There was an interesting discussion on ex-Mormon Reddit a few weeks ago about the frustration some people were feeling when their church-going family members seemed to be incapable of talking about anything other than the Church. No matter the topic, these individuals would find a way to make it all about the Church.
I left 43 years ago and every time I am around them, I just sit quietly while they talk about literally nothing else. Their whole life and culture is “the church”. They have no other interests. Everything that happens in the world is compared to how that is affected by, or affects, “the church.”
- War in Israel? “That fulfills prophesy.”
- Olympic Games on TV? “You know, so-and-so on the Olympic team is a Mormon.”
- Presidential election this year? “Remember that Joseph Smith ran for president.”
- Church losing members? “This must be the last days. Revelations predicted many will follow false gods in the last days.”
- Visiting Las Vegas? “You know that Las Vegas was founded by Mormon pioneers, right?”
- Your wife had a miscarriage? “That baby didn’t need to come to earth because it was already perfect in the pre-existence.”
- Grandma died in a car accident? “Well, we’ll see her in the next life.”
- Going on vacation to France? “You know prophet John Taylor went on a mission there?”
- Had your appendix out? “Let me give you a blessing.”
- A tsunami killed 275,000 people in Asia? “That was part of God’s plan because, after that, that country finally let the missionaries into their country.”
Mormons who stay are not intellectually curious and have no interest in learning about, hearing about or talking about any thing, person or experience that isn’t directly related to Mormonism.
Reddit commenter
I certainly don’t think it’s true to that Mormons are incapable of having a conversation that is intellectually curious or that is about anything other than their Mormon worldview, but that doesn’t mean I haven’t encountered people like this commenter describes. On more than one occasion, I’ve encountered someone whose entire worldview was consumed by something that is not a shared interest or shared belief, and these conversations always sound like this. Often, it’s been one of my kids when they were in early adolescence, suddenly enthralled by some new interest like a video game or musical artist, and their ability to drag every conversation back to their object of interest was truly astounding.
And of course, it’s entirely possible for this conversation to have an ex-Mormon or anti-Mormon version, in which a person constantly inserts negative information about the church into every conversation. That doesn’t seem to be as common, but I am sure it’s possible.
Consider an alternate version of the above comment, but instead talking to someone who is really into Astrology (which I am not, so don’t take these as accurate, just approximate).
- Presidential election this year? “Did you know Donald Trump is a Gemini? Expect him to do half the job really well and ignore the other half.”
- Your wife had a miscarriage? “Well, the moon was in retrograde that day. Lots of medical issues when that happens.”
- Going on vacation to France? “That’s just like an Aries!”
- Had your appendix out? “You should wait until May to do that when the planets are aligned.”
Or conversely, talking with someone who is big into conspiracy theories:
- War in Israel? “I heard that Egypt is secretly funding Hamas to keep the Gazans from immigrating.”
- Grandma died in a car accident? “They probably marked her as a Covid death.”
- A tsunami killed 275,000 people in Asia? “That’s what the [insert Asian country] government wants you to think, but they had to cover up the human rights abuses to explain all the deaths.”
If I wanted to, I could certainly be tiresome like this with my own Jane Austen rabbit hole, or Star Trek, or any other idiosyncratic interest. Politics and religion are two common examples, but I have encountered the Mormon conspiracy theory gabfests before, and they sounded kind of like this.
In Frank Oz’s book The Wizard of Oz, the citizens of Oz, the capital city, must don green tinted glasses when they enter the city, and so everything they see in the city is a shade of green. But this is just because they are seeing everything through green lenses. If they didn’t wear the glasses, they would see things as they really are. Because they all wear the glasses, the shared illusion is preserved. So what do you do if you are not wearing the green glasses, but the person talking to you is seeing everything in green? Here’s a list of suggestions from ChatGPT:
- Steer the Conversation. Shift toward more neutral topics: shared interests, recent events, or positive experiences.
- Express Openness to Different Perspectives. Ask how they came to that conclusion and express that it’s an interesting perspective without agreeing. Show them that you are interested, even if you are unpersuaded.
- Set Boundaries. Comment that you find this topic too controversial or divisive and suggest talking about something else.
- Change the Subject Lightly. Share a personal anecdote or ask a question about something unrelated that can shift the conversation.
- Use Humor. Poke fun at stereotypes or illogical conclusions, but do so in a lighthearted manner that will make the person feel comfortable and not attacked. If they can join in the laughter, they can let it go.
