Let’s have a civil discussion about transgender girls playing on high school sports teams. (Adult sports teams are outside the scope of this post.)
I’ve spent some time researching this, and comparing policies in different states. Please read the post before commenting. The goal is education and polite discussion of legitimate concerns, not having a culture war.
Alright, let’s start with two hypotheticals for illustrations, and then get into policies, laws, and gender-affirming care.
The Hypotheticals
Here’s our first hypothetical: Michael is a mediocre athlete. He’s gone through puberty and, at age 17, is about 5’11” and has a decent amount of upper body strength, but he’s just not standing out while playing linebacker on the high school football team. Michael wants to excel at sports, so he hatches a plan. His senior year, he tells everyone his name is now Michelle and his pronouns are she/her. Within a week, she gets on the girls volleyball team and absolutely dominates. Michelle wins a scholarship to college for girls volleyball. She’s shut out the other girls on the team because she’s biologically a boy, which makes her a better athlete than cisgender girls.
Here’s our second hypothetical: Jack has always known he was really a girl and has supportive parents. Jack, who wants to be called Jill, started puberty blockers at twelve to give her some time to consider if she really was trans. A year later, after she’s convinced her parents that this really is her truth, she starts gender-affirming hormone therapy at thirteen, just before she starts eighth grade. Jill never went through male puberty. At age 14, she’s been on estrogen and a testosterone blocker for a year and she wants to try out for the freshman girls sports team. She’s at average height, strength, and speed for a 14-year-old girl, and no one even knows she’s trans unless she tells them.
First Let’s Acknowledge Her Humanity
Before I dive into the meat of this post, let’s acknowledge we’re talking about teenage human beings. The teenage years are rough for everyone. We were all trying to figure out who we were and where we belonged. Trans teenagers have an added layer of “figuring it out”. Over the past few years, these girls have had to grapple with the fact that half the country is disgusted by their existence and thinks they’re predators. I mean, jeez, ouch. Don’t spew any hatred or disgust in the comments, okay?
Teens Play Sports for a Variety of Reasons
Another point about high school athletes is also important. Only a tiny percentage of them will continue to be athletes after high school. Most high school athletes play sports because they like being on a team, like having teammates, like the physical activity and skill. They aren’t trying for scholarships and a future as a pro athlete. If you’ve got kids or grandkids playing high school sports, how many of them want to be serious athletes long-term?
The point is that high school athletics is often more about giving teens a place to belong and to learn good sportsmanship and teamwork than it is about winning the championship and going to college on scholarship. Maybe schools should have some flexibility – a school that is competitive for the state championship may want a different policy than a school that is just happy that enough girls showed up to field a team.
About Puberty
Much of the concern I’ve seen about trans girls on high school teams assumes that she’s gone through testosterone-fueled puberty. Male puberty produces height, upper body strength, greater muscle mass, bigger hands and feet, and even their bones are more dense. These are real physical changes that must be accounted for in sports. This is the Michael-to-Michelle hypothetical.
But what about the Jack-to-Jill hypothetical? If a trans girl didn’t go through testosterone-fueled puberty, she isn’t going to have the height and mass of a boy who has gone through puberty. Jill has no physical advantage over cisgender girls. I’ll talk more about this later in the post.
High School Athletics Associations
Your state has an organization that creates the policies and other rules for high school sports teams. I looked up three, and my favorite one is Wisconsin.
Wisconsin – One Year of Medical Transition
Wisconsin’s governor vetoed a ban on transgender girls playing high school sports a couple months ago, in April 2024. That left in place Wisconsin’s policy of letting the individual schools handle the issue within the rules created by the Wisconsin Interscholastic Athletic Association (it’s a pdf and I can’t get a link to work, so if you want to look it up yourself, search for WIAA Transgender Participation Policy.)
The Policy: “seeks to balance the important goals of: 1) equity (since providing equal opportunities in all aspects of school programming is a core value in education), 2) physical safety (since biological males or androgen-‐supplemented biological females are typically stronger and faster than biological females) and 3) competitive equity (since the ideal of a “level playing field” is an inherent expectation at all levels of sport competition).”
That’s a good statement of the issues they’re trying to balance.
Transgender girls may apply to compete on a girls team in Wisconsin by demonstrating that they are genuinely and consistently transgender, and being on testosterone suppressants for a calendar year: “An MTF (male-to-female transgender) student must have one calendar year of medically documented testosterone suppression therapy to be eligible to participate on a female team, consistent with WIAA policy. Note that a MTF student who has NOT started testosterone suppression therapy may participate on male teams if desired by the student, as there would be no concern about safety or competitive equity without biological interventions having been implemented.”
There it is: one year of hormone therapy before you can try out for the girls’ high school sports team in Wisconsin. Hormones determine whether you look male or female, even more than your chromosomes. I read Paula Stone Williams’ memoir about transitioning as an adult. When she started taking estrogen, her body changed. Fat deposits migrated from her chest and waist to her hips and thighs. She lost some upper body muscle mass. She grew breasts. Testosterone and estrogen are important in creating differences between male and female muscle mass.
In Wisconsin, Jill would be able to try out for the girls sports team. Michelle … well, the timing of puberty and that one-year on hormone therapy will do a lot to keep Michelle off the girls team. It’s a calendar year requirement, and high schools don’t generally let people join a team partway through a year. That would make it very difficult for a transgender girl to wait until she’s gone through testosterone-fueled puberty and then play on a girls sports team. In the hypothetical, Michael was starting his senior year when he transitioned. In Wisconsin, he wouldn’t be eligible to be on a girls sports team because he would graduate before he finished the year of medical transition.
The one-year-medically-transitioning requirement, combined with the timing of puberty, and how long puberty takes, greatly reduces the concern about man-size people on the high school girls sports team. My son just finished his sophomore year — he grew five inches and is now six feet tall. He’s not trans, but if he went on gender-affirming care through his junior year, he would be able to try out for a girls’ sports team his senior year. He would have the height, but he isn’t through puberty. He’s built like a pencil and has no upper body strength. I had to open a jar for him last week. It will be another couple years before he fills out through the chest and shoulders. Interrupting his puberty in his junior year would stop that testosterone-fueled growth in his upper body. Individuals vary, but boys don’t usually finish puberty in high school, and if they’ve got to spend a year transitioning medically, there just wouldn’t be that many situations in which a post-puberty boy would have time to transition and still have a year or more to play on a girls sports team.
California – No Limits on Transgender Participation
In California, the policy about transgender participation on high school sports teams is wide open. California’s policy is, “Participation in interscholastic athletics is a valuable part of the educational experience for all students. All students should have the opportunity to participate in CIF activities [high school sports] in a manner that is consistent with their gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on a student’s records.” California Interscholastic Federation Bylaws, Article 30, 300.D.
There’s been some public backlash to this. We’ll see if any changes are made.
Utah – No Transgender Participation At All
Before the law changed in 2022, the Utah High School Activities Association, which regulates interscholastic sports and activities in the state, said that a transgender girl “must complete at least one calendar year of medically prescribed hormone treatment under a physicians care for the purpose of gender transition before competing on a girls team.” [source] (After the Utah legislature passed a law, the Handbook changed and the previous Handbook isn’t available online. The 2023-2024 Handbook is at this link.)
I’ll repeat: before legislation banned them from sport entirely, transgender high school girls in Utah had to take a full calendar year of hormone treatment before they could play on the girls team in high school. In the fears and concerns I’ve seen expressed about transgender athletes, it seems to me that most conservatives ignore this requirement and assume that a transgender girl can get on a high school sports team the same day she announces she’s transgender. Perhaps that’s true in California, but it was never true in Utah.
Utah banned transgender athletes from high school teams in 2022. The legislature had to override the Republican governor’s veto in order to do it. Utah Republican Governor Spencer Cox explained his thinking:
“The veto override vote came just days after Republican Gov. Spencer Cox penned a heartfelt letter to legislators in which he said he’d been moved by data showing that including transgender youth in sports could reduce suicide rates within the group.
“I don’t understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live. And all the research shows that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce suicidality significantly,” Cox wrote.
He also cited statistics showing that while 75,000 kids played high school sports in Utah, only four were transgender, with just one involved in girls’ sports.
“Four kids and only one of them playing girls sports. That’s what all of this is about. Four kids who aren’t dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through each day,” he wrote. “Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few.”
You can probably guess what I think of Utah’s trans athlete ban. There is no reason for a statewide law aimed at ONE person.
My opinion is that policies about transgender athletes should be handled by the state high school athletics association of each state. Policies can be changed and updated and adapted more easily than laws can be passed and/or repealed. Lawmakers stay out.
Athletic Ability in Transgender Individuals
I went looking for credible, non-political studies about athletic ability in transgender individuals before and after they transitioned and found some sources. I’m not a biologist or a medical professional, but the studies linked in the next paragraph looked credible to me, and not obviously biased one way or the other.
Studies of athletic ability in transgender individuals are scarce and have very small sample sizes (understandably, since transgender individuals make up about 1% of the population and only a fraction of that 1% will be interested in sports). The studies focus on adults in elite athletics, such as Olympic athletes. There are differences per sport – some sports rely more on endurance, some on strength, some on speed. We’d expect different observations in swimming as compared to running track as compared to basketball, for example. Again, these studies focus on professional adult athletes [if you only read one of these articles, this last one is the best].
“The World Athletics, the international governing body for track and field, announced new rules in March 2024 prohibiting ‘male-to-female transgender athletes who have been through male puberty’ from female world rankings competitions.” [article] Note that the World Athletics is an organization for adults who compete at the highest levels. They’ve drawn the line at male puberty.
Athletic ability in transgender teenagers hasn’t been studied extensively. It can’t be studied. Puberty would change the results too much. You can’t do a “before and after” transitioning study focused on athletic ability in kids going through puberty. Instead, size is generally presumed to be an indicator of athletic ability.
I found a court case in West Virginia that is considering this question: “Do prepubescent people whose sex is assigned as male at birth enjoy a meaningful competitive athletic advantage over cisgender girls?” This case posed the unique question of stretching transgender bans to the lowest levels of youth sports (eighth grade), with the trans girl asserting that she has no unfair advantage because she hasn’t gone through puberty and doesn’t have the physiological traits that give boys and men athletic advantages over girls and women. [source] (Those links are paywalled, so if you want the full article, let me know and I’ll do a copy-paste.) The issue hasn’t been decided yet, but I think that’s an important issue to explore.
