I’ve recently noticed a new trend among Church members which is congratulating 8 year old children on their “choice” to be baptized. This has become the go-to way of describing a child’s baptism. I’m not sure when this came into the Mormon parlance, and one could argue the merits of this approach. Do children feel more empowered by this word choice, an acknowledgement that they are growing up? Or do they feel gaslit, like someone’s trying to convince them they have a choice when they really don’t? Do their feelings change with age or does their young age make a lasting impression not easily overturned with time?
I did not choose to be baptized.
Don’t get me wrong; as an eight year old, I was ultimately persuaded to go along with it. I wanted to please my family. All my closest friends were at Church. But let’s be honest; I didn’t really have a choice in the matter because I was a dependent child at the time. What was I going to do? Move out and get an apartment? I recall my feelings at the time with perfect clarity. I remember that the entire idea of being immersed in water in front of a group of onlookers was absolutely terrifying to me. When my parents brought up my impending baptismal date, I burst into tears in our white station wagon and begged my family not to make me do this. My parents were alarmed at my sudden disobedience, and tried to cajole and reassure me.
They also wanted my brother who was ten years older to perform the baptism, which terrified me almost as much as the public spectacle. Honestly, this was a non-starter to me; I did not trust my brother in water at all. My only experience with him in water was at the swim club we belonged to, him teasing me, splashing water in my face, and dunking me until I came up gasping for air [1]. He was a notorious prankster with occasional forays into bullying. I was convinced that he would hold me under the water and not let me up, that maybe this was how I would die. I could tell that my brother was disappointed and embarrassed by my unwillingness, but aside from my fears, I also felt like this request made me a prop in his personal path rather than the one undertaking a step toward adulthood. The more my parents pushed, the more I felt that once again, boys mattered more, a fact that I felt was made clear to me repeatedly growing up. I was standing in the way of his personal growth milestone. I was supposed to be an object in his story. My agency was doubly not important.
My parents finally relented in the pressure about my brother and agreed with my repeated pleas for my dad to baptize me instead. I trusted my dad in the water. He taught me to swim. He was fun in the water and didn’t play mean pranks. He wouldn’t let me get hurt. But this parental concession was also designed to eliminate all my objections, even though it only addressed one of them. If they gave in on this one point, I needed to get in line.
Since they made girls wear a dress to be baptized at this time, at least in our ward, I was afraid the dress would float on the water, and everyone would see my underpants. My mom told me to tuck the dress between my legs as I got in the water, which wasn’t that easy while descending stairs [2]. I didn’t want to be embarrassed, and I didn’t want to be the center of attention. I didn’t want the other kids to tease me if something went wrong.
I weirdly had some anxiety around the fact that my birthday was two days before my baptism, meaning that for two whole days I was at risk of something, dying in a car accident before being baptized maybe. I would exist in a limbo, a no-man’s land, a purgatory on earth. And what about the time period between my baptism and the confirmation which would be the following day during sacrament meeting. I’d be baptized, but not confirmed, so did it really count? What was my status exactly? A member of the Church, or an almost member? Nobody seemed as concerned about these legalistic questions as I was. How was I supposed to win at baptism if the rules weren’t completely clear?
I’m sure my parents also wanted to avoid embarrassment if I couldn’t be persuaded. They didn’t want to have to explain repeatedly why I was not baptized. They didn’t want to explain, on some level, why my brother wasn’t performing the ordinance, and they also probably wanted to use my ordinance to reinforce his commitment to the Church, to make it more likely he would go on a mission. I was too young at the time to consider such things.
My best friend, who often attended Church with me, was not baptized. Her mother had left the Church, and her post-Mormon policy was that her daughters could be baptized if they chose, but only at age 18, not as children. She might have been taking a page from the Amish playbook since we lived in rural PA, surrounded by Amish and Mennonite families. Similar to Mormons, the Anabaptists objected to infant baptism, instead believing that one could only make such a decision after a confession of faith (for Amish & Mennonites between age 16 and 19). But, as my friend’s mom noted, 8 is not 18 in terms of our ability to make an informed decision about something.[3]
The Amish have an extremely high retention rate, though, which goes to another aspect of freedom to choose. The current rate is 85-90%, and as you might surmise, it is higher the more isolated the community is. Rumspringa is an Amish & Mennonite activity young people can do to leave their community and experience life in a non-Amish setting before they make their decision. Different sects allow different levels of freedom in their Rumspringa, with generally more freedom for those in larger communities than in small sects; some Rumspringa is kind of like EFY, whereas others experience something more like what’s depicted in reality shows. If you were raised Amish, you probably did not attend public school, and Amish education in most sects ends at 8th grade. You don’t own or know how to use technology. You haven’t worn secular, store-purchased clothing during your lifetime. Every aspect of your life revolves around the farm or a family trade, and you eat every meal with your family and your community. If you choose to leave before baptism, you are not automatically shunned as you have not made a commitment, but your family may not allow you to live at home if you are in violation of community rules against technology use, like cars, phones, and computers.
