Mormons and multiple lives (reincarnation) is back in the news with Chad Daybell on trial for killing his wife and future wife’s children. It has come out in the trial that Chad believed that he was married to Lori Vallow in a previous life. While modern Mormons may think that is just crazy, there is just enough ambiguity in our history to let those like Daybell believe in these multiple lives.
FAIR apologist have said that “reincarnation is not a Church doctrine, it violates the scriptures, and teaching it has been grounds for excommunication”. But then there is another LDS website that shows all the evidence (scriptural and otherwise) on why “multiple mortalities” is a valid belief in LDS theology. You can read for yourself here.
Last week Anna commented on my post about things we don’t believe but are in the scriptures by bringing up John 9:2 where the disciples are asking “Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?” Since we was born blind, the implication is that he must have lived a life before he was born to comment a sin, and caused him to be born blind in this life. Anna points out that Jesus doesn’t dispute that he might have sinned in a previous life, just he was born blind so they could learn compassion.
But what about those young kids, 2-6 years old, that tell about their past lives? One of the most famous was Ryan Hammond, a four year old boy who told his parents that he used to live in Hollywood. We know a lot about this one because he was featured on the A&E series called “The Unexplained” in 2011. Ryan found a photo of Hollywood from the 1930’s and then pointed to a man and said “Thats me!” His name was Marty Martyn. For the series Ryan met with a daughter of Marty Martyn. They we able to confirm many of Ryan’s facts about Marty’s life, and even some that the daughter did not know, but where proven to be true. The daughter didn’t know that her father had driven a green car, or that he had a younger sister, but it turned out both claims were accurate. Marty Martyn’s death certificate cited his age as 59, but Ryan insisted he had died at 61; They later found census records and marriage listings that confirmed this.
A more recent one involves a little girl named Aija. You can read about her in this Washington Post article. At the age of 2 she told he parents about her friend named Nina. She told them that Nina liked to dance and play the piano. When she spoke of Nina in the first person, her voice and vocabulary would change. Aija sometimes told them that Nina was afraid of bad guys coming to get her, or of not having enough food to eat. One day her mom was using a food processor, and Aijo screamed at the noise, saying “Get that tank out of here”. Her mom had no idea where she learned about tanks.
The part that send chills down my spine was when I read the below from the linked article.
It all seemed more curious than concerning — until one afternoon in the early spring of 2021, when Marie came to believe that there was something more to Nina. That day, Marie recalls, she and Aija were playing together in their living room, enacting little scenes with toy figurines.
Then Aija suddenly turned to her mother and said, “Nina has numbers on her arm, and they make her sad.”
Marie’s mind raced.“What did you say?” she asked her daughter, willing her voice to remain calm.
“Nina has numbers on her arm, and they make her sad,” Aija said again, pointing to the inside of her forearm. Then she added: “Nina misses her family. Nina was taken away from her family.”
It wasn’t just the words that sent a jolt of adrenaline through Marie’s body, or the way her child said them — clear and certain, with the letter R pronounced correctly, which Aija usually couldn’t manage — but there was also something about Aija’s expression in that moment.
Que the Twilight Zone music here.
Most of these kids completely forget about these past lives by age six. In fact Ryan, now a Junior in College, has no memory of Marty. Aija is now 5 and in pre-school, and while she used to talk about Nina daily, it has been months since she has spoke of her.
What are your thoughts about reincarnation, past lives, or multiple mortal probations?
What do you think about Ryan and Aija’s stories?
Wheat & Tares 
A third of heaven was cast out with Lucifer so I imagine they are all down here playing tricks to deceive people. They have to do something to fill their time, right?
Count me as someone who is open to the idea of multiple probations. D&C 76:103-104 says the telestial kingdom is a place where there are “liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. These are they who suffer the wrath of God on Earth”.
That makes me look around and ask, “Wait a minute… Am I in the bad place?”
I mean, I don’t actually know one way or the other. But I wouldn’t be surprised if those who go to the telestial kingdom just come back to earth– over and over, until they have learned all the lessons they need from this earthly experience, and then are ready to move on to the Terrestrial or Celestial Kingdoms (whatever those terms mean).
