We have a love/hate relationships with “snitches”. Even the word snitch has connotations of doing something bad. Snitches get stiches. But is it wrong to report a meth lab in your neighborhood? The majority of people would say this is not wrong, and in fact it is your moral duty. Yet there will be a small group of people (those profiting from the meth lab) that would disagree.
What about the person in your HOA that turns you in every time you leave your garbage can out past the twelve hour limit. Did he have a moral duty to report you? Or is this a good example of a snitch, tattle tale, or Karen (Kevin?)
The US Federal Government has incentivized being a snitch. If you turn in a tax cheat, you get a percentage of what is recover in back taxes. This can be millions of dollars. You can also get a reward for turning in your company for using pirated software.
While the Mormon Church does not have a 1-800 snitch line (yet), there are strong incentives in some circumstances to turn in Church rule-breakers. The mission is a great example. I have read of mission presidents telling missionaries that if they do not report rule breakers, that they will fall under that same punishment as the rule breaker themselves. I read about a missionary who overhead another missionary say that he sleeps in every morning past the 6:30 wakeup time. It was not even his companion. The offending (and well rested) missionary confessed to the MP, and claimed the whole zone knew about it. The first missionary was questioned about knowing, and when he confessed to hearing about the sleeping missionary, was demoted to junior companion as punishment.
While most can agree that the above is way over the top, what about the missionary at the Provo MTC that was sent home for knowing that a group of missionaries was going for a hike in Provo Canyon and not reporting it? During the hike, one missionaries fell from a cliff and died. Everybody that went on the illicit hike, and everybody that knew about it but did not tell was sent home from their mission. This is a little more complicated.
Recently BYU instituted a 1-800 hotline for students to anonymously report “any corrupt, suspicious, dangerous or illegal happenings at BYU”. This is not the honor code office, but for the Integrity and Compliance Office. It is for reporting things illegal or against policy. The article explained that BYU has policies for “things such as animals, unfair grading and skateboards”. So basically you can turn in your roommate for having a cat in their dorm room, or the kid that rides his skateboard in the quad at 11 at night.
There is also going to be lots of overlap with the honor code. Underage drinking is illegal, and also a violation of the honor code. The real fun part will be the reporting of “suspicious activity”. The very “appearance of evil” can be reported! If you’ve ever read the police report from BYU police, you know that can be a hoot! From the police report:
A student reported a suspicious individual with long gray hair and a beard inside a restricted lab in the Clyde building. Upon arrival, the officer found a mannequin in the reported location.
The reason for the anonymous nature of the hotline as explained in the BYU newspaper was to alleviate students fear or retaliation. A quote from a student when asked about the hotline
“I think it’s a good option to be able to have a place to report stuff anonymously, so you don’t feel like you’re betraying the person you’re reporting and can feel honest without compromising yourself,”
Is there betrayal if you reported your roommate for skateboarding on restricted sidewalks? What about reporting a student for keeping a cat in their dorm? Now for a hard one: Are you betraying your fellow missionaries if you reported to the MTC President that a bunch of Elders was going to sneak out and go for a hike up Provo Canyon, thus saving a missionaries life?
What do you think about the BYU hotline?
What about the culture to turn in somebody, and if not you receive the same punishment?
Image by Sammy-Sander from Pixabay
Wheat & Tares 
Remember in The Sound of Music when Rolf turns in the Von Trapp family to the Nazis? That was shocking to me as a kid. I think people should mind their own business generally. Two exceptions: If someone is harming another person; if someone is engaged in destructive self-harm. Otherwise, worry about yourself.
Note: For you TBMs involved in leadership callings my proposal should shorten your Ward Council and PEC meetings to a fraction of what they are today. You’re welcome.
