Were you ever the “Actually” person in Sunday School, Relief Society, or Elders Quorum? You know the person. When somebody says something wrong in class, their had goes up, and they open their mouth: “Actually…..” where he/she then details the “correct answer”.
I used to be the actually guy in church. As a post-TBM nuanced member, I made sure to correct people when they they started spouting falsehoods. Joseph Smith used the Urim and Thummim to translate the Book of Morning; actually he used a rock in a hat. Thomas Marsh’s wife was excommunicated over milk; actually it was because etc, etc, etc. After awhile I got tired of doing it. It wasn’t accomplishing anything, and I was becoming an “attention seeker”, as hawkgrrl blogged about last week.
Sometimes I don’t always have a choice. As the former Bishop of my ward, I will often get asked “Bishop Bill, what do you think?” On those occasions, since I was asked, I will be more forthcoming.
Today I only speak up if somebody is being hurt or marginalized by some crazy lesson or comment. If somebody says that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah was condemning homosexuality, I tell them that no, it was the condemnation of inhospitality by threatening male visitors with sexual assault. Being Gay is a choice? Actually the Church no longer teaches that, and you can read all about it on their website.
Years ago I had a single mother that I was her home teacher. A member of the Stake Presidency was speaking in our Sacrament meeting, and he said that kids raised without a father had a greater chance of being gay. I watched as this sister left the meeting in tears. I caught up to the speaker after the meeting, and told him what had happened, and that he was wrong. Props to him for admitting he was wrong (after some discussion), and seeking out this sister to apologize.
What do you do when something wrong is being said in class? Do you bite your tongue like I do, or do try to rectify the error? Do you have some limit, where small things you’ll let slide, but bigger things you’ll speak up?
Please share your experiences with speaking up, and what you have found works for you in your ward.
Wheat & Tares 
More of a ‘someone really should have stuck their hand up and said Actually….’
I think it was around 2007/8 and I was sat in a lesson on the Book of Abraham being taught by one of the Old Guard. He said to the class: “So what was the curse of Cain?” There was an awkward silence and a lot of bums shifting in seats. Everyone knew what he wanted for an answer but no one wanted to say it. Finally a black sister in the ward put up her hand and said “Well if no one will say it then I will” The teacher then treated us to a few minutes expounding the curse of “negroid blood”.
Looking back I can’t get over just how jaw -droppingly, bottom-clenchingly awful that whole situation was. This was pre-Gospel Topics and pre-formal disavowal of those teachings and so I like to think such a lesson wouldn’t be taught again. But I can’t remember since then being in a lesson where the curse of Cain was broached and since I stopped attending during COVID I have no idea what would happen if someone brought it up now.
Anyone else’s more recent experience with this topic would be interesting to hear!
I was in an RS lesson about forgiveness, and the topic turned to forgiving families. A sister raised her hand and said that since families would all be together in the celestial kingdom, we may as well forgive them since that will make life easier (or something like that). I counter-commented, “if they don’t repent, they go to hell and then you don’t have to worry about spending eternity with them.”
The teacher hurriedly moved the lesson on, as soon as the laughter died down.
Our ward was divided into two camps regarding Joseph Smith’s polygamy. The holier than thou group argued JS was faithful only to Emma; the more rational side pointed out that there are written records of at least 30+ marriages (including polyandry, Fanny Alger, Helen Mar Kimball, et. al.).
Predictably, the discussions eventually devolved into arguments about the blessings vs. curses of polygamy writ large. Emotions only subsided when a wise RS President gave a 5th Sunday class based on seeking truth and used Compton’s book “In Sacred Loneliness” as an example of relying on factual data. I don’t know if she changed any minds, but it certainly quieted the fanatics.
I didn’t have the social capital to say “actually…” so I always just let the crap go and then took it out on my husband when we got home. Both of us were relieved when I stopped going, so I didn’t come home and argue with him about what somebody else said. If it was said in sacrament meeting, he missed it because he was playing peek-a-boo with the toddler on the bench in front of us or looking up something on his I-phone. He never even seemed to hear the stuff about “follow the prophet even if you think it was wrong” or how we have to forgive even if the person never repents even if they abused us. (and might abuse your children if you let him)
And Janey, I wish you had been in my ward. I really hated the way “forgiveness” in Mormonism means “shut up about it,” or “pretend nothing happened” or “let your children stay over night with the guy who sexually abused you.” Yeah, I *was* told that forgiveness meant I should let my father have a “normal relationship” with his grandchildren (my children) and have sleepovers and sit on his lap. The fact the I considered him an unrepentant child molester only meant that I was unforgiving, not that the person judging me would allow his own children around my dad. I really was terrified that even God was going to force me into pretending a loving relationship with him, and just hated God for it. Nobody ever told me that my dad was going to hell so I didn’t have to worry about it, it was all about how I was required to pretend nothing happened.