Count me as someone who is open to the idea of multiple probations. D&C 76:103-104 says the telestial kingdom is a place where there are “liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. These are they who suffer the wrath of God on Earth”.
That makes me look around and ask, “Wait a minute… Am I in the bad place?”
I mean, I don’t actually know one way or the other. But I wouldn’t be surprised if those who go to the telestial kingdom just come back to earth– over and over, until they have learned all the lessons they need from this earthly experience, and then are ready to move on to the Terrestrial or Celestial Kingdoms (whatever those terms mean).
I read that Washington Post article a couple of weeks ago, and ended up downloading a book that was referenced in it called “Old Souls” by Tom Shroder. The book is by a journalist who traveled with and researched a professor, Dr. Ian Stevenson, who has been researching past life experiences for decades. I haven’t finished the book yet, but am about 75% through. It is a fascinating subject to me. Consistent with what Bishop Bill shared, most past life memories are from young children, around 2 – 5 years old, and the memories fade after that. If you wanted to use LDS terms, it would be when we consider the “veil” to be thin.
Just like the church teaches of our future life – degrees of glory, eternal families (if you’ve paid your dues and followed their rules), we have no “proof” of any of that. There is nothing in the scriptures we have and no tangible proof that we even exist after we die. We have the words of men (literally just men, no women), yet it is a widely held belief by people of many religions that we continue to exist after this earthly life. What that post-mortal existence consists of is one of the great mysteries. The LDS church is unique in that it professes we existed before mortality, so logically you would think they’re open to previous lives, yet the official position is no. Who knows what some of the Q15 think privately.
The church proclaims that the purpose of life is to get a body and learn/grow/”prove yourself”. When an individual dies as an infant from SIDS, or a young child dies from disease/abuse/accidental death – just how much did they grow? That was their shot? We used to be taught that individuals who were “valiant” in the pre-existence had favorable earthly conditions (born into the church, born into the USA, and by extension deceased young children were so righteous before that they just needed to check the “get a physical body” box.) We also used to be taught that the less valiant were born black or into unfavorable conditions. This whole line of teaching has been disavowed (which I heartily am grateful for), despite earlier prophets plainly declaring it. Of course, it was never disavowed over the pulpit or publicly, so it continues to fester in the population. This whole earth, with the complex resources that allow life to exist and thrive was created so some souls could spend 3 days here and be done? Just as there is no tangible proof of life after death (and I do believe we continue to exist, but have no idea what that actually consists of), I also believe that we could have had previous lives. I also have no proof, but am completely comfortable with the idea. Why do we think we know everything, when in reality we know little? Why can’t we have multiple experiences here on earth? Is our entire eternal existence dependent on one shot and done? If you made a mess of your one shot, too bad!?
A huge part of Dr. Stevenson’s research is interviewing young children who share these past lives as well as their families – searching for cross contamination, influence, and inconsistencies with their stories. If enough information is available, he researches the previous life and their families. It’s fascinating and if it interests you, the book is pretty cheap on Amazon. I am completely open to past lives (if you hadn’t figured that out yet) – maybe it’s even part of our eternal progression, since we’re told having a body is so important. The real truth is we know nothing other than our physical reality – nothing about our pre-life and nothing about our post-mortal life. We have ideas and teachings of men, but no proof. Maybe if we open our minds, we could be open to other ideas. Maybe they’re incorrect, but maybe our existence is larger than we realize. I guess one day we’ll all find out for ourselves, but it does seem to be an individual journey.
I don’t love the idea of MMPs. But when I think that maybe a schmoe like me could be granted some extra time to get my act together–then I’m not altogether against it. But with that idea in mind I start to wonder about the efficacy of the atonement. On the one hand, maybe the atonement allows for as many opportunities as is necessary for me to stop resisting God’s love and turn to him. But on the other hand, I’d like to think that God’s grace is powerful enough to bring me along without having to go through any more mortal rigmarole than is absolutely necessary.
