As you likely know by now, last week at Women’s Conference President Camille Johnson gave a talk in which she emphasized that “[t]he commandment for us to come down and for us to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force” and that “if women cease to bear and nurture children, this mortal experience ends.” She described how in her own life it would have made sense to delay childbearing for financial or childbearing reasons, but she instead had her first baby one year after passing the bar and beginning her legal career. Johnson did, however, work throughout that career.
There have been a lot of reactions to this talk, and I’m not going to repeat them here. They fall into several categories, such as:
- Appreciation that she talked about her professional life, seemingly giving women permission to pursue careers so long as motherhood is their primary focus;
- Anger that she mentioned her experience without also acknowledging the fact that–at the time she was making these decisions–Church leaders quite explicitly discouraged women from working outside the home, and many of her peers listened to this counsel and now as older women harbor extreme regrets about having given up on educational and professional pursuits (many of whom have suffered financial difficulties as adults, particularly if they got divorced);
- Anger that she does not seem to recognize that it was her privilege as a woman with financial resources, family support, and childcare that permitted her to balance have children relatively early in her career while maintaining a foothold in the professional world–a set of favorable circumstances that many women do not experience and who have endured extreme financial and/or personal distress when trying to do both kids and a career or education at a young age;
- Appreciation that in telling her story about letting “God prevail” (Nelsonism alert), she reinforced that women are entitled to personal revelation about how to go about their lives and it’s OK if those lives look different from other people’s.
- Sadness about the many women who would love to, but have not been given the opportunity to be, mothers. Although Johnson addressed this in her talk, telling people they’ll be able to fulfill their highest purpose after they die is not a great way to help something get through this life when their hopes have been disappointed.
Those responses all resonate with me to an extent, but here I want to talk about something else that struck me: that Johnson, like all other LDS Church leaders, focuses on the need for women to find answers about their most personal and difficult decisions from sources outside of themselves: “the prophet, the scriptures, and the spirit.” This struck me because, in the years I have been deconstructing my own faith and listening to stories of countless other women (and men), I’ve become convinced that this is one of the most pernicious and harmful teachings in the LDS Church–especially for women.
First, I’m going to talk generally about the way Church teachings about how to find answers actually teach us to distrust ourselves and why that’s harmful. Then I’m going to talk specifically about how teachings about women having children are particularly destructive in this regard.
***
From the earliest age, we are taught that “the natural man is an enemy to God” and that, therefore, we cannot trust what the natural man wants. Instead, we need to listen to outside sources–the prophet (who Johnson spends considerable time fawning over in her talk and claims that as a father of nine daughters, “understands [women]”) and the scriptures, for starters, and also the spirit as we “let God prevail”.
Some might contend that the “spirit” can just be another word for “intuition”–for a while, that’s how I reformulated the “spirit” in my own thinking. But I not longer see that as an apt comparison, and in my view even teachings that we can get individualized answers from “the spirit” are problematic.
Why?
Well, first, because that concept removes ourselves from the equation: good answers come from outside of ourselves, from some disembodied member of the Godhead that we must rely on to come to correct conclusions (and, by the way, if those conclusions contradict with what LDS leaders have said–ask again). More on this in part two, but one of the interesting things about getting older and seeing many friends leave the Church is that we are all trying to figure out at age forty how to make decisions, how to actually listen to our bodies and to our intuition, how to develop our own set of values to guide our choices and actions, after spending a lifetime looking outside of us for guidance and suppressing what our own bodies and intuition were telling us. (We are also learning how to buy normal human underwear, but I digress.)
For me personally, I can see how although in some respects it was a comfort to believe I could access answers from God about difficult decisions, in other respects it taught me not to trust myself or my own inklings and desires–particularly if those were inconsistent with what I was being told I should want and answers I should be receiving and how I should feel.
I can’t really overstate how problematic this is, how many women I know who are having to do deep, difficult work to excavate the self that they buried underneath a heap of doctrine and dogma that they adopted as their own over the quiet objections of their own inner knowing. The work of reclaiming personal autonomy is the work of our second half of life, and we mourn how deeply we buried ourselves for so long.
And, second, this concept is problematic because it is LDS men who control the conditions by which the gift of the Holy Ghost is bestowed upon people and set conditions upon which it can be accessed once received. Although we have some confusing teachings around the “spirit” and “the light of Christ” being available to everyone (otherwise, how could we expect investigators to get answers about whether the Church is True), we are very clear that there is something distinct about receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, which we can only receive from a priesthood-holding man who acts as an intermediary between us and God. Even more problematically, we are taught that the gift isn’t effective if we aren’t keeping rules set by LDS Church leaders–if we are impure.
This is an excellent means of control, for sure–while I was always a good girl who followed all the rules, at times scrupulosity would set in and I would worry that I was not entitled to answers to prayers or revelation if anything in my life was amiss. Where answers were not forthcoming, I anguished over whether there was some unresolved sin or indiscretion that was blocking me from accessing the Holy Ghost. While I do think that living out of harmony with our own values and integrity might make it difficult for us to listen to ourselves for answers, that’s very different than anxiety and shame associated with thinking that if we stepped out of line–zap! We’d make terrible decisions on our own.
I was listening to a podcast from John Larsen once and he said something that stopped me in my tracks: Religion takes what we already have and sells us back an inferior version.
I believe that whole-heartedly. Religion takes from us our most precious resource (our inner knowing, our intuition), and sells us back (literally, given that tithing is a prerequisite to worthiness to access the Holy Ghost, along with all the other requirements) an inferior version (a version that comes from outside rather than within and that will only give us correlated answers). This is where I have a hard time thinking “live and let live” when it comes to Church. Because I think there is true harm being done, true violence to our souls, by what appears to be a fairly innocuous and even inspiring teaching about how we can access a higher power (outside of ourselves) for guidance and help.
Everything you need you already have.
***
Ok, having laid that groundwork, let me talk specifically about Church teachings that women’s highest, holiest calling is to mother children and the impact it had on me personally.
Mine is not a story about an ambitious woman who gave up educational or career aspirations to stay home with children and now in mid-life is suffering financial hardships (particularly if she finds herself divorced or widowed) or simply mourning the loss of an important part of herself that she never gave herself permission to explore or develop. There are stories out there about that, and those are important, but they aren’t my story. I didn’t have a choice but to work, and in hindsight although that was very difficult for me at the time, I’m beyond grateful that those circumstances saved me from Church teachings.
I was born with professional ambitions. I remember from the very earliest ages thinking about career options despite having literally zero examples of professional or working women in my own life. In fact, the first career idea I can remember having, which must have been around kindergarten, was to be a garbage truck driver because I learned they made more money than teachers and it seemed pretty easy and garbage trucks were cool. For much of elementary school, I wanted to be a “pediatric neurologist”, probably just because it sounded fancy and smart and I was an extremely bright and ambitious kid who worried that colleges might look at my grades in 6th grade in case of a tie between me and other candidates. I worked my tail off all through elementary, middle, and high school; attended a competitive university and worked my tail off there, too; and graduated at the top of my class in law school with dozens of job offers.
All through this time, I experienced significant anguish about why what I wanted for my life, what I couldn’t remember ever not wanting, did not line up with what Church leaders told me that God wanted for me. I thought I was selfish or bad or just somehow wrong. All through college and into law school, I was deeply afraid that I would be punished because of my choice to attend a non-BYU school and have educational and career ambitions. Luckily, I did occasionally hear the refrain that I could get my own answers, but that seemed mostly followed up with an assurance that when the time came to have kids that was indeed what I would want to do. And it didn’t make the fears that my ambitions & work towards those ambitions would disqualify me from marriage or motherhood. (And for real, in some sense they did–I was not exactly getting asked out a lot, not too many LDS men I came across were interested in dating someone smarter or more successful than them.)
But I had a trump card, a secret tool that I imagine most women did not: my patriarchal blessing expressly told me to get a good education so that I could support myself for a time and help support my own family later on. I spent many, many hours poring over that when I doubted myself. Why that patriarch said that I do not know–although I no longer see something like a patriarchal blessing the way I did at the time, I still think that anyone who is trying to help someone else, to channel God’s love, can be inspired. So I don’t know. I guess the guy was inspired. I honestly don’t know how I would have felt or what I would have done if I hadn’t had that couple of sentences in my blessing. And I can’t imagine a lot of women my age had the same resource.
While I’m grateful for that, in hindsight I still find it problematic because I still was not learning to trust myself. I trusted a patriarch who had never met me until moments before giving me that blessing to know what was best for me more than I trusted myself. And, I was constantly praying and seeking answers and revelation to confirm my path. Again, there’s nothing wrong with praying and meditating and seeking, but it is problematic to bury our own feelings, our own desires, in search of what something external to us tells us.
I even remember one time some old man in the temple, who I don’t know, saw that I was pregnant and said that I would bring “many more sons into the world.” And here’s the crazy thing. I didn’t think he was crazy, or inappropriate. I actually believed–in the context of where this occurred–that maybe he was actually speaking for God when he said that. Like God would tell some rando who I had never met before what he had in store for me, instead of telling, umm, me.
Skipping ahead, I graduated during an economic downturn and job opportunities were limited. This meant I didn’t have a choice but to work–or, I guess, have no money or healthcare insurance to care for my family. Even then, I still felt a tremendous amount of guilt for working, felt like maybe we’d done something wrong to land ourselves in a situation that was “contrary” to what God wanted us to be doing. Any concern with a kid I blamed on myself for working. I was not particularly invested in my career–I liked what I did, and I did a good job because that’s my nature, but it took me a long time before I started thinking more long-term and strategically about my career because for many years I hoped to be able to quit around the corner.
Eventually, my confidence in my career grew, and my deference to Church leaders when it came to personal matters (or any other matters) decreased. That’s a longer story for another day, but I will say that reclaiming personal autonomy and learning to listen to and trust myself has been a huge amount of work over the last several years–and it’s work that many women I know are also doing.
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What’s ironic about all of this is that–newsflash–women don’t need Church leaders to tell them to have families.