So, is it a choice if your ability to say no is restricted? Some church leaders have said that yes, you made the “choice” to do everything the Church says for the rest of your life (in this case, going on a mission as a young man) if you “chose” to be baptized at age 8. Lest you think this guy is some rogue rando, the same sentiment has been expressed by E. Bednar. The more parents attempt to control the choices of their children, the less it is a choice. This is also true when the pressures that eliminate choice are from other factors, including the Church itself. Poverty restricts choice. Financial dependence restricts choice. Physical intimidation or abuse restricts choice. Psychological trauma restricts choice. Social pressure (whether praising or shaming) influences choice. Mental health impacts choice. Isolation restricts choice. The fact that the human brain doesn’t fully develop until one’s early 20s also alters choice.
Reframing a child’s baptism as a “choice” could be seen as a positive in reminding the child that they have a choice, but if they don’t really have a choice (as I didn’t, as I would posit no 8 year old child has), then it’s kind of a manipulation to imply they made the choice, implying that they bear sole responsibility for it, and that it’s binding on them for life.
- Does calling a child’s baptism a choice lead to positive outcomes or negative outcomes in the long run?
- Do you think 8 year olds have the freedom to choose baptism?
- Did you want to be baptized at age 8?
- Is this language a new trend?
Discuss.
[1] When I got Covid (class of Delta variant), my first thought was that it was exactly the same sensation as highly chlorinated pool water in my nose. Even before the test, I knew I had it as soon as that unique nasal burning happened.
[2] And yes, the dress floated.
[3] If I were held to choices I made at age 8, I’d still think a severed chicken foot makes a swell romantic gift.
Wheat & Tares 
Perhaps it doesn’t feel like a choice to be baptized for most children–and so maybe we should be careful with how we use the word “choice” in that context. But still, the important question is whether or not children (eight years and older) will learn something about right and wrong and chose to do good rather than evil. That’s where the real choice is.
Thank you for this insightful post.
I remember my baptism very well. It was the first Saturday in June, 1966 and I was annoyed that I was missing a little league baseball game. I was missing a game; that’s what being baptized meant to me. I’m sure people talked to me about it before hand. I’m sure I had lessons about why I was being baptized, but all it meant to me was that I was not on the baseball field. That right there tells me I was not mature enough to be making such a serious eternal commitment.
It seems odd to me that in no other area would we see an 8 year old child as being mature enough to make a major life decision. Yet we convince them they need to make THE most important life, and eternal life, decision at such an intellectually, emotionally and spiritually immature age. And then we tell them not only did they “make the choice” to be baptized, but 10 years later they find out about the fine print; they covenanted to serve a mission.
I find the latest trend of telling young men that they “made the choice” or worse, “covenanted” to serve a mission when they were baptized a very disturbing, bordering on creepy thing to say.
I wanted to get baptized as part of the rite of passage and doing what was expected. I felt weird and unglamorous in the white jumpsuit (which I regret – it made no sense to me that if it was such a big deal and was such a lovely thing, why was I in an itchy, thick, uncomfortable, horrible looking suit for all to see and celebrate “my choice” in).
Our eldest got baptized as part of the rite of passage. I ticked my husband off and made a “weird” impression on our branch president by insisting that a parent would be at the interview (to be fair, this was at the beginning of the Sam Young stuff and my daughter doesn’t handle questions/interrogations by strangers well). My husband took it as “I was bucking the system and imposing on leadership” but conceded for our child, it was a reasonable gamble to make. It went fine overall – slightly weird because I was the only one who had envisioned that exact circumstance with the parent and branch president there in the meeting. Other garden-variety human-pride stuff went down at the baptism that made the experience a net negative situation. After my faith transition and my experiences with baptism, I don’t want my youngest to get baptized at 8 (and I will not plan the baptism as culturally expected). I think it does more damage then help in the long run to the individual to be baptized so young.
I am not sure the question is “whether children (eight years old and older) will learn something about right and wrong, and choose to do good rather then evil”. Human development as a subject states that learning about choices and how to make choices is the transition from childhood to adulthood. There is also a lot of difference between “learning” and “doing”.
I don’t think baptism has anything to do with it. Baptism is related to many other things though.
– Community: Baptism is the gate to the church community for any organization. Humans (Child/Teenager/Adult) need community. For Mormon Corridor, maybe baptism is the only way to access both the religious and civic communities to form social networks. But if you don’t get baptized at 8, you can still grow up a good human.
– Rite of Passage: It is a convenient segregation point between the almost teenagers and the young children. I don’t know the impact of not having one at that point and essentially re-configuring community connection at that age means.
– Youth Baptism Requirement: I don’t know much good having youth baptisms for the dead actually does.