When the scriptures speak of the final judgment there is always a sense that the outcome will be uneven–though just. And so, if the purpose of MMPs is to allow us enough opportunity to get our act together then it can only be viewed (IMO) as the Lord allowing us all the opportunity he can before he must wrap up the scene. That’s one of the reasons why, though I don’t favor MMPs, I’m very open to the idea of progress afterwards; more endowments of knowledge and power and so forth. There’s only so much we can do as mortal beings. We really need to get on with our post mortal existence in order to grow into our potential.
One possible reason LDS leadership does not include reincarnation as doctrine it would take away their power structure. If you have a chance at another life, you could “live up” this one and then “do better in the next”. Hinduism/Buddhism/Jainism buffer this with Karma and consequences; but they do not have a central leadership structure. I suspect people in those religions obey due to family pressure and internal “fear”; but not with the added hierarchal demands every week. I just attended my local Hindu temple for a worship service. There was lots of teaching of “be better and do better”, but not the shame and obedience noted in LDS services.
Having a hope of another life gives this current life a purpose and creates possible justice when this life is not fair. However, the unique LDS teachings of an afterlife/pre-life are soiled. How can we believe what they teach, when history shows that everything they taught from Joseph Smith, BY… Kimball, Benson, etc., is redacted, changed and shown in retrospective, not true. I think JS made up his unique spin of the afterlife doctrine, just like everything else found in a deep dive and not listening to the dominant narrative.
Let’s hope for a reincarnation in a better and higher form of life. We all deserve that for dealing with the silliness with games of this life and culture.
I will admit to being insane here, but I remember a past life. No details anymore, except where I lived and which indigenous tribe, but the knowledge is still there.
But that is why the idea of reincarnation interests me.
There is some historical record that during Brigham Young’s time, it was quite a common belief among top church leaders, and that Brigham Young believed it. But Brigham believed a lot of crazy stuff, so I put zero stock in him as evidence that the idea is true.
The idea however, is common in many different religions world wide, and I do put some stock in things that are world wide beliefs. It is like every culture has some legion about a great flood, or every culture having a belief in dragons. Well, is it so hard to understand that people found dinosaur bones and the huge bones kinda freaked them out. So, they found evidence of huge reptile like animals, and so they explained that evidence as best they could and concluded there were dragons. So, every culture all through human history have had us crazy people who remember being somebody else. So, they explain us crazy people the best way they can and conclude that reincarnation happens.
Now, what is really going on is a different matter. There has been at least one case where it was sort of proven that the child’s “memories” were actually stories told to him by an old nanny. But most cases there is really no good explanation for why the child knows facts from somebody else’s life.
And what is human consciousness anyway? Is it possible that human consciousness is more than our brain running like a computer? Even scientists are starting to say some weird things about consciousness. How there is one consciousness through out the whole universe, and even the earth itself has consciousness. While I really don’t understand what the the scientists are talking about, but alright, I believe them. I believe the scientists saying these crazy things because I already believed like Joseph Smith taught, that our earth has a soul. That might be the only thing that I believe that he taught.
The older I get (71 years and counting) the more I believe in reincarnation. This earth is a vast, beautiful, and exciting place, and we get just a speck of time on it? I’ve always “joked” that I was a horse in a past life, and in my soul I can feel the joy of running through a meadow or climbing through the mountains. I can feel the muscle movement of those activities. Muscle memory? Maybe. I also drew many pictures as a child of a horse in the mountains, despite living in the suburbs. Is a horse’s soul just a one time shot for him and he hopes to be assigned the Kentucky Derby level of heaven, only if he ‘wins’, and then remains a horse for eternity?
The possible reality of reincarnation totally dismantles the one church doctrine of the Plan of Salvation, or the Plan of Happiness, (however it’s being branded these days), that hasn’t been altered, or quietly changed. It actually is a concept that makes more sense to me than not, and I actually look forward to death to see just what it’s all about after all.
