Last week I listened to a podcast where this man talked about leaving his evangelical church. With just a few minor differences, this could have been any Mormon that has discover the CES letter and left the church.
He talked about how he would put things on the shelf, like evolution and the earth being millions of years old. Finally as a married adult he started reading more about the age of the earth, and the cognitive dissonance (he used those words) became too great. He told his wife he believed in evolution, and she burst into tears!
The part that really jumped out at me is when he talked about leaving Christianity:
If you are a Christian, especially if you are an evangelical Christian, The mandate is the great commission of Jesus telling people to share the gospel, you are supposed to bring people into the fold. What that does is it sets up this dynamic where every single interaction you have with a person, there is burden that you have to tell that person this thing. The dynamic in your mind is I have a truth, I possess the right answer, and there needs to be an exchange of “right truth” to them that don’t have it. That dynamic is toxic, it is debilitating, it changes every interaction that you have with somebody.
I enjoy living life so much more now where I get to talk to somebody, and I’m like “what am I going to learn from this person”, not what can I teach this person, or how can I tell this person that what I believe is right. Here is another person with another specific experience from a different place in the world, they a certain perspective, and I have a lot more personal satisfaction in getting their perspective, and how does that impact my perspective vs carrying around this book of truth you have to shove down people’s throats at every opportunity you get.
Howie Mandel Does Stuff, #146
How many Mormons do you know that are just like this person used to be? These Mormons, when interacting with non-members are always bringing up the church, taking to heart the “great commision” of sharing the gospel. I was like that while on my mission, but of course that is what I was suppose to do. But as soon I was on that plane home, I was done. I didn’t go to BYU, so there is nothing in my history except being born in Logan Utah that would give off the Mormon vibe with me. I, as the person above, like to learn from other people, and hate being in meetings where there is one person that always has to be the smartest in the room.
One of the complements I get from my boss at work is that I’m always learning and open to new ideas. Part of this comes from my father being a University librarian, and always having lots of books in our house growing up. I wonder if an “all in” Mormon (we need another word for TBM, I think that word has run its course) can be as open to new ideas and learn from others as well as a non-member/non-Christian. There is that certain amount of arrogance that comes from thinking you know everything when it comes to life, God, family, and that you have the only path to salvation. This comes across in talks in General Conference, more so in the past (BRK, JFS, BKP) but I also see it in Pres Nelson and Oaks today.
What is your experience with learning from non-members. Did you ever find yourself like the person quoted above, “always closing” with the Gospel. Or were you an open member that could learn from other religions, philosophies, and viewpoints? As you have become more nuanced in your religious beliefs (you are reading this blog), have you found yourself more in a learning mode when you talk with others about life?
Image by ElasticComputeFarm from Pixabay
Wheat & Tares 
I never “always closed” with the gospel. Not only did I never close with it, but I rarely even acknowledged that I was a member, that’s how opposite my experience was. I generally have avoided religious conversations my whole life. Of course, that just generated guilt (to add to the multitude of layers of guilt about every single thing I didn’t do perfectly.) That said, it didn’t particularly make me “open” to other religions. When I found myself in that situation, usually I just mentally compared the differences and still felt that smug arrogance (disguised in my thinking as “how lucky am I!) that I knew it all and was right.
I know a couple of devout evangelical people fairly well. Until reading your post, I never connected the dots that they have the same mandate to spread the news. With the one, there is not a conversation that doesn’t include Jesus. Ever. It is a lot, but we’re related so I tolerate it. It helps that we have limited in-person interaction. With the other, she isn’t quite that in your face, but she definitely brings it up when when an opportunity arises – just more naturally, with more tact, and not in every conversation. I guess the difference to me between Mormons and evangelicals is that Mormons are always trying to recruit you into their organization where evangelicals (in my experience) are just trying to confirm that you “accept Jesus as my savior.” You don’t have to become a member of their congregation. They’re not recruiting, just looking out for your soul. Perhaps that isn’t true universally.
Once the shelf was fully broken, I kind of wanted to get one of these shirts that says “I’m sorry for what I was when I was Mormon”. But that would mean having to acknowledge that I was one, so you can see why I never got one (or would wear it if I had it).