I’ve spent much of my educational & professional life in a primarily non-LDS context. And guess what. Women at my prestigious undergraduate university were trying to think about career paths that would be family-friendly. Women at my law firm made sacrifices to spend more time with their kids / be the lead parent–whether that was taking time off, stepping back completely, or taking on a reduced schedule. My two closest law firm friends, not LDS, had three and four kids respectively, and worked many years on a reduced schedule so that they could be the lead parent where they had a husband who traveled a lot / worked crazier hours. We talked about being good moms all the time. No religious organization had to tell us we should think that was important.
So what does this pressure from Church leaders do? As in my experience, it just adds guilt and shame and confusion to what is already a difficult decision for women. For many, it fills them with regret years later when they realize they didn’t really get to make a choice (which is much worse than making a tough choice and living with it).
It adds nothing helpful. Nada. Zilch. It fills women with self-doubt and self-distrust if the thing that they want in their heart of hearts is apparently contrary to the thing they’ve been told God wants for them. It fills them with fears that if their marriages don’t work out or children aren’t perfect, it was their fault for working.
This issue, and so many in the Church, comes down to a very simple and unfortunate reality: Church leaders do not trust women to make their own decisions. Church leaders do not trust women to know what is best for their families and themselves. And women growing up in this environment learn not to trust themselves, either, if their own yearnings aren’t sufficiently correlated.
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I spent a lot of years trying to be the “example” to LDS women that I always wished I had–mother, professional, progressive, still faithful. That’s a lot of pressure. I don’t put a ton of pressure on my self to be any kind of “example” any more–or at least, not to make decisions based on that–but if I could be any kind of example now, it would be to show and tell women this:
You are in charge of yourself. Nobody–NOBODY–knows better than you what’s right for you and your family. Stop seeking validation from Church leaders and neighbors and family and friends. It will never be enough. The only thing that will ever be enough is to learn that everything you have or need to be whole and to make decisions is right there inside of you and it has been all along.
***
I recently spent time with some non-LDS friends who knew me well when I was very orthodox. When I shared with them that I am no longer very orthodox and my Church participation is fairly limited, they asked, “What’s been the best part?”
I said:
“Not needing to fit every idea I come across or thought I have into a box that somebody else defined. Not needing to filter everything through a Church lens. Just being open to ideas, the world, other people, and taking them as they are.
Belonging to myself.
Oh, and wearing normal underwear.”

As the father of three daughters in their 20s I am so thankful that they have left the Church because I trust them to make the best decisions for themselves much more than I trust the Church to guide them to make the best decisions. It’s that simple.
I appreciate this. Learning to trust my own decision making skills has been a struggle (and overcoming the passivity that accompanied it).
I had a epiphany a few years ago when I heard a (non-LDS) speaker say that we all have a wise voice inside our heads that knows the answers (he imagined his looked like Gandalf) and I realized in that moment that I had assumed that voice was 1, The Holy Ghost and 2, male. What did that mean if the ‘wise voice in my head’ was external and male? How was I going to trust my own internal voice and compass when I was removing myself from it? I began the conscious prophet of claiming that voice as my own.
I don’t understand the rationale for the speech. Has there been an increase of women not wanting to be mothers in the Church? I don’t recall meeting any.
*conscious PROCESS, not prophet
@Old Man, hah! Great question.
I don’t know a lot of (any?) LDS women who full-on don’t want to be mothers, but I imagine that the Church has data on (1) the age a woman is when she has her first kid & (2) total number of kids. I wouldn’t be surprised if (1) is going up and (2) is going down.
They seem to be assuming this is because of a lack of testimony of the importance of motherhood. In reality I imagine it’s due to a very changed economic & cultural environment. My mom for one will fully admit that she could never raise the number of kids she had (5) today given the expense, lack of community support, need to drive everyone everywhere, serious mental health issues in so many kids, etc. etc. etc.
It is not that different than Oaks assuming that people’s support of gay marriage is because they just don’t understand the doctrine, so he keeps at it. No buddy, we get it. It just doesn’t match our lived experience.
Old Man – it’s demographics and birthrate statistics. The birth rates of rich, industrialized, educated nations have been falling – and the same trend is happening within the church, albeit at a slower rate. But the growth in children of record membership has been declining in the US for some time now, causing Oaks in particular to speak out on the subject.
Elisa – this was a powerful narrative. My wife and I have had many discussions about how our life might have been different if we’d done things according to what we felt inside rather than according to the scripted path engrained in us by church, family, and culture since the time we were children. My heart goes out to the many women who find themselves in difficult financial circumstances because they put church counsel and culture above their own goals and desires based on their sincere belief that it was the right thing to do.
One of my biggest problems with the church is how it prioritizes obedience, submission of will, and following the prophet above all else – which results in stunted personal morality/ethics and the inability to make choices based on our own values.
How do people feel about the messaging to women about whether to go on a mission? Something like, “we encourage it but it’s your decision?” It seems to respect individual choice and autonomy. This is a better model for the church to employ in talking about life decisions. I wish that was the message to the men, instead of the “priesthood responsibility” rhetoric.
I appreciate that Camille told a story about following her own personal revelation rather than strictly following EBT’s direction at that time. It is positive to have a woman that does that in leadership and telling her story. However, it’s a glaring omission that she fails to confront the fact that to follow her own personal revelation for her individual family, she had to act contrary to current prophetic counsel and the church culture supported by that counsel. While that had to be very difficult for her, she fails to share her experience. Sharing her experience with the women of the church could be genuinely liberating for women who feel very in touch with God and their own personal revelation, but are being told constantly that this revelation is of no value unless it is confirming the counsel of male leaders. However, I have no doubt that she wouldn’t long remain in her position if she chose to tell that story.
While I appreciate your point of view Elisa, you are a step too far for the beginning steps of liberation for most women in the church. I hear you that personal revelation is being billed as from an outside male source. However, for me at least, I value my own impressions and lived experience as better information to base personal revelation on, than the counsel of male leaders who have no access to what I have learned in my experiences. For me at least, my personal revelation is based on a very internal source of information. I may consider other external sources, but it is all seen in light of my own internal impressions.
I think this is a beginning step for liberation for women of the church. Depend upon your own personal revelation based on your knowledge of your own life, and the information you gather from all sources, rather than on what some authoritative LDS leader has to say. There are so many LDS voices and theology to support that. However we have gone so far in the church in supporting authoritative patriarchal voices, that those voices are used against a woman’s personal autonomy, with the imprecise devastation of a club.
My personal experiences with my special needs children opened my eyes in ways that I know the male leaders that preach in the church, have no experience with (if they had experience with this they never would have the time to be called to the callings they are in). I can’t bear to have them try to offer counsel on things they simply do not understand. It hurts. As you noted, they also don’t have understanding of women’s underwear. Nor do they seem to understand the effects of excluding people from equality in church leadership or theological heaven based on inborn characteristics.
Thank you for sharing your perspectives.
I have posted a couple times now and had it disappear. Don’t have time to repeat it.
Families are wonderful, and society can only continue if those who die are replaced by new individuals. But there is something that is being lost in this push for as many babies as possible.
The irrefutable fact is that we do not need as many babies to keep society going as we used to. In the days that I remember well, there were no seat belts and hordes of children rode in the backs of station wagons and pickup trucks. In addition, children rode bikes without wearing helmets and rode sleds down steep streets in the winter.
A family needed to have many children to make up for those who were killed in car, bike, and sledding accidents. Odds were that a family with two children would only end up with one as an adult, and that was if they were lucky.
That is no longer the case. Children simply do not die, thankfully, by the thousands in everyday accidents as they used to. A family with two children will almost always see the two reach adulthood, at least in developed countries.
All that having vast hordes of children accomplishes these days is creating exasperation for mothers and fathers. There are too many children to spend adequate time on. The unsupervised children simply become Bon Jovi-listening hooligans who spend their time playing violent video games. That does nothing to help society at large or the Church in particular.
We’ve really progressed as a society when we’ve reduced the number of sled accidents that caused death to children 🙂
The Church’s track record with respect to anything related to family, women, sexuality, LGBTQ, and gender roles over the course of at least the last 50 years is abysmal. Church leaders have repeatedly given terrible, and most definitely uninspired, advice/commands/rules almost every time they’ve chosen to speak about them. So, yeah, I completely agree that women are going to make better decisions regarding career, family, children, underwear, etc. and be much happier with their lives by relying on themselves than they ever will by listening to what the Q15 has to say.
Even though I have not experienced much inspiration that I can attribute to a divine source in my own life, I do feel like I’ve felt it occasionally, however weakly, and don’t want to completely abandon the idea of seeking direction from God. That said, I’m definitely not looking for God to confirm what the Q15 have said. In fact, the Q15’s track record has been so bad that if I were to receive inspiration, I would expect it to frequently contradict the views of Church leaders.
The experiences and feelings expressed in the OP really touched me because I have a daughter that seems similar to the Elisa in many ways who is at the point in her life where she is going to have to make some very important decisions regarding education, career, family, etc., and I really fear for her future. I know all parents think their children are special, and they all are, but my daughter is objectively extremely bright and driven at school. She has repeatedly expressed the desire to have a career and be a mother. She has also always been a “good girl” who mostly followed all the rules. She was accepted to several of the “competitive schools” that Elisa mentions, but unfortunately, she wasn’t accepted at the one she really wanted to go to, so she decided to go to her backup school, BYU, instead. Despite serious reservations about BYU, she actually loved her freshman year there as she was able to find a group of likeminded more liberal thinkers there. She is currently on a mission after finishing her freshman year.
I really wanted my daughter to go to one of the competitive schools just to keep her away from the dominant BYU culture regarding women, (early) marriage, (shunning) careers, (early and many) children, etc. I also didn’t want her to go on a mission very badly because I feared she’d potentially get too indoctrinated in the Church leader’s views on these issues. In my communications with her, I frequently mention the possibility of applying as a transfer student to her dream school when she returns from her mission. My wife and I are comfortable, but not super wealthy. Even so, I guess we make enough that we are going to get zero assistance from one of these schools if she were to transfer. This means that I’d be looking at paying in excess of $300,000 to get her away from the ideas and expectations for women so prevalent at BYU, and I’m TOTALLY willing to do so because, again, the Church’s positions regarding women are SO BAD. I so want to save my daughter from some of the pain an anguish described in the OP. I’m scared for her.