I will also admit to being crazy and having memories of a past life. They were clearer in childhood, and now it’s more like a memory that I had the memories, though I still remember who he was and some of what he did, but the details and the sense that they were my memories is all but gone. Every so often, powerful flashes will come back.
I am very ambivalent about my beliefs on a good day, but if one of their spirit children wanted to do it again, why couldn’t all-powerful Heavenly Parents say yes?
I always thought John 9:2 was referring to the premortal existence.
The best possible scientific explanation I’ve seen put forth for reincarnation is the idea that memories can be stored in DNA and resurface at times in subsequent generations; kind of like instinct, but on a higher level. That says nothing of reincarnated individuals who weren’t related. My Dad also once interviewed a man who researched a woman who had gotten a heart transplant, only to take up smoking and buy a Harley shortly after. She later found out her donor was a biker. It kind of makes me wonder if these reincarnated individuals who weren’t related have a blood transfusion or organ donation somewhere up the line that links them. Of course, that theory falls apart the further back you go, but bloodlines also grow closer.
In the last twenty years I’ve started accepting the idea that the entire premortal world fell along with Adam and Eve, so that the premortal and postmortal worlds exist on the same plane. It’s possible that before I was born my best friend had long been dead already. With the veil extremely thin and the child mind so fragile and receptive, I think it’s possible a person could just be expressing the thoughts and feelings of a close friend.
The idea that multiple probations would be needed to give everyone the right amount of experience and growth initially makes sense to me, but I do think the Millennium and the time after is meant to level the playing field. All wrongs start to be righted during the Millennium. Everyone starts to experience the same thing on the same level. Children can grow to adulthood after previously being unable to. And even those born during the Millennium eventually experience temptation on a level close to what everyone else in human history has once Satan is loosed again (which some speculate is another thousand years). Before the Earth is changed a final time, I do believe all of humanity can look at their time on Earth with largely the same regard.
The closest thing I’ve seen to reincarnation in early LDS writings is the idea that Sons of Perdition will not stay in Outer Darkness forever. Eventually, their spirits will die similarly to how our bodies do, and their spiritual material will be recycled. I’m not sure if that means multiple parts of their spirit will be used elsewhere, similar to how organic material migrates here on Earth, or if the entire spirit essentially is reset and starts over. I know it’s not official doctrine, but it strikes me as a mercy the Father and Son would offer those who outright reject them.
On a funnier note, my dad once interviewed a believer in reincarnation who stated, in all seriousness, “Alexander the Great was reincarnated as Napoleon Bonaparte, who was reincarnated as Adolf Hitler, who was then reincarnated as my college roommate.”
Margie, interesting that you have more specific memories about who he was and what he did, but have lost the sense of it being you. While for me, the feeling of those memories really being me is still stronger than any sense of who “I” was back then. I don’t even have an idea of gender or any specific memories of what that particular me did in their life, but the identity of it being me is still pretty strong. Almost like I am clinging to it when everything about my new life is trying to stomp it out.
Anyway, I see our earth life not so much as a one time pass/fail test, as I see life as a learning experience. So, God asks us, “what would you like to learn?” And I say that I would like to experience poverty and an abusive childhood, because I want a challenge. Well, that was how I went through college, always looking for the hardest classes because I learned the most from a challenge, then after signing up for 4 really tough classes and max credit hours, I would hate myself for doing it *again* as I struggled with really hard classes and not enough time. Then next semester, I would do the same stupid thing. So, if I was picking a life experience I would probably sign up for going hungry and being beaten, right? Yeah, I would and then hate myself for volunteering for hell.
But if different lives are learning experiences, then it makes sense to learn from all kinds of different lives. If we are going to learn to love like God loves, then I have a LOT to learn.
Besides, the thing that most people dislike about the concept of eternity is getting bored. But if we keep living different life experiences, then to me, it sounds like we wouldn’t get bored.
