fascist? He certainly has some fascistic tendencies and admires authoritarians around the world, but I’m reluctant to call him that. Trump hasn’t risen to the level of actually murdering political opponents or banning opposition parties, or promoting ethnic irredentism, key components that defined fascism. Americans are too wedded to free speech and freedom to criticize for them to allow a mass banning of criticism of Trump and his allies, or any other politician really. Trump is a clown, a stooge, a criminal, a corrupt person, an enabler of small-scale violence, sure. But a mass murderer or promoter of large-scale warfare he is not.
Dave B writes, in part: “… a large majority of American Mormons support Trump …” And the sky is blue and grass is green. So what? I don’t know that Trump has a large majority in my ward, far from the Wasatch front. Who says a large majority of American Mormons support Trump? A large majority of American Mormons live in the US West. If most Idahoans, Utahns, and Arizonans support Trump, is that because of the Church or because they’re western, and Westerners away from the coast support Trump? I don’t think that Mormonism is causing people in the US West to support Trump. I think that Westerners in the US support Trump for non-Church reasons.
While I did not like Trump in 2016, I knew that he had no organization to carry his ideas through after his term was over. That is still true. Yes, a lot of Republicans like Trump, but he has no heir, and he has no organization as the Nazis did. He has the Republican party, but when Trump is gone they’ll find someone else. I hoped that they would do that in 2024. There are still reasonable voices on the conservative side, just as not all Democrats are of the AOC or Maxine Waters or the Bernie Sanders varieties. I don’t see Trumpism as a long-term threat to our democracy, but I do fear some of the long-term effects of the proposed anti-Trump medicine than I fear the ailment itself.
Dennis, instead of giving us a long list of articles to find and read, a short summary would be more helpful. Nobody is going to bother looking up those articles to read them. If people are really interested, the short summary tells them which articles are most relevant. Respect the time of readers of your comment and give us a sentence or two about those articles.
jkenttt, I think your psychoanalysis of Hawkgirl is just trying to blame her for not liking Trump. As long as I have been reading her blogs and comments, I have seen zero problem she has with authority, and have heard enough to suspect she was raised by pretty liberal parents. So, keep your armchair psychoanalysis to yourself and leave psychology to people who know what they are talking about.
Hawk, I think you did a pretty good job of comparing in a short blog. I would just add that Hitler was smart enough and capable enough to actually make Germany great, while Trump lacks the real leadership to to anything except run companies into bankruptcy.
My husband and I have some interesting experiences in that we lived with Germans and Austrians who had experienced Hitler’s rise to power. We lived in Berlin in 1973-4 and my husband’s mission was to Austria, so he spoke fluent German. Our neighbors and people we knew there were anxious for younger Americans to understand *how* Hitler happened and not just the horror of the end result. It was like part of their personal penance to teach the younger generations how it happened as part of preventing it from happening again.
One thing that we heard a lot from the old German neighbors from when we lived in Berlin, was that once Hitler decided to work within the system, he was very effective in getting people jobs and bringing prosperity back to Germany. There was a *reason* they loved him besides just his charisma. He was brilliant and figured out how get the country up and functioning again. To name just one thing Hitler did that made Germany great was that he had the idea for a car manufacturer for smaller practical cars that average people could afford and thus we have the Volkswagen, which means people’s car (folks wagon) They had been left starving after WWI, and so of course they loved someone who was able to put food on their tables. This was why after WWII, America rebuilt Germany, so war wouldn’t just happen again.
This prosperity in Germany under Hitler was the reason Austria voted to become part of Germany. They saw the prosperity Hitler brought to Germany. He really did make Germany great again.
Which brings me to the biggest difference I see between Hitler and Trump. Trump is a looser. He is a coward. He is ineffective and can’t lead a company without it going bankrupt, so how the hell could he lead our country into being great again. The economy is better under Biden than it was under Trump. Hitler was evil personated, but Trump is just a wannabe.
Trump won’t become dictator because he is just too incompetent. And he is too old and too close to senile. He won’t live long enough because he is just getting started. Compare to four years
But that doesn’t mean we do not need to be seriously worried about the rising fascism in the US. Trump is not leading the fascism, he is merely using it to gain power. Trump is a user, not a leader. He will use the religious right when he is an atheist, and he will use the working poor while laughing at them. But we need to be seriously worried about Christian Nationalists, and a few other right wing groups that Trump has manipulated into thinking he is some kind of Savior. When Trump’s followers compare him to Jesus, we need to be seriously worried about those followers.
And Trump’s incompetence does not mean that there is no problem electing him. It is part of why we should be terrified of him and his worshippers. He did some serious damage during his first term in reducing taxes on the very rich and getting rid of regulation that prevented big manufactures from dumping crap into our environment and he did some real damage in keeping global warming getting worse. A second term will just make things worse.
You know, a better comparison for Trump than Hitler might be that crazy guy you talked about in a previous post named Ludwig. Totally self centered, check. Capable of leading his country into bankruptcy, check. Likes expensive buildings with gold furniture, check.
Do you think we are learning from history as a church? As individuals?
Key historical learnings from the Mormon perspective center around increasing the acquisition and exercise of power. Under RMN and DHO, the move to orthodoxy is inexorable. Even Hitler didn’t require his minions to wear secret underwear.
I argue that average recommend carrying Mormons demonstrate levels of sycophantic behavior similar to the early adherents of Naziism. Both systems penalize those who question and desire to engage in civil dialogue. A key difference is that Mormons use more subtle passive-aggressive punishment techniques (LDS shunning is an art form), rather than train rides to Dachau.
Do you find these parallels troubling or see the differences as sufficiently mitigating?
Definitely troubling. To many, it is far too easy to allow a supposedly benevolent despot to do our thinking for us. DJT tries too hard to be an alpha male.
Tyrannical leadership, regardless of circumstance, uses the power of the pulpit to mold public opinion – often based on sheer propaganda. Speaking of which, on June 2nd I attended a F&T meeting where the bishop expressed gratitude that the LDS Church had gotten “out in front of the Internet by spreading the truth”. In what universe does anyone believe Mormonism has benefited from the Internet?
jkenttt: “I guess you should look back to how your own parents treated you growing up, to reveal your dissatisfaction with authority.” I’m not sure how that’s specifically relevant to a conversation about Hitler and Trump. In our current political environment, there is more of a tendency to vote against what we hate than for what we love. What authority do you see me as being against? I’m against tearing down our public institutions and ignoring the constitution. Is that evidence of my parents being authoritarian? “Keep in mind, the Congressional politicians have more powers than the presidential powers.” There are by design checks and balances, but we are at a time of transition right now. Project 2025, if implemented, will greatly expand the executive branch’s powers. Another interesting parallel I didn’t mention in the post is that at the time of Hitler’s rise, their legislative branch was also completely ineffective due to gridlock and polarization, leaving an alley open for someone to take charge and alter the structures of power. All this was at a time when Germany was in far more dire straits than the US is now with a worthless currency and looming global depression.