I think it’s important to identify how bad and uninspired the Q15’s teachings regarding family, gender roles, women, LGBTQ, sexuality, etc. have truly been over the last 50 years. Here’s a list of things that immediately come to mind:
1. All women should stay home and not pursue a career.
2. Couples should have as many children as possible regardless of their own personal desires.
3. Couples should not use birth control.
4. Couples should not engage in oral sex.
5. Gay people choose to be gay and can change their sexuality through prayer, repentance, faith, etc.
6. Gay students subjected to electroshock therapy at BYU.
7. The POX. Children of gay parents can’t be baptised until the age of 18 and disavow their gay parent’s sexuality.
8. Female CES instructors (seminary and institute) must immediately resign upon having a child. (This was recently changed so that they can continue to work if they want.)
9. Women Church employees denied birth control coverage (also recently changed).
10. Women not allowed to pray in sacrament meetings.
11. Women not allowed to pray in General Conference.
12. Polygamy. Yes, we haven’t practiced it for over a centural. Well, unless you count the polygamous sealings done when a wife dies, and the husband remarries, D&C 132 is still canonized scripture, etc.
13. Active Church support for banning gay marriage in multiple states.
14. Automatic excommunication of members who are in a legal gay marriage.
15. Men are always to be the primary income source in families, regardless of whether the woman might be a much better source of income and/or the man might be better or more inclined to stay home, or whether the man and the woman would prefer to work together to raise children while pursuing their careers.
16. Teaching that masturbation is a sin. Preventing prospective missionaries who confess to masturbation from serving missions while all the “smart” ones learn to lie to pass their “worthiness” interview (given the known rates of masturbation in that age group, the lying is/was rampant).
17. Hyperfocusing on the consumption of pornography to the point that their words probably caused more Church members to consume pornography than they otherwise would have.
18. Preventing women from fully participating in Church leadership and direction by withholding ordination and being slow to implement reforms that don’t require ordination.
19. Retrenchment on garment wearing while refusing to make changes to garments.
20. Getting ZERO input from women when formulating the a Proclamation while insisting on presenting the document in a women’s session of General Conference.
21. Participating (and making a big deal) about participating in the World Congress on Familes, an LGBTQ hate group that has supported truly awful laws against LGBTQ people in Eastern Europe and Africa.
And that’s what came to mind in just the last 10 minutes or so. When looking for guidance on these issues, I agree with the OP. It’s much better to look inwardly at yourself for answers than it is to look to Church leaders!
Elisa, great post! So many of my peers (I’m also early 40s) are also learning only now to know what they want. And many are angry because they feel they’ve left it too late.
And while the optimist in me wants to say, “It’s never too late,” we don’t get our time back. If you had more kids than you wanted, it’s too late. If you had them earlier than you wanted, it’s too late. There are careers we age out of. Opportunities that don’t come back.
I am trying to teach my daughters to trust themselves. It’s not easy, and church teachings actively make it harder.
Elisa and I feel pretty similarly about this and most things, although our lives have unfolded somewhat differently, and I’m a bit older. My experience with all of this took its own course, and maybe I’ll post more about it next week. We’ll see. I always chose to work due to my own internal need for financial stability and personal fulfillment, and I have no regrets about that. My kids didn’t feel like there was a downside; in fact, there was tremendous upside in that all 3 of them have been to about 30 countries each as a result. I didn’t feel guilty about working, and in fact, I noticed that I was often treated with more respect from men in the Church when they found out what I did. One time we had another couple over for dinner after church, and the husband looked at me as if the housecat had suddenly started talking when I explained what I did for a living. Suddenly I was interesting, not just part of the background. That happened often, and many men in the church would seek out my opinions. I was taken seriously. I don’t think that was strictly a byproduct of my career, but it was kind of all wrapped up together.
Throughout my life I’ve developed different mantras that have kept me grounded and less likely to fall for some of the church’s bad advice, including a similar thought to what John Larsen said above which seems like a riff on the old adage about consultants. “Whoever writes the checks makes the decisions” is one. That means if I’m the one paying for my life, nobody’s advice trumps my own. The church isn’t paying me to do what they want; I’m footing the bill. The checks all go the other direction, so to quote the Dude, “That’s just your opinion, man.” As someone whose parents were two generations older than me (they were in their 40s when I was born), I have also always felt that I had a unique insight into how outdated and out of touch with modern realities these folks are, not as an insult, but just a natural byproduct of their age. They literally grew up in a different world with completely different ideas and values. They have huge blind spots. They are doing the best they can, but it’s still way way way out of step with the reality I actually have to live in.
Another epiphany: “The person doing the majority of a task gets the majority of the say in how that task is done.” That’s true if it’s housekeeping, parenting, car maintenance, or career. And it’s true in callings at church. An epiphany from my mission: “If women can’t be in leadership, we aren’t really under leadership because that would be like taxation without representation. We have our own direct access to God. Church is by men for men.” A private epiphany (or idea anyway): “Priesthood is like the Loyal Order of the Water Buffalo. The men need some kind of club with weird hats to be able to belong.”
But my most recent epiphany was when menopause told me “You matter.” I swear to God, that hit me like a hurricane, stripping away the shutters and roofing on my self-perception. I told my husband “I just can’t do stuff that I don’t want to do anymore. I am no longer capable of making myself do it.” He of course said, “When have you ever done stuff you don’t want to do?” as if to say I’ve always been confident, sassy, and grounded in my own wishes. But here’s the thing. I have been like that far more than the average Mormon, sure. I have been willing to do my own thing and not care what people think. Definitely. But there have also been so many things where I just went along to get along, and for WHAT? No good reason.
Another epiphany: “It is NEVER ENOUGH.” Another epiphany: “The person most affected by the decision needs to have the most say in that decision.” Another epiphany: “Being qualified to give advice is earned by being better than me at something or wiser than me.” Another epiphany: “The more pushy someone is about something, the more insecure they are that they are right.” Another epiphany: “Conservatives want to keep the status quo because it is working for them, not because it’s working for other people.”
So, if the Church wants more babies, perhaps the best thing it could do is subsidize day care? And maybe release younger married men from leadership callings so they can help more at home?
Old Man: … and since the Church basically runs politics in Utah, set the example of requiring generous maternity & paternity leave, Medicaid expansion, and in general, providing better financial support for families.
Not much to add except that there is a glaring effort to put women in their place in the church, which is decidedly below men. My daughter is a senior at BYU and was asked to speak on Mother’s Day in her student ward. Her topic: not mothers. Just choose a talk from April 2024 conference. She thought ok fine I’ll choose a talk about mothers or families, but when she looked there weren’t any. She called the bishop back and asked if she could speak on a Mother’s Day topic and she was expressly forbidden. I’m willing to bet this direction came from the stake president or higher.
Also – I just finished the AppleTV series “Lessons on Chemistry” and recommend 10/10. For those unfamiliar- it’s in large part about the patriarchy.
I am in the same cohort as President Camille Johnson. We took President Benson’s teaching to heart.
We had a lot of very tight years. Advanced education (in an average paying field) with kids in tow. A nearly relentless flow of high medical expenses and hands-on care started next.
I thought it was righteous to be poor.
At some point, I looked toward the future, and knew our family needed 2 incomes. Pursuing education to earn a fair salary added stress to our family, both naturally (it was a lot to put everyone through), and psychologically because it broke from the ideal that had been presented by a prophet. I didn’t feel less righteous, but my spouse did.
A few years later, I agreed to my spouse becoming a bishop. In a working class ward, during the recession. With that additional time and attention suck, I cut back drastically on my work hours. The lion’s share of the personal medical needs fell to me. One of the oldest kids, then a senior, called me at the hospital where a discharge from a harrowing illness was imminent (with significant ongoing after care to follow) to tell me they and some friends were stranded on a mountain after totaling our second car.
I wish I’d recognized and processed more thoroughly my own inner compass sooner.
It wasn’t righteous. Much of it was just stupid. We didn’t even feel entrusted to respond appropriately to some glaringly obvious, beyond normal needs.
hmmmm…why do I still feel resentful?
(And many thanks to a kind ht who got the kids and the car off the mountain.)
(And agree – the small pleasure of wearing normal underwear is HUGE.)
edit:
…after totaling our second car. My spouse was barely halfway
through his first year of being bishop.
Toad. Her mistake was asking the bishop if she could change. She should have just done it. I doubt he would have stopped her mid-talk. I think over-all that is what women are going to have to do. Give our children blessings. Talk about what we want to (maybe the last talk we will be giving, but at least we said what we wanted to)
I bore my testimony last time that holding the priesthood should not be based solely on the possession of a Y chromosome (or as my friend Gina calls it the Sacred P*&^s)
Great post Elisa. I enjoy learning from your posts and reflecting on what you share. This helps me as I seek to support the women in my life to trust themselves and live fulfilling lives.
The church’s motives behind the push to get women to have more kids are 1) increase the Mormon population faster, 2) make people more dependent on the church, and 3) keep people busy so that they don’t have time to think about how the church might not be true. The church culture is one of never enough. You must be laden with kids and work and constantly busy. Idleness is shameful. At BYU, there was a culture of constant work and many people seemed downright miserable. Constantly tired, constantly busy. I’ve worked for years to be less busy in my life, and I feel happier for it. My wife and I have pursued jobs and pathways that allow us the maximum amount of time with kids. I quit academia because it is too much work and too little pay. I work in private finance and investment where the time to pay ratio is way, way better. And I have a ton more freedom.
Ideally, countries with aging populations could increase the younger population by naturalizing more immigrants. There is an abundance of young people in Africa. Lots of them want to live in Europe, the US, and other developed countries. Women in many countries should have more kids as well, especially Japan and South Korea. But the church doesn’t present it that way. It’s all about their own agenda, not figuring out population crises in different parts of the world.
It should be noted that there is a strong correlation between women’s freedom and rights and the number of kids they have. In countries where women have the fewest number of kids, they are most educated, accepted in the workplace, and enjoy more equality with men. In countries where women have the most kids, they are uneducated, treated as chattel, and have much shorter lives. Plus in countries where women have the most kids, the infant mortality, illiteracy, and malnutrition rates are the highest. Kids in those countries are often seen as assets to help increase family income rather than as liabilities. Those kids are often subjected to child labor.