I have always been very genuine and open with anyone I talk to. I have always listened to others and connected well. I love getting to know people in all their differences. However, the church has always been a big part of my life and just part of anything I do or tell others about myself. As a younger woman I eagerly brought groups of friends to Relief Society. I have always associated with nonmembers, not specifically to convert them, but eager to include them if they wanted to be included.
The most demoralizing part of my spiritual maturation has been that I have come to see the church as an exclusive organization that rewards conformity, and silences people when they aren’t sharing the faith promoting narrative. Being silenced and marginalized myself has made my natural genuineness and openness about my life, a less inclusive narrative. It isn’t something you want to share to encourage a nonmember to attend.
My genuineness and openness has had to be curbed among members because I fear their reactions to my heterodox comments. It’s hard for me and isolating
Thanks Bill for very succinctly nailing this! I think you have hit a chord that will resonate with our readers on how important it is to be humble and willing to learn about life from as many perspectives as possible.
I have never been comfortable with the notion that we have all the answers and that people of other faiths really don’t have much to offer us. How arrogant that world view would be and thanks for stimulating what I’m sure will be a great conversation to follow. Why can’t we just approach life with a “wait-and-see” rather than a “calling-and-election-made-sure-because-we’ve-got-authority” type of philosophy?
Thanks again Bill for this brief but outstanding post.
In my ward growing up, my family was different. We valued education, even though my dad worked at the steel plant as a common laborer. Long story, but he had a PhD, which nobody knew, but because he just seemed intelligent and was always reading, his coworkers jokingly called him Dr. A. The rest of the ward were uneducated farmers, steel plant workers, and a few who squeezed into the lower middle class. So, we were the unpopular oddball out family. So, this “always learning” thing quickly got me into things that made me question Mormonism.
So, I never had a real testimony and never wanted to convert anyone, and told people to talk to someone else to answer questions about Mormonism because I was a heretic. Several of my social work clients wanted to reach the stage of healing from sexual abuse that I was at, and thought it might be my religion. I told them flat out that healing took time and therapy, but some still wanted to reach “forgiveness” and thought “religion” so when they pushed, I set them up with missionaries. A few converted. I was embarrassed to be the reason they wanted to check out Mormonism.
I have always gotten along with nonmembers because they allow me to just be, where the Mormons want to judge my unorthodox beliefs or fix me. They want to change me, not accept who I am.
The whole situation convinced me that you cannot have a genuine relationship with someone when you want to change them. There can be no real love because there is no real acceptance of who they are, only the wish to make them who you want them to be.
I grew up in a house that distrusted academics – and anything more than a basic education “because God knows best” and we have the One True Church with a direct link to God. Like your story, my parents think that evolution is one of the most pernicious teachings ever!
It’s beyond my comprehension that new religious generations repeatedly flog the newest Galileo or Copernicus for some new scientific discovery that doesn’t align with their religious view. My experience is that many good LDS people do try to learn, but they do it “out of the best books” which means the latest blockbuster from Deseret Books or the latest GC talks.
When I was at BYU in the mid to late 90s there were a few outstanding professors who taught us how to think objectively but I don’t know how it is now.
You know what is worse than someone who wants to convince you that they have the pure truth from a religious point of view? It’s someone who wants to that AND convince you that their politics are also spiritually based. I don’t think I’m the only one here who was once a TBM Reagan Republican who had to leave both organizations (the Church and the Party). There’s nothing worse than a family member who is convinced that they are ‘right” about the very two topics that should not really be discussed involuntarily and who mixes the two topics as if they are interchangeable. Shout out to Oaks and Trump.
I’m afraid that ethnocentric thought and behavior is so firmly embedded in LDS culture it will have to be blasted out. In fact, many LDS possess “holy envy” for elements of other faiths and cultures but don’t dare speak of it for fear of the personal repercussions. I think it diminishes the good that LDS has to offer. In fact, it opposes some of the most profound teachings found in LDS thought.
I am a convert and when growing up I was taught by my family to respect and love my fellow human beings.