To say that no 8 year-old has a choice about baptism goes too far. I’ve known 8 year-olds with largely inactive families that wanted to be (and were) baptized, and I know an 8 year-old who has chosen not to be baptized. He has one active-ish parent and one non-member parent and they’ve let him make that decision. Certainly, parents (and others) influence young kids decisions, but that’s true of adults as well. All that said, I don’t disagree that the majority of 8 year-olds aren’t really presented a neutral choice about baptism where they truly feel that their parents, friends and ward will be equally happy with their choice either way. (Though again, is there any choice a kid makes where that is true? I let my kids choose their friends, the books they read, the shows they watch, the language they use, etc., but I’d be lying if I said I didn’t have any opinions about their choices, and they know I have some of these opinions. But I don’t think that my attempts to influence them means that they don’t have a choice.)
Now, to answer the questions, I’ve noticed the language of “choosing” to be baptized to mostly be present in facebook posts from moms and in those repetitive talks we recycle for every baptismal service. We don’t talk about their choice in the lead up; no primary teachers ever say “you’re all going to have to decide if you want to get baptized this year”. They only say “you’re all getting baptized this year!” And once they’re wet, we rarely talk about their choice. It’s over, it’s done. The ARE baptized, so why focus on whether it was a choice or not. As a result, I don’t think most LDS kids think of baptism as a choice until they are suddenly told that they chose it hours or minutes before it happens. 8 years of church fully ingrains the expectation that they WILL be baptized, that for many, the possibility of not being baptized is never presented or contemplated. In the case of my own baptism, it felt much like going to 3rd grade. I didn’t choose to go to 3rd grade. School was like a force of nature that just happened, and the thought of not going to 3rd grade would never have occurred to me. It was just something that happened. I might as well have chosen not to have the sun rise tomorrow. At the same time, I didn’t have any objections to going to 3rd grade or getting baptized. Neither school nor church was the highlight of my day, but they weren’t too bad, and sometimes it was fun and there were treats.
Love this post! I think the new trend helps assuage parents’ feelings of forcing their kids. By talking about it as a choice, it allows us to feel like we’re presenting both options and when they choose the “good one,” we can celebrate our parenting while knowing we didn’t coerce them.
My oldest was baptized about a year and a half ago. We offered him the option of not being baptized but we were honest with him. If he didn’t get baptized, he wouldn’t be included in everything- wouldn’t belong while everyone else was singing about looking for rainbows and the River Jordan. Gratefully because of Covid, he was baptized by himself, no other kids, we had no speakers, and he picked his favorite songs. The bishopric didn’t feel the need to stand up at the end and ramble. It was lovely. I’m not sure if my younger kids will be baptized at 8 but from my experience, kids raised in active families definitely don’t have the freedom to choose.
If you are in an active family, there is really no “choice” involved for the kid, it’s an expectation , where you are never really told you can say no (much like how going on a mission is for young men from these families).
On my mission we worked a lot with 8-10 year kids of inactive families, and even for them, there was a ton of pressure to get baptized, usually from active family members (do you really want to disappoint grandma? all your cousins got baptized, do you want to get left out?)
Really if you want to promote “agency” you need to something more akin to the Amish, and limit baptism to adults.
There was so much pressure around my oldest’s 8yo baptism that he did not have a real choice, even though my husband still thinks he did. There was a family reunion and another 8yo cousin was getting baptized there with all the extended family present. It was just assumed that our son would also. There was no way I was going to let him say no, even though I pretended like it was his choice for his sake, he also knew there was only one option. He went along with it because he had to. But when it came time for priesthood we gave him autonomy and he has said absolutely not. We have respected that. So he is unordained at 14. He participates in church as little as possible and I secretly applaud him. I wish I had awareness of my own preferences at his age. I probably would have chosen church, but it would have been nice for it not to be a choice between exaltation and damnation (which isn’t a choice at all).
We gave our second a true choice at 8yo, and he said no. Once he knew it was really his choice, there was no amount of manipulation that was going to get him to do it, try as my husband might. The boy seemed to pick up clearly on the vibe that this was a commitment to all the lifetime church milestones (as has now been openly voiced by coercive leaders) and he was not going to do that to himself. He is now 13, unbaptized and unordained. But he likes to attend church about 50% of the time and likes to hang out with church friends.
My argument for my boys, should I ever have to make it, is they respect the weightiness and significance of the commitments and will not make such big promises only because they had the right birthday and have the right genitals. I expect that to be honored. If others want them baptized/ordained they can try to make the church an institution worth making a lifelong commitment to. (And no, Mormon ordinances/covenants are not commitment to being a disciple of Jesus. They are commitments to the institution which claims to represent him.)
Our 8yo daughter has asked a few curious questions because she learns about baptism when she goes to Primary (about 50% of the time). We will wait for her to bring it up as her own interest and intention and if that time ever comes we will carefully assess whether it is from outside pressure or her own desire. Frankly, I don’t anticipate it happening any time soon if at all. She is fierce and independent and I can’t imagine her commiting to a sexist organization. Nothing in life will hold her back due to gender – except church would.