Obviously there is an optional balance to be struck. But “more kids, more kids, more kids,” is not it.
Hawkgrrrl, absolutely with you on the epiphany that “I matter”. After a lifetime of being told I need to do this because.. other people. Yes, I studied engineering, progressed my education to PhD level. Not because I love maths and engineering. But because if I was going to be of benefit to my children I needed to understand lots of things, and sciences and maths are just harder to study on your own (in the UK we start narrowing our subjects of study early, once at 14, and then narrower still at 16). So that was the route I took. I didn’t have a natural aptitude. (I did get a job I enjoyed afterwards as a patent searcher, so that was something). I had to do my final year of seminary early morning rather than home study, because there was then only the one class, and the other students needed me to be there, I was told. I was neither use nor ornament to anyone at that time in the morning. And it was detrimental to me both at the time, and how I feel about the church now all these years later. It influenced me to try to protect my kids from the church’s excesses, as I came to see them (though I was not wholly successful in that). As the eldest of 7 children I had to be a good example to my younger siblings. I had a rebellious streak too, but that was very tame really. At the same time, I grabbed hold of opportunities that presented themselves to learn to play music. A lifetime in supporting my parents in their many callings, and taking charge of my siblings when that required them both to be out, or so they could participate in the many organised temple trips.
I mean my education absolutely did benefit both of my children. So I don’t think I made “wrong” choices necessarily. But now. Now, I am just exhausted. Now I just want to live a happy life with everything I need within walking distance. I don’t want to travel. All I need is access to a good library, and to participate in a friendly community orchestra. Thats been the last eighteen months, and I love it.
Mountainclimber, I totally feel you. I’ve got kids in and approaching mission and college age, and I feel like I should be given a new clinical anxiety diagnosis. Further complicating matters is that my spouse is actively pushing them toward BYU and missions, while I am very uneasy about both of those paths. I try to remind myself that BYU is a big place and probably has more diversity of perspective in its student body than I give it credit for. At least I hope so, and your anecdote of your daughter finding some non-fundamentalist friends is encouraging.
My post disappeared. I thought it was pretty benign, but maybe Elisa is a member of the strengthening the church committee in secret. Just kidding, I’m sure it’s a technical issue.
@lindafurness yeah that was pretty much my response to her also. I suggested she talk about whatever topic she feels appropriate encause they won’t stop her. But the gall…
“So, if the Church wants more babies, perhaps the best thing it could do is subsidize day care? And maybe release younger married men from leadership callings so they can help more at home?” – Old Man
I agree that there is a lot that the church could do to support families in practical ways such as day care, housing, etc.
I think that a culture change from “being present and engaged in co-creating a home” instead of “helping out at home” would be more radical, more accurate, and more useful. On a cosmic level, Heavenly Father didn’t “help out” at the creation of the universe after all (right?). Our narrative is that Heavenly Father was a co-creator, not a co-helper of the cosmos…
EDITS: I think that a culture change for men to be more “being present and engaged in co-creating a home” instead of “helping out at home” would be more radical, more accurate, and more useful. On a cosmic level, Heavenly Father didn’t “help out” at the creation of the universe after all (right?). Our narrative is that Heavenly Father was a “co-creator”, not a “co-helper” of the cosmos…
Well, our narrative is actually that God and Jesus did that all themselves with no assistance from a female whatsoever … so yeah I think they can run their households fine.
@Toad & lws – not sure what is happening to comments. I checked the spam folder after you mentioned that and didn’t see anything. Sorry; that’s frustrating.
@Angela, it is funny that we see things largely the same way now, but from what you’ve said about yourself we were VERY different growing up. Perhaps owing to (1) the fact that I grew up in a 99.999999% Mormon community and was sheltered; (2) I had overwhelmingly positive experiences w/r/t Mormonism growing up in my church community & family, away at undergrad in my small little Mormon subculture, on my mission, in grad school, and in the early days of raising my family; and (3) I think I am wired to be a bit more deferential to authority and, frankly, naive. In any event, I was fully in, orthodox, true believer, hook line and sinker, till I was 30ish. You always seemed to have a bit more nuanced & critical eye for things.
(I realize saying I had overwhelmingly positive experiences growing up contradicts somewhat with my post — except I’ll just say, I thought negative experiences were my fault. So yes, I experienced most things as positive, even though Church practices & teachings caused me a lot of anguish and self-doubt that ultimately was not healthy. It’s complicated, right?)
Thanks, Elisa. To be sure, the Church does teach members to prayerfully seek personal revelation with regard to personal decisions, and this was a theme of Pres. Johnson’s talk, but in practice that teaching is more often a mere footnote to more prominent messages of “follow the prophet”, “let God prevail”, “stay on the Covenant Path”, “obedience brings blessings”, the family proclamation, the narrative of the temple endowment and other such teachings that undermine self-determination, especially when internalized through extensive repetition during one’s formative years. Additionally, there is always the unspoken caveat that personal revelation is only correct when it aligns with Church doctrine/prophetic counsel/prevailing GA hobby-horses, otherwise it is to be disregarded. While the idea that personal revelation can override prophetic revelation is technically correct and doctrinally accurate, it is also a very unpopular thing to say out loud in formal LDS contexts, and may get you put on your bishop’s apostate watch list (don’t ask me how I know this).
About 25 years ago, when I was approaching mission-age, I absolutely did not want to serve. I’m an introvert with a nausea-inducing distaste for high-powered sales culture, and at the time did not feel right about the prospect of trying to convert people to a belief system I was having private doubts about. My then-bishop and YM leaders were very pushy about missionary service being mandatory for males, and a “priesthood duty”, going as far as displaying a large tracking chart on the wall of the bishop’s office that counted down the days until each teenage boy in the ward turned 19, “when your mission papers must be sent in!”. My TBM parents, surprisingly, were the voice of reason in this issue, and assured me that as a legal adult, serving a mission was entirely my choice, and just one of many possible honorable choices for a young person to pursue, and that they would love and support me in any of them without judgment. They also reminded me that a mission is not a requirement for salvation. So I didn’t go, and instead went away to college (non-BYU), started my career, met my wife (who was perfectly OK marrying a non-RM, especially after having dated a number of self-righteous, obnoxious RMs previously) and I didn’t have to deal with those overbearing local Church leaders ever again. Ironically, if they had just backed off on the “mandatory” rhetoric, there is a chance I probably would have chosen to serve, though still having a miserable experience with it. In hindsight, I don’t regret my decision.
My point with all of this is, (a) this Church generally does a poor job with helping members understand and exercise self-determination, no matter how much it claims otherwise, and (b) these pressures to “get with the program” and deny your own personal ambitions also exist for men to some extent, not just women. Moreover, the kerfuffle about Pres. Johnson’s talk is just another reminder that certain Mormons (e.g. wealthy, well-connected, high-status) play by different rules than the rest of us.
@Jack Hughes, absolutely agree that the same problems exist for Mormon men. The “external authority” bit is a generally-applicable problem. I would love to hear from folks on other ways this happened for them and, yes, the mission one is a big one.
I definitely agree that high-pressure mission stuff is problematic. The good news about serving a mission is that you aren’t stuck raising it for the rest of your life 🙂 and you get it over with before you’re forties … but there can still be pretty harmful consequences for people who either did serve and had an awful experience, or didn’t serve (or came home early) and had an awful experience as a result of that choice.
A male version of the negative outcomes that can result from doing what the Church tells them to do instead of what they themselves feel is right is men with children who serve in time consuming Church callings. Time consuming Church callings combined with a full-time career can leave a father in a situation where he literally “raises a family” without really knowing his own children at all because he never spent very much time with them.
I never had any desire for high demand, high profile Church callings, and luckily a combination of my personality and my location in the Mormon Corridor, where the potential leadership talent pool is deep, prevented me from being asked to serve in these type of callings. That said, when our first children were born, I was still on a career trajectory that was very quickly seeing me promoted into high profile and very time consuming leadership positions at my company. As a result, I missed out on a lot of family experiences during the first few years of these children’s lives. I mean, I was there as much as many fathers are, but had I been a bishop or something like that at the time, I would have had very little time to be with my very young children at all. Had I then progressed to being a stake president, I could easily have just missed out on my children’s lives altogether as they grew up.
I feel very lucky that the company I was at when my first children were very young was bought out just a few years after they were born. Not long after the change in ownership, I decided to leave this company for an opportunity in the same field, but with a much smaller group of people (actually, close friends) which allowed me to work from home most of the time. This choice siginificantly reduced my total career earnings from what it would likely have been had I remained on my previous career trajectory. I know that I’m very lucky and most people don’t have this luxury, but it was the best choice I ever made. I still worked hard, but I was enabled to have a very flexible schedule (often working late into the evening when my kids were in bed) with zero lost time commuting so I was able to make it to every athletic event (including practices), music concert, school assembly, doctor appointment, etc. that any of my kids ever had. I worked from home, but I was able to have an open door policy where my kids knew they could come in and talk to me whenever they wanted (as long as I wasn’t in a video call, which gratefully only happened a few times a week). The daughter that I mentioned in my comment above has even since told me that the part of the Family Proclamation that talks about gender roles doesn’t make since to her since from her point of view, I, her father, was the nurturing parent. I am certain that should would not say that if I had been a bishop with much less time to spend with her. (In contrast, I have a son that would definitely say that my wife was the nurturer for him, so I guess my wife and I shared that role. Imagine that–couples figuring out their own roles in marriage/parenting without needing to consult a Church-constructed document to define their roles for them.). She has since told me it was really important to her that she was able to come into my office pretty much every day for several hours after coming home from middle/high school, sports practice, etc., to “do her homework” while what she really just did was talk to me about stuff pretty much the whole time. There were times when I was tempted to tell her that I wasn’t super interested in what she was talking about, I was trying to concentrate on my work, so I wanted her to leave. Luckily, I was smart enough to realize that few parents are privileged to know as much about what their teenagers are thinking and doing as I did about her, so I never sent her away.
Had I been in a time consuming Church calling, I would have missed out on so many experiences with my kids that I cherish today. Men with careers in high profile callings miss out on these experiences. We’re trained from the day we are born that we are to accept any calling that is ever offered to us because the call came directly from God. We are not to turn a calling down because of our personal circumstances–God will provide a way for us to do whatever He asks us to do.