So, if there is any kind of life after we finish up this mortal probation, then reincarnation is really the only thing that makes sense to me. I look at some people, and think how little they know. Pick on Pres Nelson for example. I look at him and his life, and I see how much he just doesn’t get. He has such different life experiences than I do than he seems like 99 year old toddler because he doesn’t know so much about things that I do know about. Yet, he would probably look at my life and swear there is just so much that I don’t understand. What better way to learn than for me to come back and have very different experiences.
OK, God, I have checked off (all the things of this life) now I want to come back and try being a billionaire who live on a remote tropical island, because I need a vacation.
Several times in the scriptures it talks about having overcome so that they sit down in the kingdom of heaven to go no more out. What does it mean to “go no more out.”Revelation 3:12, Alma 7:25, Alma 29:17, Alma 34:36, Helaman 3:30, 3 Nephi 28:40
And maybe D&C 88:32 is talking about those that Do Go Back.D&C 88:31-32
Some excellent comments already.
Yes, I have come to believe in reincarnation. But we may actually have parallel lives per the many-worlds or multiverse interpretation of quantum mechanics.
I am an American white male born into the middle class. Maybe I am “privileged,” but I am working two jobs at age 63. How do I know what it is like to be a woman, a slave, a holocaust victim, have down syndrome, blindness, paralysis, homelessness, victim of racism, etc? I can have compassion for souls in all these groups. But I cannot have a gut-level understanding of their plights. So I imagine that I have had multiple lives to experience these different roles.
“Families can be together forever” has a different meaning to some who believe in reincarnation. Perhaps, you may have been married to your spouse during several lifetimes, with you and your companion switching the husband and wife roles. Parents and children may switch places. William Wordsworth’s “The child is the father of the man” gives a glimpse of this.
Maybe we are our own ancestors, or our own “kindred dead” in temple language.
Perhaps, we are born male in some lifetimes, and female in others.
Some people feel that they were born into a body of the “wrong gender” and undergo surgeries accordingly. Maybe they are being drawn to the opposite gender of a past life. This is certaintly not a explanation for all transgender cases, but could be for some.
Sadly, as the poster named “Faith” noted, these “possible explanations” would disrupt the LDS leadership’s apple cart.
But this approach does invite us to have a greater sense of compassion, tolerance and love for those souls who are different than us.
Anna, yes, when I think about him/me now, it’s like remembering someone else. I think that’s the only way the maturing me could hold on: by remembering specifics (and there are very few now). I am a doubter by nature and the whole thing is just so implausible. I tell myself this was an imaginary friend I invented—but every now and then that sense of separateness falls away and the distinction between him and me vanishes, and for a wild moment I’m him again. I can even see my hands—very different the ones I have now. Remember loving some of the people I cared most about then.
I’m mostly convinced it’s a product of my childhood imagination, but when I get those moments of flashback—wow, it doesn’t feel like that.
Heber C. Kimball was formerly a potter and he believed that those who were damned were broken down into their native intelligence like potter’s clay, lost their identity, and reformed into spirits again to be born on another Earth. I don’t know that any Mormons believed that you were on this Earth as another person in the past.
Is it possible? Sure. And it is interesting that reincarnation is part of many belief systems. I had never heard of those stories from kids claiming to remember another life. But as someone who has had it pretty easy in this life, the idea of living another mortal life does not appeal. Statistically it seems like it could only be worse. I mean, I much prefer the idea of a joyous rest without physical or mental pain in the presence of a loving God at the end of life to another possibly terrible physical go-around.
Reincarnation makes God look like a grumpy coach making his players do extra laps just because he could. I hated that guy. Once is enough, coach.
And if the Hindus are right, and we keep doing laps until we are good enough to get out? Well, it certainly explains why American politics is a mess. The worst of the worst has hung around through the centuries until they are now in charge.
One of my favorite short stories is “The Egg,” by Andy Weir. The gist of the story is that every human who ever lives is a reincarnation of a single consciousness. The name of the story comes from the idea that our entire universe is an incubator for this single consciousness, who, after living every possible human life, will become a god-like being. I think that’s such a cool idea. If we’re all actually the same person, we would be so much more motivated to treat each other with compassion and understanding.