I personally remember being confused at 8 by what I was doing, but I knew it was important and wanted to be good. Many times later in my youth I wished I could go back and save the commitment for later. I still wanted the commitment – I was all in – but I wanted to really choose and feel the power of the ordinance.
Like Hawkgirl, I was forced into being baptized. My father was inactive and my grandfather had baptized both my brothers. I was afraid of having a stranger do it, and no one else that I knew was suggested. I kept reminding my grandfather about getting that Saturday off of the shift work he did at the local steel mill. But, he kept failing to get it off. And I would tell everybody, not this month because I am waiting till grandpa can do it. And he kept on with not bothering. I really got a picture about how very unimportant I was to people. It was finally the last month before I turned 9. Of course, if I turned 9, my baptism would come under the missionaries rather than the standard child of record baptism, and somehow that must doom me to hell. My grandmother threw a hissy fit….after not supporting me in getting her husband to get the day off work. And of course, the idea that my baptism could be done at sometime other than the standard Stake baptismal day was unthinkable. It just wasn’t done for the baby boomers. We were never individual children, but a herd of baby goats. My brothers had been important enough to my grandfather, but obviously I as a girl was not.
So, my mother just said it was happening, and to prove how unimportant I was, a stranger did the baptism and my mother was the only one who bothered to come. Because someone had to drive me to the stake center.
I have always felt that I was never really baptized because I never really had any control over it all, and it really wasn’t for me or about me at all, but about what the church needed done with me. It was a requirement that the church demanded. Nothing more.
All the talk about choice and how special it was just made it all feel worse.
I made sure that my children were listened to about what they wanted and what they were concerned with as far as the whole thing went. Then I stood up to the bishopric and said that this was what my child required and if not, then I supported the child in not going through with it.
Re: the language of “choosing to be baptized.” I’m not sure how new it is. I recall such language from my own baptism and my siblings baptisms 30-40 years ago. Perhaps we were unusual in my small hometown in Utah, but I never got the impression that we were starting a radically new trend at the time.
I can’t speak for others. Looking back on my own experience, I can see how excitement over a traditional rite of passage colored my desire to be baptized (as well as my desire to be ordained to different priesthood offices later). However, I also really did believe that God wanted me to get baptized and wanted to show God that I was willing to follow Him as best I could based on my understanding at the time, and I don’t feel like I have ever lost that desire to keep that basic (and vague) covenant — in spite of deconstructing and reconstructing the “fine print” of that covenant over the years. I agree that there’s a very real problem when we assume that an 8 year old (or even a brand new adult convert) understands and wholeheartedly and bindingly agrees to some of the “fine print,” but I think that many tweenager-ish youth are able to make a basic and vague covenant to do what God wants them to do.
If I could introduce an idea to the church, I would suggest that we acknowledge the vagueness of the covenant. Acknowledge that the covenant is between a person and God to do what that person thinks God wants them to do. Then allow people the freedom to explore their faith without as much expectation that everyone will follow the exact same, narrow “covenant path.” We can do our part to persuade people that something (like a mission) is part of their covenant path, but allow and encourage people to gain their own testimony, without the unspoken assumption that everyone will get the same testimony.
I don’t know if I said that clearly enough.
There is a related issue to whether baptism is a choice, and that is whether a covenant is made at baptism. We teach that covenants are made at baptism. We promise, for example, to mourn with those who mourn and suffer with those who suffer. And God promises that His spirit will always be with us. But I am not sure that any covenants are made, nor that there is any fine print that most of don’t read. I don’t know that I agreed to anything particular. My baptism, though not at 8 years, was an outward sign that I agreed to take’s Christ name on me, and not much more. Baptism and confirmation are the beginning, and one does not understand the terms of the journey ahead at the beginning.
Some people also teach that the sacrament renews the baptismal covenant, but I don’t think that is right. The sacrament has its own wonderful terms, and that might be a covenant by its own words. But what words or terms in the baptismal ordinance indicate a covenant? Baptism is an outward sign of an inward disposition to love Christ.
I baptized my children when each one reached 8, but for me it was more a rite of passage than a contractual action, an ordinance to be sure, but more of an expression of faith in Christ and His power to save than any agreement or promise that one would perform x action with expectation of y reward. I think that we might go beyond the mark when we find covenants where there are none. Baptism and confirmation mark the beginning of the journey, when we understand little but have faith–baptism is more of a sign than a covenant. Covenants will be made later, at marriage and in the temple, for example, when there are specific terms and promises, and those are choices made made by adults.
If you have an eternal perspective, it seems like waiting 10 extra years for baptism (18 vs 8) would be totally appropriate. Teach the kid for 18 years how to prepare for baptism as a consenting adult and then have them make that choice with some version of informed consent.