There were several pushes in my wards/stakes while my children were growning up to have men give PPIs (Personal Priesthood Interviews) to their children just like men had PPIs with the elder’s quorum presidency. Sometimes, the leader describing the PPI process went so far as to say that these father-led PPIs should be scheduled ahead of time, should be done in church clothes, should involve fathers asking their children “worthiness” questions just like bishops do for temple recommends, should start and end with a prayer, etc. I was always so incredulous that my local Church leaders would tell fathers to hold these types of PPIs with their own children. I mean, you should be spending time with your kids every. single. day. Just have normal one-on-one conversations with them at natural times for crying out loud. It just felt like local Church leaders suggesting father-child PPIs were so all-in on the Church way of doing things, that the Church model should be followed in individual homes as well. And I’m sure that was part of the thinking. At the time, though, I didn’t realize that another big part of asking fathers to do PPIs was because it was one of the only ways the men in time consuming callings were going to spend actual time with their children in the first place. I guess having a 30 minute PPI is better than spending zero minutes talking with your child?
I’m grateful that I didn’t have to sacrifice all the wonderful memories that I have from raising my children that I would have lost had I been called to be a bishop or some other time consuming Church calling. However, many men in the Church with children are asked to serve in these callings, and they often accept them and miss out on all of this precious family time that they themselves really want to have–and would have if they followed their own understanding of what is best for their, and their families’ lives–because the Church has told them that their service to the Church is more important.
@mountain climber, I know a lot of people who resent that their dads weren’t around growing up because of Church callings.
And really, what you are saying about the demands being placed on men by the Church is directly related to the Church’s doubling-down on women’s need to stay home with the kids … This is why I can’t take this stuff seriously as inspired. It’s completely self-serving to the men & institution asking it of people.
Old Man “So, if the Church wants more babies, perhaps the best thing it could do is subsidize day care? And maybe release younger married men from leadership callings so they can help more at home?”
I firmly believe that Polygamy was primarily about two things: 1) A way to increase the tribe’s population from within. 2) Sex (not a popular opinion among orthodox members). Number one I believe alludes to the Churches present day problems with organic growth. Couples are having fewer children and increasing numbers of young people are leaving. These two things spell big problems for institutional growth.
mountainclimber,
Having male leaders absent from one on one, in the trenches difficult child raising also has the side affect of leaving them with no knowledge whatsoever of how to effectively lead other parents in that situation.
That was when I really woke up. Here I was a middle aged homeschooler, with 5 teen plus children, 3 of them special needs. I had struggled through all kinds of difficult circumstances. To have a young father stand up there in authority over me and tell me how I should think and feel, and what I should do, based on no experience or knowledge of my situation. Really? Really?
My husband and I know for ourselves that the service we give our children is sanctifying, to us way more sanctifying than attending the temple. Leaders can be so clueless. The talks clearly don’t apply to so many people. They ought to acknowledge that and say there are exceptions of course in every talk.
Well-said, Elisa. I never trusted my own wants and needs; I didn’t even know what they were. Getting to know myself as a person in my 40s and 50s has been a real journey, and I wish I’d started it younger. I was very obedient and meek for decades. Hawkgrrl would have disliked me as a mission companion (I read her memoir), because I was sooo obedient. In fact, when I finally went in for a full psych workup, I was barely short of being diagnosed with OCD for following rules. I thought OCD was limited to routines and rituals, but it turns out that I was very close to having Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder with regard to following rules. I just love the speed limit.
I got together with a friend I hadn’t seen in a long time. She got married in her mid-30s. She told her story, and I was struck with how much she searched outside of herself to make the decision about marriage. She’s PIMI (Physically In, Mentally Indifferent) (from Mat’s comment in the PIMO post) (brilliant observation – that’s totally a category). Besides fasting and praying, she also consulted a fortune teller to see what the tarot cards had to say. She wanted a sign. She eventually got a sign, and married him. There was not one word in her story about actually loving her boyfriend and wanting to spend her life with him.
I’m also in the cohort that grew up with ETB telling mothers to stay home. I fully planned on doing that. Then I didn’t get married. I went through law school and got a job, fully expecting to get married soon and stay home with my children. Then it happened! Briefly, anyway. I got married, had children, and divorced. That forced me back into the workforce. Going back to work made everything better – my relationships with my children, my self-image and self-confidence, my children’s relationship with their father, everything. I felt guilty about working, and confused about why working was so much better than following the prophet’s counsel. In hindsight, it was one of the steps away from faithfulness that I made, but it took me a long time to get rid of the guilt.
Elisa, I really loved your point about women wanting children and families even without having a prophet talking about it all the time. There isn’t a reason to keep emphasizing the importance of motherhood other than to put pressure on people. The human race isn’t going to disappear in a generation if religious men just step back and let women decide about childbearing.
toddsmithson, “I firmly believe that Polygamy was primarily about two things: 1) A way to increase the tribe’s population from within”
Actually there is not good evidence that polygamy increased the population and in fact in many cases hampered population growth. Brigham Young had 56 kids with 55 wives. Those wives would have produced more kids had they been in non-polygamous marriages. In my view, polygamy arose from Joseph Smith’s libido (evident from accounts in 1832 when he was tarred and feathered and almost castrated by a mob for propositioning then 16-year-old Nancy Marinda Johnson) which he justified through the stories of the Old Testament. He justified himself as restoring an old practice, although he was reluctant to make the practice widely known among his early followers and practiced it in secret. The tradition was carried on by some followers although not others. Later practice of polygamy after Joseph Smith came as a reward to men for their loyalty. Many modern polygamist groups have “lost boys” who are essentially cast out of the polygamist system to keep the supply of women for older men and because they did not prove their loyalty enough and did something wrong. Polygamy is and was abusive of women’s rights. I’m glad the US government blocked Utah from becoming a state until they gave up polygamy. Of course they only said they would in 1890 but actually continued to practice it secretly. It wasn’t really until they excommunicated Richard Lyman in 1943 for “unlawful cohabitation” that the mainline church fully abandoned the practice.
Janey: “Hawkgrrl would have disliked me as a mission companion (I read her memoir), because I was sooo obedient.” Yeah, probably, although I wasn’t crazy about ‘Tilson’ (fake name) and she was a bit of a rule-breaker, and I adored ‘Banks,’ and she was definitely more scrupulous than I would have liked (we’re still friends). Regardless, I like you plenty now!
And despite my own progressivism, feminism, and charting my own course to some extent, I still ended up with plenty of hangups from being in a conservative religious environment, and I still had that hard time figuring out what I wanted vs. what I was supposed to want. It took a while to grow past that for sure.
@John Charity Spring:
I was a gullible young boy. When my uncle facetiously suggested that five-year-old me steer my sled downhill straight into a telephone pole, that’s exactly what I did. I steered so well I ran directly into the telephone pole with my big old noggin.
It hurt.
I’m glad I didn’t die in a sledding accident, aren’t you?
I served a French-speaking mission in Quebec, Canada. Here’s a fun fact about Canadian French: all the worst curse words are related to the Catholic Church. If you were to say “Mormon Tabernacle Choir” that is the same as saying the f-ing Mormon Choir. Among the worst curse words are sacrament, tabernacle, baptism, chalice, etc.
Why is this the case? These sacred religious words have the worst societal connotation because the Catholic church was so hegemonic and all-encompassing that it essentially controlled every facet of peoples’ lives. It controlled what they read and what they thought. Women were incessantly pressured by the priests to keep delivering babies (6th, 7th, 10th, 14th, etc.) at all costs, even if it killed the mother or severely harmed her health.
Eventually the French-Canadian society at large wholesale rejected everything about organized religion and became a secular society in the extreme. Large, beautiful cathedrals and oratories are empty tourist attractions with few believers engaging in worship and those who do being in their 70s-90s. In large part I think this was due to the overbearing presence of the church infringing on peoples’ autonomy and the younger generation’s backlash towards this meddling. In a lot of ways I feel like the LDS church is unfortunately repeating many of the same coercive practices when it comes to encouraging larger families/earlier motherhood and strict gender roles and undermining women’s careers.
My view is that not only does meddling in the private decisions of family planning and careers of couples seriously harm many individuals within our faith, I also think it is likely to completely backfire from a retention perspective. The church would do much better in trying to promote and create formal church programs (daycare, affordable housing, respite care) or push state-wide or national legislation that dismantle the cost barriers to having children and doing the “joyful juggle” (e.g., affordable childcare).
I served a French-speaking mission in Quebec, Canada. Here’s a fun fact about Canadian French: all the worst curse words are related to the Catholic Church. If you were to say “Mormon Tabernacle Choir” that is the same as saying the f-ing Mormon Choir. Among the worst curse words are sacrament, tabernacle, baptism, chalice, etc.
Why is this the case? These sacred religious words have the worst societal connotation because the Catholic church was so hegemonic and all-encompassing that it essentially controlled every facet of peoples’ lives. It controlled what they read and what they thought. Women were incessantly pressured by the priests to keep delivering babies (6th, 7th, 10th, 14th, etc.) at all costs, even if it killed the mother or severely harmed her health.
Eventually the French-Canadian society at large wholesale rejected everything about organized religion and became a secular society in the extreme. Large, beautiful cathedrals and oratories are empty tourist attractions with few believers engaging in worship and those who do being in their 70s-90s. In large part I think this was due to the overbearing presence of the church infringing on peoples’ autonomy and the younger generation’s backlash towards this meddling. In a lot of ways I feel like the LDS church is unfortunately repeating many of the same coercive practices when it comes to encouraging larger families/earlier motherhood and strict gender roles and undermining women’s careers.
My view is that not only does meddling in the private decisions of family planning and careers of couples seriously harm many individuals within our faith, I also think it is likely to completely backfire from a retention perspective. The church would do much better in trying to promote and create formal church programs (daycare, affordable housing, respite care) or push state-wide or national legislation that dismantle the cost barriers to having children and doing the “joyful juggle” (e.g., affordable childcare).