Dave W: “I don’t find things like this very helpful, because it’s not clear to me what new insight about Trump this is going to reveal.” I think what’s helpful is to consider what it reveals about the supporters, and to come to terms with the awful realization that we might not have behaved so differently than the average German. As Dave B. said, German Mormons supported Hitler, and American Mormons supported Trump. I didn’t specifically mention that J. Ruben Clark was a virulent anti-semite who made extremely hateful comments about Jews during this time. But overall, my sense is that we are in our own different crisis. Our situation is different. Trump is no (ideological, darkly visionary) Hitler; America is no (expansionist, defeated, humiliated) Germany. But people are people, susceptible to rhetoric that stokes their core fears and beliefs. Trump is transactional and narcissistic, but he’s also (like most bullies) a deeply insecure coward.
gebanks: Agreed on that front, except that Trump will surround himself this time with those who will do his bidding. As frankly appalling as Bill Barr was, seemingly unwilling to rein in Trump’s worst impulses for 4 years, he finally did encounter a line he would not cross. Trump has learned not to include people like Barr in future, and somehow, enough politicians on the right have gotten over their scruples in a quest for power that they are now willing to do what they are told, even though it clearly violates the conscience they used to have.
Georgis: Your observation that Mormon support of Trump is driven more by living in the western US (not including CA, I assume) is an interesting one (vs. the religious alignment that is linking White Christian Nationalists to Trump). Are you saying that libertarianism is a stronger driving force than religious supremacy? That seems plausible, but I hope I’m not mischaracterizing what you are saying. Can you elaborate?
I tend to agree with Anna that there are important lessons to be learned from Austria & Germany, and those lessons are that it’s complicated. They supported Hitler because aside from committing genocide and murdering millions (which we see clearly now), he did improve the economy. As I pointed out last week, even residents of Dachau who saw trains full of people enter the camp, nobody come out, and smelled and saw the fruits of the crematoria while they walked to church in their Sunday best, were able to convince themselves that what was happening was not happening. It reminded me of the 1980s movie The Burbs, in which perfectly normie suburban people eventually come to realize the neighbors are cannibals, but it’s really hard to believe it and to be believed. Our minds protect us by creating excuses for the things we see and that are too hard to accept. It isn’t happening, and if it’s happening, it’s not as bad as we think, and if it is as bad, it’s deserved. Our minds create a cocoon around the unimagined horror.
And yes, it’s true that Ludwig II is a parallel to Trump on some level, another important thing about Ludwig II is that his nationalistic tendencies are seen as a precursor to Germany’s ambitions in the 20th century. That, and the fact that Richard Wagner was also a big time anti-semite and German nationalist. Even without Ludwig II, though, German ambitions were firmly rooted in the supremacy of the First Reich, the Holy Roman Empire. They basically WERE Europe for twice as long as the original Roman Empire (1000 years). To go from that to the humiliation of the Versailles Treaty was a huge blow. It’s like being downgraded from #1 to “sh*thole country” overnight.
Oh, and I should clarify that while Anna’s right that my parents weren’t authoritarian, they also were not liberal by any stretch. Like a lot of Silent Gen parents, they are quiet people with conservative values who see duty, self-reliance and hard work as virtues. But as a youngest child, they were pretty much free range parenting by the time I came along (they were in their 40s when I was born). Did they support Trump? Doubtless they did, but not as a first choice. They would have liked someone more palatable I’m sure, but I don’t see them getting past the Fox News bubble to ever vote for *gasp* a Democrat.
A Disciple – When you use the phrase “Russian Collusion Hoax” you give away the game. Team Trump’s collusion with Russia was very real. We’ve had a couple of posts about truth these past few days, so it’s worth revisiting the truthfulness of what actually happened. We might start with the senate intel report of 2016:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/five-revelations-senate-intel-report-2016-russian-interference-n1237184
Trump tweeted himself in 2018 that his son, Don Jr. , met with a Russian lawyer affiliated with the Russian government to get information on Hillary Clinton in Trump tower. This was not a hoax, this happened. Whether this behavior rises to the standards of campaign finance law violation or obstruction of justice is another matter. Or maybe this was just attempted collusion, like the attempted J6 insurrection. But claiming this is a hoax is about as accurate as Bill Clinton claiming he did not have sex with Monica Lewinsky.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-dictated-sons-misleading-statement-on-meeting-with-russian-lawyer/2017/07/31/04c94f96-73ae-11e7-8f39-eeb7d3a2d304_story.html
The Durham report did assert the FBI acted improperly and gave too much weight to the Steele Dossier (e.g. Crossfire Hurricane). FBI attorney Kevin Clinesmith plead guilty for altering a FISA wiretap application against Carter Page.
With regards to the Hunter Biden laptop, if you read the actual letter that was issued, these officials do not claim that that it was definitively Russian disinformation, rather that it appeared that it might be:
We want to emphasize that we do not know if the emails, provided to the New York Post by
President Trump’s personal attorney Rudy Giuliani, are genuine or not and that we do not have
evidence of Russian involvement — just that our experience makes us deeply suspicious that the Russian government played a significant role in this case.
If we are right, this is Russia trying to influence how Americans vote in this elecion, and we
believe strongly that Americans need to be aware of this.
Notice the language does not match what you assert in your post. In my view, this language was warranted because we know the Russians did indeed execute an extensive election interference operation to help Trump beat Clinton.
https://www.npr.org/2020/08/18/903616315/senate-releases-final-report-on-russias-interference-in-2016-election
One other thing you mention: Trump did not fire Fauci. Trump did not fire Fauci because he was deferential to the establishment order. Trump could not fire Fauci because Fauci was not a political appointee. This is why Project 2025 is so comprehensive (and dangerous) in my view. It is blueprint for broad, expansive, totalitarian powers being concentrated in the executive branch under the pretext of a deep state cabal.
