After a flurry of posts following the events of January 6, 2021 and the bumpy transition to the Biden presidency on January 20, 2021, there have been few posts here at W&T touching on presidential politics. Post election, there was less to talk about and there were few Mormon angles to pursue. Also, “Trump fatigue” was a factor for many of us and still is, leading to some just tuning out most political discussions. But with the 2024 presidential election just five months away, things are heating up again. It promises to be a rough few months and a historically bitter election campaign. Voters are, on the whole, unhappy with the two presumptive candidates presented by the major parties and, of course, one of them was just convicted of 34 felonies in New York state court. Let’s look at where things are right now, what developments may arise in the next few months, and how this impacts the LDS Church and its members. I’m going to use a Q&A format to keep my discussion focused and fairly straightforward.
What’s going to happen next in the Trump hush money election interference case?
This trial appears to be the only one that will be concluded before the upcoming election. With verdicts now delivered, each side will soon offer post-trial motions, such as the Defendant moving to have the current gag order rescinded. The Defendant will meet with a New York probation officer, who will prepare a very interesting pre-sentencing report for the Court. The sentencing hearing is scheduled for July 11 before the judge — the jury’s work is completed at this point. I am guessing the parties will submit briefs to the judge suggesting not only a proposed sentence but also how to deal with the logistics of incarcerating a former president given the duties of the Secret Service to protect him at all times.
What is a sentence going to look like here?
First, no judge tells someone convicted of 34 felonies to just go home and not do it again. And, at the other extreme, it seems unlikely the judge would impose a sentence of several years to be served at the local state prison, given the duties of the ex-President’s protection detail. Mr. Trump’s lack of remorse or contrition, paired with the ten contempt rulings against him during the proceeding, certainly weighs against him at sentencing. It might be a one- or two-year sentence, served initially on weekends at a secure location in New York (Trump Tower or some secure government location), with limitations on visitors and media access during those weekends. But any sentence will likely be deferred pending the resolution of the many appeals which will no doubt be filed by the Defendant’s attorneys in New York appellate courts. The United States Supreme Court will hear an appeal from this case only if the Defendant can present a constitutional issue that the Court then agrees to take up. The US Supreme Court is not required to hear an appeal.
It is entirely unclear how Trump will continue to campaign as the Republican nominee should this or a more severe incarceration regime be imposed and not deferred beyond election day. Such is the lot of a convicted felon, who loses a great deal of control over their life circumstances.
How is this going to affect the November 2024 US presidential election?
This is the big question. Early post-verdict polling suggests a small percentage of Trump voters are now disinclined to vote for him in November. In a close race, that’s enough to swing an election. Here’s where things get rather speculative. It’s unlikely but nevertheless possible that if that trend continues in coming weeks, the Republican Party convention (held in mid-July) might choose to nominate a different candidate rather than ride a losing horse right to the finish line. Politicians hate to lose. It is even possible that, faced with a younger non-Trump candidate with less baggage and broader appeal, President Biden might decline to run for a second term rather than lose to say Nikki Haley (see Lyndon Johnson in 1968 for the most recent parallel).
It has been a long time since a dark-horse candidate upended a US presidential race, but it is not unprecedented. We are used to rather predictable candidates representing both major parties running rather predictable campaigns, with the loser at some point graciously conceding to the victor. This has not always been the case in United States presidential elections and, it would appear, it will not be so in 2024. A significant third-party candidate garnering a noticeable percentage of votes or a dark-horse major party candidate obtaining a major party nomination could happen in 2024. Let’s hope political violence does not become part of the story this time around.
These guys are really old.
Trump turns 78 this month. President Biden is 81. Most people seem to think this is really old for the demanding job of a US president. President Nelson turns 100 in September. President Oaks and President Eyring are both 91. Depending on your point of view, that either means nah, our presidential candidates aren’t really that old, or wow, our LDS leaders are really old, probably too old to be running a global religious enterprise. I’ll bet very few Mormons favoring either party complain about how old the presumptive candidates are!
What about an October surprise?
It’s hard to top a felony conviction. If something comes out of left field in October, it would probably be in foreign affairs, say another military conflict that gets everyone’s attention and beckons US involvement. Historically, overseas military involvement by US forces rallies most voters behind the sitting president, but who knows whether that would hold true in 2024. If Biden handles it well, it might rally additional support for him. If he doesn’t, or if Trump’s predictable claim that “they wouldn’t have done this if I were president” is seen as plausible, it might hurt Biden. And who knows what our thriving misinformation networks on social media and fringe journalism will come up with as the election nears.
Where does the Church come into all of this?
I think the LDS leadership is doing its best to just sit this one out, that is avoid making any statements this presidential election cycle. So we are walking into what may be the defining election of the 21st century, with the possibility of widespread domestic unrest that will roil wards and stakes as much as states and parties — and they are basically saying and doing nothing, apart from pleas for civility which are largely ignored. Not that there is an easy course of action to recommend. Almost anything they say will alienate some of the membership. Rock and a hard place.
Is the Church in a lose-lose situation here?
Honestly, it might be. The Church seems to be leaking progressive members, who are getting increasingly frustrated with feeling like the LDS Church has become the Church of Trump. LDS leaders, as noted above, have not done much to repudiate this tendency. LDS leaders themselves may be frustrated some LDS seem to be taking their cues from Trump rather than from LDS teachings or statements. The choice of LDS leaders to wait five or six weeks before publicly acknowledging Biden as the winner of the 2020 election still stands out as an implicit show of support for Trump and his supporters. But any sort of explicit statement by LDS leadership trying to bring more balance back would no doubt alienate many conservative Mormons.
LDS leadership probably hopes that simply republishing the LDS political neutrality statement (as amended to remove the good moral character suggestion, another concession to Trump) before every election is sufficient, but that’s sort of central headquarters thinking. At the ground level of wards and stakes, many non-Trump LDS are not convinced or reassured by the “say nothing and hope for the best” leadership approach. Apart from those who formally exit or quietly cease attending, there are plenty of others who still attend but for whom the Church and LDS leadership have lost a fair amount of credibility. My impression is that most remaining progressive or Democratic Mormons (maybe 20% of active US?) are mildly or deeply frustrated by the recent rightward lurch of conservative members and LDS leadership. Partisan sentiments will no doubt be amplified and sometimes openly expressed in LDS meetings as the election approaches. Just imagine discussions in LDS adult Sunday School when the material covers king-men and chief judges and secret combinations in a few weeks.
What about the US Constitution hanging by a thread?
You have no doubt heard the Mormon claim that at some point in the future the US Constitution will hang by a thread and the Mormons will ride in to save it. It’s always the commies or the socialists who are the threat in repeated tellings of this story. Surprise! It appears Trump and the Republican extremists (they’re not really conservative anymore) are the ones that are crashing through constitutional guardrails and rewriting political norms. The irony seems lost on LDS members and leaders alike.
So let’s talk about it. I’m going to focus on the LDS angle.
- Do you know anyone who no longer attends your LDS ward or branch because of politics or political views expressed or pushed by local leaders or fellow ward members?
- In your experience, are local members avoiding political statements in Sunday meetings? Or not?
- Do you share my sense that both the membership and the leadership have moved to the right, maybe way right, in recent years?
- Is the Church in a no-win situation here? What could the Church do or say to retain frustrated members without alienating new ones?

I may want to comment more after I sleep off some of that Trump fatigue you mentioned. I am just SO sick of hearing his disgusting name over and over. My news feed has about 25 articles per day on the orange idiot. Then there are another 20 on his idiot followers. Who can be the biggest clown and grab the most headlines. And our media goes right along with giving tons of attention to the clowns. No sensible politician can get a word in edgewise because clowns are taking up all the discussion in Congress, in the news, and even in the legal system. There aren’t that many of them, yet they monopolize every bit of everyone’s with their idiotic tantrums.
Dave,
You write as if the jury verdict is legitimate. It certainly has legal legitimacy, until it is overturned. But is the verdict morally legitimate? Is it fair? Is it just?
Are you familiar with “lawfare”? Per wikipedia: “Lawfare is the use of legal systems and institutions to damage or delegitimize an opponent, or to deter an individual’s usage of their legal rights.”
Is the Trump hush money trial an example of “lawfare”? I have read analysis of this case by legal experts who are not Trump supporters who are critical of the case and the prosecutorial arguments and judicial decisions.