@rob – It looks like your comment was somehow lost by the system as well (what is going on??), but I appreciated the response. It sounds like I’m just a few years ahead of you, but your situation sounds very similar to mine. My wife has definitely pushed BYU (for every kid) and missions (for sons only) as the only path while I’ve presented the pros and cons of attending various different types of schools (including BYU) and serving missions. It’s been dicey because my wife has absolutely not appreciated my alternate approach with our kids on these choices at all, and she steadfastly continues to push BYU and missions as the only acceptable choice, but we’re getting through it. She was extremely relieved (and I was very disappointed) when my daughter wasn’t accepted to her dream school and chose BYU instead, but I think she’s relaxed a bit since our next son to go off to college chose a state school over BYU and managed to return from his freshman year without having turned into a sex-crazed drug addict. Like I said, my daughter truly did have a good experience at BYU her freshman year. Her mission also seems like it’s going to be a net positive for her as well. I mean, she understands that her efforts are largely a waste of time, and that is kind of frustrating to her, but she’s had some good experiences, and some time to think about life that has been good for her, I think (and, yes, these things could have largely been accomplished in other ways besides a mission, and I made her aware of alternative approaches, but she wanted to do the mission). Fortunately, she still seems to be very much herself as she shares a bunch of her criticisms of the Church and mission culture with us regularly (i.e., she hasn’t turned into a robot). I’m with you, though. I thought I had learned to “enjoy the moment” in my life and to stop wanting my current stage of life to hurry up and be over while idealizing my next stage of life. However, with my daughter, I feel like I’m just holding my breath and wanting her to just finish her mission and be done with BYU as soon as possible, hoping that she stays true to herself and avoids the problems described in the OP. Yeah, I could use an anxiety counselor now as well.
@elisa – Yep, the Church asking men with kids to give up so much time is directly linked to them asking women to stay home. However, every single woman is asked to sacrifice their life goals and dreams by staying at home while only the relatively small percentage of men asked to serve in these time consuming callings has to sacrifice their family life, so women do bear a much higher burden than men do.
@lws – Good point. As a newlywed, I remember hearing about or observing problems that parents were having with their kids and thinking that I would solve the problem so easily if I only was the parent. Yeah, right. After being humbled by raising my own kids, if parents came to me for help if I were in the bishop’s chair, I hope that I’d just listen and cry with them, and if they needed more than that, I’d send them straight to a counselor.
@mark, I see that I remembered your name wrong because your comment disappeared for a bit. In any case, my comment to @rob above was really meant for you.
Brad D – Good catch there. I’m not up to speed on the statistical analysis on the effects of polygamy on population growth. Your point is yet another good argument against polygamy. The first and best argument being, it’s absolutely exploitative towards women.
@Brad D/@toddsmithson, I’ve also read some pretty good analyses of how Mormon polygamy resulted in a significantly lower number of children than it would have had the women involved been in monogamous marriages. However, when confronted with those numbers, which I agree are pretty convincing, what I’ve seen the Mormon polygamy apologists do is to pivot to claim that while polygamy resulted in fewer children, it resulted in more “faithful children” overall.
My understanding is that only a minority of Mormon men practiced polygamy. Those men that did practice polygamy tended to be all-in members of the “Mormon elite”. Some Mormon polygamy apologists will say that the Church actually became stronger with Brigham Young (and other men of the Mormon elite) having 57 children–even though his wives could have had many more children in monogamous marriages–because those 57 children were much more likely to result in more total strong, faithful Church members than the women would have produced had they been married to “less valiant” men in the Church. In other words, yes, the women would have produced more total children in monogamous marriages, but they produced more total all-in, faithful members in their polygamous marriages to men who were part of the Mormon elite.
I have never seen an analysis done of whether this claim might be true, and it seems likely that I haven’t seen it because such an analysis would be very difficult to do. Such an analysis would require attempting to measure the level of faithfulness of these children of polygamous parents, which would seem pretty hard to do because such a measurement would be quite subjective in the first place, and knowing much about some of these childrens’ lives and faith has probably been lost to time anyway.
For the record, I am not attempting to defend polygamy at all. I agree that Joseph almost certainly came up with the idea on his own, and it wasn’t inspired of God. I’m just making you aware that there was once a time where Mormon polygamy apologists loved to point to increased number of Mormon children as a reason for polygamy. Once that idea was debunked, they seem to have moved on to this idea of polygamy producing fewer total children, but a greater number of faithful children, and, while I seriously doubt this theory is true, either, it is probably much more difficult to debunk since the faithfulness of the children of polygamous marriages is difficult to measure.
mountainclimber479, “there was once a time where Mormon polygamy apologists loved to point to increased number of Mormon children as a reason for polygamy”
Absolutely. I think that the early Mormons who practiced polygamy believed the same. They were more rapidly increasing their population through the practice. But the numbers just don’t hold out.
@Brad D, I believe we’re agreeing with each other (that the “more seed” theory for polygamy doesn’t pan out given the actual numbers).
my comment just got eaten by logging in so in summary i’ll say while i am one of the stories a career was taken from and also who suffered traumatically thru our rhetoric w infertility …
Brad D
Mormon polygamy in the great basin kingdom, may have achieved it’s objective. Polygyny maximizes male offspring of elites. The function of women, per D&C 132, is “to bear the souls of men”. Im’a guessin’ this created group cohesion lead by a biologically interrelated hierarchy. I would modify turtles all the way down, to cousins all the way down. A apex of male supremacy floating on a blob of interbreeding. Objective achieved.
I am descended from multiple lines of Mormon nobodies, most too poor for the one wife they had. But I was watching some documentary on Warren Jeffs and I got the biggest laugh when they said his name was Warren Steed Jeffs. Yep, cousins all the way down.
I suspect that’s why Mormon polygamy persisted, male nobodies couldn’t give up their shot at celestial greatness. Not that I am calling Oakes and Nelson nobodies, but the various offshoot polygamy clans (despite what they claim for their founders), were also rans.
And maybe release younger married men from leadership callings so they can help more at home?
They seem to be doing the opposite actually. Our newest bishop is 28 years old and has two small children, with another on the way.
He said that in his new bishop training, they told him to prioritize the youth over all else.
I think the current idea then, is to call increasingly younger and cool guys to be bishops and young men’s leaders so they can hang out with the youth, and that’s their plan to tackle the problem of youth retention…
@anonible agree, they are now calling YM presidents as bishops.
IMO this has absolutely obliterated the YM programs because the bishopric doesn’t have time. It’s such a bizarre set up. Super bad move.
@Hawkgrrl – I look back on my mission now and feel sorry for my companions. I have changed SO much since then. Maybe we would have connected in spite of my rules obsession. In any case, I’m glad to be here now.
about the polygamy discussion — I’ve heard that argument or discussion point that only a minority of people practiced polygamy. But I look at my own family history. Of the original generation to join the Church and live through the fall of Nauvoo, every one of them were in polygamous marriages. Six sons, one daughter. The only siblings that didn’t have polygamous marriages were the ones who died. And even then, the daughter had her sister sealed to her husband posthumously so she could receive the blessings of a polygamous marriage. We see all the horrible stuff now, but my gggg-aunt Susannah thought a polygamous marriage was such a blessing that she wanted her sister as a sister-wife in the eternities. I think Susannah had at least two sister wives (or more) in mortality. Anyway, the Church sent Susannah’s husband on a mission, so we’ve got all her letters. After he got home, she asked for a divorce. A few years later, she remarried him.
I should do some posts about the polygamy stories in my family history.
Fun fact – my supervisor and I are related through polygamy. We have the same gggg-grandfather. I’m descended from the first wife, and he’s descended from the third wife. Only in Utah.
@janey, I have really sad polygamy stories in my family tree. Absolutely broke a great (something) grandmother’s heart. Tbh I think there is generational trauma in the descendants of polygamists.
mountainclimber479:
“The Church’s track record with respect to anything related to family, women, sexuality, LGBTQ, and gender roles over the course of at least the last 50 years is abysmal.”
And yet if the world were to follow the counsel of the Lord’s apostles on marriage and family it would be completely revolutionized. There would be less divorce, less single motherhood, less poverty, less illiteracy, less crime, less teenage pregnancy, less mental illness, less gender dysphoria, etc.
@Jack, I don’t have a problem with:
1. The Church providing support/teachings to help promote healthy, loving, and long-lasting marriages.
2. The Church encouraging two parent families where the parents are married while also welcoming and supporting single parent families (providing substantial support since single parents have to deal with more stuff then married parents).
3. Encouraging young people to develop, mature, and improve themselves before marriage.
4. Encouraging families to provide high quality sexual education for their children.
If the Church stuck to these sorts of values, it wouldn’t be very unique at all. We’d hardly need “prophets, seers, and revelators” to tell us this stuff, as there are many secular and non-secular religions and organizations with similar viewpoints. If society followed these sorts of guidelines, yes, there would be less divorce, single motherhood, etc. The additional, harmful teachings of the Q15 aren’t making things better. In fact, they are often quite harmful. For example:
1. It’s ironic that you would mention the Q15’s guidance bringing less mental illness on this particular post. ETB’s demand that women stay at home drove many women in the Church to depression and other forms of mental illness. Did you actually read this post and take in the anguish expressed by all these women that was caused by these harmful teachings? And, the teachings were obviously wrong in the first place, since Camille Johnson didn’t follow them, and now she’s being put up as a role model. In other words, these women who wanted to do more than stay at home did it all in vain! We now know ETB’s guidance wasn’t inspired at all because it’s no longer taught.
2. It’s also ironic that you’d mention less poverty. Many LDS families have been quite poor because the father was the only breadwinner, and his education/skills made it hard for him to provide for a family. Many families would have been on much more stable financial footing and much happier if the mother had also worked (or sometimes even if the mother had worked *instead* of the father).
3. Back on mental illness, an LGBTQ child being raised in an orthodox Mormon home leads to serious mental illness–sometimes tragically to the point of suicide. This happens all the time.
4. The Q15 taught that people should not use contraception and to have as many kids as possible. 8 kids can also very quickly lead to financial problems and mental illness for overstressed parents.
5. The Q15 haven’t been very vocal at all about encouraging parents to provide their children with accurate (much more than just abstinance) sexual education. As a result, many Mormons in the Mormon Corridor opt out of sex ed and don’t supplement with anything other than possibly teaching abstinence at home. Well, studies have shown that abstinence-only sex ed leads to more teenage pregnancies.