Hawkgrrrl, Trumpism is not rampant in my eastern US ward as some at W&T suggest it is out west. My ward is an inner city ward with lots of diversity of all kinds, but we lack a lot of Utah/Idaho/Arizona transplants. A sibling lives in a DC suburban ward, much less ethnic diversity and more western transplants, but these are more educated and more affluent people willing to move, think differently, etc., and there is no overt Trumpism in that ward. Another sibling in another city, more rural in the south, the ward is very white, but there is no visible Trumpism in that ward. I keep seeing here about Trumpism running deep in the LDS wards in the west, but do people really talk politics in testimony and sacrament meetings, and in EQ/RS/SS classes our west? Anyway, yes, I think that Trumpism in Zion (Idaho, Utah, Arizona, etc.) might have more to do with being non-coastal Westerners than with being Mormons. Yes, there are strong Trumpists in the east, but I don’t know if Trumpism permeates the church like some posters seem to suggest. I have two sons in the Mountain West at school in YSA wards, but they tell me that they don’t hear politics in their YSA wards. I am neither a sociologist nor a political scientist and I lack data, but I question whether Mormonism correlates with Trumpism. Sure, some axe murderers might be Baptists, but that doesn’t mean most Baptists are axe murderers. I think that non-coastal western Presbyterians, Baptists, or Buddhists might be more Trumpist than their Presbyterian, Baptist, or Buddhist co-religionists in Massachusetts, for example.
I think an important question is whether Trump is a cause or a symptom. I tend toward the latter (while Hitler was much more the former). What I worry about Trump is everything and everyone behind him: individuals, institutions, billionaire-funded think tanks, organized movements (White Christian Nationalists being the scariest and most prominent, to me at least), and foreign governments (Trump’s pal Putin, most notably). All of them will be around long after Trump is gone, and by giving them direct and indirect access to power who knows how extensive the radical changes to government, education, business, and American society in general we’ll end up with. Trump is just the tool they are using for their own ends.
Georgis: Thanks for clarifying. You probably have an interesting point. “Do people really talk politics in testimony and sacrament meetings, and in EQ/RS/SS classes our west?” It probably depends on the ward, but I can state with personal experience that the amount of politics being talked and its increasing hysteria definitely increased or at least surfaced more since Trump was elected. The smarter ones use dog whistles that are nonetheless easy to see through, often attacking socially progressive positions on gay or trans rights, but I heard a woman shriek in RS that Romney was a traitor to the country (she also stormed out when we discussed teaching GC talks by women because they weren’t apostles). I also talked with a childhood friend from PA who said that he was shocked by the rampant conspiracy theories at Church (I suddenly saw people who otherwise seemed reasonable swallowing the most ridiculous nonsense hook, line and sinker). I overheard people talking to each other at church about things like Trump rallies and Turning Point USA.
I guess going back quite a few years, I heard someone over the pulpit denounce the rape victim from Stubenville who had “ruined the life” of her attacker. So I suppose awful people have always been there, but they used to be quieter about it and there seemed to be fewer opportunities to hear their terrible opinions. It’s not the same as an Evangelical congregation, for sure, in terms of endorsing candidates from the pulpit, but it’s still there.
Georgis – Being a Trump supporter is highly correlated with being LDS. I recommend you look at The Economist “Can You Build An American (Trump/Biden) Voter?” The #1 predictor of whether someone is a Trump voter is if they are Evangelical. But the #2 predictor (and not far behind) is if they are LDS. Personally, I think this is a huge problem for the church and represents a big failure on many levels. To be frank, the LDS members embrace of Trump (higher in 2020 than 2016) is a major reason why we don’t attend at present time. I’m not saying the church should weigh in for any particular candidate, but I think what they could have done is simply issue a statement of fact (e.g., the election wasn’t stolen) in an effort to combat the Big Lie. The church can and should act as an arbiter of truth for some who might not hear much truth in the news ecosystem they immerse themselves in. But alas, I think the leadership’s foray into encouraging members to get vaccinated has sapped any willingness to cross the far-right base which comprise the older block of the church membership.
Whether Trump and Hitler map perfectly or what a Trump 2nd presidency might mean is open to debate and conjecture. My sincere plea is that we don’t run this experiment. JD Vance is on Trump’s shortlist to be VP apparently and is at the moment on of the most MAGA pro-Trump boosters. But it’s worth noting that even he wondered whether Trump was America’s Hitler.
Jacob L
Here is the AP News summary of the Durham report that investigated the FBI investigation of Trump: “The FBI rushed into the probe without having any evidence that anyone from the Trump campaign had had any contact with any Russian intelligence officers. It identifies by name the Russia experts in the FBI and other agencies who were never consulted before the investigation was begun and says that had they been, they would have said there was no information pointing to a conspiracy between Russia and the campaign.” https://apnews.com/article/durham-report-fbi-trump-clinton-2016-campaign-f3039e651eeb35a09091c363419e6766
And then there is the Mueller investigation. 22 month of investigation found no evidence of collusion. https://www.npr.org/2019/03/24/706318191/trump-white-house-hasnt-seen-or-been-briefed-on-mueller-investigation-report
And how did this rumor of Trump colluding with Russia start? It was the Hillary Clinton campaign paying for a “Steele Dossier” that was found to be filled with lies and innuendos: “The Hillary Clinton campaign and the Democratic National Committee helped fund research that resulted in a now-famous dossier containing allegations about President Trump’s connections to Russia and possible coordination between his campaign and the Kremlin, people familiar with the matter said.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/clinton-campaign-dnc-paid-for-research-that-led-to-russia-dossier/2017/10/24/226fabf0-b8e4-11e7-a908-a3470754bbb9_story.htm
Here is AP News reporting on the “Steele Dossier”: “The dossier has been largely discredited since its publication, with core aspects of the material exposed as unsupported and unproven rumors. A special counsel assigned to investigate the origins of the Trump-Russia probe charged one of Steele’s sources with lying to the FBI and charged a cybersecurity lawyer who worked for Clinton’s campaign with lying to the FBI during a 2016 meeting in which he relayed concerns about the Russia-based Alfa Bank.” https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-2022-midterm-elections-business-elections-presidential-elections-5468774d18e8c46f81b55e9260b13e93
What is true is that since the Clinton campaign only had to pay a fine for creating the Trump / Russia Collusion hoax one might conclude that it was the greatest “dirty trick” a political campaign ever pulled.
A Disciple, a GOP-led Senate inquiry released a nearly 1000-page report in August 2020 that found an extensive web of contacts between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin. The Mueller report laid out in fine detail 10 areas of possible obstruction of justice by Trump, although he did not find anything that rose to the level of conspiracy between Trump, his campaign, and the Russian government. Mueller argued that he could not indict a sitting president. But he testified before Congress that Trump could be charged with obstruction of justice once he left office.