In grade school, the teachers didn’t want to know about rule breaking, even when it was dangerous, such as causing a fall onto blacktop below the monkey bars, or pushing a kid from the merry-go-round at top speed, onto the concrete surrounding it. Yes, in the 50s we had dangerous playgrounds. The bully would not get in trouble, the tattletale would be chewed out, and the injured kid sent to the office nurse to clean up the blood.
I don’t really know if grade school is different now that teachers are supposed to take bullying seriously, but my grand kids report that teachers still would rather not know.
So, to go from an environment where the snitch might get punished and for sure is disapproved of, to an environment where you get punished for not snitching has got to be culture shock. Oh, but who says not going on a mission is punishment. From stories I have heard it sounds like a reward, but that is beside the point.
While I dislike a culture of tattling, I think somewhere there is line between minor rule breaking and a child being hurt. In grade school, it seems that they draw the line at, unless the school will get sued for negligence, don’t bother me with one more problem. The opposite end, someone being killed seems punishment enough for breaking the rules or not reporting. All that should have been needed was a harsh reminder that there are rules for a reason. But it strikes me that expelling any who did not tattle was a CYA move by the MYC to appease the parents of the rule breaking missionary so the MTC doesn’t get sued for negligence because no leader saw that the kids were planning on hiking and stopping it. Somebody’s head needed to roll, and better a missionary that the MTC president. I really dislike CYA moves by institutions and I dislike rules that do not allow the missionary to enjoy the area where he is serving, and I dislike tattletale cultures.
I didn’t like the atmosphere at BYU back under Earnest Wilkinson and I would like it even less now. It isn’t that I am a rebel, or can’t follow rules, I just hate being treated like a child. And the church seems to be moving more and more to treating members like idiot children.
The only purpose for a BYU hotline is to allow church legal representatives to get a jump on potential litigation. It’s another example of how the self-serving institution is set up to grind truthtellers in the cogs of its bureaucracy. The irony is that the institution treats the congregation like an enemy from whom it needs to protect itself.
If I were American I’d forward the line to the group ‘Anonymous’ just for spamming purposes.
I have zero trust people wouldn’t use it to report honour code violations, nor that the debt. Associated with honour code stuff wouldn’t get involved.
*dept.
Here’s a thirty year old story told to me by someone from BYU security. So long before a hotline.
There was a peeping tom looking in coed bedroom windows. He looked in one window and saw two women students engaged in sexual activity. He promptly reported this and the women were expelled. He remained in good standing.
On my mission to Europe in the mid-60s, there was little tattling. If there had been, missionary life would have been almost unbearable. Few discussions, tracting 8+ hrs a day, few baptisms, if any. We were being asked to waste our time. The most serious offenses were sleeping in and traveling outside our assigned area. The more obedient had no better baptism luck than us rebels.
Tattling would have been a disaster. More mental problems, more physical ailments, more missionaries going home early. We did provide support for the few members in outlying branches. Membership activity rates were below10 percent.
Much of the Church in my mission area was a disaster. On the upside, the Church did have three functioning Branches. The rest were barely surviving. The leadership at all levels didn’t have the will to fix. Or overly optimistic reports.
‘Recently BYU instituted a 1-800 hotline for students to anonymously report “any corrupt, suspicious, dangerous or illegal happenings at BYU”. ‘
Can you turn in a professor or administrator for something like a Title IX violation?
This post reminds me of one of my absolute favorite post series of all time, the BYU Police Beat Roundtable. Here’s one with links to previous posts: https://bycommonconsent.com/2015/10/09/police-beat-roundtable-xxvii/
It was pure genius!
I referenced a couple of weeks ago, the cricket world cup being played in India. Earlier this week Australia beat South Africa to get into the final against India. Most believed India would win, but Australia with incredible fielding, and bowling, restricted India to 240 runs, and then passing that in 43 overs to win by 6 wickets.
The game was played at the stadium with the second largest seating capacity in the world, and was very noisy, as India is.
I suspect this would not reach American news.