I think the idea of reincarnation in general also motivates selfless action. If you know you’re going to be coming back to earth after you die, you’ll want to make sure you’re leaving the place better than you found it.
In actuality, reincarnation is a fact. The term raising of the dead is a diluted term originally taken from the Egyptian term raising of the djed. The djed signifies pillars of consciousness, not just with the subconscious, but the superconscious. Terms like bringing the bones to life is a metaphor, just as sackcloth & wineskins which is the physical body that the soul is currently operating in the physical plane. One of the most simple explanations is found in the Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch. Baruch was a prophet & seer, and a scribe for the prophet Jeremiah. See chapter 50, verses 1-4. So simply put, as Baruch asked how the dead will be raised. They will be recognized, at least for some, which means the pillars of consciousness are allowed access to the soul’s memory banks of the Higher Mind. This can be found in ‘The Apocryphal Old Testament’ 1984 HB or 1987 PB by Oxford. Edited by H.F.D. Sparks. That is why you have people starting to be brought back into Remembrance, which verifies, we are at the very point of time that Baruch was explained this would occur. Think of the soul as needing a vehicle, like a car, in order to get around here in the physical. You hopefully do not stay in that car your whole life. When that car has served its purpose, you discard it, then get another vehicle. If you will notice when Jesus put the question to the disciples. Many names popped up as to who Jesus was, yet he never poo-poohed them for that. The important thing was who was right then. In the LDS D&C there is a question and answer revelation, actually two. But one ends with sharing that they are the “two witnesses”, which ties in with the two witnesses in the book of Revelation. In a medieval book from around 1600 to 1800, this question as to who these two were, the answer in the same format as the two LDS D&C, was that they will be Moses & Elias (Elijah) raised once again in sackcloth (aka physical body). It is more interesting is that they have already been here & will be again. They who started the Restoration, will return to finish what they were intrusted with. If you wonder how it was that two set up a church so fast & enduring, it was by the power of God sending his two servants/messengers- Joseph Smith (Elijah) & Oliver Cowdery (Moses). If you recall, these three are heavily involved as Elijah & Moses discussed with Jesus on Mount Hermon exactly what was to unfold in Jesus’ days ahead. There was the earlier time that Moses & Aaron (Elijah) & Joshua led, to where we picked up at this point in Jesus’ day. And to this time in the early Restoration, initiated by Jesus to the culmination of the Restoration resulting in Zion or ZOMAS which indicates “Self-knowledge” or knowing themselves (as well as others) I know some are hung upon the scripture saying it is appointed for man to die once. This is not speaking of individual people. This is reflecting humanity as a whole from, a much larger scenario, to what the Far East phases we are set upon- The Age of Kali-Yuga (Death & Destruction which includes loss of remembrance). We are near the ending of that age. A Golden age will follow. In other words this age the one of death.
Let’s start with one of the initial points, and that is the beliefs of Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow Daybell. They see/saw that previous lives allows one not be responsible in this one. Because he was one Jesus’ apostles and she was his former spouse they could sleep with each other (while married to others) without consequences. And, he could determine (with a pendulum) who was “light” or “dark” and then expel those possessing the dark ones, including her children and both their spouses (ie. Murder them). The sheer evil of this pair, and their kooky followers, led to at least 4 murders and probably two other attempted ones. If that is the fruit of multiple mortal probations then it should be rejected.
The idea of reincarnation seems mutually exclusive with what is taught about the afterlife in conventional Mormonism. Especially considering what is practiced in the temple. Each individual soul is seen as unique, inhabiting only one body, which is to be resurrected at some point after death. I don’t believe that Mormon teaching about resurrection can be reconciled with reincarnation.
I’ve actually been on Double-Secret Probation since my days in the Delta Tau Chi fraternity in the 1960’s.
The thought of having to come back here and do this again makes me sick. I’d rather be done. I suppose this question would be a good way to tell who is enjoying life and who is not.