Trump and his campaign colluded (collusion doesn’t have a legal definition) with the Russian government to win the 2016 election. There is overwhelming evidence of this. It is quite likely we could get Trump on conspiracy but he obstructed justice. You would be screaming bloody murder if it were Hillary or Obama who had done what Trump and his campaign did in 2016. I don’t care whether you say you’re a Trump supporter or not. The fact that you minimize and downplay and obfuscate Trump’s misdeeds makes you a shameless Trump supporter in my book. And that’s disgraceful behavior.
A Disciple- I do want to commend you for using high quality sources in the discussion. With regards to the Durham report, I think it is notable to remark on nuances of the language, especially in the quote cited in the article:
Russia experts in the FBI and other agencies who were never consulted before the investigation was begun and says that had they been, they would have said there was no information pointing to a conspiracy between Russia and the campaign.
What I think is worth drawing attention to is that this phrasing does not in the least exonerate Trump, nor his wide-ranging exculpatory or victimhood claims (e.g., “No collusion”, “witch-hunt”, etc.). What this statement is saying is simply that there was insufficient evidence to launch the investigation according to Russian FBI experts. But it doesn’t refute the established fact that was Russian interference, nor does it refute the notion of extensive Russian collaboration between Team Trump. Mueller himself pushed back on Trump’s mischaracterization of the report:
“The president was not exculpated for the acts that he allegedly committed,” Mueller told the House judiciary committee, adding that Trump could theoretically be indicted after he leaves office.
“We did not address ‘collusion,’ which is not a legal term,” Mueller added. “Rather, we focused on whether the evidence was sufficient to charge any member of the campaign with taking part in a criminal conspiracy. It was not.”
https://www.politico.eu/article/mueller-refutes-trumps-no-collusion-no-obstruction-line/
Trump publicly and explicitly encouraged Russia to hack Hillary Clinton’s emails On or around the same day, Russians targeted her accounts:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/trump-asked-russia-to-find-clintons-emails-on-or-around-the-same-day-russians-targeted-her-accounts
Trump is a master of inverting the truth and convincing his marks that he is the true victim. His post 2020 election cries quickly morphed from “Stop the count!” to “Stop the steal!” which is the rally cry he used to quite literally attempt to steal the election himself.
When we talk about truth, Trump, and religion, I believe that repeating Trump’s false claims, whether ignorantly or purposefully, does great harm on other claims of truth, including spiritual claims. If someone is going to tell me that the election was stolen, I am going to immediately discount or be highly suspect of pretty much every other truth claim they might assert.
I can tell you who in my ward will vote for Trump just by the beaded masks and cup masks they wore to church during the pandemic. I know even those who aren’t that extreme still mostly vote for Trump. People act shocked if they find out I voted for Biden. He is the enemy after all. They may not state political parties or candidates at church but their politics are evident in every talk because of their focus and obvious judgements. It’s obvious when they go over the proclamation of the family over and over, and when they push the Self Reliance program.
Most people in my area of Northern NV are unapologetically MAGA. It’s just the culture here. It doesn’t have to be out and out discussed at church for that to be true.
There’s an assumption in my ward that everyone’s a Republican and a Trump voter. Here are a collection of statements I’ve heard in class in the 12 years I’ve been in my current ward, every statement from a different person:
I’m missing a lot–politics comes up frequently, especially in EQ. Again, though, this isn’t just one person. The 8 listed items above came from 8 different people (7 men and 1 woman). Resistance against masking–even in the weeks immediately after the First Presidency letter telling us to mask up–was incredibly prevalent, with maybe half of the ward refusing to mask up.
I’m certain things aren’t as bad in less “conservative” areas, whatever conservative means these days.
Comparisons to Hitler, PolPot, or Stalin are often repudiated by so-called Conservatives as over the top because the tally of deaths is so high and so horrific. This allows groups such as the MAGAturd GOP to distance itself from the comparison. However, if we set those horrors aside, and observe the economic disasters that Fascism brings with it (except for the oligarchs…although one could easily argue that they too will eventually lose as the social and economic pits open). One disturbing theme in this discussion is that Hitler (please insert any Fascistic leader’s name) achieved economic success and made Germany great again. In fact, after a brief initial improvement, which one might argue was inevitable due to the widespread boom of the Roaring Twenties and the rise of the military-industrial complex, the German wages and well-being did not match the rest of the West’s increases and the impact of the Great Depression was particularly devastating to Germany.
Fascist governments like Spain, Italy, Portugal, Argentina, etc do benefit the oligarchs but at the cost of the destruction of the Middle Class and the greater impoverishment of the working classes. Orban of Hungary has not made Hungary great again: Apple is a larger economy than Hungary and inflation is consistently high. That is why Fascistic enterprises always need a scapegoat. (In the US this has consistently been POC and immigrants. For the Church it’s the “world”.)
I typically avoid discussions on election politics, and I’m not getting into Hitler v Trump.
I am interested in the comparisons between 1930s Germany and current USA. I want to comment on your comment that Nazism is Germany’s original sin, while slavery is America’s original sin. Both of them are rooted in racism, i.e., the idea that Aryans/Northern Europeans are the superior race and everyone else is inferior.
Race-based slavery is America’s sin. The justifications for slavery included such horrible ideas like Blacks were lesser, not human, were so low that they benefited from slavery. Even when slavery ended, there was no equality for Blacks. Racism kept other races down, at the mercy of white people.
Nazism blamed Germany’s woes on the Jews, the mentally unfit, the homosexuals, the Romani. Anyone who wasn’t a strong, healthy, blue-eyed, blond person was the cause of Germany’s problems. It’s racism, classism, tribalism. Whatever you want to call it, it’s the idea that people who are “other” are causing problems.
Eugenics, the science of racism, originated in America. It became a subject of wide discussion beginning around the turn of the 19th century. California passed a series of sterilization laws based on eugenics, i.e., the idea that people who are unfit physically, mentally, or morally should not be able to reproduce. The laws began to be widely applied in the late 19-teens and early 1920s. California sterilized about 20,000 people while those laws were in effect. In 1933, shortly after Hitler came to power, the Nazis enacted a eugenic sterilization law, patterned on California’s law, that targeted “unfit” people and ultimately sterilized more than 350,000 people. Source: Kline, Wendy, “Building a Better Race: Gender, Sexuality, and Eugenics from the Turn of the Century to the Baby Boom” (2001 University of California Press) at p.50, 122 and 103.
The idea that government can improve the human race by choosing who reproduces and eliminating the unfit came from the racist justifications for slavery and informed Germany’s atrocities in seeking to eliminate entire groups of people as “lesser.”