“Now for a hard one: Are you betraying your fellow missionaries if you reported to the MTC President that a bunch of Elders was going to sneak out and go for a hike up Provo Canyon, thus saving a missionaries life?”
I’m confused about why this is such a “hard one”. It seems super simple to me. From your description of the event, all the missionaries in the MTC knew was that there was a group of missionaries planning to go for a hike up Provo Canyon. They did not know in advance that there would be a hiking accident resulting in a tragic death. Hiking seems like one of the most wholesome activities around–it’s certainly “appropriate” for missionaries since hiking on P-Days is one of the most popular P-Day activities for missionaries, and there are tons of well-known and very safe hikes that can be done in Provo Canyon. I think the missionaries at the MTC were correct in not reporting the hiking plans of these missionaries in advance. I know I certainly wouldn’t have snitched on them in advance when I was in the MTC. Sure, if those missionaries had known that someone was going to do something stupid on the hike that would get them killed (or possibly if they knew that the hiking route was very dangerous), then they should have done everything in their power to prevent this, including snitching. However, they could not have known this in advance. All they knew was that a group of missionaries were going to go hiking, so I feel like they shouldn’t snitch on them just for doing something like that. Even after the missionary died, I don’t think that the other missionaries that went on the hike much less the missionaries who stayed behind but knew about the hike should have been sent home from their missions. All the kids did was go on a hike for crying out loud. The fact that someone died is a terrible tragedy, but it seems like the punishment should be the same as if no one had been injured on the hike at all because it was just an accident.
I think the BYU “standards” are really interesting since my daughter recently completed her freshman year there. One of the reasons she chose BYU was to avoid the party culture present at a lot of other schools. BYU provided that atmosphere for her, and she really appreciated that. My daughter and I personally dislike a lot of the rules, honor code, etc. about BYU, and while BYU was weird and frustrating at times for her, overall she had a really great experience and liked the absence of the typical college party scene. Because of this, I’ve been pondering the question in my head a lot about if or how BYU could continue to minimize partying (and, I guess I mean by that, drinking, drugs, and premarital sex) in a more gentle way. As part of that, I’ve been wondering if snitching amongst students is required to keep this sort of thing to a minimum or if it could be done in other ways. My daughter (and myself back in the day) would never snitch on fellow students for these sorts of behaviors, but anyone who has even attended BYU knows there there are “those” students who will. Is the presence of these snitches (and bishops/Honor Code officers who will take action on their reports) required to maintain the “clean” environment at BYU where sex, drugs, and booze is minimal (or at least when it happens, it has to be hidden to avoid the snitches), or is there another, better way to make this happen?
Lately, I’ve been having ongoing conversations with my 12-year-old daughter about this very topic, as she is trying to sort out the difference between snitching/tattling (reporting when motivated by personal aggrandizement or to enjoy the punishment of others) and lawful reporting (often a duty or obligation when you are a witness or victim of a crime or injustice). In her middle school world, she is discovering that there can by a wide gray area in between; for example, when knowing when personal loyalty should take precedence over reporting wrongdoing, or whether severity factors in (i.e. misdemeanor versus felony), or whether the rule is stupid and shouldn’t be enforced at all, or whether its better to just mind one’s own business. Since these are highly situational, there usually isn’t a clear-cut answer, but I appreciate that she trusts me enough to have a running dialog about it as she figures out how to be a decent human being along her journey to adulthood. In general, we remind her that criminal activity (or anything like unto it) must be reported, and in all other cases, trust your gut and try to do the most good for all concerned, without sacrificing your integrity, and that arbitrary nonsensical rules deserve to be questioned and challenged through appropriate channels. It’s usually a good idea to mind your own business unless someone is causing harm or injustice.