- Find Common Ground. Glom onto any shared interests or worldviews. In my experience, when I’ve encountered the breathless conspiracy theorist discussions, they are having a lot of fun and I’m the odd one out for calling out the misinformation. Is there an element to the conspiracy theory or behind it that is a shared view (e.g. questioning the official narrative, etc.) that you can talk about?
- Redirect the Conversation. Ask about the person’s other interests, plans for the future, or other experiences that are not related to the non-shared worldview.
- Disengage if Necessary. You can avoid talking to them or just walk away.
- Establish Group Guidelines. Suggest that everyone in the group avoid controversial or divisive topics, but bear in mind that to some you might be seen as attacking their identity, or they may not be ready to have discussions that aren’t about the green-tinted world they see.
Bringing every conversation back to Church kind of reminds me of being with someone who is playing Pokemon Go talking with someone who is not playing the game. The game creates an alternate world (using GPS) that is on top of the same world we all live in. The player sees that there is a pokemon right next to you, waiting to be caught, but in the real world, there is nothing there. The two are not experiencing the same realities, and the non-player is not interested in this Pokemon Go world (or they would launch the app and play the game). Bringing it up with them is pointless. It’s not a two-way conversation.
A religious example of this is bringing up Satan with a non-believer to explain human afflictions or life’s challenges. As one of my high school friends put it, “I don’t know if I believe in God, but I sure as hell don’t believe in Satan.”
- Have you encountered these types of conversations with church members (or with other interests)?
- How have you dealt with these encounters?
Discuss.
Wheat & Tares 
Only being able to talk about Church related stuff describes a lot of my family. I usually try to steer the conversation to something else, with mixed success.
I’ll never forget running into a guy who used to be in my ward. We both have kids of similar age who have travelled overseas for high school trips. His daughter had just returned from France. I asked him about it. Did she have a great experience? How was Paris, etc. ?
Did he comment on the museums? Did he comment on the architecture? Did he comment on the cafes? Nope nope and nope. He told me that the highlight of her trip was making a side trip to the Paris temple. And this is a girl from Utah where even 10 years ago there’s a temple around every corner. I was disappointed to say the least and that was when I was full TBM mode High Counselor. Your highlight of Paris was the Mormon temple? I must have looked shocked.
I have had the same experience as Zwingli when it comes to trying to change the subject with intense Mormons, it doesn’t work very well at all.
I am not sure why, are they so indoctrinated as to what to think, say and do they can not handle any non-Mormon intrusion into their lives even if it is just conversation?
They do not seem to even begin to understand that there is a great big world outside of their viewpoint.
I was a bit the same when I first joined the church over 45 years ago.
I only wanted to talk about the Church and all things that were involved with it, nothing anti-Mormon at all or anything else going on in the world.
It was a very strange mindset I had and I still do not quite understand it.
Now that I am free from this and no longer have much to do with the church I look back and am a bit amazed at where I was mentally back then.
Very strange.
I expect the reason why my family talks so much about Church is that it plays a huge part in their lives, and they really don’t have hobbies/interests outside of Church/family/work. Now that my parents are retired, they have lost the work social outlet and talk about Church even more then they used too.
i am a man that is not interested in sports. I don’t really like going or watching them and do not follow any of the teams. I used to read the sports page though each Sunday so that I had something to talk about with my male coworkers. With my female colleagues I had plenty of things to discuss with family and kids and other interests but I needed an in with some of my male colleagues that just needed this common third thing to break the ice. I learned that as long as I knew what happened to the Blues or the Cardinals or the Hawkeyes that then we could move on to other things. I have another work friend that his children are professional violinists and we talk about that and then move on to rest of our lives.
I think the church chews up so much of your time and thoughts that it is the lens all things in life are seen through and it is a barrier for maintaining friendships and close relationships with members now that we don’t have that in common. They don’t want to hear from me about my frustrations and doubts. my active sister and I do not talk about the church and walking around that elephant in the room is awkward and annoying for both of us I think.
With the politically or religiously obsessed, I usually disengage. I am too old to waste my life listening to the opinions of the obsessed
With my children’s obsessions, I listen and know it is what they are basing their world around. My oldest is the worst, with getting d-e-e-p-l-y into Star Wars, well it is way beyond fandom when Mark Hamill knows your name and Disney corp has accepted your character and purchased your costumes. And the next year it is back into the Society for Creative Anachronisms, where she has gotten her master piece done, been elected royalty, had numerable apprentices and, um, even currently is the only women with a squire (you have to be male and a fighting knight to get a squire, yet she has one) so, she accomplishes the impossible in her various obsessions. So, yes, I listen for hours and say wow at the appropriate times and hardly know what she is even going on about. But she is my very talented daughter. So, I smile and nod.