I see “lawfare” as a serious corruption of the Rule of Law. I see those who rely on the legal system to defeat political opposition as a great threat to the country. I don’t think I am alone.
By the way, Nelson Mandela was a “felon”. His political opposition gave him a life sentence. Aren’t we all happy that sentence was reversed?
As for the questions about the church’s political engagement, I support a response similar to what Nephi gave as recorded in the 7th chapter of Helaman. For is not the condition of America today similar to that of the Nephites? Note this description given in 3 Nephi 7:2
“And the people were divided one against another; and they did separate one from another into tribes, every man according to his family and his kindred and friends; and thus they did destroy the government of the land.”
The Manhattan and DC Tribes will seemingly convict any and all things MAGA. We can safely assume the opposite would occur in “Red” Tribes. Is this not a destruction of our government? How is the government repaired?
You have no doubt heard the Mormon claim that at some point in the future the US Constitution will hang by a thread and the Mormons will ride in to save it. It’s always the commies or the socialists who are the threat in repeated tellings of this story. Surprise! It appears Trump and the Republican extremists (they’re not really conservative anymore) are the ones that are crashing through constitutional guardrails and rewriting political norms. The irony seems lost on LDS members and leaders alike.
That’s one narrative. Of course, the other side says that it’s Biden and the Democrat extremists crashing through constitutional guardrails and rewriting political norms.
The few of us left in the middle see how both sides are in the process of falling off of the cliff in different directions.
The real problem is trying to look at everything through a highly political lens, and then making assumptions based on that perception. For example, the complaint about “[t]he choice of LDS leaders to wait five or six weeks before publicly acknowledging Biden as the winner of the 2020 election” only looks like implicit support for Trump until you look at the Church’s past practices. In 2000, they didn’t congratulate Bush as the winner until after the legal challenges had finished and the Supreme Court had ruled. In 2020, that didn’t happen until the Supreme Court dismissed Texas v. Pennsylvania on December 11, 2020, at which point the Church acknowledged Biden as the winner (just as they had done with Bush in 2000).
Is that bias? Or simply following a neutral procedure? If the delay in 2020 means that they were supporting Trump, does that mean that Church leadership was supporting Gore in 2000? Or is it only bias when it swings against your preferred politics?
Thanks for the comments.
Disciple, a quick response. “Lawfare” is best applied to private litigants in civil cases. Some corporations and some individuals are more litigious than others. A few are very litigious. Mr. Trump is the epitome of a very litigious individual. The term seems entirely misapplied as to prosecutors. First, their job is to bring lots of cases, so it seems wrongheaded to accuse them of … bringing lots of cases. Second, prosecutors don’t like bringing cases they will likely lose, so they only file cases where there is substantial evidence to support a guilty verdict.
In the present Trump case, twelve independent jurors (not Biden, not the US DOJ, not the judge, not the prosecutors) found him guilty on 34 counts. If there are defects in the case, evidence, or trial procedures, then those are appealable issues. With appellate review, the judicial system is, to a degree, self-corrective.
You said, “You write as if the jury verdict is legitimate.” Yes, I did.
Every conference we are told that Christ guides his church. His hand is in the tiller and He is in control.
Every time the church does something that seems off, I wonder, “did Jesus say to do that?”
Does Jesus Christ really want members of His church voting for a man that represents the opposite of every single thing that He taught?
It _should_ go without saying: obviously not. But it clearly needs to be said, because so many people seem to be blinded.
When the church happily offends everyone on the LGBTQ spectrum, but dares not raise the ire of the party of hate and control, it makes you wonder just how important the truth is to them, or how much influence Christ really has.
In the present Trump case, twelve independent jurors (not Biden, not the US DOJ, not the judge, not the prosecutors) found him guilty on 34 counts.
Today’s RealClearPolitics linked to an article that cites 13 separate basis for Trump’s convictions to be overturned on appeal. Several of those have to do with the jury instructions. In our justice system, jurors are not as independent as people think. Judges have a lot of power to control verdicts through how they instruct the jury on what the law is and what evidence they are allowed to consider.
Just because a jury ruled a certain way does not necessarily mean that it was a legitimate verdict. That’s why there is an appeals process, and there are many reasonable bases to question the validity of the verdict based on the process that led up to the instructions they were given.
There are many examples in US history of juries getting things wrong because of pre-existing biases (think Jim Crow era). As A Disciple said, just because something is legally legitimate does not mean that it is morally legitimate or just.
And just to clarify, I am not saying that the Trump verdicts are unjust. I am simply pointing out that the perception that the jury got it wrong is not unreasonable. It’s important to question your assumptions before you challenge others.
You know what is very liberating? When you think both presidential candidates are unfit for office (for different reasons). I have no stake in this race because I’m totally against both candidates and Kamala Harris and Tim Scott / JD Vance (likely VP picks) don’t offer me any sense of relief either. Sitting this one out and hoping our institutions overcome our leaders.
Let us not ignore the central problem here. Why is it that we have two candidates for President that are among the worst candidates in history? It is because the great hordes of modern voters are among the worst in history.
To be a good voter, one must be willing to put forth the time and effort required to be informed about the issues and candidates. Far too voters are willing to do so. They only time they spend on political issues is watching the campaign commercials that appear during hot dog eating contests.
Sadly, the quality of voting among church members is no better on average. The active ones spend all of their time in meetings planning for future meetings, while the inactive ones spend their time listening to Waylon Jennings in honky tonks. Either way, they are not spending their time studying the issues.
If the Church wants better voters, it must give members the critical thinking skills and the time they need to be good voters. If not, we might as well trough the Constitution completely aside and just install Dua Lipa as the Commander in Chief.
Commenting is easy. But please provide receipts for the following:
“You write as if the jury verdict is legitimate.” Proof it was not legitimate? Personal juror bias is insufficient. That’s why the jury is a party of 12 and not a party of 1. Biases among 12 peers will cut both ways and cancel each other out. Otherwise Trump has a horrible attorney.
“Of course, the other side says that it’s Biden and the Democrat extremists crashing through constitutional guardrails and rewriting political norms.” Such as?
Otherwise similar to Anna I’m just not interested in Trump. I scroll past anything Trump related. That’s my privilege to do so.
The angle I am interested in exploring is age. Presumably at some point we can get younger presidential candidates. But we will never get younger prophets. As long as people are living longer, and there is no re-set or retirement, the future of the church is leaders in their 90’s. For loads of reasons, I’m not interested in being part of that business model.
Do you know anyone who no longer attends your LDS ward or branch because of politics or political views expressed or pushed by local leaders or fellow ward members?
Yes, we no longer attend and the the US membership’s strong embrace of Trumpism is a big reason (not the only reason) for this. The Economist put out a voting model a few months ago and the 2nd strongest predictor of being a Trump supporter behind being Evangelical Christian was being active LDS. We live in a very pro-Trump area of southern Utah and at a certain point the casual comments and what we viewed to be Trumpism bordering on idolatry led us to really feel alienated from our fellow co-congregants. While political diversity can be a strength in some situations, if the sum total of immersing oneself in the scriptures, general conference talks, and worship leads one to become more supportive of a man like Trump, something is fundamentally broken in the spiritual community in my estimation. I always grew up with the biblical phrase “by their fruits ye shall know them.” We chose not to baptize our son when he turned 8 because I don’t think the church culture and participation is turning out good, moral people if they strong majority end up supporting someone like Trump. I didn’t want him to passively absorb the rationalizations, the conspiracy theories, and the false equivalencies of Trumpism by youth leaders and members of the ward who support who I view to be a wicked leader.
Is the Church in a no-win situation here? What could the Church do or say to retain frustrated members without alienating new ones?
We don’t presently attend and as long as the bulk of the US membership favors Trump, I don’t think we will attend (except for maybe Christmas and Easter) for the forseeable future baring some major changes. I think members of the church can be conservative, they can be liberal, they can be libertarian, they can even be socialist or communist. But I don’t think the church as a whole can support a man like Trump, which it unfortunately does by how its US members vote.
My wife keeps saying she wishes that Elder Uchtdorf and Elder Kearon would start their own church and we would attend it! I kind of like that idea. For now, we basically consider ourselves DIY home churchers. I think a good step the church could take would simply be to say unequivocally “Trump did not win the 2020 election. It was not stolen and Biden was elected the legitimate president.” To go one step further, I think the church should state that its members should not vote for someone who denies the legitimacy of elections or seeks to overthrow a free and fair election. In my view, one can still be politically neutral by stating the truth and not bearing false witness. Unfortunately, even this statement of truth would likely be alienating to many members who are steeped in a right-wing media ecosystem (it’s not lost on me that one of the first comments to this post was reaction that Trump’s criminality is nothing but partisan lawfare).