Gender-Affirming Care
The worry about tall, strong, post-puberty boys playing on the girls’ sports teams can largely be solved by allowing gender-affirming care. A trans girl who starts puberty blockers at age 12 will (probably) not be six feet tall. (My cousin married the cisgender star of a women’s college basketball team and she was six foot two, so tall, cisgender athletic women are a real thing.) It’s the hormones, and not just the X and Y chromosomes, that make men (generally) bigger and women (generally) smaller.
Let trans kids be trans. Let them take puberty blockers and live as their chosen gender. I doubt that a trans girl wants to go through male puberty anyway. Let her transition when she wants.
Stop With the Transphobic Laws
If legislators would stop making health care decisions for individuals and let a trans girl decide with her parents and doctor to take puberty blockers and then hormone therapy, the worry about size differences and muscle mass between trans and cis athletes in high school largely goes away. As it is, states ban gender-affirming care for minors, then ban transgender girls from high school athletes because they’ve gone through male puberty. Well, if the legislatures stopped banning gender-affirming care for minors, they wouldn’t have as many transgender girls who have gone through male puberty.
If a medical treatment has risks, then the appropriate way to handle that is through education. Let the transgender child, her family, and their doctor make the decision. Lawmakers shouldn’t be making medical decisions for anyone.
What You Can Do
Run a search for your state’s high school athletics association and see what the eligibility policy for transgender athletes is. Write to your state lawmakers and urge them to pass laws that are not based on culture war fears, but on informed policies of fairness. Puberty blockers and other gender-affirming care may be the best way to include transgender girls in an important part of being a teenager, while keeping things fair for their cisgender teammates.
Questions:
- If a transgender girl is at roughly the same size, strength, and speed as the cisgender girls because of gender-affirming care, would you be alright with her playing on the girls team in high school?
- Do your cisgender girls play high school sports? Ask them what they think and let us know. Ask them if they think transitioning before or after puberty would make a difference.
- Do you know a young transgender athlete? Give them a hug from me and tell them to hang in there.
- Do you think questions about trans athletes should be handled by a state athletics association? Or do you think laws are the best way to address these issues?
Wheat & Tares 
I haven’t had the chance to read the article yet, however I have a transgender woman in my life who has been on female hormones for less than a year. They work in a very physical job with lifting. They recently discovered that they can no longer lift what they used to lift, and they are having to ask male coworkers to help them with some of the heavier items.
Changing hormones does change the physical capacity. This is why women in professional sports sometimes take testosterone to improve their performance
The research I’ve done yields vastly different opinions, even among people I consider reasonable and open minded. One friend who’s parent of a trans kid is all for trans girls being treated the same as other girls, regardless of time of transition. I have another liberal, feminist friend who says your scenario 1 ignores women’s rights.
One trans podcaster essentially supported your paragraph with the idea that high school sports is more than winning and losing. It’s about teamwork, friendship, camaraderie. If someone is trans and dominates, so be it. It’s a life lesson for the other girls. However that sort of works both ways. If I’m a girl who’s trained her entire life for a shot at the state championship podium the rest of her team should support her and respect her work and talent. Either way, someone is getting their head patted.
I’ve viewed videos on this subject on YouTube and there are examples of trans girls absolutely dominating. I have two female children, and no trans children so I’m biased. My gut tells me the average sized girl who’s worked her entire life and who’s smashed by a trans girl who has a testosterone based advantage, that the fair thing is to have a trans category or to have two first place medals.
The Michael/Michelle hypothetical in the OP (17-year-old biological male athlete who decides on a whim to assume a female identity in order to dominate by competing against females) is largely a trope, used by fear-mongering, transphobic conservatives as a boogeyman; for example, claiming that trans women athletes are really just boys using a loophole for their own gain, or at least to gain access to women’s locker rooms, which also reinforces misconceptions about trans people being deviants and perverts. The reality is that the decision to transition (medically and/or socially) is never made lightly, especially since it will likely subject the trans person to extensive public ridicule and scrutiny. My personal experience with trans people (limited as it is) is that they aren’t after special treatment, and not pushing an agenda, but just want to be treated with dignity and respect like anyone else. To make a conscious choice to live publicly as the truest version of one’s self is a courageous act for anyone, but especially so for trans folks.
I’m in favor of erring on the side of access, and letting all athletes compete in the gender category with which they most comfortably identify. Since participating in sport has medical/physical health implications, I would be amenable to requiring a gender dysphoria diagnosis, or evidence of medical transitioning under a doctor’s care to be in an athlete’s medical file. And since trans athletes account for a very, very small percentage of the total population of competitive athletes, I don’t think it’s warranted to fear of a mass takeover of women’s sports that undermines the entire competitive field. That’s just as absurd as when DHO once opined that the growing acceptance of gays and the “spread of homosexuality” would someday lead to mass global depopulation.
I’m generally in agreement with the OP, so consider this all additive, not contradictory:
Athletics has become the tail that wags the dog in education. For many parents, the potential college career (with millions of dollars of NIL money possible for talented players) is the ultimate life goal. For these students and parents (and there are more than you think at EVERY high school) athletics is career prep. Do not get in their way! They certainly don’t let rational behavior get in their way. Lawyers are standing by.
Trans athletes should be able to play sports in the gender that they most identify with. Federal laws should protect that just to make it final, and keep the states’ rights folks from continuing to make this non-issue of trans participation in sports a wedge issue. That said, this mostly really deals with female sports. As for professional sports teams that turn large profits, the issue of trans participation hardly seems in question at all. Consider the fact that if you had a trans male making it to the NBA or NFL, people would be in awe if not congratulatory. I just don’t understand the threat that this poses or conservatives’ fixation on the issue.
As for trans females with penises using the same locker room or changing room as cis females. I really don’t understand what the big deal is. When I go to the locker room, I hardly notice naked bodies. In a public bathroom, I’ve never seen anyone’s private parts. Consciously attempting to view anyone’s private parts in a public bathroom, no matter my gender, would be criminal anyways.
Lastly, it’s quite obvious who a trans person is and who a trans person isn’t. Conservatives’ criticism that anyone can just claim to be whatever gender or ethnicity they want is unfounded. Non-trans people posing as trans people is a non-problem.
Boomers: “I can’t believe I wore bell bottoms.”
Gen X: I can’t believe I wore my hair like that.”
Millennials: “I can’t believe I was Goth/Emo.”
Gen Z: ” I can’t believe I cut off my penis.”
That about sums the current fad.
I think there are several issues and it is hard to be fair to everyone. And just for the record, I do have a family member who is male to female trans.
While Brad causually brushes off people with penises in the female locker room, as a man he can say it doesn’t matter because he would not be threatened by a female in his locker room. But it is different for women. Expecially females who have experienced sexual trauma. As a child sexual abuse victim, you had better believe it would have terrified me. No, just no. Every high school has several child sex abuse victims and it is not fair to tell them they just have to deal. They need protection and should not have to “out” themselves in order to get it, and besides, there are just too many with 1 out of four girls suffering some kind of sexual abuse.
So, what about the rights of girls who don’t want to be exposed to penises while they are showering and dressing? Does the transgender girl’s rights outweigh cisgender rights. The number of sexually abused high school girls far out numbers the number of trans girls. So, whose rights do we protect?
Now as an adult, I don’t have a problem, because the trauma is behind me and I understand they would be no threat, but as a high school student, even a locker room full of females was threatening. I had a very hard time in high school gym. Just being undressed in an open area was hard enough, even without the threat of penises.
Another issue is school sports has become too important. It is no longer about team building and sportsmanship, but has become highly competitive and people’s future often depend on getting the sports scholarship. I think protections need to be in place for keeping the competition as fair as possible. I am alright with the one year into hormone treatment as that gives the most protection to cis athletes. But that doesn’t solve the locker room problem.
I don’t know the best way to keep it fair to everyone. There are young men who go through puberty earlier and they would have the male physical advantage by transitioning junior year and competing senior year. Yet, should we ban them from competing to keep things fair?
This topic is just more complicated than simple rules about all students can compete on the gendered team of their choice, or one year into transition a student can compete. Part of me wants to protect the rights of my trans family member, while part of me thinks we need to protect the cis girls, especially ones who have been sexually traumatized.
My former business partner is a trans woman. She transitioned during after we had started a company together. I also have a trans male cousin. I have always been in support of anti-discrimination laws when it comes to occupation, housing, and public accommodations for the entire LGBTQ community.
Having said that, I am also a competitive athlete. I ran cross-country captain in HS and went to state (Utah). My teammate broke the 4-minute mile when he was running at BYU. I’ve ran the Boston marathon. The slowest JV boy was often competitive with the fastest varsity girl. I’ve read quite a bit of the studies and athletic performance are not just solely related to puberty and hormones, though that is a major part. When we talkd about fairness, there is a statistical distribution we need to think about. On the one hand, it’s not “fair” that Michael Phelps was born with the wingspan to torso ratio that he had. But, we shouldn’t look at outliers but rather broad distributions of populations, and those are distinct by gender. In HS, we played a lot of co-ed mixed basketball and volleyball with my friend group and we had some really all-stars, some of which played college. It has always been fun to have mixed participation in sports, too, so we need to think about co-ed team sport leagues where trans athletes would be a natural fit.
There are a lot of different aspects to human performance outside of puberty and hormones, some of which we haven’t even been able to quantify such as pelvic widths and bone angles which can create different magnitudes of force. Puberty blockers or reducing testosterone don’t entirely eliminate this advantage. I think Wisconsin’s approach is an ill-fated attempt try and correct for some of the biological advantages, but it’s inadequate in my view. I think it’s impossible to correct for because there are other physiological advantages that start in the womb as it relates to brain, skeletal structure, and cardiorespiratory system. I’m not going to cite the data here, but it is definitely there for those who are honest and curious.