Instead, we try to lock them in early. We do a baptism at 8, a Patriarchal Blessing at x (x is earlier now then when I got mine at 18), and a mission at 18. It’s all about locking them in while they are still kids as opposed to preparing them for adult / eternal decisions when they are equipped to really make a CHOICE. Just sayin
No, it is not a choice, at least not in the spiritual realm that the church wants to believe it is a confirmation of. I can never shake the image of my mother standing before her two granddaughters after they “chose” baptism and regaling them with some fantastical story about how they are spiritually different now. “And don’t you feel different now that the spirit is with you?” she asked. “Yes,” they nodded, having no idea what she was talking about but not wanting to disappoint the adults. Choice requires awareness and understanding, and those things are not available in this context at 8 years old.
It might be debatable as to whether or not baptism is a choice if the church worked hard on informed consent in other areas, but they absolutely don’t. I “chose” to attend the temple but in truth had no idea what I was getting myself into because no one would tell me. I know … too sacred. If you can get people to go through all the rituals without telling them very much about them, after a while they are embedded and many are too afraid and embarrassed to leave and admit that they just went along with it and didn’t really know what they were doing.
For a church that puts so much importance on “free agency” as the thing we all fought for in the pre existence, the church sure doesn’t really like its member to have any control over the choices in life. From all the pressure at baptism, to not knowing anything about the temple before getting there, to telling people they already committed to a mission back when they were baptized, so now they don’t have any choice, to “the covenant path” determining everything from how many earrings a person wears to their underwear, everything in life is chosen for you by the church and this is “free agency.”
An indication that baptism is a sign, and not a covenant: D&C 68:25 puts the charge on parents to have their children baptized when eight years old. Nothing says that there is a choice for the child. Think back to ancient times, when parents were commanded to circumcise their sons as infants. There was no choice for the baby boy, but circumcision was a visible sign, as baptism is an outward sign. An adult male converting to Judaism would have to be circumcised as a visible sign. Today, adult converts are baptized as an outward sign, and children (whether infant males anciently or eight-year olds today) also receive the sign, at the instigation of their parents. Maybe there is no choice intended in child baptisms today: maybe it is the parents who are the actors, and not their children. In ancient and later societies, parents could also make marriage decisions for their adult children. To answer the OP’s second question, Do you think 8 year olds have the freedom to choose baptism?, I’m not sure that the Lord gives minor children the power to make such a choice. It falls on the parents.
jaredsbrother: Your comment reminded me of the seminal short story Salvation by Langston Hughes in which as a 13 year old he loses his faith due to all the social pressure requiring him to confess that he’s been saved when he didn’t feel anything at all.
Anna: Props to you for “herd of baby goats” as the most apt description of a group of 7-9 year olds that I can imagine.
With our push to lock them in younger and younger, I wonder if we’ll ever go to baptizing them all in January on the year they turn 8…
As a child I was taught that Jesus was baptized, even though He was perfect, as an example because we each need to be baptized to be able to get into Heaven. And that we would be washed clean from all our sins, even though technically we had no accountable sins because we were not of the age of accountability until age 8. After we were baptized, we could then receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and, bonus, become a real member of the Church.
There was no talk of covenants, mourning with those that mourn, no fine print. Baptism unlocked the gate leading to Heaven. I was a serious child and wanted to follow Jesus, yet when I turned 8, I balked at being baptized. Even then I thought that should happen when I was older. But I went ahead because the consequences of not doing it then were too scary (like, I could die in a car accident next month and if not baptized, no heaven for me).
It appears that over my many decades, talk and expectations around baptism have changed considerably. I’m confused as to when taking the sacrament became a renewal of the baptismal covenants they talk about today. And I agree, I think the rite would be more meaningful when performed later when the individual would be more capable of informed consent.
Fine discussion in post and comments.
Here’s another way to frame the “covenants” made at baptism. We talk about the sacrament as renewing those covenants. The Church seems to endorse the concept they need to be renewed, in other words that they expire if not renewed. Most memberships and subscriptions need to be renewed annually. That’s a good benchmark.
So it is quite reasonable to think that if someone stops attending church or continues to attend but declines to take the sacrament for one year, whatever covenants they made or did not make as an 8-year-old expire. If we continue to attend and take the sacrament regularly, we are ratifying our earlier covenants. If we don’t attend and don’t take the sacrament, those covenants expire. If years later we decide to go back and start taking the sacrament, we again renew those dormant covenants. Makes perfect sense, even by the Church’s own rhetoric.
To me, baptism is not a covenant; rather, it is an ordinance — there is no covenant at baptism (not at sacrament meeting). Latter-day Saints make covenants in the temple. I am aware that some Latter-day Saints have a different opinion.
…(nor at sacratemt meeting)…
I basically forced my oldest son to get baptized even though he didn’t want to. I was afraid of being seen as a bad mom, and I was starting to sense that something was ‘wrong” with my son and I desperately wanted him to be normal and hit all the right milestones. I regret it now. We got him diagnosed a few years later and I made some significant changes to how I parented him. He didn’t want to be ordained when he turned 12 and I shrugged and said okay. That’s also when he quit church altogether, with my full support.