I want to add to my previous comment about the importance of jury instructions. Jury instructions are the most common source of reversible error in criminal appeals. As the California Appeals court said in People v, Thompkins (1987), “But from our appellate perspective, of the many and varied contentions of trial court error we are asked to review, nothing results in more cases of reversible error than mistakes in jury instructions.”
People like to have the impression of juries as independent groups of 12 people, who have all the facts and come to a just and fair decision, but the fact of our system is that there are many other influences that take place that guide what the jury is allowed to consider in the first place. That is a major reason why there is an appellate process that can go all the way to the Supreme Court (such as with Francis v. Franklin in 1985), and there is a constitutional prohibition on double jeopardy.
Once a jury finds you not guilty, that is final, but a guilty verdict isn’t final until all of your appeals are exhausted. It’s that way to make sure that the rights of the accused are properly protected.
Was the jury verdict legitimate? Yes, but only in the bounds set by the judge and those jury instructions were totally outside the bounds of lawful instructions.
Did Nelson Mandela have an affair with a prominent porn star and then illegally falsify business records so he could spend campaign money to cover it up?
I am 100% OK with anyone, on either side of the political spectrum, being held accountable for felonies. When we start prosecuting people for imagined/trumped up crimes, then I’ll be worried. Trump’s crimes are real. Ignoring real crimes is a much worse version of “lawfare” than prosecuting them. Maybe Biden’s committed some felonies too, and if so lets get that evidence in front of a judge and prosecute and maybe we’ll get a better candidate that hasn’t committed any felonies!
This just isn’t true. Biden is not one of history’s worst, at least not anywhere other than in the right wing media, for whom the current democratic leadership is *always* the worst there’s ever been. Biden is, at worst, mediocre, and we could do a lot worse than mediocre today. I’m personally closely involved with some aspects of the IIJA bill and it’s rejuvenating the industry I’m in in a way that will both create jobs and benefit the public. He pushed a pretty good immigration bill through that trump killed through his cronies. And best of all, he takes a lot of criticism even from his party – plenty of folks on the US “left” are openly critical of him, while the right gives trump carte blanche.
That said I’d be as happy as anyone to get someone new, third party or even in-party replacement, and just move past all of this. And, hey, if the right need it to feel good about themselves, go ahead and try to bring Biden to court for the journal or the laptop or whatever. I don’t think there’s really anything there, but if we have to do that as a country so the right gets their chance to save face from going all in behind a rotten candidate let’s do it.
I think so, yeah. I think the church has more or less written off the liberals within the church, and is instead chasing growth in Africa (where social norms match more closely with US conservatives, as I understand). If the church backs off at all on abortion or gay marriage or whatever then they lose both the support of parts of the world where they are growing and the support of US conservatives and don’t really gain much because the liberals aren’t coming back. I hate to say but I I think the church’s best path forward is to keep catering to conservatives, and the best choice for any liberal member (or any member whose kids or their friends may be anything other than straight/cis) is to just leave.
Observer,
Just an interesting note about the constitution hanging by a thread…. in the January 6th committee meetings one witness of Trump’s involvement in January 6th was Rusty Bowers, former Arizona Speaker of the House, life long member of the LDS church, and a Republican.
Trump called Rusty up before January 6th and asked him to get together a slate of fake electors showing Trump as the winner in Arizona. Rusty told Trump he voted for him and wanted him to win, but that it was a basic tenet of his faith to uphold the constitution and that what Trump wanted was a violation of the constitution.
Trump threatened him and he still declined. Trump contacted other supporters in Arizona who got together a mob that matched around Rusty’s house shouting horrible things day and night for many weeks to make the family’s life awful. Rusty’s daughter was dying of cancer in their house and they couldn’t have any peace to deal with her decline and death.
I know about this not only from his witness in the committee but from what has been shared by a sister in his ward with Mormon Women for Ethical Government (MWEG), of which I am a member. We all sent Brother Bowers letters thanking him for his integrity and courage.
Sister Emma Adams was the head of MWEG at that time. MWEG’s activity in AZ was credited to flipping the state to Biden. Sister Adams was specifically invited by Biden to speak at a special inaugural mass with leaders from a wide variety of churches because of the influence MWEG is believed to have on the election.
I know it’s easy to look at the rest of the church and say members only have a pro Trump influence. This isn’t entirely true. Many women in the church have been deeply touched by the church’s statements supporting immigrants in 2016 and 2017. Groups of LDS women have tried to be an influence for ethics in politics. If any women want to expand their political influence, MWEG is a nonpartisan source of information and support to make ethical political choices regardless of the peer pressure we experience at church.
I haven’t attended my ward since early in the Trump presidency, so I can’t assess how/if political behavior has changed. People were always pretty circumspect about their politics anyway, at least around me as I was openly liberal about some things. From my vantage point, I do share your sense that both the membership and the leadership have moved to the right, maybe way right, in recent years. What pains me the most are the rifts in my own extended family, but it’s not only the church generating that trend. We seem to be stuck in a no-win loop, and not just in the church, but the nation as a whole. We seem unable to move beyond the negativity and partisan blame-shifting, while the country crumbles from lack of healthy, bipartisan governance, and the world burns with unattended evil fires that threaten to rage out of control. And we simply cannot muster whatever it takes to talk to each other as fellow citizens instead of adversaries.
But I still believe in the rule of law as the foundation of our government, and the apparent crimes committed by a candidate and sitting president must be investigated, prosecuted, and punished, just like we would with any citizen. Regarding the hush money case, I witnessed the teflon effect the scandal had on candidate Trump, and the evidence of the illegal payoff come to light, and the DA put together the case with careful practices, given the certainty that every move would be scrutinized. I was paying attention during jury selection, and both the prosecution and defense selected those jurors. There was nothing ordinary about the case, but there were no shenanigans from the prosecution. Still, I was startled by the speed with which the verdicts returned, and the unanimous guilty verdict for each of the 34 charges spoke to a solid presentation of the evidence.
I’m hopeful about our judicial system, even with its cracks and flaws, that there are people who do their work and uphold a framework of justice. There are more indictments yet to come to trial. I’m hopeful about our democracy, and our election process, that it can be a legitimate count of real voters. I have faith in precinct workers and folks like Dominion, and the system of checks that ensure protection from widespread voter fraud. I’m less hopeful about us voters receiving valid information and making good decisions, but we’re headed into the whitewater of this election regardless. At least 9 months from now there will come an end to this fearful speculation.
I hear nothing, and have heard nothing, at church about Trump. Or about Biden. Trump’s name appears to show up here frequently in threads that were probably not intended to be political, but some people see Trump everywhere, even where is probably isn’t. I am at church every Sunday, and I don’t have a clue how people here vote. No doubt we havre some Trumpists in my ward, but probably also some Bidenists. People on my part of the world seem to leave their politics at home when they come to church. If there has been a Republican takeover, you wouldn’t know it from my location in the mission field.
I don’t know anyone who stopped attending because of politics.
In my community, however, I have noticed an increased reticence on matters political. I think people know that there are issues and people that could turn social calm into a firestorm in seconds. Or that people will stop talking to them because they said something they didn’t like.
To those saying that Trump has been mishandled by the justice system. I agree but for different reasons. The guy should have been put in cuffs and hauled off to jail awaiting trial on January 6, 2021. Heck, he should have been indicted for obstructing justice in the Mueller investigation, and probably a long, long time ago before he was president. The justice system has repeatedly gone too light on him. Plus, let’s not pretend that you more libertarian/conservative folks saying that the jury was mistaken or unfair wouldn’t be screaming your heads off if it had been Biden who had falsified business records to cover up an illicit relationship with an adult film star for the purpose of preventing/promoting election. The chorus of “lock her up” was one of the most memorable slogans in 2016. Republicans have long accused the Clintons, Obama, and Biden of crimes. The only difference with Trump is that there was evidence. Additionally there is no conversation with people who think that Trump isn’t a criminal or is some sort of victim. To my anti-Trump conservative and libertarian brothers and sisters, let’s have a conversation. Sure thing. But Trump is a criminal through and through and has long been and justice appears to finally be coming.