That’s the heart of fascism. The idea that someone has less of a right to exist, less of a right to make their own reproductive choices, is more of a burden on society. The idea that some lives just don’t matter. That’s the basis for both American slavery and Nazism. Blaming an entire group of people for society’s problems is so dangerous. The Nazis blamed the Jews. Christian Fascists blame gays and especially transgender people.
I should do a post on eugenics. Polygamy was a breeding program.
Cassidy Hutchinson testified to the January 6th committee that Trump wanted to go with the January 6th insurrectionists to the Capitol. His secret service escort refused to let him go. He actually got physical with them trying to go, but, you know, he’s an old man and there were more of them and he didn’t go down to the Capitol as he wanted.
Thank you to those who sent messages of support. This morning I had a visit from 2 physiotherapists from the hospital to check on me, and give me more exercises. Should be pretty good in 3 weeks.
Trump has shown his lack of respect for the rule of law, in elections, and his trial. He is talking about withdrawing from NATO and other international treaties. He will give Ukraine to Putin. We know how much he respects women, how will he work with the new president of Mexico who is also an envirmental scientist. The world has been hotter each month for the last year, tipping point. Trump is withdrawing from helping the world to fight climate change.
Many right wing claim he is anti abortion. The number of abortions in America has been dropping for 30 years but trump turned this around with an increase of 50,000 in one term. And with his extension of the global gag rule an extra 2.2 million, abortions, 2700 maternal deaths deaths, and 90.000 extra people with aids, mostly children.
Many of his advisors have been in think tanks working to make Jan 6 th more effective, and his presidency more effective, so for example he has a list of 50,000 people in military, fbi, national guard and procutors officers, who he plans to replace with people loyal to him, so he can go after his opponents. Just like his hero Putin does.
But he doesn’t kill people? 2700 maternal deaths?
I agree with Anna–that we have to look at the economic conditions in Germany between the world wars. The inflation had gotten so bad that the old turn of phrase, “a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread,” was a living reality for the Germans.
It makes me wonder how much those conditions actually made it possible for someone like Hitler to rise to power. It could be that the most extreme reigns of terror only arise out of the most extreme conditions–because that’s the only way to get a lot of good people to do really bad things for a righteous cause (as they suppose).
Jacob L wrote, in part: “I think what they [Church leaders] could have done is simply issue a statement of fact (e.g., the election wasn’t stolen) in an effort to combat the Big Lie. The church can and should act as an arbiter of truth for some who might not hear much truth in the news ecosystem they immerse themselves in.”
I don’t know if I want the Church fact-checking everything and telling people what happened. The truth for which the Church should act as arbiter should probably be limited to divine truth. The Church is not an American institution (although many general leaders seem to act that way). If the Church issues statements of fact on an American election, should they also issue such statements on a Russian election? or on whether a contestant’s incorrect answer on Jeopardy or Wheel of Fortune was actually correct? or whether a diamond mine in Mozambique might pollute the water? or whether Gibraltar should be returned to Spain? or that using a particular pesticide is safe? I think the Church should generally stay out of politics and just about everything that isn’t religious. One might retort that the Church has gotten involved in other political matters, but do we believe that two wrongs make a right? I think the Church should stay out of politics and out of most current events. The mission of the Church does not include explaining the news to Americans.
Please don’t think that I believe Trump’s claims and that is why I question Jacob L’s position. The people voted, every state certified their elections, the electors were properly chosen, they voted, and their votes were correctly counted. Biden won: the end. If some people believe otherwise, I don’t see a role for the Church to speak on this non-Church issue. As for the vaccination issue, we try to teach correct principles, but we also let people govern themselves.
Georgis: “I think the Church should stay out of politics and out of most current events. The mission of the Church does not include explaining the news to Americans.”
Agreed. This is why the Church should disband the Deseret News. As long as that paper is still being published, it means the Church is very much in the business of interpreting current events with its own spin, and is also selectively weighing in on (and influencing) political issues. If the Church is acting as a self-appointed arbiter of truth, it is not doing that job fairly, honestly or equitably.
On fascism. It arose at a time when Britain and France had reached their zeniths as colonial powers. It was a time when WWI conflicts were reaching some form of settlement and there was lingering destabilization and dissatisfaction throughout Europe. It was a time when the Austria-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires, which consisted of around 30+ different ethnolinguistic groups, were breaking apart and turning into ethno-states. It had only been about two or three generations ago that Italy and Germany had fused the different duchies and principalities together to become unified into nation-states. Italians and Germans had attempted their own forms of colonization in Libya and Tanzania, but to little avail. It was a time when Bolshevism had toppled the Czar and socialism was beginning to spread throughout Europe.
Mussolini rose to power and invoked the deep Roman past of Italy, promoting the idea that the Italian people had a former glory to restore and relieve. He adopted the Roman fasces symbol of an axe and a bundle of sticks to promote his beliefs. It was about leadership bundling together a mass of deprived nationals to bring them to power through authority, order, warfare, and relentless pride. Mussolini’s vision involved mobilizing black-shirted mobs to violently attack political opponents. Mussolini became the admiration of Hitler and other like-minded Germans who believed that Germany had been wronged by the Treaty of Versailles. They believed in a greater Germany that would include the many German-speaking populations throughout Eastern Europe and Russia. They invoked a past of German greatness from centuries ago that had been undermined by a variety of non-German peoples as well as communists. Operation Barbarossa, named after the 12th-century German King who was involved in the Crusades and various military campaigns into Italy, was the name of Germany’s invasion of the Soviet Union and to repopulate the western part of it with Germans.
I see fascism in a completely different context with causes that simply don’t really exist (so much) today, particularly in the US. Colonialism is no longer. Territorial expansion is no longer. The non-Native American populations of the US have no distant past in the Americas to invoke. There is no concept of terra irredenta (unredeemed land historically occupied by one’s ethnic group) in the US. The US has not been involved in any sort of international territorial dispute, conflict, or war really since the 1800s when they went to war against Mexico. Arguably, Hawaii was a territorial conflict with Japan. But that’s it. Contrast this with Europe where collective memories of ancestral land in small regions have driven massive conflicts. All sorts of ethnic cleansings and social engineering experiments have taken place over the last 100 years in Europe resulting in the map we see today.
The US had racial slavery. But Europe had serfdom. Abolished long ago in Britain and France. But in Russia, serfdom was abolished about the same time as slavery in the US. In Germany and Italy it was abolished a few decades earlier. Yet the wounds of serfdom remained open in Central and Eastern Europe for decades after. It was because of serfdom that different forms of socialism would come to have such large appeal, be it Bolshevik socialism, or nationalist socialism.