I love my trans friends and my trans family. But I think Utah’s law has it correct. I think this is an area where liberals (I include myself in that label) and trans-advocates are pursuing the wrong goal. We should encourage participation of sports among all populations, male, female, and trans. But when it comes to competition, I agree with Toad: trans athletes should have their own category similar to how we have the paraolympics for disabled. Either that, or they should participate in a non-competitive way where the trans athlete won’t be on the podium, break gender-specific records, or obtain gender-specific scholarships. It’s unfair to women athletes and, I would argue, it actually erodes wider support for the LGBTQ community as it creates an effective wedge based on a valid fairness issue that I don’t believe can be rectified by state/federal law or athletic board rule making.
By the way, if you want to watch a really powerful documentary about gender and sports at the youth league, I would recommend “Kick Like A Girl” which follows an undefeated all-girls soccer team that competes in a boys youth soccer division. This was a team right in Salt Lake City: Kick Like A Girl.
We needed Title IX to provide girls the same opportunities as boys in college sports. And that trickled down to high schools and junior high. For some reason, we were comfortable as a society providing boys with opportunities that were not there for girls. Fast forward 50+ years and now boys are using Title IX against girls per the Biden Administration’s latest guidelines. Can we just leave girls’ sports alone?
I propose that we allow all genders / sexes to play boys’ sports, not girls’ sports. Let’s see where that goes.
I know this wasn’t supposed to be about locker rooms, but when it comes to high school sports, it is a subject that can’t be avoided. So I will just say this. Please, please, please, listen to Anna.
Culturally speaking, I think we need to tone down the rhetoric and competitiveness on sports. Overwhelmingly, most people who play sports will not and will never make money at it. The best that most individual athletes can hope for is to get a university scholarship for playing a sport. But even there, that is few and far between. Almost all sports teams simply don’t matter. Whether they win or lose does not matter. Professional women’s sports are significantly less profitable and spectated than men’s sports. Mostly sports are for fun, exercise, building personal discipline and learning how to play with a team, and glory. But that’s it. That being the case, transgender women playing in women’s sports has almost no monetary impact whatsoever. From the sports angle, this is non-issue. From an LGBTQ+ angle, this is a rights issue. So why the fuss? Does it really have to do with sports? Or is it just transphobia? Trans people thrive best when they act like the gender they are most internally oriented towards and are included as members of that gender. So include them in women’s sports. Even if it is true that trans athletes on average perform better than women, is there really that much at stake here? Oh no, your high school women’s soccer team didn’t take state because the other team had a very skilled trans player on it. So the parents (who else would watch high school sports) are deprived of temporary glory? Much ado about nothing. I think too many people simply take too many sports too seriously.
Hmmm. I liked the sound of Wisconsin’s approach, and I also liked the ideas expressed by Spencer Cox in his veto. I’ll only add two quick notes: 1) this doesn’t address non-binary kids, an even smaller population (and the problem with a separate category for trans athletes is there aren’t enough of them in a school for this to be a reasonable alternative if what they are seeking is teamwork, friends, allies), and 2) I’m in Germany where, if you go to the sauna, everyone is just nude: men, women, all together. Now these are often 16+ spaces, no children, so there’s no issue with non-“adult” bodies mixing in, but nudity in general here is accepted and normal. People sometimes do nude sunbathing in the public park on their lunch break, so it’s just not a big deal to folks. I realize that’s NOT American culture, but nudity is only verboten because that’s the norm.
As far as trans athletes go, there should be some privacy options for the locker room that are easy accommodations. They always had some curtained off areas in our school locker room that were an option for those who wanted them. It’s just not that hard to create more privacy options to help everyone feel more comfortable.
Anna, I think it is quite obvious who is a trans person and who isn’t a trans person. You’re worried that perverted men posing as trans women would enter locker rooms on false pretenses. I think we can criminalize that and still have real trans women using women’s locker rooms. Let’s say that a female files a complaint about a person with a penis entering a women’s locker room. Upon investigation it is revealed that this person isn’t really trans, but posing as a trans person. OK, prosecute. But let’s say that upon investigation that this person is really trans, and shows all the signs of being trans, i.e., looks and dresses female, is going through a sex change, etc. Then that should be perfectly fine.
On people not wanting to be exposed to penises in the locker room? Count me as someone, as a male, who feels uncomfortable being exposed to penises in a locker room. I’m not terribly keen on seeing other men’s genitalia in a locker room. If someone deliberately exposed themselves to me in the locker room without my consent, well that would be a criminal act. That said, I think that society is too squeamish on seeing the nudity of other genders. At some point it is just simple anatomy. It is something you see on horses, dogs, and cats. It is something you see on babies. It is something that just naturally is.
@Hawkgrrrl: cultural norms about nudity and bodies are just that: cultural. My father is married to a Finn and they also have a very different culture and strong societal norms around saunas. As cis-gender male who is right on the dividing line between Gen X/millennial, I have seen younger kids become more, not less, private when it comes to locker room changing areas. I regularly swim laps as part of my triathlon training at the county recreation center. I have no problem changing from my street clothes to the jammers right in the male changing area. The showers are open as well (not one private shower option) and I am just fine. But I’ve noticed that almost all younger student-althlete groups that train at the Sand Hollow Aquatic Center (St. George) often will opt for the private changing areas, and they don’t shower. It is almost always Gen X and older guys who feel comfortable changing and showering in public. The younger cohort seems to prefer privacy. In my view, we would do far better to spend our time, energy, and money retrofitting communal locker rooms and showers to ensure that we have more private bathroom and facilities in public schools or public rec centers, including stand-alone family or unisex bathrooms that are designed for solo use. This 3rd way approach also eliminates BradD’s concern and it also addressess very valid points made by Anna.
@BradD: I don’t agree with your comment on toning down competition. Sure, some people have an unhealthy level of competition, but most don’t. Competition is a thrill and exciting, even among amateurs. Competition is fun, healthy, and can bring out the best. What we need to think about is sportsmanship and respect. Even if one isn’t expected to make money or achieve fame or celebrity status by competing, people want to have a relatively fair playing field. I run regularly with a lot of middle-aged athletes who didn’t run in HS or college, but all of whom are competitive, within their age group or just going for a PR. When Nike brought out their VaporFly Elite carbon-plate shoe and Kipchoge almost broke the 2 hr marathon mark, it inspired a lot of mediocre athletes to buy the shoe who were nowhere near his status, just for the 4% edge. She shoe is SUPER expensive! People will look for an edge, and I think we need to have some baseline of what constitutes fair (I could write an entire post about performance enhancing drugs as well). It is entirely possible to treat a trans person with dignity, respect, and not misgender them and accord them full civil rights while holding the view that traditional gender-segregations are upheld in the issue of fairness for the rights of other participants to have a fair playing field. I think that labeling someone who has an objection to trans males playing in female sports transphobic is a bad-faith argument on the merits.
I’m with Gov Cox, Brad D, and Hawkgrrrl on this one.
As a Californian, I support the current policy. I can also be it seen revisited based on science and medicine. When They say “Protect woman’s sports”, I agree. Trans woman are women, and should also be protected along with their cis sisters.
Sports are big business and as woman’s sports grow, so does the paycheck. Up and coming elite athletes are often part of the pay to play setup. Depending on the sport, frequently elite athletes skip high school sports as it is viewed as a rec league. And maybe it should be a rec league.
As for locker rooms, a thousands curses. When I was a wee child, I was told God was always watching. So I spent years draping a towel over myself every time I sat on a toilet (and wondering if God had x-ray vision) So I don’t do locker rooms. Nope, not at all. (and I did sports in high school. Yikes) I mean, who wants penis in a girls locker room. You have some trans girl stuck with unfortunate anatomy. She may well be ecstatic if she could get a more appropriate and fitting genitalia.
Do we even need locker rooms? How about changing stalls, lined with lead to block God’s pervy vision.
But I really don’t think we can discuss woman’s sports without looking at the history. Many people were against womens sport cuz it might hurt reproduction organs, but there was a big contingent who thought it grew fine Christian minds and bodies to birth the next generation. Ever on the outlook to support heterosexuality and femininity. The same people who spent decades enforcing mandatory heterosexuality(and routing out lesbians and “ugly” girls) have now locked their aim on trans children.
We need to let kids do what they do– Play.
It’s true that there wouldn’t be enough trans kids to have their own teams but I think there are work arounds. On my high school golf team in a small high school there were 3 girls and ~12 boys. The girls played alongside the boys and in small tourneys the girls played in the same foursomes of some of the boys but got their own places / medals – for the girls golf team. Similarly, trans girls could participate and practice with the girl teams, make friends, etc. They still receive the glory and share the podium (ie two first medals) or have a “parallel” podium with the girls champion.
On my high school golf team one girl got a scholarship to play golf for a small college and two of the boys got golf scholarships. They played together but were recognized separately.
I teach at a college in the northeast. I’ve had a few trans students come out to me, privately, after class, long after everyone else has left, because even in my supposedly blue state, these students are, with good reason, terrified of being targeted and physically assaulted. When I recently overheard some straight, cis-male students complaining about how “dangerous” it’s getting out there with online dating, I had to gently remind them that trans people are much more afraid of you than you will ever be afraid of them.
The famous photos of Nazis burning books in 1933 was specifically of them burning LGBTQ books at a German center for gender and sexuality studies that hosted the world’s first trans clinic—which was also looted and banned by the Nazis. I don’t pretend to know everything about trans issues, but I have found that not supporting the same actions as literal Nazis to be a pretty safe way to live my life.
On the trans sports controversy, I think Utah Governor Spencer Cox of all people, in his 2022 veto of the Utah trans athlete ban (sadly overridden by the Utah state legislature), said it more eloquently than any of us could:
“Finally, there is one more important reason for this veto. I must admit, I am not an expert on transgenderism. I struggle to understand so much of it and the science is conflicting. When in doubt however, I always try to err on the side of kindness, mercy and compassion. I also try to get proximate and I am learning so much from our transgender community. They are great kids who face enormous struggles. Here are the numbers that have most impacted my decision: 75,000, 4, 1, 86 and 56.
● 75,000 high school kids participating in high school sports in Utah.
● 4 transgender kids playing high school sports in Utah.
● 1 transgender student playing girls sports.