I live in the suburbs of Salt Lake County, and from my vantage point the membership of the church is moving *left*. Among members of my ward under the age of 60, I can count more that I know to be liberal than those that I know to be conservative. I think many members of the church (myself included) have an bias towards assuming that any active member with unknown political opinions must be assumed to be an ETB-conservative. I’m not denying that there are still conservatives out there, nor that they might have grown more vocal. But I think that too many LDS liberals are hiding in the corner for fear that they’re the only ones, and there might come a day when they start to speak up and realize they are far more common than they had assumed.
If I could fast-forward through the next couple of decades in the church, the thing I’m most curious to see play out is the interaction between a very old and very conservative leadership, and local units. At a church level, it isn’t impossible that the church ends up with 30 uninterrupted years of Nelson-Oaks-Bednar presidencies. (That’s not the most likely outcome, but it (or something comparable) is in the realm of possibility.) At a local level, we are already at a point where most bishops and SPs are already gen-X, and increasingly millennials will be filling those roles. (As well as RSPs, EQPs, YWPs, PPs, etc.) I see millennials being largely uninterested in being the conservativism police for church leadership. And I think there is a possibility that the more that Nelson/Oaks/Bednar tighten their grip, the more wards and stakes will slip through their fingers. Outside of the COB, the time of the Baby Boomers is already ended, they’re just up there in their tower unaware that a huge portion of the still active members are already in the process of moving on.
Of course, maybe this is all wishful thinking and it’s just how I’m keeping myself around for the time being.
the constitution only hangs by a thread if Trump and Republicans win.
I think it is interesting that church leadership feigns neutrality or disinterest in politics, but that’s not necessarily the case for their closely family members. Dallin H. Oaks’ daughter Jenny Oaks Baker has been quite vocal and public in her and her family’s support of Trump. Honestly, it boggles the mind that people as prim and supposedly sexually conservative as the Oakses would embrace a rapist and serial philanderer, but worship of the Republican God rather than actual Jesus runs deep, I guess.
I don’t get all the hand-wringing about the Trump conviction details, as though it changes anything significant. Why would the result of this case change the way one decides to vote? And this case in particular, surely not the most heinous charge he has faced in his illustrious career? Whether it’s with this case, the other indictments, the lawsuits about his ridiculous university, the rape lawsuit, his dishonesty, amorality, narcissism, etc., everyone knows who Trump is. You either dislike both the man and his politics (me, so easy decision), or you tolerate all that evil so that you can get the political wins of reversing environmental protections and ensuring that Putin wins in Ukraine.
“falsified business records to cover up an illicit relationship with an adult film star for the purpose of preventing/promoting election.”
(1) Non disclosure agreements are perfectly legal.
(2) Trump’s NDA did not and could not have interfered with the 2020 election. Even if the expense had been disclosed per campaign laws, the disclosure would not have been made until after election day.
(3) The Federal Election have ruled that NDAs are not campaign expenses if the NDA would have been a normal personal expense. For Trump, NDAs are normal personal expenses.
(4) The claim that Trump “falsified” business records is because checks related to the expense were labeled “legal expenses”. How is this labeling wrong? What is the correct labeling? Would a reasonable person think this labeling constituted a felony?
———————–
About the Mueller investigation. The trigger for the whole matter was the “Steele Dossier” – a document eventually shown to be filled with lies and innuendo. This document was funded by the Hillary campaign. The Hillary campaign later agreed to pay fines for not reporting this expense, in violation of campaign finance law.
One wonders how it is that Trump possibly misreporting campaign expenses is a felony matter but Hillary Clinton paying foreign agents to interfere in American politics is only a civil matter, resolved by a simple fine.
“Why would the result of this case change the way one decides to vote?”
2016 and 2020 came down to razor thin margins. I have every reason to believe that 2024 will be won or lost on the margins as well. Josh h said he’s sitting this election out possibly. There are others like him who may be inclined to vote Republican or Democrat who just can’t quite bring themselves to vote at all because of the guilty verdict or maybe because they think the Democrats aren’t playing fair. Maybe a few of those people live in Wisconsin or Arizona. Also a lot of voters don’t even pay much attention to the news or politics but may show up to vote and catch wind of things in October. They’ll see Trump back in to run against Biden and that he has been found guilty. That news, even late to hear, could be a difference in that person’s showing up to vote or not voting Libertarian or Green, as they had intended, but for Biden. But you’re right that most voters aren’t changing their intention to vote for Trump or Biden based on the verdict.
A Disciple, has Hillary or Bill Clinton or Obama ever been indicted by a grand jury? Have they founded an organization that has been found guilty of fraud. Have they been found civilly liable for sexual abuse or deflating the value of assets to cheat on taxes and have hundreds of millions in judgments granted against them? Heck, Democrats and liberals hated George W. Bush when he was president. Was he ever indicted by a grand jury for anything? Additionally, people have been trying to nail Trump legally for a long time, and yet nothing really happened for years. That grand juries have decided to indict and juries have decided to find civilly liable and guilty for crimes is a huge deal in and of itself.
You’d love to see Hillary Clinton indicted and charged with crimes. OK, is there a fair way to do that? Yeah there is. It is called the US Justice system. It’s not perfect by any means. But it’s thorough and rather painstaking in its insistence on adherence to proper procedure, particularly when defendants are wealthy and can afford lawyers to challenge every step along the way. Trump has all sorts of people willing to go to bat for him. Even in the justice system itself. Alito, Thomas, Aileen Cannon, etc. His attorneys have stopped at nothing to thwart the hush-money case from going to trial. And they couldn’t stop it. Hillary has had enemies since she rose to prominence in the 1990s. You’d think that if she is so bad and criminal, something would have stuck by now. But alas, Trump was found guilty by a jury. Trump is such an obvious serial liar. He is such an obvious criminal. He is such an obvious sexual deviant. Why do you insist on treating him as this victim who has done no wrong? Why is he the patron saint of the Republican Party who is beyond criticism? The Republicans couldn’t have found someone better? They didn’t have the courage to swear off Trump? Maybe you don’t support Trump. But by saying that he did nothing wrong, you’re complicit in Trumpism. A bewildering disgrace.
As a boomer, I quit going to church during Covid because I was so tired of hearing all the Trump BS and being told if I tried to counter it with “there’s problems on both sides.” While that may technically be true, it’s not both sides equally anymore but more like an 80/20 or even a 90/10 split with Republicans having more problems. As for the Church, their lack of statements or lackluster statements pale in comparison to what LDS politicians at the state and local level in Utah, AZ, and ID say about Trump and their support of him. Even if Romney or Flake aren’t as critical and actually stand up at times to Trump, they overall seem to still bow to the Trump/MAGA onslaught of misinformation and lies. Anytime Sen. Lee speaks, I just want to puke and when you read the comments in the Deseret News or SL Tribune you can see there is a great division in the church that the church is doing nothing about. Sure it’s nice to plan what we are going to do for Pres. Neilson’s 100th birthday party but what’s that going to do to change the trajectory we are on coming this November. How is Biden being 80 told to run the country when the “Lord’s” church is run by someone turning 100 and seems oblivious to anything except building more temples, which seem to be more symbols of isolation than of God’s intent for the church. I mean even there what does tearing down the Provo Temple and replacing not only the temple but the name of it say about the Church being the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
So after rambling a bit I think 1. the country is in trouble if Trump wins because he will both seek his revenge and change and manipulate the law to get his will and 2. the church is in trouble because it will not confront the truth because it’s worried about numbers or saving face or actually having to admit that what was believed for so long, that Republicans were the righteous party, might actually be wrong now.
Unfortunately, despite its regular avowals of political neutrality, the Church is often happy to promulgate Republican talking points. For instance, in the lead article of this month’s Liahona (June 2024), Elder Rasband rails against standard Culture War conservative bogeymen: “Secularists and governments, including many schools and universities, are coercing conduct and proselytizing immorality, atheism, and moral relativism.” As a teacher myself, I can tell you from experience that most of that statement is nonsense. So much for civility, honesty, and mutual respect.
A Disciple: The only reason Stormy Daniels was paid bubkus is because Trump didn’t want it to hit the news cycle on the heels of his damning Access Hollywood tape. Michael Cohen paid her 13x the allowable amount for a campaign contribution, then filed it as if it was in his role as lawyer, which it wasn’t–there was no retainer, no contract for this work, etc. The amount he had paid was then trued up so that it would cover the taxes (which he would have paid if it had really been legal fees–which is further evidence it wasn’t). It’s no coincidence Al Capone was finally caught on similar trivialities. Paperwork is easier to prove than backroom thuggish statements that are deliberately vague, designed to keep the big guy from implicating himself. Plausible deniability is the way these folks operate.