The OP proposes that both Hitler and Trump used charisma to build cults of personality. That’s true, but in very different ways. Hitler used calculated, dramatic speeches to draw audiences in and elicit emotional responses. Trump’s public speaking style, though, is boorish, clumsy, rambling and at times offensive. But this is part of his appeal to his base, which sees him as an aspirational hyper-masculine archetype; a man who says what he wants, does what he wants, takes what he wants, and sleeps with who he wants without consequences or apologies. Hitler, as I understand, was very restrained and disciplined in his personal life, which starkly contrasts with Trump’s unhinged personality and reckless private behavior. I suppose charisma in pursuit of demagoguery can manifest in a number of different ways.
Jack Hughes,
I suspect the difference between Trump and Hitler in terms of personal charisma and attraction to the audience might have to do with the difference between the American and German audience.
In America we are individualistic. Trump represents this hyper independence that is desirable on the right as a wealthy, self reliant, dominant, offensive white male that is going to do whatever he wants.
I suspect Hitler represented what was seen as most desirable in Germany at that time, namely personal restraint, discipline and ultimately dominance. The dominance is the same as is the attraction of his personality to parts of his society.
Not being American I was not aware of this claim to be individualistic. Can you give me another example please. Last time I was in California I saw suburbs where all the mc mansions looked identical including the color. I was amazed but not impressed.
Last time I was in Germany I was impressed that they had a philosophy where the government seemed to be saying to citizens we trust you so we won’t over regulate you.
We went to a children’s playground where 3 rivers joined. There was no fence to stop children falling in. There was a float you could throw in.
There are no speed limits outside built up areas. You have to be very aware of faster cars if you are doing 100mph, before you pull out to pass someone, because someone doing 150 could be coming, particularly on autobhans. Exits from the autobahns are called ausfarts which is amusing to an aus.
At neuenswanstine around the main courtyard there is a 4ft high stone fence with a 100ft drop on the other side. No danger sign. People were sitting on the wall.
The road toll in Germany is 3.27 deaths/100.000 citizens, Australia 4.26, USA 11.78.
perhaps it was different in the 1940s.
Geoff,
Wow! You really bring some perspective! We are so blessed by your comments. Please take good care of yourself.
This is a topic we could ponder and write about, because yes, we do believe we are individualistic (but maybe we deceive ourselves). It’s kind of this pioneer idea of the American dream and manifest destiny that it’s in an individual’s power to succeed. People do all these things to be different, but then everyone does them…
I admit to being a woman that’s lived in a few western states and I don’t know anything about Germany. I wonder if our legal system is different resulting in the safety differences you cite. It occurs to me that here, if there was a park like that someone would drown and the parents would sue the municipality that provided the park.
As far as the differences in the death toll on the freeway I don’t understand the difference or why it’s different. Can you explain it? I am guessing you can’t regulate safety as much as we imagine? Or is it just fewer drivers and a smaller country?
Thank you for expanding my parochial views.
Having traveled in Germany, France, Italy, Scotland, England,
I believe it is harder to obtain a drivers license in some other counties than here in the U.S.
I also noticed drivers seem to be better on average than drivers here in the U.S. For one thing, I noticed on their freeways they stayed to the right (or left) using the other lane for passing.
Additionally, Europe has more public transportation than the U.S. does.
I think Lois’ point about the fact that far fewer people drive in most European countries is part of the distinction. In the US, you have to drive. In Europe, only the privileged are driving regularly. Here in AZ, I can report that many drivers are pretty bad, inattentive, probably uninsured, driving cars that shouldn’t be on the road, or ridiculously huge cars with drivers who think they own the road. It’s not great. But there are always many factors when comparing cultures.
Back to the Hitler discussion, one “benefit” Trump has is that he can learn from previous world leaders & dictators like Hitler. Trump is transactional, not ideological, so even if he’s maybe personally racist, I don’t think he has any interest in targeting people based on race (or genocide or any such thing). But he has learned some of these lessons (or has a similar temperament) with things like how to use rhetoric and lies, how to stoke fear, how to energize misinformed people, even how to use religion (early on, the Nazis did this), how to avoid consequences even when one’s behavior is traitorous, how to change the institutions to suit one’s purpose, and the types of people to surround oneself with.
Lois, your comment reminded me of the time I travelled in a rental car driven by a US friend as a student, including on motorways, here in the UK. I was assigned navigator (before the days of satnav). I was constantly having to ask her to move back to the inside lane once she’d done with overtaking. Vehicles were really really not meant to be overtaking us on the inside lane. A nerve wracking experience, but we did all survive it!
Americans drive about twice as much as Western European countries. (France, Germany, UK, Australia (I know, not European).) This accounts for the majority of the difference in fatalities. More time spent driving is more opportunities for fatalities. You may now return to talking about Hitler.
It is just shocking to me that someone like Trump would/could ever be elected as POTUS. I believe a big factor is our modern media choices. No longer are we solely reliant on professional trustworthy journalists—the Walter Cronkite types.
Just one more memory….
The best parking award goes to:
Amsterdam (The Netherlands)
Cars would be parked parallel along the streets with just an inch or two of space between them. (this was long before Teslas)
Slavery was our nation’s second sin. The original sin was the treatment and attempted genocide of indigenous peoples. First interactions were transactional, at best, and domineering, if possible. As colonists gained a stable foothold and ambitions expanded, national policies included not just displacement, but bounty hunting and genocide (An Indigenous Peoples’ History of the United States; Roxanne Dunbar Ortiz, 2014: and The First Way of War: American War Making on the Frontier, 1607-1814; John Grenier, 2005)
Georgis- You wrote:
If the Church issues statements of fact on an American election, should they also issue such statements on a Russian election? or on whether a contestant’s incorrect answer on Jeopardy or Wheel of Fortune was actually correct? or whether a diamond mine in Mozambique might pollute the water? or whether Gibraltar should be returned to Spain? or that using a particular pesticide is safe?
I don’t think these hypotheticals are at all similar to the mass delusion and severe consequences that a signficant amount of the US church population are under (e.g., Trump won and Biden is an illegitimate usurper). On the merits, I tend to agree with political neutrality, broadly speaking. But it’s a pretty big deal when the FBI has to raid a man’s home in Provo which tragically results in his death because he had been making credible assasination attempts against the sitting POTUS, and who also was an active member of the ward in significant leadership callings. The rot in the church on this matter is pervasive and corrosive in my view.
To answer your hypotheticals:
Russia – LDS missionaries have been completely withdrawn from Russia since 2022. All proselyting basically ended since 2016. I would counter that church is an American institution and will be as long as the headquarters are in Salt Lake City and the bulk of its active, tithe-paying members live in the United states. The church should say clearly that such they are not an operatives of the US government and lobby for religious freedom to proselyte and clearly denounce the curtailment of this right.