With regard to the whole idea of “failure to report results in the same punishment as the original offender” approach, I understand it to a point; the military academies have used this as the foundation of their honor codes for over a century (“A cadet/midshipman does not lie, cheat or steal, nor tolerates anyone among us who does” or something to that effect). But in that context, it’s more about building a foundation of personal integrity, and an accuser is required to produce evidence. And if the offense is a criminal act, law enforcement authorities are involved immediately, rather than school administrators. BYU is different story, though. If an anonymous complaint by one student with zero evidence can result in another student being expelled, especially in a case when no one has been harmed and no laws are broken (only the school’s own crazy made-up rules), that is a really screwed up system that enables petty enforcers, stunts their emotional maturity and does the opposite of developing personal integrity.
I specifically chose not to attend BYU for many reasons, not the least of which was that the idea of going to a college that was even more strict and punitive than my high school or my family’s house rules was very unappealing. As I recognize the growing capability for nuance in my own daughter, I will likewise be encouraging her to look elsewhere for post-secondary education.
Posting a second time since the first one never showed up(?)…
“Now for a hard one: Are you betraying your fellow missionaries if you reported to the MTC President that a bunch of Elders was going to sneak out and go for a hike up Provo Canyon, thus saving a missionaries life?”
I’m confused about why this is such a “hard one”. It seems super simple to me. From your description of the event, all the missionaries in the MTC knew was that there was a group of missionaries planning to go for a hike up Provo Canyon. They did not know in advance that there would be a hiking accident resulting in a tragic death. Hiking seems like one of the most wholesome activities around–it’s certainly “appropriate” for missionaries since hiking on P-Days is one of the most popular P-Day activities for missionaries, and there are tons of well-known and very safe hikes that can be done in Provo Canyon. I think the missionaries at the MTC were correct in not reporting the hiking plans of these missionaries in advance. I know I certainly wouldn’t have snitched on them in advance when I was in the MTC. Sure, if those missionaries had known that someone was going to do something stupid on the hike that would get them killed (or possibly if they knew that the hiking route was very dangerous), then they should have done everything in their power to prevent this, including snitching. However, they could not have known this in advance. All they knew was that a group of missionaries were going to go hiking, so I feel like they shouldn’t snitch on them just for doing something like that. Even after the missionary died, I don’t think that the other missionaries that went on the hike much less the missionaries who stayed behind but knew about the hike should have been sent home from their missions. All the kids did was go on a hike for crying out loud. The fact that someone died is a terrible tragedy, but it seems like the punishment should be the same as if no one had been injured on the hike at all because it was just an accident.
I think the BYU “standards” are really interesting since my daughter recently completed her freshman year there. One of the reasons she chose BYU was to avoid the party culture present at a lot of other schools. BYU provided that atmosphere for her, and she really appreciated that. My daughter and I personally dislike a lot of the rules, honor code, etc. about BYU, and while BYU was weird and frustrating at times for her, overall she had a really great experience and liked the absence of the typical college party scene. Because of this, I’ve been pondering the question in my head a lot about if or how BYU could continue to minimize partying (and, I guess I mean by that, drinking, drugs, and premarital sex) in a more gentle way. As part of that, I’ve been wondering if snitching amongst students is required to keep this sort of thing to a minimum or if it could be done in other ways. My daughter (and myself back in the day) would never snitch on fellow students for these sorts of behaviors, but anyone who has even attended BYU knows there there are “those” students who will. Is the presence of these snitches (and bishops/Honor Code officers who will take action on their reports) required to maintain the “clean” environment at BYU where sex, drugs, and booze is minimal (or at least when it happens, it has to be hidden to avoid the snitches), or is there another, better way to make this happen?
This isn’t an honor code compliance hotline. It’s a legal compliance hotline operated by EthicsPoint, a contractor. The University of Utah also has an EthicsPoint hotline. This isn’t the scandal people here are pretending it is, and acting like it is only gives fuel to apologists when BYU actually does overreach.
mountainclimber,
I think BYU could afford to significantly lay off the rules and there would still be plenty of people who wouldn’t be partaking in partying. The scene your daughter (and my son) are looking for where you have a large contingent of kids who have similar values and beliefs would still be there. My son similarly had a good first year there despite some of the rule obsession. I do wish there were more LDS kids at some other schools to create a significant social group; many colleges have LDS student associations that number in the single digits.
