For those long time readers or Wheat & Tares, you may remember that I wrote a post 6 years ago called “God is a Time Traveler“, where I asked if God was governed by our time, and if His today is our today, or is He outside of time, and yesterday, today and tomorrow is present to Him simultaneously. We can’t always be so serious here at Wheat & Tares, so let’s delve into if God travels in time.
First let’s look at what time travel may look like. Since we have no knowledge if anybody traveling in time, lets use science fiction books and movies to define three different types of time travel. The below definitions are taken from the Temporal Anomalies in Time Travel Movies web site.
- Fixed Time theory is the idea that you cannot change the past because the past is immutable. Thus even if it were possible to travel to the past, you could not change anything. It is also inherent in fixed time that the future is equally determined. It is, after all, the past for any point in the yet further future. The very concept that you can travel to the past or the future means that all of history already exists, like a movie in which we are characters moving through the frames but someone outside the film can choose what scenes to watch next. It is thus inherent to the theory that choice is an illusion and future is fated. Time is not a medium within which the world forms and changes, but a path along which we move to experience what already is. Many fixed time stories play on this theme. Some films that use this theory are 12 Monkeys, Kate and Leopold, and The Final Countdown.
- The next is Multiple Dimensions Theory. This theory postulates that there are multiple universes (The multiverse), and when you make a decision, such as “do I continue reading Bishop Bill’s stupid post or stop right now; the universe splits, with one part where you decide to finish the post, and regret you’ll never get this time back, and another universe where you stopped reading and did something productive”. So when you travel back in time, and alter the past, the universe splits, and there is a new path in the altered universe, plus the unaltered one from which you left to go back in time. Examples include Back to the Future Part II, Source Code, and Synchronicity.
- The last is Replacement Theory. This holds that you can go back in time and change things, thus erasing the original timeline going forward. The time traveler departing from the future arrives in the past and alters that original history, in essence erasing it and replacing it with a new version. In so doing, he also undoes his own existence in the original history. This seems to be the most popular theory used in SciFi movies today. Back to the Future part 1 and 3, all the Terminator movies, and Frequency are just a few of the movies that use this.
Now none of the movies keeps strictly to one theory or another, and sometimes they drift between them. But which theory is the “One True Time Travel”? In Mormon theology, it would have to be number one above, the fixed time theory. There is plenty of scripture to back this up.
1 Nephi 9:6– “But the Lord knoweth all things from the beginning; wherefore, he prepareth a way to accomplish all his works among the children of men; for behold, he hath all power unto the fulfilling of all his words. And thus it is. Amen.”
Ether 3:25– “And when the Lord had said these words, he showed unto the brother of Jared all the inhabitants of the earth which had been, and also all that would be; and he withheld them not from his sight, even unto the ends of the earth.”
D&C 38:1-2– “Thus saith the Lord your God, even Jesus Christ, the Great I AM, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the same which looked upon the wide expanse of eternity, and all the seraphic hosts of heaven, before the world was made; The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes;”
D&C 130:6-7– “The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth; But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.”
It is very clear here that God sees the past, present and future at the same time. So it must of already happened, and cannot be changed. This is exactly the “fixed time” theory, and thus the only true time travel you should believe in. This of course poses a problem of free will, since “It is thus inherent to the theory that choice is an illusion and future is fated”. Yet Nephi’s vision in 1 Nephi 13 is very specific: Columbus must discover America, he has no choice, the wise men must form a new country and will be free from the bondage of the mother country. Sounds like time is fixed.
But maybe the Multiverse could be used to explain the worlds without end? Lucifer in the Garden says he is only doing what has been done in other worlds. What worlds? The multiverse! Thousands of worlds!
D&C 76: 23-24 For we saw him [Jesus Christ], even on the right hand of God; and we heard [a] voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father — that by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.
In 1996 then Elder Russell Nelson said in General Conference that there were “infinite worlds”. The footnote to that comment references Moses 1:33 that says “And worlds without number have I created”. This sounds a lot like a multiverse. One difference is that most of the speculation about a multiverse is that all these different worlds are similar or exactly the same as our current world. I believe that the Nelson and the Moses/D&C verses quoted above are referencing worlds are are completely different from ours, except that God and Jesus were the same, and maybe Lucifer from the temple quote, as he was there watching or tempting.
What are your thoughts? Which time theory do you believe is the true one?