Jeopardy or Wheel of Fortune – The correct or incorrect answer to a game show question is of little consequence morally or spiritually to the church or nation. This is a red herring.
Environmental concerns – You raised the point of a diamond mine in Mozambique. I would say that yes, the health concerns of the community should be a church concern. This is also why I think it was correct for president Nelson to promote vaccination against Covid and that it was safe. Last year, the church donated water to the Great Salt Lake and issued this statement:
The Great Salt Lake and the ecosystem that depends on it are so important. The Church wants to be part of the solution because we all have a responsibility to care for and be good stewards of the natural resources that God has given to us. We invite others to join with us to help.
Territorital disputes – I don’t think it would be appropriate for the church to weigh in on a border/territory dispute. That is a matter of opinion and contested history and would be of limited impact or benefit to the church as an institution or its members.
I don’t see this issue in the same way you do. I see it more like Sam Brunson when he discussed whether the church should speak out against Trump:
https://bycommonconsent.com/2023/05/12/the-significant-moral-consequences-of-trump/
I’m late to this discussion, sorry. One point I haven’t seen in the comments is about the social pressure we feel in society to comply, even if we know it’s wrong. I find this really interesting when we look at the church and see how its members are one of the most supportive groups of people, just behind evangelicals, for believing in and voting for Trump. There are some parallels with Trump and Hitler. There are a lot of lies flying around with GOP individuals calling Biden names like Hitler. I think that most members of the church have no clue about who or what Hitler really is let alone what socialism, communism, or even being a liberal mean. These words have been co-opted to mean “a terrible sinful person” without any real thought as to what they really are. Most members don’t know their own history, let alone American or world history. The Constitution is inspired of God, but what that means has been distorted by the likes of Sen. Lee to mean what he wants it to and many members blindly follow him. They forget that it created a Federal system, that it may limit Federal government but it does not promote states rights over federal rights. Also while it didn’t really recognize “All” people at first, it’s now, using the bill of rights, being applied to “All” of “We the People.” Trump and his followers I don’t think like that.
So the real question to me is how someone like Trump can come along with is over the top misogynist, lying, bias, behavior and attitudes trampling the rights of so many people and then have so many members of the church follow him as if he’s actually one of God’s servants. The social pressure in our church you’d think, would help people see right from wrong but it seems to justify instead of correct MAGA political views.
Trump may share some qualities with Hitler. He definitely lack some as well. But, just as church members in Germany in the 1930’s didn’t discern Hitler, church members today are repeating not being able to discern Trump. That’s our real problem.
Not sure why you are choosing to post politics on a web page for discussing LDS doctrine…
hnorth1: Then you didn’t read the post and you haven’t read this blog before.
hnorth1,
I wonder if you have ever attended a Gospel Doctrine class in Utah, especially one with the demographics leaning towards 60+ and older. In my ward politics and doctrine are synonyms. Trump is regarded as the 4th member of the First Presidency. I figured if I can learn to love these folks, I can love just about any demographic in the church… Work in progress…
Up pages Dave W Asserts that the difference in road deaths is because Americans drive more miles. This did not sound right so https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate this one lists countries and shows deaths/100.000 population and also death/billion vehicle kilometers.
Germany 3.7 deaths/100.000 people and 4.2 deaths/ billion vehicle kilometers
Australia 4.5 4.9
USA 12.9 8.3
Canada 5.3 5.1
So even taking into account that Americans drive further they are still twice as likely to die on the road than Australians, or Germans.
I wonder whether the church with its obedience training, and republican culture (anti gay, anti abortion, anti woman, has not in effect been grooming members to accept trump.
In most countries the republican type (extreme right) make up less than 10% of the population, and we can not understand how most members can be so mislead. If you are contemplating joining the church and find that most voted for trump, the message is these are not the kind of people you want to be associated with.
The Torah mitzva of Moshiach clearly defined.
As the Mishna has its Gemara, so too the Prophets have their Holy Writings. This the Way, how to correctly learn the T’NaCH.
Talmudic common law not a surface reading of law books! Common law stands upon the יסוד of learning by means of outside בנין אב precedents. Herein explains how the Gemara of the Talmud learns each and every Mishna!
The 3 major prophets compare to the Avot of בראשית. The 12 minor prophets: to the sons of Yaacov toldot. In the Holy Writing the Book of תהלים likewise an Av Sefer. A ‘Gemarah’ of Holy Writings, to this ‘Mishna’ prophetic sugya Isaiah 11:1-9: תהלים צ: ונבא לבב חכמה; the tefillah of Moshe Rabbeinu.
The xtian perversion of their bibles which translates in all cases: prayer – in the stead of tefillah. Wrong, just that simple. Tefillah a tohor time-oriented Torah commandment. Prayer a praise like reading prayers found in the Book of Psalms. Reading “Psalms” not a tohor time-oriented Torah commandment. Just that simple.
The dedication of the tohor time-oriented Torah commandment of Moshiach: The unification of the divided Houses of Yechuda and Israel. Isaiah 11:10 – 12:6: According to Midrash, the Moshiach must give Goyim two commandments: like lulav and building a Sukkah. Which “Goyim” does the Midrash refer, seeing that all Goyim reject the revelation of the Torah at Sinai? Answer: the 10 Tribes of Israel which rejected the korban Moshiach dedication of the House of David to unify the divided houses of Israel.
Herein explains the second sugya ישעיה יא:יא – יב:ו. Moshiach a tohor time-oriented commandment stands upon the Torah בנין אב||precedent|| of korbanot. King David the Av Moshiach and all the kings as found in the Books of מלכים toldot Moshiach. The mitzva of Moshiach applies equally, straight across the board, to all generations of Israel. To do this Torah time-oriented Moshiach commandment: Israel does not “wait for the coming of any Moshiach”.
The abomination of the Xtian church waits for the 2nd coming of JeZeus. This Av-tumah avoda zarah share no part with the Torah time-oriented commandment of Moshiach as a mitzva to all generations of the Jewish people to live and do in their own lives upon this Earth.
This tohor time-oriented Torah Moshiach commandment – in our hands to Create the World from nothing. תמיד מעשה בראשית. Wake up and smell the coffee.