By this point, his youngest brother was coming up on age 8. I really didn’t want him to be baptized, mostly because I didn’t want to have to plan the baptismal program and the party afterward. I kept reassuring him that he didn’t have to get baptized if he didn’t want. He wanted to. What he really wanted was the program and the party afterward, which was exactly the thing I wanted to avoid. So he got baptized and I put together a program and party. He beamed with joy all the way through that day, then begged to quit Church with his brother a couple months later.
I don’t remember much about my own baptism. I was fine with it. Everyone got baptized; it was just something you did, so I got baptized.
…(nor at sacrament meeting)… 😔
This conversation seems tied to the phenomenon of helicopter parents and the coddling of children in today’s society. If you want to see how extreme helicopter parenting has become- talk to professors who routinely adapt their communication to include the students’ parents.
200 years ago, as an 8 year old girl I would have been able to do the following- alone:
*start and maintain fires, light lamps and use candles
*use kitchen knives
*pluck chickens and clean fish
*do farm chores (using equipment and dangerous tools)
*ride, groom and manage horses and work with cows, bulls and oxen, large dogs, roosters, large and often aggressive pigs, etc.
*cook over fires
*babysit children (unsupervised)
*stay home if my parents went into town or took a small out-of-town trip.
*walk distances alone.
*play independently around the farm- in nature, etc. including around creeks and streams.
* go ice skating with other children, swimming, etc.
*work full-time in a mill or factory (tragically).
*be an apprentice to your father or a tradesperson.
Today, neighbors will call social services if a 8 year old is left alone routinely after school. Leaving younger children in the care of a 8 year old is neglect. And 5-6 year olds certainly don’t ride the metro alone (in the U.S.). Most kids are picked up at school by designated parents- not allowed to walk home alone and play outdoors until sunset or the dinner bell.
Back in the day when children were perceived as adults in small bodies, children grew up quicker. And, back in the day- being baptized was less institutionalized to the calendar and tied more closely to conversion.
I wish the answer was to help children think and act more independently, to encourage true more developmentally appropriate autonomy and choice entering the preteen years instead of dumbing down this to the age of 18.
Georgis, ji..
Thank you. I agree baptism isn’t a covenant. I recall a RS lesson some years ago, it was about the priesthood and talking for some reason about the oath and covenant of the priesthood. I said I had seen ordinations, but at no point did anyone take a formal oath or make a formal covenant so what precisely was this about? Someone said maybe it was like baptism.. yeah that wasn’t the helpful answer they thought it was.. instead led me to questioning the whole baptism as a covenant thing..
To the OP.. I don’t really remember much about my baptism. My dad did it. Another girl who shared my birthday was baptised at the same time. I have vague memories of being interviewed by the bishop beforehand. I thought it was on my birthday, my certificate states the following day, but when I queried that later when records were being checked prior to going digital and everyone had to take their certificates in, it got changed to my birthdate on the records. And now I wonder if I was right or the certificate was right, but I don’t suppose it really matters. I don’t recall it was choice as such, but I also don’t think I didn’t want to. Our family were assigned the short talks in Sunday school opening exercises shortly afterwards, and I had to say something about my baptism. I didn’t really feel anything much about it, and the card I have with my very brief talk pretty much just says that I was baptised and that the water felt like fishes on my face (how would I even know?.. I guess it was suggested I talked about how it felt..and that was the only thing I could come up with ).
Many good thoughts shared in the post and comments. I especially like what Dave B wrote, explaining that it is the renewal of our covenants that sustains those covenants. When we choose not to renew a covenant, it becomes dormant. And there lies our agency. We always have it. No matter what “covenants” we made at 8 or 18 or 25, we are always choosing to what degree we sustain or renew those covenants.
I also like what Georgis wrote. A child baptism is a sign of the parent’s faith. It should also be a sign of the child’s faith. The accountability for the child is not that they are making a lifelong commitment to the Church and its leadership, but that they desire to follow God and keep God’s commandments. They desire this. To suppose that a child choosing to be baptized binds that child for life to do everything church leaders demand is flat out wrong. Agency ALWAYS comes first in the Plan of Salvation. Without agency there can be no righteousness. It reasons that for righteousness to exist throughout our lives, then agency must exist throughout our lives.
And agency does persist throughout our lives. Especially so in regards to a member’s relationship to the church. One can always leave, and many choose to do so. I find it bizarre the way some church leaders talk to members as if the membership is under contract to the leaders. This attitude is extremely damaging to the faith of members and it is damaging to the church. Jesus invited disciples to follow him. He did not command or compel followers. He invited them. Disciples choose to follow Jesus, and to keep following him. We benefit personally from knowing we are making that choice. Not just once in their lifetime. But every day that we choose to rely on God we are blessed by the power of that decision. The teaching that we gave up our ability to choose due to something we did many years previous denies the power of God that should exist in our lives today.