● 86% of trans youth reporting suicidality.
● 56% of trans youth having attempted suicide
“Four kids and only one of them playing girls sports. That’s what all of this is about. Four kids who aren’t dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through each day. Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don’t understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live. And all the research shows that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce suicidality significantly. For that reason, as much as any other, I have taken this action in the hope that we can continue to work together and find a better way. If a veto override occurs, I hope we can work to find ways to show these four kids that we love them and they have a place in our state.”
No, Brad, you are missing the point. It is about someone who has been traumatized being put into an extremely triggering situation, even if she is actually perfectly safe. I am not worried about about perverts invading the locker rooms. That is a boogy man the far right is bring up. I am worried about a sexually abused child feeling unsafe because she is exposed to male anatomy. I am not worried about her being abused, but about her being retraumatized. Her being *triggered* by seeing someone anatomically like her abuser. Unless you are an abuse survivor, you don’t know what being triggered is like, and many people minimize it. She is suffering from Post Traumatic Stress and putting her in a situation where she cannot feel safe because the trauma is being triggered. It isn’t a matter of her being unsafe, because there were always teachers watching. It is a matter of the trauma being triggered. Don’t girls deserve to feel safe, and I can tell you from personal experience that seeing a naked male, no matter how safe the reality would not feel safe. It would be like someone pointing a gun at you. You might be safe, but it doesn’t feel safe because of past trauma. So, no, I am not worried about men pretending to be trans, but real trans women who have not had bottom surgery. If girls got to take individual showers, or if there was some privacy for the girls who need it then fine. But I felt exposed and terribly vulnerable just being naked myself in that kind of environment, let alone being exposed to anatomy that is still male. I hated gym so much, and putting one more trauma on top would have been too much. Trust me on this, even if you can’t quite grasp why it would be terrifying.
No one would transition gender to cheat at sports especially for children. It is so hard and so much physical and mental and emotional cost and energy spent on transitioning. I have a child that feels a significant amount of dysmorphia and has a counselor at a group of psychologists and doctors that specialize in trans issues. It would be years of therapy before they are willing to prescribe hormones or blockers. They also don’t do surgery on youth without significant physiological and mental justification. Otherwise you have to wait till you are at a minimum 18.
I don’t even get it. I think the fear comes from concern that someone could cross dress like in the absurdly bad Ben Shapiro movie – Lady Ballers, but the reality is so much more complicated.
my oldest daughter played rugby at college and there are players on her club team that are trans. This age group does have some trans people that want to be in sports. Most of them are not at elite levels and are just wanting to play along with the rest of the women. Larger biomass helps in rugby, but still the fear is so much bigger than needed.
Anna, I agree that we should create environments where victims of abuse feel safe. Bear in mind that trans people are a heavily victimized group as well. And including them in sports is about helping them feel normal. Perhaps locker room ethics should be changing and showering behind a curtain (especially minors). At some point, too, it isn’t possible, practical, or pragmatic to shield victims of abuse (sexual or non-sexual) from every possible trigger. Therapy involves desensitizing abuse victims to many triggers, not sustained avoidance of them. At some point we want females who were victimized while young to be able to have romantic relationships as adults and find a partner. To do so would involve overcoming some trauma triggers.
—————Top Ten Responses—————
10. How come we never had any trannies at my old school, back in the day? Maybe football made men out of them.
9. Okay, we did have a girl placekicker one year, but she changed in the girls’ locker room.
8. What is even the point of having women’s chess now?
7. Your first hypothetical is now a major motion picture, or at least a minor motion picture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py2MzGtmaJ0 (Spoilers: Michael would be quickly displaced by even bigger mtf players–think Heather Swanson from South Park)
6. How would they like it if ciswomen identified as transwomen in order to compete in drag shows? (like the female impersonator impersonator from “Victor/Victoria”)
5. Can the Gay Games still have same-sex couples figure skating, if regular figure skating is gay? Oh yeah, regular figure skating IS gay!
4. Just leave the MCU alone, that’s all I ask.
3. Such problems can be avoided with tschoukball, the Esperanto of sports.
2. Maybe high school sports have gotten out of hand.
1.You are all TERFs!
Brad, yes, I agree that desensitizing to triggers is necessary, but you don’t do that all at once by putting the victim in a situation they cannot control. That needs to be done under a therapists care and done slowly at the survivor’s pace. It should not be forced by sticking an already traumatized person into a situation that retraumatizes them. Forcing it too soon will just make healing all the harder.
And I totally agree with you about trans women needing protection and to be allowed to feel as normal as possible. But that should not come at the expense of retraumatizing someone else. That sexually abused child needs to feel as normal as possible too.
I think there are ways to accommodate both women who feel unsafe in mixed genital situations and trans women. But we can’t do that with your attitude that sexual abuse survivors just have to shut up and suck it up. There are two sides here and you are trying to tell one side that her needs are just not as important as someone else’s needs. And this is exactly why some women are up in arms to keep trans women out of locker rooms. You are putting the trans girls rights as more important and I am just saying that is not fair.
@Toad: I think you are on to something with work-arounds that are inclusive to trans athletes. When I was running HS cross-country, most of the camaraderie wasn’t so much the actual race, it was all the practices, stretching, the carb loading parties, the long runs, the ice baths, the trips, the hang-outs. etc. I think there are a lot of ways to include trans athletes that don’t involve breaking the gender barrier in actual competition. And if we take BradD’s point at face value (i.e., participation in sports isn’t so much about the competition per se, but “fun, exercise, building personal discipline and learning how to play with a team”), then that lends weight to the idea that trans women should not compete against biological women, but should still be included and participate. I think they could and they should particpate in a way that doesn’t pit trans women against biological women for scholarships or school records or for recognition on the podium.
The New York Times ran a great piece on Caitlin Clark (“The men who practice against Caitlin Clark can’t stop her either”) in which star womens basketball coaches ackowledge that have long used the tactic of getting men to sign up to compete against their female athletes to get reps in practice against males who are bigger, stronger, or quicker. It’s a symbiotic relationship where the men players get invested to in the success of their sparring partners. I think there is a message and a pattern here if we will look for it that could apply to trans athletes.
For team sports like basketball, soccer, or volleyball, we could do more to foster co-ed leagues at the youth level, or higher. I think this would be a great place for trans athletes to participate as well. I baptized my niece who is a soccer star at Montana State University on scholarship. Incidentally, she’s lesbian. All of my family considers ourselves allies, but no one in my family wants to see trans women competing against our soccer star out of fairness. I suspect that this is where most of America is right now and I don’t think it will change in 10 years because I don’t think the inherent advantages can be disentangled from from biological sex. I am aware that this issue can be weaponized and exploited by those who have really transphobic and anti-LGBTQ views. I don’t count myself in that camp. But I think it is folly to try to break down the gender barrier when it comes to sports.
I think we should use all of this as an opportunity to cancel sports and encourage musical development instead.
(I just like music more than sports and wish most schools had better music programs.)
JacobL
I think most people are in favor of fairness.
But what about the hypothetical of teenage girl Jill who has never gone through male puberty and is on estrogen and testosterone blockers? What about fairness to her?
Are you in favor of cis women with naturally occurring high levels of testosterone having to take drugs to lower it in order to compete in sports?
Just like species, the concept of biological sex is nebulous. When I was young, I was taught having a Y is male, not having one is female. Neat and tidy and very binary.
Now thanks in part to DNA, it is seen as a spectrum (and complex). We all seem to be a little of this and a little of that all swirled together to make us…us.
I’ll bring up microchimaerism. Most common in placental mammals where some cells travel to and fro, hither and thither along the placental highway. The eye opener was finding these cells Years later. An autopsy on a 94 year old cis women showed male DNA in her brain.
It’s not so much as breaking gender barriers in sports, but establishing barriers where they shouldn’t exist.
Jack Hughes – Yes, the Michael/Michelle hypothetical was meant to show how unrealistic that fear is. No one is transgender to try and gain an unfair advantage in sports; I completely agree with you.
christiankimball brings up a good point about how different sports might need different treatment. That’s another reason that a “one size fits all” law made in a legislature is the wrong approach. The better approach is to let sports associations govern themselves. They’ve got the specialized knowledge about their own sport. Those of us doing the armchair quarterbacking (look! I snuck in a sports metaphor!) should have less of a voice.
I want to acknowledge Anna’s concern, but … I mean … does anyone think that the trans girl is going to be fine with flashing her penis in a group shower? If you’ve got a trans girl who transitioned before puberty and hardly anyone even knows she’s trans, she isn’t going to be stripping naked in the locker room. Do high school athletes have communal showers? I haven’t been in a school locker room since my own school years, but there were curtains in the shower area. Is anyone seeing anyone’s genitals? Is anyone walking around naked? Girl is already in her uniform when she arrives at the school. She plays the game. She rides home with her parents still in her uniform. Away games might be trickier. Still, no one is making anyone strip naked in the locker room; no one is insisting on communal showers. Some of the girls may shower and change; some might not. I acknowledge it would traumatize an abuse survivor if being on a team meant seeing someone’s penis, but I don’t think that’s going to happen. No, I don’t want an abuse survivor to be re-traumatized. But I also don’t want to ban all trans girls because there is a 1% chance that the shower curtain might have a small gap in it.
As hawkgrrrl points out, American’s nudity aversion is cultural, but as Jacob L points out, millennials and younger are protective of their privacy. As common as it’s gotten for everyone to have a phone camera, and it’s common for people to record others without their knowledge and upload the video to the internet, everyone under age 35 wants as much privacy as they can possibly get. Perhaps the locker room problem is best addressed on a case-by-case basis, with the default being the most privacy possible for everyone. Again, not an issue that the state legislature should be passing laws about. Coaches can walk around the locker room with the maintenance staff and say things like, “let’s put a curtain here. Let’s install some privacy stalls here. Put a door here.”
Jacob L – your comment about co-ed teams brings up a thought. What if some teams were divided into height/weight categories and the teams were co-ed? Everyone under 5’9″ plays on one basketball team; everyone taller than that is on the other team. Probably not a workable solution for team sports, but something worth thinking about. Wrestlers are divided by weight class. Why not divide swimmers by height/weight?