“In general, we remind her that criminal activity (or anything like unto it) must be reported, and in all other cases, trust your gut and try to do the most good for all concerned…”
I am reading that in Russia, it is a crime to speak words, even in private, that are not supportive of the country’s aggression against Ukraine. Other countries criminalize other matters. I’m not sure that good people, even in the U.S., have an absolute duty to report criminal activity to the authorities.
Geoff-Aus
I was in India during the World Cup for work but had to stop our planned itinerary for India’s games, which was awesome. The rules to cricket make very little sense to me but it was lovely to spend the day with my Indian colleagues cheering on the national team.
I guess how that relates to the topic at hand is that I don’t think byu rules make a lot of sense either. BYU always encouraged snitching to the honor code office but it seems silly from the outside. So many more important things to worry about policing than the honor code rules about sexuality.
I will give the BYU approved housing though credit for keeping off campus housing standards high with contracts for every person and clean safe housing for students. Sometimes my kids at state schools in Missouri have had much harder time finding similar standards for accommodation.
Gotta love the church busy body- that “brother” or “sister” who, since Sunbeams, has appointed himself or herself “Keeper of the Social Order” and been rewarded for spying, snooping, & sniffing out any hint of possible deviance. There are no boundaries to be respected in the church “family”. Your business is their business, and, if deemed “against the rules”, must be reported up the chain of command. The older the tattler gets, the taller the tales of the “troublemaker’s” transgressions.
When we were newlyweds in a new ward, my husband got called in to meet with the bishop. A ward member had reported seeing my husband mowing our lawn, On Sunday! During Church! In His Swimsuit! He tried to defend himself and say Yes, he had mowed on Sunday but that we had been out of town, that we both work & go to school, and that he did Not mow during church, nor was he in his swimsuit. He received no empathy, nor was he believed. I knew that my husband told the truth. The incident left us feeling mowed down in that ward. Maybe that was the goal. Well, it left a bitter taste that grew into an aversion to authoritarianism.
Having students report other students to the Honor Code office is nothing new at BYU Provo. During Ernest Wilkinson’s reign of terror Ezra Taft Benson and Cleon Skousen convinced Wilkinson that BYU had become a hotbed of covert Communism and Socialism. Students were actually given callings to spy on faculty, staff and students who might be Communists. Many innocent people who had to appear before the ETB, CS and EW tribunal were brought up on bogus charges. When word got out to the general public about the covert spy operation going on, both BYU and the church were heavily censured by other institutions of higher education, national politicians, etc. This led to Wilkinson’s choosing to step down as president.
As a student at BYU at the end of DHO’s reign students and faculty were actively encouraged to report anyone to the HCO that they suspected were gay or lesbian. This had a terrible effect upon the student body. Friends could be turned in for giving each other a hug or a peck on the cheek, for holding hands or for putting their arms around each other’s shoulders. Some girls in my dorm paid a heavy price for acting as close friends often do. The girls in one apartment who were the entire RS presidency and the compassionate service coordinator were the worst snitches. Anyone (most of the dorm) who knew that these same girls were regularly entertaining their boyfriends in their bedrooms at night in the dark without their clothes on or who had discovered that these girls also robbed the washing machines and dryers of their money became this group’s targets. Our dorm mother also snooped around apartments without permission in the hope of finding incriminating evidence against the “targets”. She and the snitches would tell the bishop about these “criminals” and he would then report the targets to the HCO and then set up a church court to disfellowship or ex the victims.