But back to that idea of social capital. You really do have to be a trusted member of the community to correct anybody, and I was a woman, misfit, heretic, liberal, and feminist. There was no way I could raise my hand and say, “actually…..”. That would only make my social standing worse. You almost have to be a man in an important position, or former bishop like Bill in order to get away with that and not be “that person” who is known for causing trouble.
I was one of those “Actually…” persons. After a while I realized that I was becoming a nuisance and my “Actually…” interjections were not appreciated. Every time I pronounced an “Actually…” I was met with silence. I ended up biting my tongue and sitting on my hands. Eventually that became unbearable and I stopped attending Sunday School and Priesthood. Now, when a speaker says something wrong in Sacrament Meeting, I turn to my wife and whisper, “Actually…”
I’ve seen men and women in my ward with “social capital.” But, it’s hard to gain, and very easy to lose. The most important thing in getting it is saying what people want to hear and being what people want to see you as. The truth has nothing to do with getting or keeping capital. Since we have “the one and only true church” everyone expects you to believe like they do and there is very little self-examination. It doesn’t matter if you quote scripture or a latter-day prophet because they will use one to contradict the other depending on their overall belief. You risk sticking out if you quote a writer or speaker who is not a general authority. give an example from your personal life, or talk about something happening in the world today and heaven forbid if you mention politics (unless it’s a republican meme). If you get divorced then everything you say is suspect and you might as well play with your iPhone.
I’ve been the “actually” guy since Thomas Marsh confirmed the “official” story several times when he was in Utah and back with the Saints.
He would work as a day laborer at various homesteads and then regale the household with stories.
It does make for an interesting discussion of how a narrative takes over and how people will respect a narrative they’ve embraced over the life stories as told by participants b
For what it is worth, I have a few observations about this post and the comments that have been made, thus far:
1. I am highly sympathetic to Anna’s account of her difficulties in the church, concerning people asserting that she had to forgive her unrepentant sexual predator father, to the point of allowing him to have his grandchildren sleep over with him.
2. Having converted to the Church at the age of 21, from an evangelical background, I was all too aware of the problem of leaders in any church abusing their positions of trust. My own grandfather was a nationally prominent Baptist minister, who was also a serial adulterer.
3. Because I have always read a lot, I know what positions that the Church takes on a variety of issues. I have dealt with anti-evolution people in the Church, who liked to quote from JFS’ truly awful book, “Man: His Origin and Destiny,” to claim that the Church opposes evolution. I responded with the Church’s official position, that it has NO position on this issue. I also have quoted DHO’s speech given at BYU, while he was a member of the Q12, in which he stated that it is pointless to deny the theory of evolution, since BYU literally sits on top of pre-historic fossils.
4. I have also had a Stake President give tirades in Priesthood meetings on the subject of birth control, in which they cherry-picked unofficial comments from DOMcKay on the subject. I bluntly reminded him of Church’s current position on this issue. He harrumphed at me, and walked away, but never broached the topic in a church meeting, again.
5. As an ex-Republican, I have tangled with Stake High Council members who have peddled their MAGA views, during their talks in my ward. I have bluntly confronted the, and told them that it is wrong to preach politics from the pulpit. I then complained to my Bishop, who then read the Church’s annual statement of neutrality in politics.
6. I will not be silenced, and have no problem telling people what the Church’s official positions (or non-positions) on various issues.
Thank you.
Taiwan Missionary.
ACTUALLY…
“Joseph Smith is not responsible for the presentation of the endowment: Brigham Young struggled with putting it together, and eventually gave it to Wilford Woodruff to finish up.”
“Covenant has little to do with obedience. Obedience is to Commandment as Responsibility is to Covenant. The central metaphor for covenant is marriage: do we obey, or take responsibility of our spouses? Covenant is expressed by being Our Brothers’ Keepers.”
“Joseph Smith’s conception for the temple begins as early as Section 59, long before he dabbled with silly Masonic motifs.”
“The Divine Feminine was practiced in ancient Israel, most especially in the temples established throughout Canaan (mostly Galilee), and particularly at Elephantine (Egypt), where archeological evidence and ancient text records a woman officiating as High Priest.”
“Cannabis was used in the Holy of Holies as incense offering alongside Frankincense. The temple at Arad has residue of cannibis, preserved for millennia, whether we like it or not.”