My husband is a Lifer but was born and raised in a small branch in a tiny mountain town, not in Utah he learned a much different approach to life and religion there.
Where I was raised we had a few Mormons and they were avoided by almost everyone.
We learned quickly that they did not care for us as individual Children of God with our own ideas to be respected, but only as potential members of their church, they considered us inferior.
We were not given the same respect as a human that Christ talks about in the NT.
These Mormons were all transplants from the Safford?Thatcher or Eager area in Arizona.
Everything about them was inbedded in them as children of parents and grandparents and great-grandparents who were pioneers first to Utah and then on to colonies in Arizona.
None of them had any curiosity about the world around them or the rich Mexican culture that was present where I lived on the border between Arizona and Mexico fifty years ago.
We were all just fodder for what ever it was they thought they were to spend their lives doing and they insulted and angered almost eveyone.
I think possible this childish attitude of thinking they know everything about everything has been toned down a bit, maybe it is because of where I live now.
But the “smug arrogant” attitude that familywoman mentioned seems to be less or at least the members are better at disguising it.
Thankfully even after joining the LDS church I never let go of what I was taught by my family, to learn from and respect many different cultures and teachings.
And I was fortunate that my Lifer husband was never taught this so we did well between us in doing the best we could to try to figure out the world and eternity without the lockstep attitude of the mind so many Mormons had.
This mental attitude has been one of the biggest blessings we shared in our journey through life.
My thought on this topic is that now that I’m out I also don’t need to end every conversation justifying my newfound happiness outside organized religion.
Listening and learning from people is an art, one I’m not very good at. I’m trying to be better. No longer having all the answers is helpful.
Growing up, I was never comfortable sharing my Mormon-ness with anyone, partly because I was painfully shy and partly because if I did, I knew there was a group of very aggressive Evangelical kids in my school who knew more about my church than I did apparently and were very good at describing all the ways I was going to burn in hell if I didn’t accept Jesus and become saved.
Mostly though, there were just too many weird and embarrassing topics I didn’t want to own and discuss, though I guess I still believed the church was “True.” I’m not sure how I managed go on a mission. I think it helped that I was sent overseas to a very different culture than my own and got to teach the gospel in a different language. I think it would have been debilatively awkward for me to do missionary stuff in say, Green Bay, WI speaking English.
Now that I am nuanced (?) Mormon, I find religious discussions to be much easier (if they come up naturally) and have no problem discussing the strength and weaknesses of Mormonism. It’s liberating to go into conversations (and throughout life) with an open mind to new ideas, without all the pressure to convert one’s neighbors to the “Truth.”
I’m uncomfortable even telling people that I was born in Salt Lake City, fearing that they assume the obvious. I, too, have recently left the church and regret that I couldn’t have learned more from “the outside world” over the course of my 70 years. It’s not a bad place…
I’m uncomfortable even telling people that I was born in Salt Lake City, fearing that they assume the obvious. I, too, have recently left the church and regret that I couldn’t have learned more from “the outside world” over the course of my 70 years. It’s not a bad place…
This is a very interesting topic. Two and half years ago we moved to a new little neighborhood that is almost all retired folks. My husband still works, but I don’t. Because of this I have had the opportunity to get to know my neighbors and socialize with them. I have become especially close to my 80 year old Jewish neighbor. Up until now I had never talked to a Jew. We have had fascinating conversations. Now that I am no longer a TBM I do not have the pressure (or desire) to try and convert her. And in Judaism they don’t want converts, so there is no pressure from her. Once in a while my Evangelical neighbor will visit at the same time. She is the same age as my Jewish neighbor, yet constantly has to be evangelizing by making remarks about how one day the Jews will recognize Jesus as their Savior. It always makes it feel awkward. I usually try somehow to change the subject. I wonder why my Evangelical friend can’t see how offensive it is to my Jewish friend! Why can’t we just enjoy each other’s company? Why must we have an agenda to try and change people? Why can’t we just love and appreciate each other’s differences? More and more I am seeing the arrogance of Christians in their thinking that their way is the only way.