The relationship between the Prophets and the Holy Writings is analogous to that of the Mishna and Gemara in the Talmud. The Prophets serve as the “Mishna,” while the Holy Writings function as the “Gemara.” The structure of the Prophets and Holy Writings parallels the Avot (patriarchs) and the Toldot (12 Tribes, sons of Yaakov) in the Torah. The Book of Tehillim (Psalms) serves as a “Primary text” in relation to the Prophetic books, while the Toldot Books of the Tanakh function as support texts, similar to how the Gemara supports the Mishna. The Mishna has greater authority than the Gemara.
The secondary Moshiach kings in the Book of Kings – do they follow the Av Moshiach of the pure/righteous David, or the Av Moshiach of the impure/unrighteous Saul? This qualifies as a crucial distinction. The kings that follow in the line of the Av Moshiach David are seen as the legitimate, pure Moshiach rulers. Whereas those who follow the line of the Av Moshiach Saul are considered impure and illegitimate.
The toldot Torah commandments compare to the house of Shaul. Whereas the Avot Torah time-oriented commandments compare to the Av Book of בראשית and the Av Book – the Siddur. Both command tohor time-oriented commandments rather than positive or negative commandments which do not require k’vanna.
The mitzvah (commandment) of Moshiach applies to all generations of Israel, not just a passive waiting for a future event. The “abomination of avoda zarah” refers to the Av tumah (impure spirits which emanate from the heart) that defiles the 2nd Commandment against worshiping other gods/soul of Man. The mitzvah (commandment) of Moshiach applies to all generations of Israel, not just a passive waiting for a future event.
King Shlomo (Solomon) followed the Av Tumah (impure spirit) of the Moshiach Shmuel, not the pure Av Moshiach tohor (righteous) spirit of David. When King Shlomo profaned the Torah dedication of the true Moshiach by building an assimilated “House of Wood and Stone” – essentially an idolatrous structure, he failed to uphold the Moshiach’s Torah dedication to pursue justice through the common law Sanhedrin courtrooms. The Torah defines “FAITH” not as blind belief, but as the judicial justice system where the Sanhedrin courts enforce fair compensation of damages inflicted by one Israelite upon another.
Shlomo’s actions a clear deviation from the true Moshiach model laid out by the mussar of Natan the prophet & David. The focus T’NaCH common law mussar & Talmudic common law halacha, razor sharp k’vanna upon ruling our people with judicial justice. This the central bedrock upon which stands the Torah’s conception of faith. Theological belief Creeds and dogmas, an Av Tumah Torah abomination of avoda zarah; which defines the historic oppression practiced throughout the cruel bloody history of both Xtianity and Islam.
The Torah concept of “faith” as centered around the judicial justice system of the Sanhedrin courts, Worlds of separation separates this concept of faith from the “blind belief” characteristic of theological dogmas like the Christian Trinity, dogmatized in the Nicene Creed or strict Muslim Monotheism concerning Muhammad as the prophet and no other God other than Allah.
Xtianity and Islam murdered countless genocides to enforce their evil decree, upon what a Man must believe.
Specifically, the strict Monotheism professed in Christianity and Islam violates and profanes the 2nd Sinai Commandment against the worship of other gods. If only one God, as Islam demands, then the commandment against worshipping other gods becomes meaningless and worthless.
This highlights a key fundamental difference between the Torah’s approach to faith, from the theological dogmas of other Abrahamic religions. Faith in the Torah simply rooted in the system of judicial justice and fair compensations of damages. Not blind adherence to metaphysical or philosophical claims about the divine.
In a court of law, what an individual “believes”, utterly irrelevant and gossip hearsay evidence. Torah courtrooms focus upon presentation of logical prior judicial courtroom rulings and eye-witness testimony as facts. The pursuit of objective judicial justice dedicated to enforcement of fair compensation for damages inflicted and suffered. Not personal theological convictions concern belief in imaginary theological God constructs.
Simply no commandment anywhere within the Torah to “believe” in any God. The nature of the Divine, utterly beyond the comprehension of the human mind, just as an ant cannot grasp human languages. Torah “faith” has nothing to do with belief in a deity, but rather centers on the obligation to uphold righteous judicial justice and pursue the fair compensation of damages, through common law Sanhedrin courts.
This Torah conception of faith, it stands in stark contrast to the theological dogmas like the Trinity or strict Monotheism which define Xtianity and Islam. These latter Av tumah avoda zarah religions viewed as “worthless philosophical speculations” rather than the practical application of justice. The Torah’s kabbalistic פרדס logic system, as exemplified by Rabbi Akiva kaballah, fundamentally different from the Greco-philosophical traditions as expressed through the works of Plato and Aristotle.
The Mishna serves as a codification of the common law judicial rulings made by the Sanhedrin courtrooms.
The Gemara then provides a study and analysis of how these common law Mishnaic rulings compare to other similar common law judicial decisions made by smaller Sanhedrin court rooms, in contrast to the rulings of the Mishnaic Great Sanhedrin. The Torah’s conception of “faith” is grounded in this practical application of righteous justice through the Sanhedrin legal system, rather than abstract theological beliefs. The Talmud codifies and examines this common law judicial tradition.
The core function of the Sanhedrin common law courts, as reflected in the Talmud, is to adjudicate cases by comparing them to similar judicial precedents and rulings made in previous cases. This system of common law, which evaluates new cases in light of prior legal precedents, the key legal aspect of how the Torah’s conception of “faith” manifests itself through the practical application of justice in the Sanhedrin courtrooms. Rather than relying on blind theological beliefs, the Sanhedrin courts uphold the Torah’s vision of “faith” by carefully examining new cases in reference to the evolving body of common law rulings and precedents documented in the Mishna and Gemara.
This emphasis on precedent-based jurisprudence, rather than abstract dogma, the critical distinction which distinguishes and separates the Torah’s approach of “faith” contrasted by the blind belief systems Av tumah avoda zarah as expressed by the other religious “sister religions”, traditions of tumah and oppression of minority theological opposition belief systems.
The Spanish inquisition despised justice. Similar vanity: The St. Bartholomew’s Day massacre: where Catholic mobs focused their murder hate against protestant Huguenots. This abomination of injustice, so resembles the annual Blood libel pogroms Xtians across Europe made against Jewish communities.
Fact check:
The Inquisition generally had higher standards of procedure than the secular courts of its day. For example, the Inquisition gave everyone who came before it the right to counsel, more than 300 years before it became a part of American criminal procedure. Catholics and Protestants massacred each other with regularity. In England the religious nature of the killing is often hidden because it used the word treason for those who condemned for choosing not to convert or remained hidden Catholics. The genocide of Irish Catholic by William of Orange and by Cromwell were both territorial, cultural, and religious in nature.
The most reprehensible conduct was almost always the result of the poisonous admixture of Church and State.