6. So…gender dysphoria. I assume that we’re talking about transgender people here. Jack, people are actually trans. It’s a real thing. Yes, I know the Church has taught that these people are just “confused” and can be changed, but they really can’t. In fact, being told to change your sexual identity when you can’t is only going to amplify a person’s sense of gender dysphoria. How on earth can you possibly say that the Church’s teachings are helping reduce gender dysphoria???
7. What help does the Church provide to LGBTQ individuals at all? I have two people very close to me who had to step away from the Church because they are gay, and I’m furious about this. Holland can tell us all about his cry-fests with the Q15 in the upper room of the temple, but it’s simply not right to treat people like the Church treats LGBTQ people. Almost every single LGBTQ person chooses to leave the Church for their own well-being. How is the Church helping them?
8. Many Mormon couples have marriage issues due to the purity culture they were raised in. They simply can’t enjoy sex with their spouse which can ultimately lead to mental illness and/or divorce.
9. The Church supported and even bragged about its participation in the World Congress on Families which in turn supported terrible laws in many parts of the world, especially in Africa, that would allow gay people to be incarcerated for years. Is that how the Church is making the world a better place?
10. The Church has been caught on numerous occasions hiding and protecting abusers and sexual predators.
I could continue, but I’m going to stop there. The Q15 has caused/is causing so many unnecessary problems for people with these uninspired teachings and policies. It is literally making the world a worse place for many people. The Church’s track record on these types of issues is almost always to *react* to change by making new rules or retrenching to support whatever the traditional thinking was. Reacting to maintain one’s outdated personal biases is not prophesying, seeing, or revelating. More importantly, it’s often not very Christlike behavior.
mountainclimber479,
Forgive me for being rather brusque, but the majority of the examples that you provide are miniscule in terms of real numbers–and some of them don’t take into account the reality of an evolving culture. Now I don’t want to minimize anyone’s suffering–for whatever reason. And I’m in favor of doing all that is within our power to comfort the afflicted. But even so, the suffering that has been caused by the shredding of the family is incalculable. Delinquent parenting and fatherlessness are (IMO) the most serious problems that we face in our country today. And it has affected millions upon millions of people in the ways that I describe in my previous comment–which I culled from the CDC’s findings.
And sadly, some of the prophetic warnings set forth in the proclamation on the family are starting to be fulfilled–especially in the inner cities. I hope that what we’re seeing is nothing more than a trend that can be massaged and guided toward a healthy outcome. And I’d certainly like to believe that the middle of the 20th century was bad enough to fulfill all of the negative prophecies having to do with the latter days. But I have to say that, like Neal A. Maxwell, I’m very worried about the effects that an overwhelming number of broken families and unbridled sex will have on the West.
Jack,
I will get to the mental health problems caused by church teachings another time. However, gender dysphoria is a real condition acknowledged by the church. It doesn’t go away because it’s a physical problem caused by a mismatch in the development of the brain and genitalia. I am not sure how you think there would be less of it if we followed counsel. What particular counsel are you referring to? Before you respond please thoroughly read the church’s LGBT resources for the family put out in 2022.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/inspiration/here-are-lgbt-resources-for-our-church-family?lang=eng
thanks Mountainclimber & LWS … but I’m uninviting jack from opining further on these issues. His comments have little to nothing to do with the post and he’s going to ruin everybody’s Mother’s Day if we have to keep reading them.
Since it is Mother’s Day, I would like to remember the sacrifices of some of the mothers in my life:
1. My mother earned a master’s degree in a health related field just before she had her first child. She stayed home, but when her children were all in school, she decided she really wanted to use her degree to help people. She accepted a job offer, but backed out just before her first day of work so that she could “follow the prophet”.
2. My sister also stayed home to follow the prophet and disliked it to the point of having mental health issues. She eventually decided she needed to be out of the house and found a job as a paralegal at a nonprofit that helps women in need. She’d always wanted to be a lawyer, and started down the path of law school while a full time mother and working as a paralegal, but just found that she didn’t have the time to do all three things, so she’s still a paralegal. She’d probably be lawyer if she hadn’t heeded the prophet’s counsel to “just have faith”, marry early, have kids quickly, and stay at home.
3. My wife chose to earn a master’s degree in a health related field instead of pursuing her dream of becoming a medical doctor because being a doctor just didn’t seem to make much sense to her if she was going to follow the prophet and stay home and raise kids for the first 20 years of our marriage. She still speaks wistfully of how things might have been if she had followed her dreams and gone to medical school.
And now Camille Johnson, who shrugged off prophetic counsel when these three women were following it, is General Relief Society President, and just like that, it’s now totally fine for women in the Church to balance a career with motherhood. Talk about whiplash! That’s a wonderful change, and I am so glad that someone like Sister Johnson is now able to serve in such a capacity, but it doesn’t change the fact that these three womens’–and countless other womens’–sacrifices were all for naught. We now know (but heaven forbid we speak about) how Kimball, Benson, and all the rest were wrong to tell all women that their only acceptable role was to be a housewife. The Church just wants everyone to forget the past and move forward with the new thinking. Well, I want to move forward, too, but I want to move forward in a church that memorializes these unnecessary sacrifices and suffering of women so that we can remember and learn from them and not continue to repeat the same mistakes towards women over and over again. I want to move forward in a church that encourages women to prioritize their own dreams and their own moral compass and their own spirituality over the often flawed counsel of Church leaders. This is what I want for my daughter. May God bless her to be wise and to pursue the path that she feels is best for her while shielding her from the well-meaning, but historically abysmal, counsel of Church leaders for women. I just don’t know if it’s going to play out that way for my daughter–the Church is a powerful force with a terrible track record. I’m scared.
I want to honor my mother today. She always taught me to never resent others in silence or be a martyr, to speak up when I disagree, and that my thoughts mattered. She taught me that I have my own spiritual authority and personal autonomy and to grant that to others as well. She taught me to follow Jesus Christ in how he treated others.
I want to honor my father today as well, for being a good help meet to my mother and setting an example himself for much of what she taught me.
I wrote this comment in the wee hours last night but didn’t hit post because I was reluctant to engage and generate something none here wanted. I guess it’s safe to post it now. Elisa’s got it handled most commendably.
Jack, with your track record here, I feel like asking for something to back up all those unsupported claims. Perhaps citations that show statistical proof of the specific actions advised by such counsel, bringing about the results you allege. But I realize that no such citations exist, and I respect that you believe this because of your indestructible faith alone. That’s fine for you, but my experience aligns with the things mountainclimber refers to as abysmal results [and he has already responded with a plethora of logical support points.] One thing I know surely is the church does not have my back.
Also, a few of us still remember the last time you were relentlessly contrarian on one of Elisa’s posts. I’m one of those, and I still remember her generous patience in engaging you, and your abuse of that in response to her and the rest of those reading or commenting. I also remember that after that post, she took a long break, and I missed her writing. I have no authority here except as a regular reader and occasional commenter, but I’m asking you to knock it off, at least on posts by Elisa.
I hope all who celebrate have a lovely Mother’s Day, and those who don’t simply have a lovely day.
Jack, in his comment about the trials and tribulations of the world, suggested that the best answer to these problem’s was to follow the “Lord’s Apostles” ( I assume he means Mormon Apostles) on their teachings of marriage and sex.
He is right about the world suffering terribly from the breakdown of the family but horribly horribly wrong when he suggests we would all be better off by following Mormon leaders.
Many many people out here in the world are most concerned with the situation of the family and all of the heartbreak it brings.
Mormon Apostles are not the be all end all of ideology as to how we should live our private lives, many times they have been terribly wrong and we, the children of our Heavenly Father, have suffered terribly.
There are so many wonderful, beautiful ways to live our lives, one size does not fit all.
I am in the same place some of the commenters here talk about, I no longer listen to anything these guys say.
Their track record of showing how much they love their fellow man is awful.
These arm of the flesh Mormon leaders do not speak for God or me anymore.
toddsmithson/Brad D/mountain climber
Regardless of retrospective numbers, early adopters of polygamy may have believed the practice would result in more children. Additionally, they may have had the ego that more of their children was beneficial to all.
Another justification for polygamy I’ve heard over the years is that it was a way to care for “excess women”. For starters, census data in both Nauvoo and Utah demonstrate that there were more
men in both locations than women. So – no dice.
For nexters, we couldn’t just find a way to provide for those in need? It had to include sex? There are other, more applicable, terms for that than charity.
Elisa,
May I say one thing before I leave this thread? After reading MDearest’s comment–I want to apologize to you, Elisa, and MDearest and Janey, and anyone else whom I may have hurt at W&T because of my hardheadedness. I always try to be sensitive–but I’m afraid that sometimes when I go to give someone a pat on the back I come across more like a bear taking a swipe at them. Thank you for your patience with me. I’ll try to be kinder as I blunder my way forward in trying to be more like the Savior.
So, I do want to mention mental health while the subject is open. Religion can be used to support mental health or undermine it. However, often people misunderstand and use religion in ways that can be devastating to those who suffer from disabilities, illnesses and other realities of life.
For instance : it doesn’t help the mental health of a child born with defects that must have regular surgeries and hospitalizations, to say keep the commandments and everything will be alright. When he came to me with that magical phrase, I said, sure, everything will be alright but you still might die in surgery or in a car wreck, but you remain in God’s hands. There’s no magical protection physically. But you can always feel good about treating others in a Christ like way today, no matter what happens tomorrow.
Or there’s the young man with scrupulosity obsessive compulsive disorder in my ward. Our ward is huge. We fill it up to the back of the gymnasium. He hates to bear his testimony. But every fast Sunday he spends the whole meeting with his heart beating hard, feeling he is unworthy because he didn’t bear his testimony. He can’t go to the temple because when Satan addresses the temple congregation directly and claims we will be in his power if we take a misstep, he shakes in fear and cannot stop shaking the rest of the day. I ask you, when the stake president visits and tells us we have to visit the temple every month to be worthy, is he supporting mental health in this young man?
No. He isn’t . My disabled son says to me “Is that true, we have to go to the temple every month?” I immediately said “No. And he shouldn’t say that. Many people only get to go to the temple once in their lives because of their physical situation, and that’s plenty. Or their work can even be done after death.”