As with many other topics, I can’t help but think that this is more of a nuanced issue that depends on the very specific experiences of different people in different areas. We’ve all had to deal with the insufferable/smug on this issue – we have all the truth, so why deal with others? But we also get bits of fresh air from statements like President Hinckley’s about adding all good together (basically – remember that interview where he said, bring what good you have, and let’s see what we can add to it?). And we have the injunction to seek out learning from the “best books” – I think it is a human interpretation to insist that this must mean only scripture.
That’s a long way of saying, absolutely we should learn from those of other faiths. I don’t think it HAS to be cognitively dissonant to believe that we have truth to offer others, while at the same time being wholly willing to learn from those not of our faith. In fact, I would say it is absurd to believe that we have nothing to gain from others’ knowledge, experiences, and ideas. I’m sure I’m typing this message using software and hardware that was developed, wholly or in large part, by those of “other faiths.” As just one silly example. We gain from others’ knowledge and experience all the time, we just don’t recognize or admit to it. There is so much beauty in the world for us to experience, and much of that comes from other people.
Some of the most profound ideas and thoughts I’ve read or come across in my personal life have come from those of “other faiths.” I don’t discard those just because they didn’t come from those within our religious community. And while personal experiences vary, and certainly the personal opinions of the “leadership” varies, we have many positive examples from apostles and presidents who quote from well-known literature and statements from those beyond our religious community – Monson and Holland are two that instantly come to mind that are/were frequent to quote poetry and stories from across the spectrum.
I’ll agree that we need something new and catchy instead of TBM…”orthodox” is probably the most accurate dictionary word, but TBM is much easier to type. “OM” for “Orthodox Mormon?”…”Modox”…”Morthodox?” Lol, This is getting out of hand already.
Growing up, I often felt a twinge of guilt when some leaders insisted that we should always be preaching, but I never really felt it was the right approach. Even as a missionary, I found that hyperfocus on preaching didn’t really yield results – especially in Western Europe. In many cases, incessant preaching was more about virtue signaling to other missionaries than anything else.
My very first companion was on this last couple of transfers before going home. He told me from day one to eliminate my “nice voice,” which was excellent advice as a missionary and life in general. The “nice voice” being that singsong voice people default into when selling something…or when speaking in testimony meeting. This tone of voice may be the quickest way to turn someone off to earnest religious discussion.
I’ve always tried to keep an open mind, but it’s certainly more open now than earlier in my life. I’ve found that Mormons simply don’t have a monopoly on truth and goodness. I think one of the greatest (and most difficult) life skills is being able to listen to and learn from people we strongly disagree with. I think this skill is also increasingly difficult in our age when it’s easy to go online and find echo chambers to confirm all of our biases…but that also makes it an even more important skill to develop. Pres. Nelson saying, “never take counsel from those who don’t believe” really irked me – last I checked, D&C 88 doesn’t say, “yea, seek ye out of Deseret Book words of wisdom…”
I was blessed to have a dad, his parents and his paternal grandparents who were all lifelong learners. Dad and his parents set a wonderful example of the love of learning for learning’s sake for my sibs and me. We were given books as part of Christmas and birthday gifts. A library card was a precious possession and Dad took us to the local library every Saturday. At dinner Dad’s first question after the prayer on the food was said “What did you learn today?” and we would have marvelous discussions during dinner. No topic was banned which upset my mom because she was the opposite of my dad. Although she was academically brilliant she had no intellectual curiosity whatsoever and only read “church books” which my dad felt were generally simplistic and didn’t encourage the reader to engage in deep thought or wrestle with the subject.
Being raised to think for ourselves and to be constantly learning certainly made my dad, my sibs and me stick out at church. Asking sincere questions and sometimes knowing more about the lesson topics than our teachers did make n uncomfortable situations. It wasn’t that we were trying to show off, rather that we had genuine questions or sometimes wanted to share something interesting that we’d learned while studying the scriptures and related books. We regularly read books about and discussed the topics at home. One bishop actually suggested to my parents that we just keep quiet in our various classes and meetings so as not to intimidate others! This set off a row at home because my mom agreed with the bishop while my dad reminded her that “the glory of God is intelligence”. How incredibly sad it has been to be looked down upon and even shunned by church members and leaders for desiring to be lifelong learners and people who dared to ask questions! How do we progress in this life if we don’t learn and ask questions?