I wish the general attitude was to find ways to let trans kids participate. There have been a couple of good alternatives offered in this thread. The attitude about trans athletes should be how much can we include them, and also take into account the concerns about physical fairness when the activity gets to the level of the state finals and scholarship consideration. Everyone belongs. Encourage flexibility and leave the decisions in the hands of the people who are actually coaching athletes and running the schools.
Suzanne Neilsen – With regards to the hypothetical teenage girl Jill (not experienced puberty and on hormones), that probably lowers the inherent biological advantage significantly, but it does not necessarily reduce it. The literature is pretty clear that the biological advantage starts from birth in the womb and accrues throughout one’s entire life and accelerates greatly at the onset of puberty. These differences matter in competitive sports, especially where strength and endurance are concerned. The first time I ran a cross-country meet with racing flats vs trainers, I was blown away by what a difference it made and it was reflected in my times. The 2008 Olympics with Nasa-designed swimsuits absolutely rocked the sports world and threw it into an existential crisis. Does anyone remember cupping in 2016 and the bruises all over Michael Phelp’s body? In my view there is an acceptable form of increasing performance: nutrition, training, sleep, mental toughness, coaching, etc. And then there are performance enhancing drugs, including hormones, steroids, and other ergonomic aids that are baned by Wada (World Anti-Doping Agency). I think going down the path of trying to titrate hormones to open access for sports is fraught and ill-advised path for the purposes of sports competition.
To answer your question, I am most certainly not in favor of any sort of testing for cis-gendered females to reduce testosterone if they are higher than normal. There are all sorts of natural variations that occur with regards to height, lung capacity, muscle fiber type, VO2 max, wingspan, torso length, glyocen stores, etc. When it comes to fairness, I am looking not at single outliers, I am looking at the distributional ranges that correlate to biological sex, and I would assert that trans females even on a hormone regimen would score, on average, higher than biological females on markers of strength, power, and endurance which would matter in most sports competitions (though not all). It probably wouldn’t matter so much in ping pong where the skill is mostly coordination, but it absolutely would matter in many of the sports.
I think there are lots of ways to include trans athletes, and I hope we unlock them. I think that trying to push for trans women to compete along with biological woman will undermine and perhaps reverse gains that the LGBTQ movement has made. I would recommend the New York Times article “What Lia Thomas Could Mean for Women’s Elite Sports”. I’ll just quote one relevant portion here:
Beginning in the womb, men are bathed in testosterone and puberty accelerates that. Men on average have broader shoulders, bigger hands and longer torsos, and greater lung and heart capacity. Muscles are denser.
When a male athlete transitions to female, the National Collegiate Athletic Association, which governs college sports, requires a year of hormone-suppressing therapy to bring down testosterone levels. The N.C.A.A. put this in place to diminish the inherent biological advantage held by those born male.
Ms. Thomas followed this regimen.
But peer reviewed studies show that even after testosterone suppression, top trans women retain a substantial edge when racing against top biological women.
Janey – With regards to whether HS have communal showers, my own experience is that many of them still do since they are often old. In Utah County, my HS and junior high had communal showers. BYU had communal showers. The MTC had communal showers. In junior high, we were forced to shower in PE and it was a huge source of anxiety, especially for the kids who were non-circumcised and the terrible gossip and rumors that started. I feel pretty strongly about retrofitting public accomodations to individual stalls and showers. It basically solves the bathroom wars.
I think that legislatures across the board tend to mess these things up. The athletic associations and high schools were doing just fine before the trans community became the boogie man of the culture war.
I think it is possible to provide opportunities to trans athletes while protecting female sports and keeping locker rooms safe. It wouldn’t be that hard if the legislators would just stay out of the way.
JacobL.
Thank you for your reply.
The statement, about being bathed in testosterone in the womb made me think of freemartins. So should a girl be banned from girl sports because she has a male fraternal twin?
I understand that the NCAA is a business and now athletes can make money. And that there are top athletes including women who are making over a million dollars. When millions of dollars are at stake, I understand the concern of an unfair advantage. (Height certainly gives an advantage. So tall genes are fair, but bone lengthening isn’t?) Then there’s the money in pro sports.
But I don’t think jr high or high school sports should be a big business. I will support all girls having the opportunity to experience the fun and comradery of participation in sports. Especially since biological sex is not a binary, but exists on a spectrum. We are all made up of complex biological variations.
As for trans women reversing gains made by the gay community, nah. That’s on the folks who want to reinstate sodomy laws, reverse marriage laws, fire gay teachers and other gay folk. Ban library books and television programs. The people who preach gender essentialism. Oh yeah, something so essential and innate it has to be enforced by law and threat of prison.
And I don’t think trans people should be sacrificed in the hope I’ll be ignored. If the Christian Nationalists successfully come for Trans folk, then they’ll eventually come for your niece.
Jacob L, at the the end of the day, trans people are a fairly small group. Trans athletes even smaller. And trans athletes in high school even smaller than that. We’re talking about a small handful of trans women joining women’s sports teams. I really can’t see how this will make an impact upon women’s sports, really at all. You also have to take into consideration the fact that much like the idea of trans women playing in women’s sports or even being normalized altogether in the wider culture, the idea of organized women’s sports is a rather recent phenomenon. And before the increasing normalization of trans people, extremely few people cared about women’s sports or saw it as serious competition. Even today, it generates very little profit.
I don’t have a horse in this race: my family and friends aren’t into watching or participating in sports.
However, the big deal that is being made about transgender women and bathrooms and sports… blah, blah, blah. This is having a horrible affect on transgender people because it puts it in the news and it says over and over, in an unavoidable way: There’s something really horribly wrong with you and we reject you and we don’t want you and no one will ever love you and you don’t belong and you’ll never fit in and we don’t want you to do basic things others are allowed to do like go to the bathroom or play sports. It says: You should be afraid, you should know your inferior, you ought to disappear….
It’s toxic, toxic, toxic. Big surprise that transgender children, adolescents and adults are more likely to suffer mental health problems and suicidal ideation and even be hospitalized. And no. Transgender people did not choose to be transgender. Their choice lies in whether they are open about it or not. Not being open is toxic to mental health as well.
In conservative areas transgender people live in fear and deception for good reasons. It’s genuinely dangerous for them to be open about it.
I participate in support groups for family of transgender people and these problems are real and faced every day. Moms are there whose kids are in and out of the mental hospital regularly and they are desperately trying to deal with these issues.
Sports are trivial in some ways, but for many people they represent inclusion. But exclusion is the whole point here.
To me the whole discussion represents society’s continued efforts to make transgender people disappear, because it makes everyone else more comfortable.
BradD- Thanks for your comment. As a male RN, I actually take care of trans individuals from time to time, so I think personal experience with trans individuals ismore frequently than the average person I would guess. And I have trans friends and family too. I can 100% guarantee you that any trans individual I care for will receive exceptional care and be treated just the way they and their family would expect. I want to make that crystal clear that this is about fairness and sports. It’s not even about money, which you alluded to above. But I kind of suspect that many people might not really understand how competitive sports are, including women’s sports, and how much they have had to fight to gain relevancy. If you are not on Strava, you might not get it. I used to volunteer on medical staff for the Huntsman Senior games and I would see 60 and 70 year olds literally lay themselves out to win a game or competition (and then I would take care of their skin rips). Gender specific competition is a huge part of people’s identities. There was no money involved, but fierce competition exists across all ages. Gallup found that 69% of people say that transgender athletes should only be allowed to compete on sports teams that correspond with the sex they were assigned at birth. This number has increased, not decreased. It’s only going to get more problematic (Sadie Schreiner and Aayden Gallagher).
We have seen a couple of female football players in the NCAA and no one cares because we know they are at an inherent disadvantage biologically for the sport. That will not be the same for trans males in most sports unless it is something like Pickleball. HS sports are hyper competitive. Layton Christian Academy won the 4A boys basketball state title in Utah mostly through recruiting very talented international students. This has prompted a ban on international students in HS sports, and this is just male sports we’re talking about. There is a reason why we don’t have 1A schools compete against 6A schools. The distribution of talent matters greatly.
Suzanne – I’ve already made the point above that the biological advantage is not simply hormonal. And to your point about fairness, yes, it’s true that in any sport there will be specific genetic differences even within the same biological sex that will confer an advantage (height in basketball or even lung capacity or muscle fiber type in my sport of running). Having wealth and resources might be considered an advantage. Galen Rupp had the money for a cryo sauna. Wealth can buy access to trainers, coaches, sports psychologists, club teams, etc. But your hypothetical of a female with a male fraternal twin doesn’t not come close to the magnitude of advantage in most sports than a trans male will have in strength, endurance, and power sports. Caffeine is an ergogenic aid that does not rise the threshold that warrants a ban by most agencies, but blood doping does, as does whatever Alberto Salazar was doing with his team.
You write: “I will support all girls having the opportunity to experience the fun and comradery of participation in sports.” I agree with this point. Let’s let all girls participate, including trans girls, but either in a separate category or not putting them on the podium, having them break gender-specific school records, or granting gender-specific scholarships. I don’t want to have anything to do with the retrograde policies (book bans, anti-sodomy laws, repealing gay marriage laws, or discriminating in housing/employment with regards to sexual orientation). I will fight those efforts tooth and nail. The vast majority of Americans support gay marriage, and they also support biological policies that stipulate that athletes should only participate in the competition on teams or sports according to the sex they were assigned at birth. It is a slippery slope fallacy to assume that being against trans women competing against biological women in sports will erosion of civil rights for the LGBTQ community.
Perhaps the fairest way to settle this would simply be to allow the trans athletes and the athletes they would be competing against to vote and craft the policy they feel comfortable with. I don’t necessarily think we need state law as mentioned by Rockwell, but I think the policy will land in about the same place regardless.