Maybe the problem is that not enough church members have watched the Sopranos & the Godfather. Maybe they just don’t see these obvious schemes for what they are.
Count me as one who would completely support any politician being prosecuted who is breaking the law, violating the constitution, attempting an insurrection, lying to Congress, etc.
Disciple (of Donald Trump?),
Why try so hard to defend Donald Trump? Maybe you are a political conservative, or dislike Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton, maybe you want even more conservatives on the Supreme Court, or can’t stand to see poor people get health insurance. You can do all those things without Donald Trump, and you would look better doing it! The Republicans could find another candidate with a good chance at winning. You don’t need to try to defend the indefensible. So why go to such lengths for such a horrible person, who his own chief of staff called “the most flawed person I have ever known”? I don’t get it.
I’m with you Hawkgrrrl!
Now remember when Harry Reid declared from the floor of the Senate that Mitt Romney hadn’t paid taxes for ten years? I don’t think that was a crime. But it was a lie and it was election interference. Or maybe it wasn’t election interference. Maybe politicians lying and cheating to win elections is simply the way American elections go.
Remember Reid’s response when asked later about the lie? He said: “Romney didn’t win, did he?”
I am old enough to realize that none of the attacks against Trump are about “justice”. They are about winning and doing so using whatever tools and tricks the contestants can get away with. The great irony of Donald Trump is his political ideology is near identical to that of Bill Clinton. And so are his morals. Yet because Trump is a political foe to the Democrats he must be defeated. And I understand that. But I don’t believe for a second that those attacking Trump care about truth and honesty. They care about winning.
Hawkgrrrl, I’ll add that Trump was being accused of conspiring to falsify business records for the purpose of covering up another crime. And therein lies the felony. What was the other alleged crime Trump and Cohen were trying to cover up? The crime of promoting and/or preventing election. According to New York state law, the prosecution did not have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump was guilty of the actual crime he was trying to cover up. Only that he was conspiring to falsify business records to cover up the crime. Had Trump paid Stormy Daniels his own money to buy her silence, it would have not been a crime. Had Trump had Stormy Daniels sign an NDA, it would not have been a crime. Had Trump encouraged David Pecker to buy and kill Stormy Daniels’ story, it would not have been a crime (I don’t think). But no, Trump told Michael Cohen to pay off Stormy Daniels to buy her silence. He then reimbursed Cohen (and then some) while president all the while labeling these legal expenses. Except that these weren’t legal expenses and they obviously weren’t. Cohen pled guilty in response to this crime and served 3 years in prison for the very crimes that Trump was just found guilty of. And Cohen testified against Trump laying out how was involved in committing crimes with Trump.
Carlo Gambino was a mob boss who was clearly involved in all sorts of crime, including murder. Only a unique set of social dynamics and routine cleverness by Gambino in maintaining plausible deniability kept prosecutors from being able to nail him down. So how did they eventually get him? Tax evasion. He was good at covering his tracks on the bigger stuff. But missed the smaller stuff. And such it is with Trump. A criminal, no doubt, throughout probably all of his professional life. He launched himself into stardom by pretending to be John Barron on the phone with Forbes magazine and falsely claiming to be able to verify that all of the assets that were actually in his father’s name were his, thereby being able to claim to be among the wealthiest people in the US. He recently said that he does not use email because he has known too many people who have gone down because of email records. He has built his whole persona on the idea of being able to cheat to get ahead but to maintain plausible deniability in case something goes down. Dozens and dozens of people around Trump have gone down criminally. All sorts of people in his campaign and political orbit have been found guilty of a number of crimes. A good number of Trump lawyers are facing criminal charges or have been found guilty for involvement in crimes at Trump’s behest. Christina Bobb, Jenna Ellis, Michael Cohen, Sydney Powell, Rudy Giuliani, John Eastman, and the list goes on. Alina Habba, I have no doubt, will soon appear on this list. They all committed these crimes because of Trump and at Trump’s behest. A strange set of social dynamics and Trump’s cleverness long prevented prosecutors from nailing him. But he didn’t cover his tracks well enough on the the New York hush-money case. May Judge Juan Merchan, whose family has been targeted by Trump, deliver the sentence that Trump deserves: years of incarceration.
Worth reading is direct analysis by a career Republican prosecutor:
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/MeDBbC9QCdfHoMed/?
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/Jf4oXsfq685YCTgE/?
The church’s very existence is a no-win scenario at this point. They’ve painted themselves into a corner simply by having prophets lead til they’re dead. Our leaders will grow older and older, staunchly digging their heels into the mud on every issue that matters to the rising generation and the church will soon dip into negative growth. Prophets with no vision or even insight just isn’t a marketable product in this economy.
Yes, Trump is too old to lead. So is Biden. So is RMN. They should all be home baking with their grandchildren and leave governance to younger, more capable and adaptable hands.
Also, A Disciple, Nelson Mandela, really? Did you really compare Trump to Mandela? As if Trump’s adultery is somehow a heroic act of self-sacrifice meant to end oppression? Nope. Try again.
I’m basically a single issue voter now, and that simplifies my life a lot. Which party is helping low and middle income people? And which one isn’t?
I subscribe to a bunch of economic and business news through my job, and the stories are things like:
“With Biden as President, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau is cracking down on junk fees that mostly hurt poor people and racial minorities. Republicans shriek that banks (who are paying you 1% on your money and loaning it out at 8%) cannot possibly stay in business if they can’t whap poor people with $35 overdraft fees multiple times a month.”
“Biden finds a way to forgive another 10 million student loans, bringing the total up to millions upon millions of student loans forgiven. Republicans shriek that it’s your tax dollars paying for those student loans.”
“After SVB Bank collapses, Biden’s administration suggests rules for regional banks to keep them from collapsing. Republicans shriek that imposing rules on banks that clearly can’t manage themselves without collapsing will hobble the entire banking system.”
“Biden tries to fully fund the IRS, because if the IRS has enough staff to regularly audit and collect from rich tax cheats, then there’s so much money in the budget that we don’t have to raise taxes, and all that student loan forgiveness won’t matter. Republicans shriek and make stuff up to try and make it scary that the IRS will audit rich taxpayers.”
“Biden wants to require corporations to report stock buybacks and pay a 1% tax on those buybacks when a company rakes in record profits and then hands billions to people who are already rich rather than lowering prices or giving their employees sick days or a raise. Republicans shriek that this will destroy American businesses.”
“Biden’s FTC is bringing back net neutrality. Republicans weep, wail and gnash their teeth but can’t come up with a single bad thing about restoring net neutrality but they’re still mad about it.”
Yeah, I’m exaggerating, but not by much. Biden is bad at public speaking, but he’s great at helping average people and doing what he can to reign in companies from exploiting employees and the environment.
I really don’t understand people like josh h. If you can’t see the difference between the Republicans and Democrats, you aren’t paying attention. The election isn’t just about Trump or Biden as individuals, it’s about the entire executive branch being led by either a Republican or a Democrat, with all those ripple effects.
I quit Church in 2019. I didn’t hear Trump come up much, but then again, I was in Primary, and leaving sac mtg after I took the sacrament. You avoid a lot of stuff if you never hear sacrament meeting talks.
I can’t be a single issue voter, Janey. As good as helping low and middle income people is, and is very good, uncontrolled giving and open borders will ultimately lead to an empty treasury and to mountains of debt, with more tax dollars servicing the debt than doing something more productive. No, I can’t vote a single issue, even a broad issue like helping the poor. I think that we can help poor and middle income people while also protecting the border, and while not transferring student loan debts onto the backs of taxpayers (some of whom, like, paid both my and wife’s student loans, and we had to forego a lot of pleasantries and some necessities to pay our debts). I don’t want to vote Trump/???, but I almost cannot vote Biden/Harris, because he is clearly in his dotage and won’t make 4 more years, and she… well, let’s just say that I’m not ready to vote for her. Maybe bad on me, but her gender or race has nothing to do with my decision. I could, however, vote for Biden-Manchin in a heartbeat. Not Biden-Newsome, because the latter has almost destroyed California. But with a vice presidential candidate such as Senator Joe Manchin (D-WV), former Governor John Bell Edwards (D-LA), or congressman Dean Phillips (D-MN), I think a lot of people could abandon Trump quickly. I would. Candidly, for a lot of people think Biden clearly in his dotage and obviously in decline, and Democrats don’t help their cause by arguing that he is vigorous and strong. If the Democrats win, the VP candidate will be president, probably sooner rather than later. Many conservatives would abandon Trump to vote for the Democratic candidate if there were a better vice presidential candidate. I hope that the Democrats will give Ms Harris an ambassadorship to wherever she’d like to go, or give her a good teaching job at a university, and will put someone else on the ticket, still Democratic but a little more middle-of-the-road and someone who inspires more confidence.