“In the Revelation, John speaks exclusively to The Church (seven churches, the complete church), and describes the Church as both Bride and Harlot. The institution is the Harlot, and the congregation is the Bride.”
Back in the 20th century, teachers could count on their class members being pretty much on the same page, except for maybe that front row know-it-all who constantly injects little-known and usually dubious facts. But now the class consists not only of Curriculumites and McConkieites, but also Petersonites, Meldrumites, AVOWites, Givensites, and McClellanites. Members of my ward have learned not to offer up correction, lest they open Pandora’s Box and unleash something like the following:
Teacher: So, remember that the most important thing about Christmas is that it’s the Savior’s birthday.
Helpful student #1: Actually, according to Kimball, Hinckley, Bednar, and D&C 20, we know through revelation that His birthday is April 6th.
Helpful student #2: Actually, according to McConkie, we don’t. And according to Church historians, D&C 20:1 was written by John Whitmer, who didn’t intend it to be a declaration of Jesus’s birthday. All we know is that He was born during a census that brought Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem.
Helpful student #3: Actually, according to mainstream Bible scholarship, the story of the virgin birth in Bethlehem is likely of post-Markan origin.
Travis:
“In the Revelation, John speaks exclusively to The Church (seven churches, the complete church), and describes the Church as both Bride and Harlot. The institution is the Harlot, and the congregation is the Bride.”
Actually! The woman clothed in the sun — who is the church — has twelve stars in her crown.
I prefer “Well, you know…” to “actually.” I get better results. People get less defensive. Another favorite: “Wait. Isn’t it true that…?” People have phones. Lots of fact-checking in realtime. So fun.
I’m Primary pianist these days (love it so much), and there’s very little need there. But when the situation calls for it, to paraphrase Lizzo, I’m 100% that, um, lady.
I don’t know if I’m an “Actually” person, but I will, on occasion, try to throw some nuance or an alternative perspective on a topic. If I can tell it’s not appreciated, I tend to clam up for weeks at a time and sit on my hands, unless someone says something highly offensive – which hasn’t been the case yet in my current ward.
On social capital: “Actually” ;), in a typical Mormon ward, social capital is also increased by perceived wealth or how prestigious your occupation is. As an extreme example, Steve Young probably has unlimited social capital in his home ward. He could literally say anything, and everyone would just nod their heads and smile. As far as I know, orthodox Mormons at large don’t think any less of him due to his association with the Faith Matters folks and their dangerous religious speculations.
Age will also get you a lot of social capital in terms of Sunday School/EQ/RS discussions (but especially in EQ). You could have not had an original thought since you were campaigning for Barry Goldwater, but if you’re of a certain age you can pretty much say whatever the hell you want in EQ and no one’s going to stop you. Granted, those are usually the guys making the types of comments that warrants a response from the “Actually” people, but not always. In general, the younger you are, the less money you have (or are perceived to have), and the less prestigious your occupation is perceived to be, the less social capital you’ll have to voice contrary opinions in a Mormon meeting.
The “actually” comments is something I am grappling with lately. I have always sat on the front row and raised my hand and presented alternative views all my life (yup, I was always teacher’s pet as a child). I am that person that raises her hand and bails out the teacher when no one else responds. Teachers often thank me for my comments. When the teacher looks down and doesn’t see people raise their hands I get her attention and point this out to her, so their comments are heard. Because I have family members that struggle to speak I am hyper aware of people trying to be heard and I get that even when I disagree, they still have a valuable perspective and deserve to be heard. Maybe because of this people tolerate my heterodox perspectives.
I am all the things Anna says she is and I was in a tiny ward for 20 plus years. Everyone in that original ward knows I am heterodox because I post my opinions proliferately and publicly on FB (emotionally I cannot bear to be silenced or inauthentic…if they confront me I will boldly keep coming with a smile…if I am up to it that week). I have only done this posting since the pandemic. I have a special needs child with breathing problems and I live in an area where everyone thinks masks and vaccines are dangerous. I started posting because I couldn’t stand to anxiously sit at home in silence.
I DO have social capital with many of the women who I connect with and they know I have supported them in multiple capacities. I have the respect, love and friendship (if not full agreement) of many many women in the ward while a few clearly resent me 🤷. Whether I like it or not I am a strong presence and influence in any group I am part of. It’s very difficult for me to blend in and go unnoticed whether I like it or not. Even in silence somehow I draw attention with emotion and facial expressions that stand out. I do not mask easily or well, and it’s an unhealthy habit anyway. I have stage presence whether I like it or not.