Throughout my life as a member of the church I’ve learned that most of the leaders and members don’t actually believe Joseph Smith’s own teachings that God expects us to be lifelong learners on a variety of subjects and that we should be reading out of the best books regardless of the topic. Because many church members don’t try to expand their knowledge they become easy prey for authoritarian leaders who are intimidated by knowledgeable people. They become easily manipulated and fall for crazy conspiracy theories and folk doctrines because they are intellectually lazy and won’t or don’t know how to discern between truth and error. RMN calls members who through study and serious thought call into question church history, doctrine etc “lazy learners” when in fact it’s the members who let others do the thinking for them, who won’t read anything not approved by the Q15, and who never question anything related to the church who are, in fact, the laziest of learners. How ironic!
I used to always try to share the gospel. I remember when I was like 12 or 13 and I gave someone the first missionary lesson. The Church still comes up naturally for me, but because I have that nuance and deep, abiding interest in Church history that makes it quite natural. I’ve learned the academic way of talking about these things that inspire interest, not disregard. And it’s always accompanied by sincere listening to others’ life experiences. In fact I really value that. I think by listening to others, I get ideas about how I can better my ward on an individual level. There’s this one fella in my ward, recently baptized and super enthusiastic. But he is very pretentious when it comes to the gospel. At university, he looks for ways to prove its truthfulness–which would be fine enough it he wasn’t so absolute that that means everyone else is wrong. It’s tragic, really. But becoming more nuanced in my faith has allowed me to actually learn about and see the world for what it is, in reality.
I find far more depth and spiritual feast listening to Rabbis, than with any of the leadership in the Church today. The institution is geared towards evangelical self-improvement, fixated on obedience, and ultimately fails when it comes to the responsibility of feeding the flock. LDS Correlation is an abomination: we ought to get rid of everybody there, start fresh, hire outside of Utah.
I am not sure what you are hearing about the Israel/palestine war?
Some things I’ve learned in the last few weeks.
There are about 16 million jews in the world. Similar to mormons. 7.5 million are in israel
The government of Israel is extreme right wing. Nietenyahu has always opposed a 2 state solution, and I think is trying to drive all palistinians out of Israel. Ethnic cleansing?
Palistinians live in the west bank, and in gaza. In the wast bank the Israeli government have been building roads which are only for the use of israelis, not palistinians. Israeli settelments are taking over the palistinian land without compensating the palistinian owners. The settlers are heavily armed with American supplied weapons, and
Israel has the power to stop food, water, fuel, and drainage from leaving or entering gaza. They have systematically destroyed the remaining infrastructure.
USA gives israel 3.3 billion a year, mostly in military aid. It has pledged palestine 100 million to rebuild gaza.
Israel has had troops in gaza looking for hamas and releasing prisoners, and hasn’t released one.
Israel was holding thousands of palistinian women and children for protesting, throwing stones etc. They are never tried and some have been held for years. Some of them have been released as prisoner exchanges. When a palistinian is released, the israeli defence force will raid their house and smash it up so there is not too much joy at the release.
Since the Israelis pulled out of the peace talks, they have resumed shelling, and air bombardment of southern gaza. They already told the people of northern gaza to move to the south where they would be safe. And have now killed another 1000 palistinians perhaps 300 of them children. Originally Israel claimed hamas had killed 1400 israelis but scaled back to 1200, they have now killed 15000 in response.
There are 3.3 million in Utah. There are over 2 million in gaza, now herded into an area 30 miles by 5 miles, and being shelled by artillery, tanks, and bombed from the air. Not discerning/ discriminating careful ways of only killing the bad ones. Can that be defending Israel?
I think Israel is quickly using up any good will it had.
When America stops supporting Israel financially, and verbally, what happens to Israel? The UN could send in peacekeepers and impose a 2 state solution?
As this war has progressed, more information has come out about the israeli government abuse of palestinians. It is difficult to distinguish jews from a jewish state behaving badly, and antisemitism is increasing throughout the world, since this started.