What about infinite worlds? Are there many?
Did Lucifer tempt an Adam and Eve in “other worlds”?
Wheat & Tares 
Some of my favourite authors use time travel and or multiverse: Jodi Taylor (time travelling historians who are meant only to observe, but things go wrong), Jasper Fforde (Thursday Next’s father travels in time), Diana Wynne-Jones (Chrestomanci worlds) for example ( I really enjoy humour in my science fiction/ fantasy).
If we’re going full on speculation here, why confine things to mortality, is there a universe in which Lucifer doesn’t oppose the plan premortally?
If there’s a multiverse perhaps we are playing out all possible learning experiences simultaneously, and will become integrated beings at the end?
I know this is kind of an in-jest post – but just to note, this seems to be a limited/finite view of a potentially infinite question/perspective. E.g., if we are talking about option one, “It is thus inherent to the theory that choice is an illusion and future is fated”: this seems to presume a single timeline as immutable. But why would we have to accept that there is only one timeline present to God? If he truly were infinite, like we profess to believe, why couldn’t every single timeline possible be present before him? All strands of time-possibilities based on what choices we make? And that, coupled with a perfect knowledge of each of us, to know what choices we do/will make? Or alternatively, seeing all the infinite possibilities of choices we can make, together with a knowledge of what choice we do make if all things are present to Him (and Her)?
I suppose that begs the question – even in that scenario, the infinite possibilities of choices would still be reduced to knowing the choices we do make. And if that is the case, and He/She knows our chosen path, does that reduce down to the original postulate that choice is an illusion? I don’t see why that would be the case. It’s not that we’re stuck in a path that is fated; it’s that God knows the path we’ll choose, even if we don’t yet. Can we still have choice and yet have God know already the eventual path we have chosen to take? I don’t see why not. And I don’t think that means we suddenly don’t have choice. If anything, I would think that would make God more astounding in His/Her choice to still love us, even knowing already (according to this theory) what choices we will make and the outcomes of it. To your examples, it’s not that “Columbus must discover America, he has no choice, the wise men must form a new country and will be free from the bondage of the mother country”: it’s that of all the infinite possibilities, God sees that Columbus makes the choice that results in discovering America (I’m pretty sure you said this tongue-in-cheek too, but just to run with your example). God sees that there are other options where Columbus makes another choice, and how that would play out, but that there is a choice that is actually made.
My theory would seem to be a hybrid of your first two – God knows the end from the beginning, but along the way there are infinite possible divergences; it’s just that God knows already which one we choose. My tweak would be that all the infinite alternatives don’t truly exist; they’re more like different options that theoretically play out/are before God, but only one where we actually take action in our own lives. Kind of like Dr. Strange mapping out the alternatives with the time stone?
All that said, I guess that leads me to answer that to me, the multiple worlds would be in this physical/temporal space, not multiple multidimensional worlds for just our world.
But to me, this is one of those questions where we try, with our currently finite minds/perspective, to grasp or comprehend something that is infinite in nature. Perhaps it just can’t be done in our present plane of thinking/existing. To me, that would explain why people who said they had visionary experiences had to be transfigured to experience it – Peter/James/John on the mount; Paul; brother of Jared; Lehi and Nephi with their “throne theophanies”; Joseph and Sidney; etc. But I guess I am now going beyond the prompt. Happy sunday!
I suppose the multiverse can explain all the great mysteries:
Why do some people pray to know if the LDS church is “true” and get an answer that it is and some get an answer that it isn’t? In some version of the multiverse it is and some it isn’t, so God’s answer just depends on which version you are in!
In some versions of the multiverse, the BoM was written by a man in the 19th century in upstate New York, in others in ancient times in upstate New York, in others in Central America, and in others in Malaysia!
And God is like Dr. Strange, who has lived through all of them, (it takes an exhausting eternity to that) so he can still say He knows the past, present, and future so there is no contradiction!
It all makes sense now!
Okay, really I have no idea. But one of my favorite movies is About Time, where closets can be used as time machines by men in a certain family, but the protagonist finally comes to the money quote realization:
“I just try to live ever day as if I’ve deliberately come back to this one day, to enjoy it, as if it was the full final day of extraordinary, ordinary life.”
The problem with all of these theories is that Time will not allow itself to be changed. It will bend itself back into the shape it was before. We cannot choose the time we live in, all we can do is choose what to do with the time we are given.