I’m impressed by the detail in your account. This must have been very important to you. In my case, the only thing I remember about my baptism is that a schoolmate of mine, Cynthia, was so scared of the water that she clung to the railing and cried and refused to be baptized. Odd that this is the only memory I have of that significant day.
Good comment there Disciple.
I once attended a family baptism of a child and was slightly bothered to hear a cheery lecture directed at the child regarding their newly empowered ability to commit sin, and the steps of repentance as a remedy for lost spiritual purity. I felt the ick of inappropriate and became thoughtful about what one might truthfully say to a child about our doctrines of sin, repentance, and being washed clean in the waters of baptism.
The doctrine of being washed clean from previous sin doesn’t apply to children at the legalistic age of 8, which caused our OP some worry. But using the fear of guilt on a child is a clumsy and negative way to teach them, and that method is so commonly applied to all of us, that we meekly accepted it. Totally normal.
What a loving Parent might teach their 8-year-old child could be about the opportunity now given them by their agency in choosing baptism, to be in the adult world of repentance, and that they can begin to learn about it by experience. Also, I wouldn’t teach the proverbial “steps of repentance” as the official way; there are many more ways to repent beyond those. And many more ways to expand on the topic of repentance in a positive, age-appropriate way.
I barely remember my own baptism. It was the herd of baby goats kind, at our stake center on a Saturday. I remember the water was warm. I remember driving home in my Sunday dress with wet hair and being baited by older siblings to get angry and ruin my clean slate. But I don’t remember anything else. It was a duty that my parents and I had executed, and we all could now move forward in that dissociative way that too many church members have.
My dress floated up too! I was so frightened about my new ability to sin that my most powerful memory of my baptism is shivering alone in the changing rooms afterward, wondering if I’d somehow managed to mess everything up already because I’d been momentarily naked in a church building. Weirdly, I’d been writing about my baptism and comparing it to a friend’s daughter’s bat mitzvah right when I saw this post.
Relevant snip: Two Priesthood holders looked down into the font, checking that my father nailed every word of the prayer and that I was completely immersed after “amen”. A floating skirt and a toe that popped up as I leaned back meant I had to be dunked three times before the requirements of the ritual were met and I became a member of the Church. Looking back, I was more an object on display than an actual participant. There is no scope for baptizees to open their mouths and share their thoughts.
https://mainstreetplaza.com/2023/06/14/the-impossible-things-a-mormon-can-see-at-a-bat-mitzvah/
Thanks, Angela. I had never read that short story before. The church we come from seems to have learned better than to tell people they will see Jesus.
My son just turned 8 and will be baptized soon. I think it’s fair to say he chose it. I’m out of the church and my wife is at least partially in, and we both had discussions with him ensuring him that he really doesn’t have to do it. He wants to, but I think, like Janey’s story, a lot of it is because he wants the celebration and wants to be like his cousins and friends. This will be the first major childhood church event that I won’t be performing for my family (3 blessings and one baptism for his older brother.) This is hard for me, and I have a lot of conflicting thoughts, but my first priority is to make sure that it is a meaningful experience for my son.
I wish that my wife could perform the baptism if she wanted to.
I don’t believe that Joseph Smith actually restored anything, but I do believe in traditions and rituals and things in between, and of course that they should not be compulsory and should be reviewed and updated now and then. I believe in marking important life stages in meaningful ways, and baptism, if nothing else, is that.
When my wife took my son in to be interviewed (she chose to be in the room during the interview) the bishop mentioned to her that, if I wanted, he might be able to approve me to perform the baptism. He told her that as a priesthood holder (I haven’t removed my records) I could be approved by the bishop to perform the baptism even though I’m not temple worthy (I drink coffee and don’t pay tithing.) I haven’t ever talked to this bishop 1:1, but he seems like a pretty nice guy. My son had already asked his grandpa, my dad, to perform the baptism. I resolved that if my son wanted me to do the baptism I would at least try. He said he was comfortable with his choice and since he’d already asked my dad he didn’t want to change that. I don’t know if I would have been able to do it anyway, I would imagine that a lack of belief or even hope in the restoration would disqualify me, but I don’t know. I also wondered if this was a way to get me in to talk to the bishop 1:1. I’d like to believe not, because again, he’s a pretty nice guy, but when I was a TBM that’s the kind of thing I might have done.
Of my 3 children, this one is the one who most *likes* the church. The singing, the art, being obedient and submissive, getting dressed up, etc. The other 2 seem as though they could take it or leave it. Also of my 3 children, this is the one who, I think, is the least likely to be perfectly straight/cis-het. I worry that a day will come when he realizes that the church that he actually kinda likes, or maybe even loves, doesn’t have a place for him. For me, this was never a problem. I hated church, in whole and it part, from childhood through adulthood, so when I left it was nothing but fresh air and I’ve never looked back. For him, it might be much harder.
I am glad that I don’t have to be the one in a grey-ish white, poorly fitting jumpsuit.