The only two relatives with obsessions that irritate me is a sister in law and one brother in law. The brother in law, everyone tells “just shut up” and the SIL doesn’t allow just listening, but it is “come see” her latest project and she doesn’t let it go, but nags and nags until you tell her off or go see. And like a two years old, she would cry to be told flat out that you don’t care, so, Worse than dealing with a two year old. I don’t see every Queen Elizabeth I dress or star wars or Dr. Who outfit my daughter sews, so why on earth do I want to see my SIL’s latest project.
Luckily my family has enough inactive, Jack, and apostate Mormons that everyone is pretty chill about not talking about religious subjects.
My husband and I enjoy talking about some volunteer work we have taken on. As we talk about what we do, we frequently get the puzzled question, “Is that a mission?” Well, no, it’s obviously not a mission. If nothing else, I don’t know of any missionary assignments that require hiking a couple of miles to get to the work area. It seems that many of our friends and neighbors can’t imagine volunteering outside of church either. We think it’s quite funny, actually.
I laughed pretty hard at the Reddit comment in the OP. That sounds exactly like some of the role-playing exercises that we would do in zone conferences on my mission in the 1980s: how to talk to strangers and turn the conversation to the gospel. One of my favorites was to have the missionaries start talking about a man’s appearance and quickly get to asking, “are you a Mormon [when it was kosher to say that] bishop?” When he [always a he, naturally] said no, we were to say, “would you be interested in learning how you can be one?”….pause for groans from the audience.
I think it is a sign of just how all-encompassing the Church is to many members (and is expected to be by most leaders) that they see everything through the prism of a church experience or topic. As a result, many just assume that every other Mormon [cannot break the habit after 56 years] embraces the same worldview, perception, and set of experiences, which leads them to talk, think, and act in the way described in the OP.
I guess that explains so many of the blank faces when I talk to people in my ward about my research (despite teaching at BYU), travel experiences (especially the poker stories), and interests.
This is my experience also. I have some longtime friends that I meet with a few times a year to catch up. They are fully active and I am completely out. Every time we get together, all they talk about is what their callings are, what callings other people have, new family that moved in from Utah, etc. But the absolute cringe for me is how they will talk about “magnifying” their callings. Cutesy little object lessons, hours upon hours of planning and decorating, cooking, etc. Their is literally a small cottage industry of women sharing ideas on how to make the lessons fun. We usually get on track with more interesting subjects but it is always part of the discussion.
Yes, PWS, that is a mission. It is likely something God wants. It just is not church-approved. So it likely means you’ll have a lot of fun doing it.
Superbowl: “Oh that ungodly halftime show, we live in the world, but we don’t have to be part of it.” I won’t watch the Superbowl with my family-in-law anymore. It is the same damn conversation every time and always “woe is us” because of the halftime show.
On traveling, I remember in my single’s ward one of the counselors in the bishopric went on a Baltic Cruise and showed us some slides and talked for about 30 minutes about how he diverted his tour of Scandinavia one day to go to the Sweden temple and how he was so holy and sacrificial for so doing. Seriously what a waste of time.
Also, I’ve learned and studied a lot of languages. I went on a mission to Brazil, but afterwards I studied the Middle East and learned to speak Arabic. So when I say that I speak Arabic, people often ask, “oh, did you serve a mission there” as if the only reason to know a foreign language is because of serving a mission. Often times I have heard people mock-act like terrorists or say that the FBI/police might get suspicious of me because I speak Arabic. I really hate, I mean really really hate, those reactions. Arabic is a language spoken by some 400 million people. It is one of the world’s most widely spoken languages that has influenced the vocabulary of Hindi, Swahili, Persian, Indonesian, and many other languages, even Spanish and English to smaller degrees. It is the official language of over 20 countries, including Israel (yes, 20% of the population of Israel not including the West Bank and Gaza, are native Arabic speakers). Its speakers are mostly Muslim, but also Christian, Jewish, Druze, and atheist. The biggest terrorism problem in the US is from far-right domestic movements, such as the Proud Boys and QAnon crowd. Now I no longer advertise to just anyone that I speak Arabic or have studied the Middle East, unless I know they are worthy of knowing that.