Just a side note on sports, I wanted to plug our LDS/BYU star athletes of Conner Mantz and Clayton Young who will be competing in Paris for team USA’s marathon team. BYU’s women cross-country team took the Big 12 title under nationally acclaimed coach Diljeet Taylor this year, along with the 5th national title recently in 2021. The amount of star power in running/track & field that our community has is amazing. LDS culture of Word of Wisdom and a rather ascetic lifestyle seems to produce very talented runners and endurance athletes across the country. Forget BYU vs Utah football, our culture is running! Olympic trials for track and field in 2 weeks in Eugene, Oregon and many more LDS hopefuls (Whitney Orton, Courtney Wayment, Casey Clinger) could be added to Team USA’s roster.
I skimmed comments because I’m busy today, but so tired of seeing this red herring discussion over and over. And I appreciate those that support people playing on whatever team they want. The only criteria that matters is if an athlete can make the cut and bring the win, on the team where they desire to play.
I learned this up close with my daughters’ competitive team sports, over a decade ago, and size doesn’t really factor, nor testosterone levels, or medical history or movie preferences. Individual performance matters. Desire to play matters. Which athlete or team is better at an individual place and time, matters.
It’s not supposed to be a hypothetical competition between men, as a group, and women, as a group. But that’s what this boils down to, and you have to disregard the individual athlete and their team of individuals to do it. There are so many ways this leap to generalize kills sport, and we’ve all seen some of them. It’s why we have Title IX and why gender essentialists try to water down (or repeal) Title IX. There are always cis women who are as big as men, in general, as strong as men, in general, whose human body performs better than men, in general, in their chosen sport. This truly kills the logic that some folks love to believe that in sports, men > women. That’s not always true, and it’s important to accept when it’s not true. The individual differences in humans of all sexes and genders range so wide, that it doesn’t really inform the question of fair play. If you prefer to try pinning down exactly how each group might possibly compete with another, to work out the formula that guarantees your idea of fairness, using as your basis that male athletes will outperform female athletes — well, there’ll never be an end to your overthink. Good luck.
As for the cis female athlete who loses to a trans female athlete, my condolence for the agony of defeat. And if you don’t wanna take my word for it, perhaps legendary women’s basketball coach Dawn Staley has enough credibility. In an interview just prior to her SC Gamecocks in the 2024 NCAA women’s championship tournament, she was lobbed a question about trans women athletes. She took a pause, then said this: “I’m of the opinion that if you’re a woman, you should play. If you consider yourself a woman and you want to play sports, or vice versa, you should be able to play.”
It really is that simple. People should quit terrorizing trans folks.
The ESPN news item:
https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39888293/dawn-staley-transgender-athletes-able-play
The video clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_ixLeJxP08
MDearest- Your comments are contradicted robust scientific literature. Size and hormone levels absolutely do matter, and are correlated with and determined by biological sex. In my view, dogmatic adherence to this position is how people like Donald Trump win elections. It’s akin to the “Defund the police movement” when what we really should have been talking about is accountability, training, reform, and qualified immunity. This absolutist position of “let people play on whatever team they want” will lead to real backlash against an already marginalized community. It is not “terrorizing trans folk” to insist on sports competition based on sex assigned at birth.
We will always be able to find outliers in a population. I can find an 8 year old who can outperform many/most 9 year olds in the 100 meter dash, but it does not follow logically we should stop creating rough boundaries for fairness based on age with youth sports. So of course while we can find strong females who can outcompete many males, substantial sex-specific gaps exist at a population level. So while we don’t need to have discrete categories for participation that delve into ever smaller minutia (e.g., 5’6” – 5’10” male basketball players between the ages of 16-17 whose household income is below $100k) to achieve fairness, I absolutely disagree with allowing people to play on whatever team they feel like.
Women and Men in Sport Performance: The Gender Gap has not Evolved since 1983.
A stabilization of the gender gap in world records is observed after 1983, at a mean difference of 10.0% ± 2.94 between men and women for all events. The gender gap ranges from 5.5% (800-m freestyle, swimming) to 18.8% (long jump). The mean gap is 10.7% for running performances, 17.5% for jumps, 8.9% for swimming races, 7.0% for speed skating and 8.7% in cycling.
Utah passed a law to protect girls from transgender “boys.” There are 76,000 ;high school student athletes competing in Utah. Four of them were transgender and only one of them was a boy transgendering into a girl. In other words all that fuss, anger, and hate in the press with everyone having to have their say to protect girls because of 4 total but in reality only 1 student. If that’s not piling on, I don’t know what it. Why do we submit ourselves to such mental and emotional abuse by a group that really doesn’t want to solve problems but only divide us and keep us from the real issues of the day. Here I could list everything from education to healthcare, to sex or elderly or any other kind of abuse there is. What about poor housing, a living wage, or just not having war. It’s also a shame that we always have to have an “enemy” who is going to destroy the world, like a transgender girl is going to be able to do that.
lsw329, beautifully said. Truly.
I want to agree that healthy competition is a good thing. Perhaps first we need to come to an understanding of the purpose of group sports and what healthy competition looks like before we can have a conversation about who should be allowed to play. But full disclosure, it’s going to be a hard sell to convince me that there cannot be a dignified place for everyone to participate.
To wit, let’s think through the Atlanta 1996 women’s gymnastics competition against the Tokyo 2021 women’s gymnastics competition. Bottom line is that Kerri Strug should never have been asked to perform her second vault, and Gabby Douglas showed us that there is more to a person’s worth and identity than a spot on the podium. We need to normalize this, not 70 year old skin tears and improper team sport recruiting tactics.
For those on this post who are in favor of allowing trans males to compete with biological women in sports, I would ask, what is your position on performance enhancing drugs and blood doping? Consider the fact that erythropoietin (EPO) (e.g., blood doping) increases endurance performance at most between 2-4% among male elite athletes. A trans male would have an inherent gender advantage that is perhaps many multiples higher than one of the most potent performance enhancing drugs simply by competing with biological women. Just something to consider as you contemplate fairness, competition, performance.
JacobL
Women with a fraternal male twin are still in that magic bath. And what about those with Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome?
My overall point, that sex differentiation is a spectrum.
Back a hundred years ago or so, when a child was born you looked at the external genitalia and made the sex pronouncement. If people had heard of sex chromosomes, most thought the womans determined the sex. (unless you’re Nettie Stevens) In 1959, scientists discovered a region on the Y chromosome and in 1990 SRY gene. That’s it, that’s how sex is determined in most mammals–NOT.
But then in 2009, some crazy stuff involving the ovarian gene FOXL2. Knock it out and granulosa cells (egg development) turned into Sertoli cells(sperm development) And then there’s those goats and the in utero female-to-male sex-reversal
And then there’s the DMRT genes. In 2011, it was found that if you inactivated DMRT1, then you could turn adult testicular cells into ovarian ones.
DMRT1 is an ancient sex regulator involving testicular differentiation found in most animal species and many sex determination systems. So for practical purposes the research is current and ongoing.
My point being, we really don’t know how sex differentiation works. So to arbitrarily ban trans girls from participating with girls in sports, while the research is ongoing, seems premature.
2: And it is no slippery slope fallacy, when it is the stated goal of Christian Nationalists.
One other thing I wanted to add to the discussion. Utah’s 2022 law banning transgender girls from participating from sports was overturned by a judge. The law is on hold as it is working its way through the courts. As it stands now, here is what happens:
“Instead of an outright ban, transgender girls will now go before a state commission of political appointees who will determine on a case-by-case basis if they are eligible to participate.
Under terms of the law, the panel will be allowed to ask for and assess the child’s height and weight in making decisions, about whether a transgender girl would have an unfair advantage. The commission, which is set to be convened in the coming weeks, will include a medical data statistician, a physician with experience about gender identity healthcare, a sports physiologist, mental health professional, collegiate athletic trainer, representative of an athletic association and a rotating member who is a coach or official in the sport relevant to each case.”
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/utah-judge-reverses-law-banning-transgender-girls-from-sports
Suzanne – When I was in nursing school, we had an entire section delving in my A&P course delving into the variations of sex and gender that don’t neatly correspond to XY vs XX chromosomes, including Klinefelter’s, triple-X, Jacob’s, Turner’s females, etc. Great professor and I learned a lot from her. I agree with you that sex isn’t a tidy neat binary that Christian nationalists want to make it. But on the issue performance and fairness, I think we have more than enough data to conclude there is a signficant insurrmountable performance advantage for an XY trans female athlete over an XX female athlete. I don’t have any qualms with drawing a line there. One could make the case that even age-differentiated cut-offs are arbitrary. Malcom Gladwell discusses this his book Outliers how “the boys of January” tend to disproportionately populate the ranks of elite hockey teams due to selection effects that are magnified all along the development pipeline through youth teams, club teams, and eventually at the professional level. And to your point, I don’t want to see a “ban” on trans athletes. I want participation and inclusion, with a caveat that will protect the podium, records, and scholarships.
Jacob L I have no argument with you or your data. I assume your data is sound, no need to check because it’s immaterial to my point. Somehow it was overlooked.
All I can say is that I felt the weariness in Dawn Staley‘s voice as she spoke up and answered that reporter’s question. But she still spoke up.
I’m a little late to this conversation, but this is a topic that is interesting to me since I had a daughter who competed at a pretty high level in high school.
First off, I don’t have any trans children, and I honestly don’t have any deep relationships with any trans people (that I’m aware of). This is not because I’m trying to avoid such relationships. It just hasn’t happened yet. That said, if I had an MTF daughter who wanted to compete in high school sports, I am 100% certain that I would want my daughter to have as many opportunities to do so as any other high school athlete. If I’m being honest, I might have a different perspective than I am going to express in the remainder of my comment.
I’ve often had some thoughts along the lines of Suzanne Nielson. Imagine a time in the future (because science is nowhere near able to do this now) where every single person could receive a “biological handicap” score. This is similar to the handicap system in golf (which I know very little about) but rather than reflecting a golfer’s skill, a biological handicap value would be a measure of how “advantaged” (or disadvantaged) any person was based on their biology (genetics, etc.) that they have very little control over. A person would probably have a different biological handicap for any given sport because every person’s biology is different. If such a biological handicap system existed, then it would be easy to level the playing field in individual sports. For example, in a long distance running race, all the athletes would be seeded according to their biologically adjusted recent performances. The podium for the race would also be determined not by who crossed the finish line first, but by who ran the fastest based on their biological handicap. Someone who ran a mile in 7 minutes might actually be determined to stand on the podium higher than a person who ran a mile in 4 minutes. This biological handicap system would also allow men, women, and trans athletes to compete against each other in the same events. Like I said, this would be easy to apply to individual sports, but maybe a system could be put in place so that teams with composite biological handicap scores would compete against each other. At the high school level, this might mean that rather than forming leagues based on school size, leagues would be formed based on the composite handicap scores of their athletes in any given year. The leagues could be adjusted sport by sport and season by season based on these scores.