While there are women in my ward that have confronted me on FB, I never back down or go to resentful silence, if I am up to respectful, kind discussion and they are too. When I was in that ward the most recent bishop tried to silence me unsuccessfully and indirectly with repeated sacrament talks on social media, advising never to use it, & if you do never make a comment, scroll past, and don’t post controversial things because someone might read it. I responded by commenting on his own FB post and explaining I want people to read it, and that my oldest child left the church because he felt betrayed to find out about Joseph translating by a seer stone in a hat instead of the faith promoting narrative of primary. My highly curious and intelligent children read and research the internet voraciously. I want them to know the church’s actual history so they won’t be betrayed when they find it. I want them to be complex thinkers and to make informed choices about the church with their own personal spiritual authority without being ambushed by the contrast between the historical research and the faith promoting narrative.
Overtime, I earned his respect and he let me speak in church again. Then our ward was combined with a neighboring ward. I know the women from the other ward much more distantly. Every meeting is very crowded with no empty chairs. Sacrament meeting looks like stake conference. I have been very uncomfortable. I guess part of me is quite introverted.
Then came “Think Celestial” and the Haynie talk about crushing the water bottles like RMN. I got so sensitive I ended up standing up and fleeing RS on a couple occasions. Last week was Uchtdorf’s prodigal son. I tried again. Sisters went out of their way to welcome me. I made several comments I felt good about.
If I can’t do the “actually” I won’t be able to keep attending. That’s my reality. It really surprised me to feel so hurt by “Think Celestial”. I thought I was already aware our prophets are fallible. But it still hurts when we use hurtful theology instead of choosing more supportive theology that’s also right there in our standard works.
On reflection I want to support Margie’s comment that there are better and worse ways to do the “actually”. I prefer “another way to think about that is…” or my experience has been different and there are scriptures to support other points of view as well… “
It’s only worth the effort if you’re likely to help someone. Helping someone would include giving someone a different way to think about something that has been troubling them, or as you suggested, standing up for the marginalized against hurtful comments. I hold my tongue through a lot of weird comments because I’m not likely to change anyone’s mind or nobody needs defending against something hurtful. I feel like my current ward has people who say things that sound like homophobic dog whistles to me, but they are just subtle enough that I can’t tell and don’t respond. There are also people in my current Sunday school who go off on wild speculative tangents that aren’t particularly relevant (they do seem important to the person in order to sustain their over literal interpretation of scripture). Good teachers can rein that in a bit, but some aren’t as good at controlling the discussion.
Because NOTHING is more important than making sure all those “dumb sheep” know how smart you are.
Mat
What do you mean by “Faith Matters folks and their dangerous religious speculations.”
What’s dangerous about what they are doing and conversations they are having?
I have taught Gospel Doctrine in my ward for the past 2 years, this being my third. I made it clear to my Bishop, who is a good friend, when I was called that I would NOT strictly follow church correlated materials. I let him know up front so he could decide if he still wanted an unorthodox member guiding Sunday School discussions. I have made a rather strict point to NOT quote our own people. I have probably quoted a general authority 5 times in 2 years, instead offering points of view from other religious traditions, great literature, scientific studies that support a gospel principle or challenge it, pop culture (movies, music, art), and personal thoughts and questions that sometimes agree with mainstream rhetoric and sometimes don’t. For the most part, it seems that the members of my ward rather enjoy knowing, at least, that my class will offer something new, and avoid the platitudes and cliches that make church mind-numbingly boring. My purpose in teaching is to offer discussions that have a chance to enrich personal spirituality, not to obsess about the institutional church.
I hope so desperately for the strength of people to be brave enough to speak the truth, say what needs to be said, and begin to cultivate a place where we can integrate our darkness with our light. The Jewish ritual of “Yom Kipur” and “Rosh Hashana” formally do what we LDS obliterate, they actually read the failed stories from the Torah as part of the ritual. They don’t just cherry pick or manipulate the story to always appear triumphant, instead they embrace the failures as part of their Atoning ritual.
Margie, I like the “Well, you know…” and “Wait. Isn’t it true that…?” I will put them in rotation!
Toddsmithson: Apparently the intended sarcasm of that comment got lost between a cell tower and a satellite somewhere. I personally don’t believe there is anything remotely dangerous about the slightly nuanced opinions of the authors/scholars in and around Faith Matters, but a lot of orthodox Mormons do. I have a friend who was VERY off- put by Patrick Mason’s “Restoration” (can’t remember the subtitle), for example. However, there is nothing in that book that is any more “radical” than anything in Steve Young’s latest book (imo), yet no orthodox Mormons (as far as I can tell) are upset at him, even though he seems to run in the same circles as the “nuanced” intellectual community (including Faith Matters).