We each are experiencing church in a different way. Pressure from authority to do things a certain way, and shaming for failing to do it that way, is devastating for people with disabilities that prevent them from checking those boxes like everyone else. It doesn’t help their mental health. In fact, I would call it unrighteous dominion when we make the assumption everyone is in the same situation, and order them to do what seems perfectly reasonable to us, no exceptions.
Church shouldn’t be about controlling the congregation with guilt to provide bishops, stake and mission presidents with great attendance stats for sacrament meeting and temple attendance, or numbers of investigators taught. It should be about an uplifting positive experience to connect us with God as individuals (not as families because we can only control ourselves, not our families, and telling us not to leave any empty seats at the table in heaven causes mental health problems as well).
For people who take church counsel literally, church can be a mental health minefield. It’s actually far better for mental health to see the world as it actually is, and accept our individual situations, rather than letting someone in authority tell you what you should think or do. The cognitive mismatch is just too heavy to bear and can cause depression and shame in literal thinkers that try so hard and continue to feel unworthy.
lws
That is good for us all to understand. I saw something along those lines happen.
When my neighbor was close to 8, he had primary lessons which included:
When he is baptized he will be cleansed from sin.
When he is resurrected his body will be perfect.
He had used a wheelchair for most of his life. He also got physical therapy and practiced walking with braces and crutches. The teacher (a kind lady) told the class that after he is resurrected, this boy will be able to walk and wouldn’t need the wheelchair, braces or crutches.
The little boy conflated the two teachings, and was convinced that after he was baptized he would be able to walk.
His parents picked up on it before the baptism, and helped him understand.
Ow.
lsw329,
No, Sister Johnson did NOT simply omit the part of the story where she followed personal revelation and prioritized it above prophetic council. She actually told the women that she was following the prophet and by doing so following God. She, like all the other GAs, was sure to praise RMN and his “sweet words” and encouraged the sisters to likewise follow the prophet as she has done. However everyone knew that she did not follow Benson or Kimball. So, once again- we had literal gaslighting from this presidency. As a hot shot attorney- I would have expected a spin to have been smoother and more successful. The women didn’t fall for it. Maybe it’s because of what Mark Twain once said- you cannot pray a lie.
I’m willing to bet Camille Johnson came from an upper middle class or upper class family. They were probably church leadership. I suspect she may not have experienced the crippling guilt about being a corporate working mom in the 80’s because she belongs to a class that doesn’t have to follow the rules. And, as a wealthy woman- she may have always been highly regarded and placed in leadership roles- validating her as a righteous woman, feeding her confidence with affirmations from church leadership to stoke a positive ego. She probably has so much confidence that she can even call others to repentance. Let’s be serious here- the top providers in stakes are catered to and praised, not reprimanded. That would be biting the hand that feeds you.
I’ve had sister missionary companions from the upper echelons of society and church leadership families. I noticed that they didn’t blink an eye at sending their daughters to Ivy League universities, encouraging them to become doctors or lawyers or mommies, or whatever THEY wanted to be – because they can. It’s the privilege of their status and class. They also have no qualms about becoming doctors then staying home with children if they change their minds, because for them- it’s not about the money, but personal choice.
Think about the rich families in the movie “meet the Fockers”, Pam Byrnes and her sister. Also think about the Owen Wilson character, Kevin. These country club families could afford all the expensive hobbies and highly enriched lifestyles. The real life LDS “Byrnes” and “Kevin” families similarly live charmed lives. When they get patriarchal blessings, I suspect that they are blessed to continue on in their lifestyles and privilege- and simply urged to serve others commensurate with their “given much” status. They aren’t discouraged from being our poster-saints.
As an example, Elder Oakes’ daughter, Jenny Baker Oakes, was encouraged to go to Juilliard and become a solo violinist. She obviously had talent, but she also studied with the finest teachers, played the best instruments, and doors of opportunity opened to her. Has she lived a life of guilt? I doubt it. Why should she feel the pangs of guilt from a bishop or SP or fellow RS sister when her dad, Elder Oakes, had been blessing her each step of the way? Hardly! She’s been living her best musical life, is frequently on the Lds.org website as a model saint, sells her CDs through Deseret book, and travels the world. I bet she wouldn’t trade it for anything. And their family continues to be alphas in the world – Supreme Court Judges, world class musicians, rich, etc. Messages to the rank and file don’t apply to the privileged.
For the rest of the faithful
LDS women who lived through the women’s movement and ‘80’s, they either HAD to work because they were poor or middle class and felt guilt about it, or they didn’t work and made massive sacrifices such as living on a single salary and not being able to pay for violin or piano lessons. The cycle is insidious.
Meanwhile, nearly every other lds mom I know from my mother’s generation and my own- is racked with guilt and self-doubt. Most don’t have big callings, likely because they are poor or middle class, but the self doubt and guilt about their working status doesn’t help. And so they remain outside leadership (in a church that worships leadership) watching either privileged lawyers like Johnson, or rich SAHM of corporate husbands rise to power and instruct them not often on grace- but works and self improvement and all the rules or things they should be doing, while singing the praises of the leaders- their class.
The thing is- aside from escaping most, if not all of the mommy guilt the church shovels out, our upper class women truly have personal spiritual confidence that they are on track for the celestial kingdom, more so than the guilt-ridden, self-flaggelating, self-doubting middle class working moms of the ‘80’s, ‘90’s or even present day.
Camille Johnson has received her second endowment and been forgiven of all sins and guaranteed entry into the celestial kingdom. You and I have not. She doesn’t feel a smidgeon of guilt about her life and believes whatever she did was obviously the better way and blessed by the prophet of god because her calling and election is assured – she can prove it.
Sorry to say, but this isn’t a simple doctrinal issue. Sisters and saints can go around it for hours- debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, and it doesn’t matter one iota. This is a social class issue. Period. Furthermore it is evil to create a system that instills confidence and spiritual self-actualization for the rich and self-doubt and guilt for the poor. I don’t think the Savior- the social justice zealot and champion of the poor and the underdogs- ever wanted a structure that undermined the lower classes and blessed the top. His beatitudes confirm this.
Maybe we should do what Brother Joseph said and “teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves”. Maybe simply saying- “serve god and your fellow man and treasure and serve your families.” is all that we should say, all that should ever have been said.
Mortimer,
“Sorry to say, but this isn’t a simple doctrinal issue.”
“This is a social class issue. Period. “
Wow. I sincerely thank you for putting into words what I felt was the root of a lot of feelings/thoughts I have had about this topic.
@Mortimer – that comment deserves its own post!!! Super insightful. For real, will you post about it?
It reminds me when I saw someone I was in the MTC with, who was an apostle’s grand-daughter, drinking a caffeinated soda! Suddenly I was like whoa – I guess I can do that now too. But until then, without personal access to a high-up Church leader to I guess clarify that little rule for me, I didn’t have the privilege of partaking. (I’m actually mostly serious about that.)
I understand the praise for Mortimer’s input. But I also think the following from lws329 is worthy of note:
<i>”Church shouldn’t be about controlling the congregation with guilt to provide bishops, stake and mission presidents with great attendance stats for sacrament meeting and temple attendance, or numbers of investigators taught. It should be about an uplifting positive experience to connect us with God as individuals…”</i>
Mortimer: “Furthermore it is evil to create a system that instills confidence and spiritual self-actualization for the rich and self-doubt and guilt for the poor.” Excellent insight. I have previously shared the story about the time when I (and the current UVU president and another sister) shared our own “Camille Nelson” stories of privilege, as you describe (I’m far from Mormon royalty, but at least in my case, my career choices worked out well and therefore I was treated with respect as a business executive at a Fortune 50 company), and the bishop’s wife tearfully said she didn’t know she was allowed to ask for anything contrary to what the brethren said. She looked miserable.
Well, I would add to that story another one, same exact people, same ward RS, but this time a lesson on tithing. The teacher said that because everyone pays 10%, it’s totally fair and shows that God is no respecter of persons. This idea is wholly false and harmful, which I immediately explained. Tithing is a regressive tax because the poor don’t have disposable income like the wealthy do. This woman was again very tearful; their family was a single breadwinner household, living in what was at the time the most expensive city in the world, in a ward where they probably made less money than 90% of the congregation (everyone else was there on an expat salary, and they are often quite lucrative). I didn’t make her burden lighter by pointing it out, but people (like the teacher) telling the poor that everyone is treated equally when these sacrifices exact completely different results is definitely adding to the burden. I’m not really aware of what her actual financial situation was, other than things she said. Based on things she said it was not on par with what the expats had.
One size fits all is not something Jesus taught.
I’m adding my kudos to Mortimer’s comment. You explained it very well!
Additional thought on how the LDS Church could support families, is to support legislation on economic policies that benefit the worker. Since ~1980, policies have been incrementally passed that shift wealth upward.
The difference I observe now in comparison to when I was in high school is large. One easy-to-grasp result is that in the decades prior to 1980, top corporate compensation was 30-40 times what the average salaried employee was paid. I think most of us would find such pay to be plenty lavish.
For a number of years, top corporate pay has risen to 300-400% what the average employee is paid.
Tax cuts that prioritize corporations over the laborer add to this pay discrepancy.
The 1939 Melchizedek Priesthood manual taught that a working person’s labor is their capital. Its place in time (coming out of the Great Depression, in large part thanks to FDR’s New Deal policies.) is not a coincidence.
Such policies are a large part of why 2 incomes now are needed to support a family.
Perhaps the corporate church prefers the preferential policies?
Thank you Elisa and others for this insightful conversation. I have been a corporate attorney specializing in M&A at big law firms for over a decade now and respectfully, if you prioritize your family early in your career over your clients you will very likely not be given work and will eventually be frozen out or fired. It’s not something you can squeeze in after scripture study and school drop offs.
No one cares that you have to miss your six year olds birthday party because of a closing. And partners have been known to track down associates in labor at the hospital to call them about a document for a filing deadline because they can’t bother reading their emails.
For those women who do put up with this nonsense to succeed in their career under impossible circumstances whether because they want to or have to are judged even more harshly. Keep your eyes on the prize and ignore the haters.