Georgis, I understand. I’m best equipped to understand the economic issues, so that’s what I focus on. I have not done the deep dive into immigration policy that I feel would be necessary to really have an informed opinion about the border. I did read all about it when Biden was working hard on bipartisan legislation to address the border issues, and was giving the Republicans a lot of what they were asking for, and then Trump sank the whole deal by pulling the strings of Republicans in Congress. It’s too bad Trump wasn’t willing to let a bipartisan group make significant progress on the border.
I find it odd that people think Biden is in his dotage, and don’t acknowledge that Trump has completely lost touch with reality.
And again, the election isn’t about two (or four) individuals having a popularity contest. It’s about choosing which political party will steer the Executive Branch of the federal government.
Janey, I do think that Biden is in his dotage, and seriously so, but I also think that Trump has lost touch with reality. The Republicans deserve to lose for making abortion a pass/fail litmus test (this isn’t a winning issue for them) and for being obstructionists in Congress and not working seriously on legislation, while wasting time on impeachments and hearings that are leading nowhere. They aren’t proving themselves able to govern–they controlled the house last year and didn’t produce a budget. I am not keen on the AOC types in the Democratic party, and they seem to be in the ascendant. I may not vote for president, for the first time since I turned 18. While I weigh a lot of issues, public debt is important to me, and neither party has any bragging rights there.
On Biden’s age. He accomplished a tremendous amount while in office. What exactly has his age kept him from doing? Biden’s latest STOU speech received praise, even from critics who were blown away at how well he managed it. Trump is just a few years younger. And yet, I think Trump’s acuity is less than Biden’s by far. He has confused Biden with Obama and Nikki Haley with Nancy Pelosi on stage. Leading psychologist at Cornell University Harry Segal has observed that Trump is showing signs of being in the early stages of dementia.
Still I agree that I would prefer a younger president. But we sort of had a national discussion on this throughout the last year during the party primaries and voters overwhelmingly chose the oldest candidates. That says to me that the general population is really not terribly concerned about age. They simply use it as a cudgel against the other party. Incumbency, experience, and name-recognition simply seem more important to primary voters than old age.
Biden keeps trying to do something about the boarder, and *Republicans* block it because Trump wants to keep it as a campaign issue—Not fix the problem. They do not want to fix the boarder problem. They just want voters to stay mad about it and say how it is the Democrats who want an open boarder. Biden finally had to sign an executive order. So, bullsh*t on the Republican will do something about the boarder besides put children in cages and separate them from the ir parents. That was what they did before and it is what they will do again. Make a big show out of building a wall that won’t stop anyone, and lock small children up in small cages.
As far as who is the most senile, if you listen to Trump, he sounds like a babbling fool. He doesn’t make sense, so Fox News edits his speak and makes it sound less like a senile old fool.
and the other choice besides Biden in a convicted felon. Who has been a con man all along. Really, you want a rapist (yes he was convicted of what amounts to rape) and a guy convicted of paying a hooker to keep silent so he can get elected. You really want a felon and rapist for president? He has SAID he wants to be dictator and he has said he will imprison political opponents. He is threatening violence from his followers if he gets sentenced to prison for his crimes. It was not Biden who has no power over courts in New York who was behind that trial. New York State found a crime and selected a jury and that jury convicted him.
Now I am going back to being so sick of hearing people defend a convicted felon and avoid this type of conversation. I am a one issue voter this year and it is keep a dictator out of out White House.
While I wholeheartedly endorse Janey’s issue, for this election I am a one issue voter like Anna — vote to keep a blatant, utterly self-absorbed criminal from that office. Seriously, should I have to spell it out again? There are so many more things to discuss. The orange blight should quit sucking all the oxygen out of our discourse and giving life to the worst elements of the GOP. But it looks like he’s gonna have to be put away, especially at the ballot box.
I don’t like Biden as the choice, but his administration has done some much-needed work that was neglected or deliberately trashed by his predecessor. I don’t care who his VP is, we have to keep that criminal Trump out of office.
Regarding Janey’s issue, protecting middle/working class and their families, including young adults struggling to get a steady start in life, I believe this is the main domestic responsibility of government in the current state of affairs. I think it’s critical not only for compassionate reasons, but I look upon the vast pool of working people as our economic engine, the group paying the highest margin of taxes, and it’s scary to see that in peril, stripped of so much that they need to build their economic lives. We have the capacity to fund government support of those needs, we just lack the will to do it. It would be best done as a bipartisan measure, but for the crackpots controlling the Rs. And please don’t use student loan forgiveness as a talking point. A little investigation shows that the terms of those loans are terrible, a shameful thing with which to bait students. If the original amount is paid, the loan-shark interest can be forgiven without breaking the treasury.
I have watched the neglect and failure of immigration policy for 40 years, up close in my border state. I personally know undocumented residents, they’re among the most dedicated workers in our economy, not criminals but rather the targets of criminals, and we should make it possible for them to be legally documented. We should also give careful attention to who gets citizenship and voting rights. This is another area where bipartisan effort is critical; we need everyone at that table, but first we need a functioning bipartisan government.
Unfortunately, I realize this is quite a pipe dream given our current elephant and donkey show.
Thanks for the comments and wide-ranging discussion, everyone.
I was busy yesterday and could not really follow comments or make any replies. There are just too many comments and issues to try and do so now. I think everyone is happy just to have a chance to vent on the whole political mess, so you’re all welcome.
Just to clarify, I though this post would be helpful for non-US readers, who are no doubt curious and confused about recent events. You would think a felony conviction would preclude a candidate from running for office? Nope. You would think voters and the party would turn away from a candidate with a felony conviction? Nope. So details on the status of the case and where it will go in coming months was, I thought, helpful to some of our readers.
The Church angle is also relevant, and thanks for the observations and comments. Honestly, I have not seen an issue affect the Church like this in four decades — one that is capable of, and in most cases is, driving divisions and frustration and even anger at the local level, in our wards and stakes. And, apart from the political neutrality statement and a plea here and there for civility, the leadership is basically doing little or nothing about it. To adopt the recent metaphor, the good ship Zion is taking on water and listing badly to starboard (that’s leaning to the right, certainly accurate) and the leadership is doing almost nothing about it. That is a story that ought to be getting more attention than it is.
Maybe I will revisit this topic (how politics is afflicting the Church) in a couple of months, after the conventions when the two major party candidates are formally nominated.
Georgis wrote: “As good as helping low and middle income people is, and is very good, uncontrolled giving and open borders will ultimately lead to an empty treasury and to mountains of debt, with more tax dollars servicing the debt than doing something more productive.” Can you provide a source from a democrat that supports uncontrolled giving? Also given Biden’s recent order at the border, can you also provide support that Democrats want an open border? I’m a registered Democrat and I want neither of these things.
Georgis wrote: “Not Biden-Newsome, because the latter has almost destroyed California.” Please define destroyed. Last I checked, CA is still the world’s fifth largest economy.
It might be helpful for you to get introduced to some registered Democrats. You may be surprised at what most of them actually want. Protip: It may not be what some news channels tell you we want.
I, for one, am looking forward to the upcoming debates, particularly the one in a couple weeks. There will be no audience for either candidate to play to, just the two of them and the moderators. Let’s judge afterward which one has the best grasp on reality and which one offers the best vision for the USA (and the world, for that matter) as it moves into the years ahead. At this point all the grumbling and whining about the candidates for president and vice president don’t really matter. This is the existential moment we’re in, so unless one of them drops dead tomorrow (and I’m not wishing for that, just so you know), this is the choice we’re faced with.
Thanks for the comment, Rich.