While, as noted above, I’m open to reincarnation I also firmly believe in free will/choice. I don’t think you have to come back if you don’t want to. I’m with some of you, I think after this life I am not inclined to want to come back, but who knows!? I still think we don’t know squat about anything outside of this earthly realm.
For those of you telling us that “according to what is taught in the temple,” after the temple taught me that my husband was to be my “lord” instead of Jesus, and I would be a priestess unto him and not God and that my husband was in a hierarchy between me and God, I quit caring one twit about what the temple teaches. It is obviously false because it told me that I was not really a child of God, only the wife of my husband. So, since that is obviously not inspired of God our Father, but only Masonry, I went looking for other sources of truth that felt like men and women were both Children of Heavenly Father and (one) Heavenly Mother.
And, gebanks, are you saying that I am not Mormon? Well, OK, maybe I’m not. But to me it is obvious that church leaders have no more *real* idea of what the next life is than I do, so, since I really don’t even like the Mormon view of eternity for women, I guess I will just go ahead and believe what feels better. “Sad Heaven” as the current church president describes it sounds yucky. Eternity without my apostate children isn’t what I want, so I’ll go where they are. The current Mormon view of the CK doesn’t sound any better to me than reincarnation for eternity. Since the temple still teaches that women are somehow “under” men, even though most Mormons pretend that the temple doesn’t say that at all, it does say that, I’ll take real equality between the sexes. Since the Mormon sealing idea allows my husband to take other wives and I just don’t want eternity in a harem. Besides, it sure sounds like I am spending eternity pregnant in the Mormon version of the Celestial Kingdom, and for me pregnancy was hell, so, nope, just nope. And Catholic Heaven and playing a harp for eternity doesn’t sound much fun either. Nope.
Seriously, I would rather learn personally what slavery feels like, personally learn what being born male feels like, personally learn what it is like to have Down’s syndrome. There are so many interesting things to learn and I am not afraid of learning the tough stuff. So, since all of us seem to be picking the belief we *like* best and none of us have any real idea what the next life is, I will pick reincarnation because several chances to prove ourselves and learn seem much more fair than the one chance in a very unfair world that Mormonism believes in.
These comments have been a fascinating read, the accounts of little children experiencing unexplained phenomena are especially interesting to me. Also, the variety of comments is remarkable too. Who knew such a cross section would read this blog?
But, I gotta agree with Anna, none of us really knows for sure. Not leaders, not the lowest of believers, not even prophets or seers among us. If you’re alive, you don’t know, even those who offer their NDEs. It’s fun to speculate, but in this world, our sentient consciousness is limited by time to the here and now, and by memory (both ours and others’) only back as far as our birth. We get to observe in others only the span between birth and death, slightly less for ourselves. The glimmers that tantalize illuminate next to nothing, but are endlessly retold, and offered up as legit facts. There is only one universal fact we can claim as solid — we will all experience finding out what’s real, in our future in this lifetime. Every last one of us, guaranteed.
Edgar Cayce was a strict believer in the Bible & read it once a year. He started with giving himself a medical reading while under hypnosis. After that they utilized his gift to help others. He is now officially the father of holistic medicine. However, one day, reincarnation popped up while under hypnosis. After they told him what he had said under hypnosis (the session), he wanted to swear off of doing any more readings as reincarnation was not taught in the Bible. However, one person pulled him aside & said let’s look in the Bible. This person pooled different scriptures which indicated reincarnation was in play by God in his greater purposes, then resumed his readings. A total of over 14,000 Readings have been preserved & catalogued under many subjects for members of his group & all people to be able to search. Cayce finally realized reincarnation followed God’s plan to help bring his children (souls) back. This is why it is said, God is no respecter of persons.
Lots of fascinating comments indeed on the topic of reincarnation. Honestly I had no idea that so many commenters on here were open to the idea of reincarnation. What I would be interested to see that I have yet to see is a debate between those who subscribe to an afterlife where reincarnation is a possibility and those who believe in an afterlife where reincarnation doesn’t and cannot take place. What exactly would serve as evidence? What would be the basis for disagreement?