My parents let us choose. Missionaries gave discussions, and I was ten before I “chose” to be baptized. Other siblings got baptized from 8 to 11 years old—all their own choice. My firstborn son pondered baptism and also chose for himself—no pressure. He waited until after 9 years old to be baptized. No regrets. Let the Little Ones exercise agency, and they will own their choices.
I think the key is to groom a child with as much love and patience as possible–because there are certain things that they simply have to do–or should not do–because of who and what they are. How many of us allow our children to chose whether or not to go to school–or get some kind of education–when they’re young? Or whether or not to do their chores–especially those who live on farms or work in a family business? Or whether or not to stay up late? Or whether or not to say bad words? Or bully other children? Or play with fire in the back yard?
I think the same can be said for religious observance. I went to church as a kid because that’s what my family did. I didn’t need any more justification than that–though, over time I learned that there were better reasons for living the gospel than the mere fact that it was a family tradition. I think the same can be said for baptism. A child doesn’t need to know all of the whys and wherefores about the ordinance–only enough to understand that it is following Jesus’ example of keeping the commandments.
Jack. The difference is parents aren’t posting on social media how proud they are their first grader chose to prioritize their education. Parents realize their first grader went to school because it was expected of them, not because they chose this.
If parents choose the same path re Church attendance, cool. But don’t pretend it was a choice.
I agree Chadwick. I have no problem with baptism being the result of an expectation–so long as parents try to be as loving as possible and avoid coercion when leading their child to fulfill that expectation.
Re: Congratulating the Child for Her Choice: I think it’s appropriate to compliment the child for getting baptized. And if there is a distinct sense that she made her own choice to do so–then by all means compliment her for making a good choice. Even so, if we’re uncomfortable bringing the idea of choice into the equation we can compliment her for the important step she’s taking–much like we do with children who are moving up into higher grades or schools or what-have-you.
Aaaach!, nothing annoys me more than the phrase “choosing” to be baptized. They didn’t choose to be baptized, they were conditioned to be baptized, and there is very little difference between baptizing an 8-year-old and baptizing an infant, really. 8-year-olds are still of the age where they will do what you tell them to. Just yesterday, my 8-year-old and I were talking about Muslims and Christians and he paused for a moment to ask, “wait, are we Muslim?” His mom teaches him Mormonism nearly every day. He is unaware of religion. Unaware of doctrine. Unaware that his Muslim classmates are drastically different from him. Please stop saying that they’re choosing. They’re not. They’re so not. It is not as if they were presented by a choice of religions, “here is Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, and Catholicism, you can choose which one you want to be.” They don’t know what they’re doing. They don’t know how passive-aggressive adults are going to leverage that “choice” against them when they’re older and they suddenly say that they don’t want to church, often based on a more real informed choice. “But you made a decision!!!!,” they’ll shout. “You made a sacred covenant!!!!” You have no more choice. We control you with shame now.
Plus, I’d like to hear a story, just one story, of an 8-year-old choosing not to be baptized and the parents saying that they respected the choice of the child. Please. “Choose” to be baptized my ace.
Jack. Agree with your last comment.
My oldest son didn’t want to be baptized at 8. Months later he said he wanted after we talked to him about it . He said he did but wanted his grandpa to do it. Sadly tensions existed with his Dad which continue throughout the teenage years. Today he feels that religion was imposed on him and he didn’t have a choice. None served missions which made me feel like a failed LDS mother. As a convert I was baptized as as a teenager. I wanted to follow Christ but I also wanted a picture perfect family that the Church portrayed that I didn’t have. My youngest son is 12 and has not attended the temple. In my calling I am de facto in a temple committee. Without a temple recommend by choice I feel like a hypocrite. So what started with baptism and a desire to follow Christ turned into a much deeper internal conflict between my heart and loyalty to an organization.
Burana, thank you for sharing your experience. I have no words but it was helpful for me to hear it.
I was born a premmie and in and out of the hospital for the first year of my life. For that reason and some others,i was never baptized as a baby. Being catholic,i attended mass with my parents over the years,but never was baptized or made my First Holy Communion. Finially when i was 14 and in 8th grade,my parents and great aunt Mary finially had me baptized during sunday mass.I wanted to show God that i was ready to become a child of him and enter his kingdom. My parents bought me the traditional,white,short sleeve,poofy,knee length baptism dress and matching bonnet with the lace anklets and white maryjane shoes.Great aunt Mary provided the traditional white tee shirt and the cloth baptism diaper and plastic pants that are traditionally worn under the poofy dresses by the tween and teen girls. Two hours before mass,mom and GA Mary dressed me in the outfit in the parish nursery and i felt very pure and innocent like a baby!At my party,everyone thought i looked cute and babyish which made me feel worthy of being a child of God! The next year when i was 15,i made my First Holy Communion with the 7 year olds and wore the poofy communion dress and veil with my baptism lace anklets and the maryjane shoes.My baptism tee shirt and the diaper and plastic pants were put on me again and worn under my communion dress.I felt just like the little girls in my class!