I didn’t mention the upcoming debate at all in my post, and it might be a defining moment for the campaigns. I have to think that Mr. Trump in particular will behave differently with no audience. In fact, he might be somewhat more subdued in his comments and remarks. Having no audience may actually help Trump have a better focused and more restrained performance, in contrast to the unhinged interviews and speeches he has given since the conviction came down.
“Many conservatives would abandon Trump to vote for the Democratic candidate if there were a better vice presidential candidate”
I’m not sure that the VP pick matters too much. At least according to studies I’ve seen. I don’t hear Democrats saying that Biden’s in great health, but he’s good enough. I think he’ll hold on for four more years. I’m not exactly sure who would be good to replace Harris. Republicans would criticize any pick. Manchin would be a lackluster pick, and he’s old too, 76. I think Biden is best just staying the course and keeping Harris on the ticket. The key to winning, after all, isn’t too much about flipping voters on the other side. It’s about energizing people on your side to show up and vote. Biden picked Harris because she has run for president before and already has been subject to attacks by Republicans (so no likely new surprises in wait). Additionally she is black, female, and had been a prosecutor. This, he thought, would help turn out the crucial black and female votes in swing states and her prosecutorial background would make it seem like she wasn’t too much on the side of the race protesters in 2020, which were a burden on the Democrats (the protests kept Democrats from a much larger victory in 2020, serving to energize Republicans more). I think she’s fairly solid moving forward and again could help bring out the black vote. Furthermore Biden is trying to appear as the candidate of unity and stability. Ousting Harris could risk disruptions in the Democratic Party that they simply can’t afford to have right now. I think the primary votes for Biden were implicit votes for Harris as well. And Biden, again, really faced no competition in the Democratic primaries.
I remember the first time I went to a state democratic convention. I was shocked/amazed/dumbstruck that they started the meeting with a prayer and the pledge. I mean as a TBM at the time, I thought Democrats were socialists bent on destroying America. Then I started to look at their platform and their candidates and listening to what they said. They actually tied many of the things they advocated for to the Constitution and particularly to the Bill of Rights. While the promise of creating a Bill of Rights was a huge thing in getting our Constitution passed, it was hard to pass that first Congressional Session and once it did pass, there were 10 amendments instead of the 16 or so that had been proposed. Also once it passed it was basically forgotten. In the last 100 or so years though people have actually asked important questions like if they apply to ALL people and thus began a long fight for “rights” for the “other” people in our country. Black, brown, LGBTQ, and even women all realized they didn’t have an equal share of the pie and pushed for reform in the courts and in Congress. Doing that has resulted in a lot of push back which seems to have culminated in the MAGA movement throwing doubt on the courts, the press, our election process, and clouding/distorting our views of minorities, immigrants, teachers, etc.
So while I still may be registered as a Republican because in Utah that’s really the only way you can participate in the electoral process and primaries. I know that the real defenders of the Constitution and Bill of Rights are probably going to be Democrats. The reason I say that is because everytime the Republican speak they seem to be excluding people and they seem to get really mad because democrats work to include people which I interpret being directly related to rights.
Finally a comment about VP Harris. She represents to the Republican about everything they hate, a child of an immigrant, raised mostly in a single parent home, who is both black and Asian who is smart and advocates for minorities. Do any study about her starting with Wikipedia and then her book and other books about her and you’ll see she’s the perfect person to be VP and the fact that Republicans hate her so much (when have they ever run against both the president and VP) makes her even better to me.
We need to look at this election as not about personality or age but about the moral issues each side represents and fights for. The Republicans are in a massive slander and distortion campaign using all the trigger words that set people off which they can’t define themselves. Words like Socialist or liberal let alone woke. They are spending a lot of time stirring fear and anger to confuse people so they won’t think about any real or substantive issues where Republicans are doing everything they can to either take away rights or weaken some of the very foundation of our society like elections, schools, or the media. (Yes, the media helps with this as well because they are bought and paid for by huge corporations which have both motive and means to compel employees to bend to their will, ie Fox or Sinclair). When we look at the growing income gap, the loss of cities with completing newspapers, the consolidation of media outlets, the the push to stifel social media because it’s the last free speech frontier we can’t really say it’s because of both parties equally. It’s because one party (R) has figured out a way to dominate the other party (D) even when they are in the minority. All politicians look over their shoulder to see what’s coming after them but Rs now have MAGA marching orders and in the period of 8 years have lost any ability to push back. One thing about the Rs, they have built quite a machine that seems to be working with one mind and it’s formidable. They want to Make America Great Again by taking us back to some mythical time where one group was in control and everyone else knew their place. I’d rather vote for an America where ALL people have the promise of what our Constitution and Bill of Rights spells out for “We the People…..”
“Let’s judge afterward which one has the best grasp on reality” Aren’t there mountains of evidence already? One or more irrelevant debates are hardly going to provide more information to answer that question than we have already had for many years.
interesting that this post got more attention from more conservative members.
Wonder if the link was featured on another blog or forum or something.
No exodus of members here in blue/purple Colorado. Folks are pretty evenly split Demoratic, Independent, and Republicans in this area, and people aren’t afraid to show their colors. Leadership runs the full spectrum, and no one appears to feel ostracized for their political leanings.
Nine witnesses in the criminal cases against former President Donald Trump have received significant financial benefits, including large raises from his campaign, severance packages, new jobs, and a grant of shares and cash from Trump’s media company”
ppl
ProPublica, published 6/3/2024
ProPublica conducted the investigation that found the many sizable, unreported gifts that SCOTUS Judge Clarence Thomas accepted from wealthy conservative donors. And has since reported similar findings on additional judges (and their spouses).
For the 2020 election, Biden campaigned on undoing the the Trump administration’s inhumane border policies. And then immediately after winning he sends Kamala Harris to Guatemala to say to migrants “do not come here”.
then the Biden administration leaves Trump’s border policies largely intact. The kids are still in the cages.
in February this year, house democrats offered an even more draconian immigration and border policies in an attempt to secure Republican support for more weapons to Ukraine and Israel
Just this week, Biden’s recent executive order shutting down the border to asylum seekers.
This is all a massive tack to the right on the democrats’ part. My guess is that they’re trying to pick up republican voters who are tired of Trump.
Which I guess is the only thing the Biden administration feel like they can actually do in the face of hemorrhaging young voters due to Biden’s support and enablement of Israel’s ethnic cleansing in Gaza.
Meanwhile, republicans are stuck with Trump, who is now just as senile as Biden, and a convicted felon to boot. The Republicans also overplayed their hand with the overturning of Roe v. Wade which is juicing support for democrats in house and senate races. However it’s unclear what, if anything the democrats can do about it except fundraise.
To me this seems like a race to the bottom for both partie, it’s almost like they’re trying to be as unpopular and evil as possible.
I predict that voter turnout will be pretty low this election, and honestly, I don’t blame anyone for staying home if your options are convicted felon Trump and genocide Joe.
As far as the results go, seems close to a coin flip, but I would give Biden the edge because I think the elites and suburban home owners (the only voters that matter) are sick of and embarrassed by Trump.
Golden Glue, you seem to speak from a more left position, a position to which I am sympathetic. I frequently listen to leftist media, so I do regularly hear rankling over Biden’s seemingly similar border policies and inaction over Gaza. To that I say, Trump is so much worse on the border and Gaza, and on every other issue. The left and left-leaning in swing states who sit out this election are in effect voting for Trump. Listen to other leftists such as David Pakman and AOC. They routinely warn the left the danger of not voting.
Bear in mind that Biden set a program to include more Latin American countries and Haiti in a program where people can apply for asylum from their home countries. Applicants can come to the US if they have a host family. This is aimed to alleviate the border patrol and asylum processors at the border. It is aimed to alleviate the pressure on makeshift shelters and would allow people in the US if they have a place to stay and people to stay with. Also bear in mind that Trump tried to not only stop undocumented people from crossing the border, but the documented as well. The US is a welcoming place for migrants, it is the number one place in the world where people want to migrate to. Over the past few decades it has absorbed millions and millions of migrants from throughout the entire world. But the migrants simply cannot come all at once. There has to be a gradual absorption of them. Biden can’t have an open-border policy as you seem to be angling at. That would not only be political suicide, it simply is not practicable in the least. Logistics simply don’t allow for such a thing.