These girls were never allowed to defend themselves or to bring their parents or a trusted older adult with them when meeting with the bishop. This group of snitches also talked about what was supposedly going on in our dorm on campus and elsewhere naming names. We all lived in fear that they could name anyone of us and destroy our reputations and standing in the church. Because our group of snitches had such high profile callings the bishop, the HCO and many people on campus generally believed that these snitches must be beyond reproach and, therefore, getting people to believe in a persecuted girl’s innocence was extremely difficult. Ironically, our dorm was singled out for special commendation by the administration for taking DHO’s directive to root out evil (especially LGBTQ+ “evil”) to heart. Meanwhile, the majority of the girls in my dorm spent as little time as possible there so as not to be turned in for some made up offense.
The situation came to a head when one of the girls in my dorm who’d been accused of being a lesbian and who’d tried to maintain her innocence to the HCO, the stake president and others and who’d tried stop or postpone her upcoming church court tried to take her own life. She very nearly succeeded. Afterwards she told the psychiatrist at the local hospital about what had caused her to try to kill herself. He in turn reported her story to the administration, HCO and the SP. After her story was found to be true the snitches and our dorm mother were kicked out of BYU. The bishop was immediately released and exed. It was such an ugly and traumatic experience for everyone living in our dorm. I completely lost my respect for authority, especially church authority as a result. I also lost my testimony at that time. Many other girls did likewise and several of them left BYU in order to attend college at a place that banned students spying on faculty, staff and students for stupid, unethical reasons. And, of course, this entire nightmare was hushed up to keep the university, its leaders and policies from looking horrible in the eyes of the students, their parents and the community in general.
When I’ve shared this story with TBMs I’ve been told that 1)I just imagined what happened because the Lord “would NEVER allow such a thing to happen at His university”, 2)I should just banish this experience from my mind forever and act like it didn’t happen, 3)I shouldn’t ever talk disrespectfully of the Lord’s anointed ones (DHO and my then bishop) because they couldn’t possibly make mistakes or any bad decisions because of their Priesthood and 4)I should be grateful that my roommates, dorm mother and bishop were valiantly trying to protect all of us in our dorm from the scourge of “unnatural” sin. Yikes!
Any type of system that condones and encourages people to spy on others and report supposed “wrongdoing” to the appropriate authorities may sound like a great idea to administrators and “holier than thou” types who have no compunction to report and “punish all law breakers”,-guilty or innocent-but the truth is that this type of surveillance NEVER has any positive outcomes and has far too many serious flaws that can permanently ruin and possibly bring about the untimely end of a falsely accused person’s life.
There are no kind words in our scriptures for tattlers, talebearers, snitches, informers, or whatever one wants to call them.
I am allergic to cats and agnostic in regards to skateboards. But I attended BYU enough years ago that the Wilkinson spy network was still a hot topic among the faculty. It seriously damaged BYU culture.
As for when it is appropriate to snitch, reporting to save a life or report an illegal activity (serious misdemeanors and felonies) is the right thing to do, and snitching to support institutional or church rules is the wrong thing to do. Drunk drivers? Turn them in. But I decided that if LDS Bishops can withhold information regarding child abuse from civil authorities, then I can withhold information regarding violations of church policy and easily look God in the face when the time comes. In short, if it is legal and doesn’t hurt anyone, leave them alone.
ji, I agree with you. The scriptures might actually condemn tattling, ratting out, etc. Jesus told us to address the beam in our own eye, and not to worry about the mote in our neighbor’s eye. His gospel was not about me worrying about what my neighbor might be doing, and it was all about me doing right personally, irrespective of what others might be doing. Paul taught the same message: let your neighbor decide how he is going to live the gospel, and you decide how you’re going to live it, and good fortune to both of you. The OT required two witnesses, and Moses told the people to “not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people.” Proverbs tells us not to accuse or slander a servant or slave to his master, and that the words of a talebearer or gossip are like tasty bits of food that people swallow up, but what harm it does!
A “snitch” line which I’m sure is connected to Honor Code Enforcement or will be with mission creep.