I have no problem with any of the above mentioned individuals or organizations. I was only using Steve Young as a person who has enough social capital among mainstream Mormons to freely share views that many orthodox Mormons may consider controversial, without being shunned, while those with little or no social capital don’t share this same privilege.
Mat
Thanks for clarifying, sorry if I came across curt.
Toddsmithson: not a problem at all. No offense taken. It’s always a crap shoot, I guess, using sarcasm in forums like this.
The one time I felt it necessary to be the “actually” person was during the Prop 8 campaign in CA that would ban same sex marriage.
Stake leaders convened a presentation to all adults and youth over the age of 12 during the third hour of the Sunday bloc to teach “Six Consequences if Prop 8 Fails.”
#5 Consequence:
“Ministers who preach against same-sex marriages will be sued for hate speech and could be fined by the govt. It has already happened in Canada, one of 6 countries that have legalized gay marriage.”
I raised my hand and pointed out that the U.S. and Canada have different Constitutions and ours includes freedom of speech and separation between church and state.
Duh!
I briefly experimented with being the actually guy but most of the time I found that all I accomplished was inspiring a half dozen double-actually guys to rush in and reestablish cultural orthodoxy.
“Jesus said love one anoth…”
“Actually, during the October 1976 general conference BKP said…”
There were a few times where I made a comment and afterwards there was a mad rush to be the first to remind the class of the official answer on the subject. The double-actually guys were the ones both seeking and earning all the social capital.
I concluded that the role of 2nd hour at church wasn’t about finding ways to enlarge the tent, I think most people that attend view it as a refuge from the world.
I live in the mission field, members don’t find many people that share their niche beliefs out in the wild so church becomes their safe place, a place they can retreat to in order to be with like-minded people. This may be an unfair or completely inaccurate assessment but I think people come to church to be validated, not to be challenged.
I can respect that but it creates an environment that’s too inhospitable for me. If orthodox members look to Sunday School for refuge, I look elsewhere for refuge from Sunday School.
Actually, Lily, it has nothing to do with showing how smart we are or putting down others, it is about teaching
Christlike principles of loving everyone, not blinding leaning on the arm of flesh, even when we call him prophet. He is still human and I will take the word of Jesus over ANY human.
Fred,
Yeah that happened to me in the Haney lesson when I tried to remind everyone that our church was built on the prayer of a 14 year old boy questioning institutional authority. If got told that if you know he’s a prophet you don’t have to think.
Mat,
I got the sarcasm.
Anna,
Thank you for responding to Lily
From a relative:
“My understanding is the milk striplings is basically true. One of his direct dependents through a daughter told me never to tell anyone in the ward she was related to Thomas Marsh but milk story was repeated numerous times by him to her grandmother…as well as some of his personal faults of jealousy. She thought if I had the name of Marsh I would probably constantly be asked.”
Curious if replying is more effective than commenting, because my comments go to spam every single time. I commented on Sunday and it never appeared.
“I live in the mission field, members don’t find many people that share their niche beliefs out in the wild so church becomes their safe place, a place they can retreat to in order to be with like-minded people. This may be an unfair or completely inaccurate assessment but I think people come to church to be validated, not to be challenged.
I can respect that but it creates an environment that’s too inhospitable for me. If orthodox members look to Sunday School for refuge, I look elsewhere for refuge from Sunday School.”
Me too Fred VII.
Lily: In my experience, dumb sheep are pathologically incapable of seeing that they are mistaken. You don’t get to be dumb sheep by accident. It takes hard work. But, dumb sheep aren’t the “actually…” audience. Those comments are usually to correct a factual error, which all humans make. Nobody knows everything. Some of us are just either 1) stuffed full of facts rather than propoganda because we were interested in finding out more, or 2) capable of using google while someone is teaching demonstrably false info (the manuals are full of these types of errors).
Angela,
I want to mention that many of the people Lily is addressing as dumb sheep, are at church for a multitude of reasons. Often they are in agreement with a person who raises their hand with an alternative point of view, but they aren’t brave enough to say it. Often people will come up afterwards and thank me for my comments that said not a word during the discussion. We aren’t alone in being uncomfortable with some teachers and teachings. When we raise our voices we tell others like ourselves that we aren’t alone either.
I’ve never said “Well actually…” as a way to correct the “dumb sheep” as Lily puts it. To me, that weird defensiveness says more about her than anyone else.
Angela,
Yeah… maybe it was sarcasm from Lily? Just seemed out of place.