JCS, some of the SciFi books on times travel take that exact position, time cannot be changed. Every time the traveler to the past tries to change something, “time” pushes back. In one book, even the thought of changing something gave the person a debilitating headache to the point of destruction if they didn’t change their thoughts.
we can’t go back in time because that would violate the second law of thermodynamics, which states that conditions go from a state of low entropy to a state of high entropy. As we move through space time, entropy increases.
So, it comes down to whether we choose the DC cosmology or the D&C cosmology. (grin)
It is a multiversal truth that feasibility, means and method of time travel is entirely dependent on plot.
As to what’s going on between Eve and Lucifer, what’s the story you’re telling? As for Eve, haven’t watched it, but isn’t she with Maze?
Perhaps time is like Doctor Who–wibbly wobbly but with fixed points and multiple actors.
If people or gods or even objects can move through time than where are they? Hitler’s still Hitler, no temporal wars or inept observers. As far as I can tell, time is the same for everyone. Except for protons and future astronauts, and me stuck watching an episode of Lucifer.
A multiverse that splits with every discussion could mean that a new version of me keeps getting created. And not just with my decisions. Every time you make a decision, you make a new version of me. Are we all still children of God?
As for reconciling the all possible decisions idea, perhaps there’s some sort of Feynman-like summing over all paths probabilistically. If there’s a universe where I’m an axe murderer, and one where I’m a saint, no single judgement can make sense. But maybe by summing probabilistically it can work? Residually we’re going to need calculus here to deal with all the infinities.
The Moses scripture “And worlds without number have I created.” might also be referring to other worlds where arithmetic and mathematics don’t even exist?
Just kidding.
No real comment is coming out of me today, but it’s a win anytime both Feynman and the movie “About Time” are referenced in the comments. And if you haven’t watched About Time, anytime is a good time for it, but sooner better than later.
<i>If there’s a universe where I’m an axe murderer, and one where I’m a saint, no single judgement can make sense. But maybe by summing probabilistically it can work? </i>
If you expect a celestial kingdom, it will not “work”. You might say that it could still work if I repent in the universe where I’m an axe murderer, but if that universe exists, then so does the universe in which I am an axe murderer but don’t repent. That’s as far down the rabbit hole as I go in my first comment.
The scriptures speak of different reckonings of time existing within the sacred cosmos. And, of course, that might include different reckonings of space as well–though I’d have a hard time imagining exactly what that would look like. Even so, it seems (to me) that if God is at the center of his creations — whatever that really looks like — that time becomes more compressed the further out we move from the center–kinda like standing at the north pole vs the equator. At the pole we move very slowly–it take hours to move a few inches in a counter clockwise spin. Whereas at the equator we’d be moving at about a thousand MPH to keep up with the rate of spin at the pole.
And so, for example, when the Savior appears at the meridian of time he is centering his salvific act of atonement — which he performs in a sacred space at or near the center of the sacred cosmos where the reckoning of time is much slower — thus allowing his “day” of suffering to cover the entire history of the fallen family of Adam–which lies on the outer rim of creation where it takes untold thousands of years to keep up with the rate of time near the center.
Goofy–I know–but fun.
It seems that the Mormon insistence on an embodied God necessarily leads to Fixed Time Theory. After all, if all things are present before God, which implies an existence somehow outside of time and space, then having a body which presumably would move within space and time, makes no sense. However, if everything has already happened, in a sense, and God is sort of standing there at the end of it looking back, then having a body would be workable. For this reason, I was sort of a soft determinist for awhile. It let God off the hook in terms of free-will (you chose all your actions, he’s just seeing it all) and let him have a body (as a typical believer, God being a man with a trad-masculine body was for some reason, important).
Now that I have let go of insistence on an embodied, gendered God, I tend to lean toward an open-relational/process conception of God, where everything is sort of unfolding before God in real time and the future is almost entirely unknown. I suppose time travel theories 2 and 3 could still exist in this cosmology, but I haven’t thought about it too much, though.
As a side note, the scene in “Spaceballs” where Lord Helmet and his henchmen are watching the VHS tape of the movie in real time, to me, brilliantly demonstrates fixed time theory. “When will THEN be NOW?”( I tried to link the scene below, but I’m old as so is my phone).