During playdates when my kids were little, the only topic of conversation among the moms was their kids. I fully participated. Talking to other moms about kids who were all the same age was a way to check for normality and share frustrations and just generally touch base and reassure yourself that this is just what motherhood is like when your kids are this age.
I got divorced and went back to work, and now when I get together with friends who focus the conversation entirely on their kids, I notice it. It’s kind of boring, in a sad way. I’ll ask my friend how she’s doing, and she provides an update about what’s going on with her children. Once I specifically said, “but how are you doing? not your kids.” And she said something about how it was basically the same answer since her entire life was her kids. I remembered that phase, but for me it was just a phase. I eventually took off the kid goggles.
I agree with the other commenters who acknowledged how much time and attention the Church takes. Like with little kids, if most of your waking thoughts and a fair amount of your free time are focused on one thing, you relate everything else back to it.
I’ve really appreciated the brain space it freed up to quit Church.
This past Sunday, our high council speakers talk was on this. He said we should be doing MORE of this. We should bring up the church ALL THE TIME. He gave an example of how righteous his wife was, because on a recent taxi ride, she was able to reference the church 5 times in one conversation! Go her! (The taxi driver didn’t seem interested the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th time, but perhaps a seed was planted).
We had a talk with our kids about how off-putting this can be. That in most cases, this is like doing Anti-Missionary work, because most people walk away thinking, “That was weird and annoying, I don’t want to be like them.” I honestly believe it hurts the church and the image of the church. The pew research center recently released information showing that Mormons (Latter Day Saints) are viewed unfavorably by every other religious and non-religious group in that survey. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2023/03/15/americans-feel-more-positive-than-negative-about-jews-mainline-protestants-catholics/
I think it is time to take a good look at how we approach others. Maybe encouraging people to bring up the church 5 times during a taxi ride isn’t having the positive effect that the good high counselors of the church think that it is.
Our best friends only talk church or what activities their kids are doing. My wife and I finally learned to just sit and listen until it was clear they were done then ask a question to steer the conversation somewhere that interest all of us. I think after a few months they figured it out and they don’t bring it up as much anymore. I mean, I do care what they care about, they are my friends. But I just don’t need the play by play of every little Mormon thing that happened at the free SAHM Mormon high fitness class yesterday.
With my family, my oldest brother was out years ago. I didn’t realize until he left how rude we were as a family bringing it up all the livelong day.
This post made me laugh so hard, especially the script flipping to astrology! And the comparison to Pokemon Go is apt.
In non-Mormon circles, my BIL and SIL live in NYC and my SIL happened upon a free ticket when Hamilton first started on Broadway (living in NYC means they generally see most shows for free via the lottery system). My SIL talked Hamilton non-stop and my BIL was so sick of it. Everything came back to Hamilton! It was maddening to him. So it’s a thing for gentiles too. I assume she’s not like that anymore all these years later but with Mormons it probably never ends.
Oh and regarding visiting temples when traveling, I truly believe the only reason the Church is building temples in places like Rome and Paris is for the Mormon tourist industry. Otherwise these temples make zero sense.
Last summer we vacationed with friends in Rome and they made the trip to the temple for church service and a tour and we did not. It took up a whole day because the temple is not near city center. I still have no idea what their nine year old and six year old did while the parents and fifteen year old were in the temple.
It’s natural for people to talk about common experiences and subjects of mutual interest. So intra-Mormon conversation will often be about the Church, including griping from time to time. It gets a little cringier when a non-LDSer is in the conversation and the LDSer tries to turn the convo to an LDS topic (as they are often encouraged to do by missionary-minded speakers or leaders).
How about if LDS were encouraged to get involved in non-LDS activities in their community? To read more non-LDS books? To go interesting places (not temples or visitors centers)? That would give LDS people more non-LDS things to talk about, which is what they need. Instead, the general direction of most LDS counsel is in the opposite direction. It has the (unintended?) effect of making many LDS insular and narrow-minded.
Not saying this applies to all cases of Mormon Goggles, but hyperfixation is a common feature of several forms of neurodivergence. I have a family full of people on the autism spectrum so I’ve come to accept that connecting with them just means a little extra patience in conversation and a little more deliberate statement of intention if they’re not picking up on my body language when a topic doesn’t interest me or makes me uncomfortable.