I would also be interested to know from those who are open to the idea of reincarnation, are you also open to the idea that you could possibly reincarnate into the body of a dog or a cow, or some other kind of animal? After all, that is what is commonly believed among many Hindus. You go to India and see all kinds of stray cows and dogs roaming the streets.
I don’t know if one can reincarnate as an animal, but unfortunately I do know a few whose actions bring to mind animals or animal parts.
Brad, many of the religions who believe in reincarnation believe in progression. As spirits grow, they are put into more intelligent beings. Even Hindus. So, unless you SHRINK in intelligence, no you cannot come back as a dog. Also, there are no huge leaps from being a horse into being a human. Slow progress as the spirit grows in love, abilities, and intelligence. And you start as a human male, and if you do that a few thousand times, then you can progress to a human female. Because it takes a much more advanced, strong, loving, giving being to give birth, nurse, and raise a child. (And put up with men without killing them)
Now, don’t get mad at ME for being sexist. I am just telling you what the reincarnation beliefs really are.
Just check out some of the old pagan religions. Also, there is a theory that I have read about that Jesus was heavily influenced by what is now Buddhism. But to understand that theory you have to study what that branch of Buddhism was 2,000 years ago.
From everything I’ve read, the idea that consciousness persists after death in any literal form has yet to be supported by any data. It sounds like most of us would like to believe it does, but we should be just as skeptical of claims of reincarnation as we are of Joseph Smith’s kingdoms of glory or RMN’s sad heaven.
These stories about children describing past lives in vivid details that can be corroborated are interesting but I doubt they would hold up under scrutiny. Because there are many thing that adults have proven themselves definitely capable of: finding patterns in chaos (apophenia), cherry picking details to fit a desired narrative, and manipulating children. And while I don’t doubt the sincerity of those who have described memories of past lives, I have seen just how powerful my own child’s imagination can be and I think we’d be wise to embrace that as the most likely explanation.
All signs point to this: we’ve got one life to live on this rock. One chance to do what we’re gonna do. Once chance to make whatever meaning we can out of it.
Honestly, I have no idea. I do find the idea of reincarnation (specifically that we progress in enlightenment through the process of multiple lives–a progression of learning) to be intriguing, but unconvincing. Yet I can’t quite come to terms with what our minds are, that spark of genius that resides in each of us, even in animals. We aren’t just bodies and instincts. When I meet people, I fluctuate between thinking “Wow, people are idiots,” and “Wow, people are each smart in their own way.” And then these sparks extinguish, never to be seen again, when we die, and new ones come to life as babies are born. Is it just a quirk of nature? Some divine ember? Something immutable that just moves from one life to another?
I forgot to add, in the early Roman Catholic Church, reincarnation was a doctrine. Even the higher authorities Emperor Justinian’ wife – Theodore, criticized this doctrine & pressured Justinian to remove it (nullify it). If reincarnation were true, all souls were equal, therefore this created difficulties for the ruling class over the common people. She finally got Justinian involved & in two councils, he overrode Pope Vigilius and was able to expel the doctrine of reincarnation from the Church. In other words, in order to have to vote it out, means it was already in place as one of the doctrines. In order to pull this off even more, the wording was altered, reincarnation was replaced by resurrection. Some sensitive texts & narratives were removed from the Gospels.
For more, see Tony Bushby’s very well researched book on NDEs- ‘Glimpses of Life Beyond Death’ 2004 PB by Joshua Books. Definitely see the portion of “Reincarnation verses removed from Christian texts” on pp.120-123 which ends noting “… the church today preaches resurrection, not reincarnation.” There should be used copies available if no new ones are.
Krikstall, you said “These stories about children describing past lives in vivid details that can be corroborated are interesting but I doubt they would hold up under scrutiny.”. That is what I thought also, until I read a book called “Life Before Life” by Jim Tucker, an MD. He applied rigorous scientific methods to each of the cases, interviews the subject, family and friends, and looked at all the ways the stories could be explained away. He still wound up with lots of cases that the only explanation was reincarnation.