*ok, I guess it worked. 😉
I sometimes imagine God as a being that doesn’t exist yet, but will in the far future. Imagine a hyper intelligent being, approaching the heat death of the universe. They conceive of some method to survive loss of entropy and truly live forever, but they’re not going to make it in time. They began to reach back through time, nudging the universe and it’s inhabitants in whatever ways they can, trying to bring themselves into being earlier and earlier in the timeline of the universe, until they have time to do whatever it is they’re gonna do.
Obviously not a serious idea. I’m pretty agnostic. But if someone wrote a SciFi with that idea I’d prob read it!
Charles,
In The Physics of Immortality (nonfiction), Frank Tipler came very close to describing the God you describe in your comment. But because Tipler was writing at a time when a future Big Crunch was still a viable hypothesis, his God doesn’t come into existence to ward off the ice but to control the fire. Now that we know the mass of the Higgs boson (far less than he expected), the Big Crunch, and with it Tipler’s future God, are no longer viable ideas.
I believe a Hari Seldon model of God’s omniscience is best. He is the central character from Issac Azimov’s Foundation series who creates a mathematical model of human history and projects the model forward to predict the future at a broad scale. His followers use his model to guide humanity’s course to a positive future outcome , with some mind control shenanigans to fix things when history goes off course cuz random things just happen (you have to pity the Mule at least a little bit)
So similarly, assuming there is a benevolent god, he knows the future of humanity in broad strokes but not the details. Any intervention, be it through angels, prophets, weather control, or whatever, is done sparingly to help keep things on course.
In essence, Gods omniscience is based on science and math and a full understanding of life and human behavior, not some metaphysical, out of time existence. We’ll leave that status to the photons.
Mat brings up an important point; that Mormon theology insists on God and Jesus as physical, tangible, distinct beings. I find this to be not only problematic for theoretical time travel and other manifestations of omnipotence, but also unnecessarily limiting and lacking in imagination. For a supposedly all-powerful God to have a physical humanoid body (complete with a fully-functional set of reproductive organs) made of matter that occupies space somewhere in this universe…well, that doesn’t comport with the purported ability to move freely through time and space, hear all sincere pleadings from us mortals, and occasionally intervene in the happenings on earth (though very selectively). If the Church taught that the true nature of God was actually more like a non-corporeal energy-based life form, or even more of an abstract concept than an actual person, that would make a lot more sense to me, and would be much easier to rationalize all the superpowers. Though it still leaves me wondering what compelled Him to establish an arbitrary judicial framework that demands the torture and death of His oldest son in order to offer highly conditional redemption for the rest of us?
@Charles: You essentially described the 1956 short story “The Last Question” by Isaac Asimov.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Question
I believe some verses of Scripture are hyperbolic poetry rather than complete absolute truth. I have come to be a presentist which I believe is a type A theory of time where the only thing that is real is the present. The past is completely gone and one can never get back to it. And the future is wide open anticipation that is never completely actual. God may well know the past, and may well predict the future to a high level, but the only reality is the present.
What I love about Mormon theology is that it gives us a vision into the infinities. All of these things you bring up are an approximation to reality in some way. The totality of reality of things are very complicated.
I have come to believe that, in these infinities of time and space, there might also be infinities of dimension. Which mean our existence is in the highest order of infinity. God(s) exists in this infinite universe to fill it with light and life. An infinite amount.
To that add an infinity of types of life.
Add to this the heretical idea that even God(s) cannot predict the future or direct things in this chaos. So God(s) work with chaos to bring an infinite kinds of beings into existence. God(s) is a Darwinist because They made this world in Darwin’s image. It is by the chaos of the survival of species that an infinite number of types of life are generated. (The idea that God knows the end from the beginning is just an approximation.)
Multiple worlds is a myth started by the oddity of Schrodinger’s cat, which can exist alive and dead until its quantum state is determined. In which case, the cat resolves. I assert that gravity is the great observer which resolves all macroscopic quantum states into firm reality. Gravity is a God.
Our “purpose” is to help God(s) to fill the vast infinities of existence with light and life. And God has an infinite number of g^n grand children.
Add to the previous comment: This life is important. We are seeds. This is the incubator. In Mormon theology this life stands in opposition to eternity. Here life is finite and precious, there infinite and easy to discount. Here we understand what real pleasure and pain are so we can experience the depths of emotion and pleasure in infinities. Without this birthing we would know none of it and our existence would flatten. Infinite ennui.