Something I find helpful is to remember all the aspects of church that exist in the mundane, telestial (or even secular) world—many of which I find very relatable. I won’t tolerate a conversation about signs of the times or the wickedness of the world, for example, but I’d love to hear what brother and sister so and so are up to or how so and so is doing on their mission. Yeah, temple work isn’t that interesting but genealogy sure can be. Tell me a good mission story or family history story! Enough of it takes place in the reality I recognize, we can probably find a way to connect.
A few years ago, my husband and I did a road trip on Route 66. It was quite an adventure for us. We saw and experienced so much, including the Turquoise highway, Williamson train ride to the Grand Canyon, the motels shaped like teepees, Albuquerque, Santa Fe, Taos, the Painted Desert, the Singing Highway, Mesa Verde, and so much more.
A friend from church heard that we took that trip and came over to hear about our experience. My husband showed him some slides and told him about the wonderful sights. He left very excited about the trip and his LDS social group of friends decided they wanted to take the trip.
Upon their return my husband asked him how it went. He said they didn’t experience much of the sites we saw, as they wanted to make sure they visited most of the temples along the way, Mesa Verde? They saw the sign, but didn’t have time to stop. The highlight of their trip was being able to tour the Manti Temple, including the upstairs part.
Such a sad commentary on the mentality of some members. The goggles they wear have prevented them from experiencing so much of life.
I think the experience in the temple can be meditative and contemplative. However, it’s pretty much the same at every temple, while God has provided us with a beautiful world filled with variety. Why go other places to attend a temple session you could have done at home? I don’t understand? Is it just righteousness signalling?
Another thought. I remember when my wife’s uncle retired, he came over to our house to meet our newborn child. We asked him what he was doing now that he was retired and what fun hobbies he was pursuing. His answer: he was so busy with all sorts of temple work. It was not a very interesting answer to say the least. Temple work is not real work and not real service.
I see everything through sports goggles.
We visited Rome in the summer of 2019 during the same time as the temple open house. None of the family wanted to sacrifice time from Roman history or the rooftop hotel pool (it was really hot that summer) to go to the open house.
When we returned home, most members assumed we went to the open house and asked about our experience at the Rome temple. Their collectives heads exploded when we told them we didn’t go but stuck to Roman ruins and history. It got kind of funny to see the amazement and disappointment on their faces as we explained the cool things we did see. Some Mormon friends did the opposite and went to Rome solely for the open house. (Long way to go for a kind of cookie cutter experience, imo). My family and our friends all had fun, memorable Rome experiences in the summer of 2019. Different types of goggles but fun experiences nevertheless.
My mom certainly fits the category of being all Church, all the time. For context, she is a retired widow who lives alone, and does not get to see her grandkids very often due to distance. The Church provides her with a robust built-in social network, as well as a sense of purpose and responsibility with all her callings, assignments and activities. Church-related (and Church-adjacent) activities fill her calendar. Without it, she would face crippling loneliness and all the physical/mental health issues that accompany it, a plight not uncommon to seniors. I think it’s a net positive for her, so I just smile and nod when she goes on and on about Church stuff. Admittedly, it’s a bit strange to see because she was never that hyperreligious when I was growing up. To her credit, she’s careful not to get too pushy or manipulative about religion to me (PIMO/nuanced) or my sister (resigned years ago).
By contrast, my wife comes from a large Utah-based extended family (not any high-status Church family name you would recognize, but definitely large and Mormon). Among the many, many living family members are dozens of returned missionaries, multiple BYU alums, a handful of current and former bishops, and also pockets of unashamed jackmormons. During large family gatherings, there is almost no religious conversation at all (except incidental mentions of so-and-so’s son being away on a mission, etc.). Nobody is flaunting Church status or callings or name-dropping general authorities they know. Nobody is making manipulative attempts to reactivate “wayward” family members or trying to organize family temple trips. One person says a prayer to bless the food at the family barbecue, and that’s about as religious as it gets. Then everyone eats and talks about sports or movies or school or work or anything at all, just like normal people. When I first married into this family, I was a bit surprised by this apparent lack of religiosity, since I wasn’t from Utah but had a certain misconceptions in my head of what Utah Mormon families were supposed to be like. So I wonder if being in Utah makes people take Mormon-ness for granted, since it’s so pervasive, they would rather be talking about anything else?
I share an immigrant ancestor with a Mormon prophet (now deceased). When the large extended family held a reunion before the prophet’s death, the activities were a temple session, a fireside the prophet attended, and a family picnic. I’ve always wondered how the inactive family members felt about it all.