This biological handicap concept seems like the ultimate in fairness, as it allows everyone to compete on a level playing field regardless of genetics, sexuality, hormones, etc. All of those factors are properly accounted for. Well, science obviously isn’t going to provide us an accurate biological handicap system anytime soon. In fact, what is obvious from the OP, comments, and everything I’ve read is that science isn’t really sure at all how to accurately level the playing field for MTF athletes when competing with females. This is really where the crux of the issue lies for me, and unfortunately we simply don’t know the answer right now. I agree with Jacob L that the one year of testosterone suppressants probably doesn’t always transform an MTF into someone who can compete fairly with females. I don’t know that for certain, but I have been heavily involved in athletics my whole life, and so have my kids, and I’m pretty skeptical that one year of testosterone suppresants produces a level playing field.
What is fair anyway? Is it fair for an MTF to switch from being a below average performer when competing with the boys to an above average performer when competing with the girls after a year of hormone treatments? I can tell you that the girls that this MTF person is outperforming are going not going to think this is fair at all (and they *absolutely* will notice, and not think it is fair, when an MTF who was a low performer when competing with the boys is now able to outperform many of the girls after a year of treatment). It seems like ideally you’d want to transition an MTF in such a way that they compete at the same level with the girls post-treatment as they did with the boys pre-treatment. This is simply not possible right now, though.
I’ve heard a lot of people, including some commenters here, talk about how high school sports shouldn’t be taken so seriously, everybody should just be there to have fun, it shouldn’t be so competitive, etc. This reasoning is used as justification for allowing MTF athletes to compete and potentially outperform girls. I really disagree with this. Let’s consider distance running–cross country and track and field in high schools–since I know a lot about that (I competed, and I’ve had multiple kids compete at a pretty high level, but not at a super elite level). Let’s forget about the kids trying to win state championships and get college scholarships and talk about everyone else. Well, there are certain track and cross country meets that are invitation only. Some high school athletes know that they are never, ever going to win state or an elite invitational, but they choose to work their butt off just to get to the state meet or the invitational. To them, that is success, and I can tell you it can be a very positive thing for a high school athlete to set a goal to just qualify for one of these competitions and then have the discipline to follow through to see if they can make it happen. If we have MTF athletes taking spots because they have a biological advantage, then that means some of these girls aren’t going to make to these meets that they otherwise would have qualified for. The same is true for the next level. Some kids know that they are never, ever going to be invited to an elite meet or qualify for the state meet, but they just want to make the varsity meets and be in the field with the best athletes. That’s the goal they are working for, and some of them set a goal and work their butts off to make it happen. Again, this can be a very positive thing for these kids and can lead them to be successful in other aspects of life in the future. If we just say, well, it doesn’t really matter how fast you run, just come out with the team and run together for fun, that’s a very different dynamic. I mean, that can be a very good thing for some kids, too, but it will remove the desire of these kids to set goals, be disciplined, and put in the daily work to try to achieve those goals. If you’re saying it doesn’t really matter that we let unfairly let MTF athletes run with the girl since it doesn’t really matter who was on the podium, well, if you really feel that way, it would be easy to say fine, MTF athletes can compete with the girls, but they are always seeded last. They always run with the junior varsity (or lower) runners, they always run in the slowest heats, etc. Would the people that argue that performances in high school sports don’t really matter be OK with that arrangement where the MTF athletes can compete, but at the lowest levels, or is it only OK to potentially unfairly have MTF athletes bump female athletes down to lower levels?
The OP asked whether people had discussed this issue with a daughter. I have done this with a daughter that has only been out of high school for a few years. My daughter is very accepting of LGBTQ individuals. I remember her showing me some cases where MTF high school athletes in other states were just absolutely dominating their competition at state meets (not sure about testosterone treatments). My daughter was an above average runner, but she was never going to get a scholarship at a good college, nor was she ever going to be on the podium at state. Her goals were to be able to qualify for some of the high profile races where she knew she would lose badly to the elite runners. She worked really, really, really hard to do this. I think this effort of setting goals and working to achieve them was very good for her. She said she would be extremely upset if an MTF runner beat her out for the last spot at state or some other meet–if the MTF runner really had an unfair advantage like she’s seen online had happened in other states. And we’re back to the main problem again. How do we make sure things are really fair? Unfortunately, we simply can’t do that right now.
It’s a very difficult issue for me because I really want–and I think female athletes want–things to be fair. However, it just doesn’t seem like we have a good way of ensuring fairness right now. People advocating for MTF athletes to compete with high school girls say that a true MTF individual with a certain amount (sometimes zero!) of hormone treatments make things fair, but I don’t think we’re really sure about that right now. People advocating for girls are saying MTF people shouldn’t compete with them (and take their spots on teams and podiums), unless we can be sure the playing field is truly fair, which we can’t right now. If and until we can truly determine what is required for MTF athletes to fairly compete with girls, it’s really hard to know what to do.
I am personally concerned about the argument that trans athletes are so small in number that we just shouldn’t worry about it. When I was growing up, there were no gay people in my little community–until, that is, the gay rights movement started, and I learned that I had a number of gay friends and acquaintences growing up. I love the trans people are slowly but surely feeling better about being open about their identity, but I do wonder that as this continues to happen whether the number of MTF athletes at the high school level may continue to increase. Yes, they will always be a small minority, but if that small minority gets a bit larger, it will potentially bump more girls off of podiums and teams if MTF athletes are allowed to compete. Some people just say to ignore this problem until it gets bigger, but I suspect it is going to get at least a bit bigger, so it is probably wise to start the ball rolling on sorting all of this now rather than later.
mountainclimber479- I agree 100% with your thoughts on this. I honestly think a big part of the discrepancy on views here might stem with people who don’t realize how important the perception of fair competition is even among non-elite athletes. I think those pushing for integration of trans males into biological female sports underestimate just how severe and far-reaching the backlash will be and unpredictable the consequences will be. This doesn’t map at all like gay marriage in its impact, and just saying “deal with the loss” will not fly with most people and won’t get better over time. I believe it will lead to the election of people a lot worse than Natalie Cline (thank goodness she’s gone now).
Even while writing my various posts on this topic I thought about the various age-graded calculators that exist to convert times for older runners in different races at various distances to runners racing in their prime. Maybe there is a pattern here we could consider.
For individual endurance sports, perhaps some version of an biological adjustment could be made, similar to the age-grading used by USATF:
https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20794116/a-guide-to-age-grading/
For team sports, I don’t think this would work at all. That is why I think a better path forward would be to encourage and develop co-ed/mixed leagues.
Jacob L,
Just to be clear: You have your terms backwards when you refer to “integration of trans males into biological female sports”.
Typically it is transgender women who are controversial in women’s sports because transgender women were born male. Transgender men or “trans males” as you refer to them are born female and choose to take testosterone in quantities that put them through a full puberty where they grow a beard and become more muscular and masculine.
This being more clear, there are questions if transgender men should be allowed to continue competing in women’s sports even though they are “biological women” as you phrase it. But no one approaches these questions. It appears you are sure you know the answers to all the questions without even knowing who you are referring to.
lws329 – Thanks for the correction, I appreciate you catching that and correcting me. I do know the difference, but it is certainly good and helpful to clarify and to avoid confusion. Truth be told, a lot of my posts here are made while I am on my Peloton bike! There seem to be a fair amount of gramatical errors as well, for which I apologize.
My earlier posts got it right with regards to fairness concerns (see my response to BradD). Wish there were a way to edit my posts. Regardless, I agree that the main concern for fairness will be trans female athletes to a much greater degree than trans male athletes. Trans male athletes don’t raise any fairness concerns in my book.
Just skimmed all this, but am I getting it right that Jacob L, the heavy-hitting commenter here, an RN who cares for trans-individuals, has trans friends, etc. doesn’t actually know what the term trans-woman means? A bit suss. A lot suss, actually.
Many more assaults are committed by legislators and clergy than by those in the trans community. That is one reason I applaud the trend I’ve observed recently by major retailers to have a single area to try on clothes, each cubicle with high walls and doors, doors to the floor, leaving no gaps.
Family bathrooms, incredibly helpful for families with a family member with a disability, would be another option to expand.
Rockwell nails it when he/she/they (I don’t remember) says, “before the trans community became the boogie man of the culture war.” It seems that conservatives have come to recognize that it is not wise to vilify a sizable swath of the population, who come with friends and family. However, the trans (and drag) communities have a smaller footprint, so are safer (for conservatives) to alienate.
They seem always to need someone to be their fall guy.
@JacobL
Yes, BYU seems to produce its fair share of successful runners. You could plausibly say that the LDS environment (hard working, sober, etc) makes for a running-compatible lifestyle.
Another plausible explanation is that because the LDS lifestyle produces more than its fair share of trauma, LDS runners are trying to self medicate in a somewhat healthy way and without harmful substances. Running in particular seems to attract its share of people trying to rid themselves of their private demons. As an ultra runner myself (just finished my first 100 miler in 28 hours) I can tell you that the inside joke is that many runners are out there escaping something.
Someone took my handle – I did make an inversion in, from what I can tell, is one of my several posts addressing the issue of how best to incorporate trans athletes into sports. If that renders my opinions invalid in your judgement, that’s for you to decide. You are welcome to reread them if you want this is the case (I did). I most certainly do know what a trans woman is, even if you think I am “suss”. My former business partner (June) came out as a trans woman and lost custody of her children in a very contentious divorce, stemming in some part due to her transition to trans female after their temple marriage. I basically talked her out of suicide for months and months on end and checked in on her every day. I don’t claim to have any answers on this issue or to be an expert at all. I certainly wouldn’t consider myself a “heavy hitter”. I can only tell you how I feel as an athlete and what I have seen and experienced in my own personal life. I only offer as my opinion that I think that the majority of Americans will not accept the position that full inclusion/equality means allowing trans women to compete against biological women in sports.