On Gaza, the issue is made all the more complex because the radical jihadist group Hamas is in the mix. How exactly is Israel supposed to negotiate with Hamas, who, unlike the Palestinian Authority, has never even recognized Israel as a legitimate entity and has promised additional Oct. 7-like attacks? Gaza is being flattened, women and children are being killed, I have no doubt that Israel is guilty of a large number of war crimes there. But no viable politician in the US has the flexibility to fully punish Israel (Democrats desperately need the pro-Israel vote in the US). Plus, if Israel is noticeably weakened due to a sharp drop in US support, it is an invitation for a large number of hostile actors from throughout the Middle East and Muslim World to launch an invasion. Hamas will then regroup and continue to launch Oct. 7-like attacks. I’m pro-Palestinian myself. But I am saddened by how many pro-Palestinians 1) fail to recognize Israel, 2) do not appreciate the threat of Hamas and other radical jihadist groups to Israel, 3) do not support a two-state solution (the only viable solution for Israel and Palestine), 4) are reluctant to condemn and blame Hamas and radical Islam for the existence of Hamas, and 5) in some cases endorse violence against Jews and Israel. In the end a large international intervention, which includes members of the Muslim World such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia, is needed in Israel with a big number of peacekeeping forces to ensure a peaceful transition to some form of a two-state solution and to keep land disputes from spinning out of control and to keep Hamas from retaking power. Biden could no doubt do more to pressure Israel, but he is not actionless by any means. Trump tried to ban Muslims from entering the US. I have no doubt that he will give Israel carte blanche to wage an even more lethal assault against Palestinians. He will doubtlessly empower the Israeli far right to the furthest extent possible.
Lastly, there are so many more issues that are of import beyond immigration and Gaza. Trump will destroy everything that not only the Democrats have been trying to achieve, but the left as well. He will reverse progress drastically on every front. Biden has come around on many issues that the left has been demanding. He can be negotiated with. Trump cannot. So vote Biden. It’s the only way forward.
Brad D: Well said!
I just heard on NPR a quote from Pres. Reagan talking about D-Day saying, “We are never more than one generation from losing Democracy.”
How true that is. What’s funny is that Republicans are saying that voting for Biden will cause us to lose our Democracy. I don’t know why they say that when they also say we are a republic not a democracy. The fact is that over the past generation of Republicans we’ve seen them attack voting rights, public schools, the teaching of history, banning books, closing off immigration, and bringing back a new Jim Crow. We’ve also watched them increase the debt by huge tax cuts to the very richest essentially making it so the average person pays a larger percentage of their income in taxes than they do. We’ve watched a Republican “Business” mentality take service out of the post office and allow for corporations to not only be recognized as people but allowed them to grow uninhibited and cut off any form of competition or regulation to protect the people. The court has been stacked taking away Civil Rights and Human Rights that have only recently been acknowledged. I could go on and on but suffice it to say that democracy is really on the line. Republicans say it so they can tie into their existing campaign if promoting fear, misinformation, and stroking pre existing prejudice. Democrats say it though because they understand the battles fought over the past 80 years are at risk not from the majority of people but from a well positioned and wealthy political machine.
So this election is critical. I fear that most people (I should say LDS since we are in this forum), are ill informed. They are motivated by fear but they couldn’t articulate what socialism really is or how it would hurt us nor do they have an understanding of the Constitution and what “We the People….” really means for EVERYONE in our country. But I know they are emotionally motivated to charge forward to smash the enemies of MAGA.
It’s important this election cycle to stand up, defend democracy, show the real issues seeking to destroy democracy, and to tie it to the Gospel which is for ALL people. It doesn’t matter is the two candidates are the bottom of the barral, one is still markedly better than the other. We need to make sure there is an election in 2028 by voting for Biden this year.
Great summaries, Brad D and Instereo!
Republicans have told us their plans if they win the election: Project 2025 is frightening. They will replace thousands of government staff with Trump loyalists. They will further erode the social safety net (Trump has floated the idea of cutting Social Security). Many not only want a federal abortion ban, but to prohibit contraception.
I guess nothing says “small government” to them like government doing your family planning.
I simply don’t have the mental energy anymore to entertain any pro-Trump or whataboutism or both side -ism arguments about the election. Whatever you think about Biden – and he’s actually accomplished a lot during his presidency – the alternative is an unhinged existential threat. I’m not being hyperbolic. It’s all there. He’s been showing us and telling us. And yes, Biden is old and has lost a step or two. But he’s still mentally there. Go watch his D-Day commemoration speech. Not the viral sitting down mishap moment. The actual speech. Then compare that to anything Trump has said in the past few days. The man can’t put together a single coherent thought. Peel away the media horse race narrative filter and the choice is obvious.
As far as the Church goes, they hitched their wagon to the Christian Right decades ago and don’t appear to have any intention of letting go. You would think with the constitution actually “hanging by a thread,” now might be a good time to break their political neutrality policy and actually take a stand against Trump. But no, apparently gay couples getting married is a bigger threat to the country than an actual insurrection against the government.
As a side note. I don’t think there will be a debate. I’m predicting Trump will use the gag order to weasel his way out of it.
not much about abortions on this thread. For 30 years the number of abortions in America has been reducing. Trump turned this around with a 8% increase, about 50,000. Obama reduced it by 25% By sex education, and affordable birth control. Empowering women to choose to become pregnant or not.
Trump also increased the range of the global gag rule, which resulted in 2.2 million abortions, 2.1 unsafe resulting in 23 000 maternal deaths. Also 90,000 HIV Deaths mostly children who can not be tested or treated, because those who would do that have been defunded by Trump.
So at least 2,250000 extra abortions under Trump. And at least 23,000 maternal deaths
Bill Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar. Very intelligent fellow with some moral problems. Trump isn’t an intelligent fellow and his moral problems make him the walking epitome of every sin. I’d choose the intelligent guy.
Ironically (and paradoxically) it’s the overwhelming (sometimes crazed) hatred of Trump – by so many – which will probably get him elected. Biden is clearly consumed with dementia and is not capable of functioning in his duties as President – let alone walking across a stage – and the country is headed for financial collapse. The virulent hatred for Trump will simply solidify his base….and some will vote for ANYTHING other than a demented shadow presidency.
I recommend watching President Biden deliver the State of the Union address earlier this year.
Even more recently, look up coverage of him and the First Lady meeting with WWII veterans on D-day.
If you accept what right wing media present as fact, you’re acting as a tool for the party that makes policy that benefits the wealthy at a real cost to people who work for a living.
Reinterpreting grizzerbear55’s comment. The left and their dogged insistence on holding Trump to account for lies and crimes is to blame for the rise of Trump and Trumpism. So whatever Trump has done that is good, that’s because Trump is good. Whatever Trump and his supporters have done that is bad, well that’s because the left hates him so much. He also hopes there is a financial collapse so that it will reflect negatively on Biden and Trump will be enabled more.
Republicans lost big in 2018 and by a landslide because of Trump. In 2020 Trump lost the presidency because of his antics. And usually incumbents win. Republicans lost the Senate because of Trump. In 2022, the predicted red wave turned out to be but a trickle and Democrats kept the Senate while Republicans barely took the House, and now are on the brink of losing the House because of Republicans retiring early out of frustration with the dysfunction of the Trumpist caucus. In many Republican primaries, about 20% of Republican voters have been voting for Nikki Haley, even after she suspended her campaign and even when it is clear that Trump is going to be the nominee, out of clear spite for Trump. And now early polling shows a slight decline in Trump support after his conviction. So 1) I don’t understand how leftist hatred of Trump is helping him gain popularity and 2) I don’t understand why we didn’t get to hate Trump, the man is truly revolting.
It isn’t as if Republicans haven’t hated Democratic leaders. Don’t tell me that Republicans wouldn’t have tried to lock up Hillary Clinton or Obama if they could. Republicans have been vilifying Hillary relentlessly since the 90s. They hate her so much that they’ve invented conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory to try to defame her. They have to invent conspiracy theories and grossly exaggerate wrongdoing, such as Benghazi and emails, because they don’t really have anything on her. With the left, the hatred against Trump started because of a long history of racist and extreme comments, and his clear violations of the Constitution and the law. The evidence against him is overwhelming. Trumpism is unsustainable, and I think you write the reactionary and trollish way you do because you know that’s true and eventually the forces of anti-Trumpism are going to overwhelm the Trumpists, purge them from power, and imprison the many of them who’ve committed crimes. It’s already starting. The revulsion to Trump and Trumpism is actually only just beginning.
Thanks for the comments, everyone.
I’m going to close comments now. Perhaps I will revisit this topic after the debates or after the major party conventions.