The person who I do read very closely on this subject is Benjamin Ryan, who is a contributor to the Washington Post, New York Times, NBC News, The Atlantic, and The Guardian. He has an entire section on his website of good journalism on this area and I read it pretty regularly.
Toad: I do think you are onto something with the self-medication/regimentation that comes from the catharsis of endurance sports like running. My cousin who will be the first to say that running is no substitute for anti-depressants (nor should it be thought of as a treatment for clinical depression or other mental health issues) nonetheless has a bumper sticker that reads, “Running: Cheaper Than Therapy.”
My SIL won the Deseret News marathon in 2009. She was a closeted lesbian at the time and even married a man years later. Her story of extricating herself from the marriage and coming out in her adult life along with the enormous amount of pain, shame, and trauma that she felt all through HS growing up in Utah County is heart-wrenching. When we’ve discussed the issue candidly, I think she acknowledges that at some level running was a way of coping with her concealed sexual identity. As soon as she came out, she stopped competing and didn’t run for years. She has now resumed running, but only recreationally and for fun, not for competition.
https://www.deseret.com/2009/7/25/20330875/marathon-moxie-scott-survives-fatigue-pain-to-claim-women-s-crown/
My older daughter was in synchronized (now artistic) swimming for close to a decade, and that’s a sport that has just now started allowing men to compete on the international level. This will be the first Olympics with male synchronized swimmers (and yes, they’ve all seen that SNL sketch). What makes it interesting is that synchro is one of the few sports that doesn’t favor athletes with a certain body type (ie. tiny female gymnasts or broad- shouldered speed swimmers) so having a male body does not confer any particular advantage.
We’re days in to this comment thread, and a lot has been written, so I’ll try to be brief.
Are trans girls, infact, girls? This is the central, underlying question here that not everyone agrees on. There are references in these comments about “male” bodies in locker rooms. There are comments about girls competing against “MTF individuals”. For me, if you accept that they are girls, then the situations resolve themselves pretty quickly. They get to participate. If they are girls* then we need to have policies limiting their participation. If they are some other category, something not fully “girl” then there is always going to be an impulse to protect the girls from the girls*.
I have a trans son. Through him, I know a handful of trans teens. As far as I understand, they consider themselves to be fully the gender they are, regardless of what their birth certificates might say. Some of them are on hormones, so aren’t. Regardless, they want to be accepted for the gender they are. They don’t classify themselves as girls* or boys*. They simply are girls and boys. To continually segregate them into different bathrooms and different sports teams feels like putting them into categories that they themselves don’t see themselves in. My son does not introduce himself as a “trans boy”. He’s just a boy. Yes, they acknowledge that they are trans, but again, they still feel fully “boy” or “girl”.
Brian: “No one would transition gender to cheat at sports especially for children” Agree, and yet I remember when I first heard about the Church’s policy (in the 70s) about sex change surgery, that if you did FTM, you could never ever receive the priesthood, and I remember (as a tween girl) thinking “Holy cow, this church is terrified that a woman will deceive her way into getting the priesthood.” It made zero sense to me at the time. Now it only makes sense in the way that patriarchy is both a symptom and cause of male insecurity.
My own non-binary kid didn’t really go through any of this because they have no interest in sports and also didn’t come out until college age. I really feel for the kids and parents of today’s trans kids trying to navigate these shark-infested waters.
When I was in Germany (back now!) we were at one of spas that is textile-free, and our whole reason for this trip was a diversion from my upcoming lumpectomy and breast cancer treatment. I really appreciated that a fellow guest in the spa had undergone a full mastectomy. For some reason it eased my anxiety tremendously. Life is full of variety. There’s no one ideal human body. Being healthy is more important than the notions we have built up in our minds. To some extent, gender segregation contributes to body anxiety. I don’t think the US could ever really embrace the type of body positivity and acceptance that Germany has, but it was a nice break. I can only imagine how upsetting it would feel to be in a body that didn’t match my self-perception. Every day the mirror is a traitor to how you actually feel.
I’m catching up on old posts and just wanted to make one point: the highly competitive nature of scholarships for college athletes is a specifically American phenomenon that doesn’t have to be that way. In places more closely matching my ideal model of higher education funding, I doubt anyone is worrying too much about a trans girl taking away their cis daughter’s future. There are likely still debates to have over participation in sport at elite levels, but it might be easier to have those discussions when not entangled with school so much.
Chadwick and Janey
That was a good, insightful affirmative, compassionate comment by Utah Governor Cox in 2022(?)
In 2024, however, he largely flip-flopped during the legislative session, it being an election year, and all.
He even had a slogan, “Disagree better”.
Then he called gender-affirming healthcare for transgender people “gender mutilation surgery” during a talk at George Washington University.
He apologized.
Maybe everyone felt much better.
Hey, I want to thank all of you for maintaining a calm and respectful tone in this discussion. I wrote this post from research, not from personal experience. I’ve learned a lot from reading everyone’s comments, especially the ones from athletes, or who know trans athletes well. Those are valuable perspectives. I understand some issues better.
Women’s sports are for female athletes, not males who don’t like the fact that they’re male. It’s insulting and humiliating for girls who are trying to optimize their athletic performance to be beaten by males taking drugs to reduce theirs.
This is discrimination against female athletes. The female athletic division was created to give female athletes opportunities in sports. By allowing males into the girl’s division, those opportunities are taken away. We are not walking hormone levels. There are thousands of differences between male and female bodies that are not erased with a simple hormone injection. How insulting. Girl’s sports are not social circles for these males to make friends or treatment programs for them to feel good about themselves.
I’m honestly astounded at the self-centered and selfish attitudes the parents (and it’s usually the parents) pushing for their male children to be included in girl’s sports exhibit. They seem to think the entire world should revolve around their child, but this isn’t just about one athlete. The presence of on male athlete affects every female athlete in the league. That’s hundreds of girls. There is always a trade-off in sports. One athlete’s inclusion means another’s exclusion. There are limited spots on the field. Why do we need to include male athletes in women’s athletics when that means a female athlete will be excluded? Why does that male, who iskre than welcome on the boys team, have a right to be included instead of a female athlete?
We already have overwhelming evidence that not only do so-called “hormone treatments” not erase male advantage, but males who have blocked their puberty early also excel against female athletes. Puberty blockers also can cause taller growth in height as they prevent growth plates from fusing. Here are 5 males who have blocked puberty and their performances:
LB: ranked in the top 10 for track and field in the entire nation. Won the New England Championship meet and placed top three in state championships in three events, setting school records.
HM: Collegiate basketball player who led his team to the national championships his sophomore year. Has won a plethora of awards including Female Athlete of the Year (of all sports) in his division.
TD: led two separate club volleyball teams to national championship titles, was named to all-tournament team. Led school team to first state title game in school history. Won state-wide player of the year award.
IC: led club volleyball team to national tournament. Qualified for USAV Junior Olympics in grass volleyball. Played on varsity freshman year and dominated his school vb team. Caused a severe head injury to an opposing female player.
SH: ran varsity cross country and qualified for state all four years. Was fastest runner from sophomore year on and is at number 6 fastest in school history. Also qualified for state in track and field events.
There are more. These are not performances in line with “average girls.” And they occur at above average rates for males who “block puberty”
Female athletes who “identify” as boys overwhelmingly choose to continue to compete in the female division. For some reason, they seem to be able to set aside their “identity” when winning is on the line. Why can males not do the same? Why can’t we teach males to be kind to each other and accept those who are different? To support each other?
Please take a look through the site: http://www.hecheated.org and http://www.shewon.org to see the damage these males have done to women’s sports. Be sure to read through the “Myths” section and filter for high school athletes in the results. What has been allowed to happen is horrifying.
J…j,j,j,j
Quite a screed there. I can agree about males in females sports. Since we’re dealing with anecdote –here’s one. I once knocked out a female teammate going for a rebound. And I’m female. Ah, the dangers of women’s sports.
However…Here’s the but.
We are talking about girls, little girls, preadolescent girls, adolescent girls. And I don’t think we should stigmatize and ostracize a little girl based on somebodies religious belief.
There’s the role of sports. Female and Co-ed sports. There’s girls school sports (and small school vs large), club sports, recreation leagues, kids just kickin’ it at the park. There are weight classifications, skill levels, age brackets. So if you want to present medical and scientific arguments from legitimate peer-reviewed sources, I think it should be considered. As research continues, let’s consider the body of evidence.
For instance a very very recent British Journal of Sports Medicine article , ” Strength, power and aerobic capacity of transgender athletes: a cross-sectional study” finds that um, transwomen might be at a disadvantage. Yeah, it’s one study.
But we should never lose sight of we are talking about girls. Cis girls and Trans girls are girls. All girls need to grow up in an inclusive and welcoming environment. A world where they can also play sports and have fun.
DaveW, you wrote:
Are trans girls, infact, girls? This is the central, underlying question here that not everyone agrees on.
I actually don’t think this is the heart of the debate. The OP framed this in the 2 hypotheticals (e.g., Michael-to-Michelle vs Jack-to-Jill) and so to me this was always a discussion about fairness. I’ve tried to draw some boundaries and make abundantly clear that my concerns are about unequal playing field and fairness, not transphobia or trans erasure.
I suspect that the bulk of the literature will show that trans female athletes before puberty or after will have a significant advantage in most sports that involve strength, endurance, or power. I believe this is why the NCAA’s position has changed pretty quickly as the real-world consequences are unfolding.
Imagine we took sex and gender out of the discussion. I could easily say that 9 year old boys and 8 year old boys are boys, while also maintaining that 9 year old boys shouldn’t compete against 8 year old boys in youth sports.
In my view, I have no hesitation saying trans girls are girls (no asterisk) while also wanting to be judicious in where and when they compete for the sake of fairness.
J – your comment is out of line. I specifically asked that comments reflect the ideas in the post. You’ve posted a tirade that doesn’t connect at all to what’s in the post. This isn’t a forum to recycle generic transphobic ideas. Engage with the post or stay off.