My discussion of the debate between Stephen Smoot and Heartlander Johnathan Neville prompted a discussion of another topic in the comments that I want to expound upon here. The myth of the traditional apologetic style has been around for a long time. I’ve never seen examples of this style. What I have seen is the usual inter group dynamics on both sides of the debate that can be found in politics, sports, military units, and even debates about television. Labeling one side of the debate as mean when both are similar in behavior also shows an astounding double standard.
First the double standard: Years ago William Hamblin was very upset with the new direction of the Maxwell Institute and made some criticisms of Ben Park. The watch dogs of FARMS attack dogs erupted with disdain and jeering for more of the “traditional style” and mean apologetics that was damaging to a junior scholar and tried to make him lose his job.
Yet I found a similar example with the situation reversed. A short time later David Bokovoy sided with the MI people supposedly under attack. In his defense he specifically called out Stephen Smoot among others in harsh terms. Instead of saying it was unwise, mean, or nasty for a senior scholar to call out a junior scholar, and the potential damage it could do to his career, the same people that criticized Hamblin praised Bokovoy for speaking truth to power and unmasking the evil apologists. Both individuals were criticizing someone’s behavior, but when it was done by the supposedly superior new direction folks it was brave and praise worthy but when done by Peterson, Hamblin or Smoot, it was mean and nasty.
The myth of the mean Dan Peterson and old school apologists has grown into an article of faith in some circles. I’m not defending every interaction he or they’ve ever had, or every article they have ever written or published, but I believe this myth of an arching style is unfairly attached to them. Proponents of the attack style might point to Ralph Hancock’s words when he defended “sharpness of tone,” “irony,” and “measured indignation” (Perspectives on Mormon Theology: Apologetics, p. 98.) I’m not denying those styles exist, but I am saying that for whatever behavior you criticize about FARMS you can find the same or similar behavior on the other side.
The Interpreter writes negative reviews of books as does the new direction Maxwell Institute. Both sides have rolled their eyes at the other and disagree about methods. I have personal correspondence that includes petty behavior from the supposedly superior new direction folks. I’ve been asked gotcha questions at conferences by new direction folks and it went without comment. When Hamblin and Gee asked a difficult question, it became another example of the mean FARMS people. In one nasty incident, a new direction individual literally got in the face of an old school apologist at a conference and told him to go to hell.
The behavior seen on both sides is a result of group and inters group dynamics that include several factors. It is common to view “the other” as a monolith group that is different, mean, stupid, and then view every interaction through that filter. This has especial value in political discussions and I’m sure the readers of this post are ready to jump in the comments with their examples of mopologists. The discussion among groups of like minded individuals often uses a short hand and simplistic view of opponent’s beliefs and mocks them. Sometimes people who are normally kind and decent get stuck in the mire of online debates, having a bad day, and in many cases the individuals are behaving less than their better selves. When these less than stellar behaviors are coupled with inter-group dynamics the behaviors are more easily seen in the other side and furthers divides the two. This happens even though their behavior in incredibly similar. Historian Richard Hofstader pointed out this ironic fact in his classic essay, The Paranoid Style in American Politics, pointed out how opposition groups often become what they oppose. “The enemy may be the cosmopolitan intellectual, but the paranoid will outdo him in the apparatus of scholarship, even of pedantry. Secret organizations set up to combat secret organizations give the same flattery. The Ku Klux Klan imitated Catholicism to the point of donning priestly vestments, developing an elaborate ritual and an equally elaborate hierarchy.” But the FARMS people are mean and nasty and we poop rainbows.
This post isn’t an attempt to categorize every interaction and the entire groups and sub groups of scholars, critics, and interested individuals. As churchistrue can testify, trying to categorize people can get messy very quickly. Personally I have no problems with either side. I’ve submitted to both the new direction Maxwell Institute and Interpreter, and I’ve published several pieces with the latter. I’m very proud to publish with an organization that still cares about the AR and not just the MS part of FARMS. And that’s why I think it was created, not so it can continue to be “mean” and “nasty.” I can’t speak for every publication of course, and there was one piece by Duane Boyce that had a multitude of serious issues, but even that doesn’t reflect or prove the myth of mean and nasty apologists. (Ironically enough, I really liked his book so even his case isn’t simple.)
In conclusion, I think the behavior of various groups within, outside, and about Mormonism are closer in behavior than many think. I think that because of incredibly specific examples of behavior I’ve seen from both sides, but also because of what I’ve seen around the internet in debates about every subject, and because of what I’ve gathered about group dynamics. This post isn’t an invitation to discuss that one time (or many) an apologist was mean to you, or to express your disdain for Dan Peterson, but to offer a thoughtful reconsideration of common ideas.

Here’s my thoughtful reconsideration: individuals can definitely behave badly on both sides of the fence. If a flagship publication on one side adopts an “impish sense of humor” for entertainment value that knowingly offends people (as described by the chief editor), one side is going to get a bad reputation very quickly.
“impish sense of humor” from a “flagship publication”. You mean like the editors at Greg Kofford deliberately taking a quote out of context to “troll” a competitor?http://www.withoutend.org/ghoulish-tactics-dan-peterson-fiendish-apologetics/
I like Loyd and Brian and thought the joke was funny, I simply bring this up because it reinforces the main point of my post, that whatever supposedly unique negative behaviors you attribute to Dan Peterson or whatever boogey man you’ve imagined, I can point to similar or worse behaviors from the other side. I know I’ve waved a red flag in front of critical bulls, but I hope people would actually reconsider their positions instead of offering a perfunctory acknowledgement of my point and then immediately contradicting it by repeating their article of faith.
Both sides need to grow up. You don’t justify bad behavior by saying the other side does it also. This is all very embarrassing for the Church.
As an early participant in the kinds of debates highlighted here, I admit to having found it difficult to have the characters of women and men I admire called into question. At the same time, I know that in such situations I’ve sometimes found myself responding in ways I wish I hadn’t. Righteous indignation–or what we tell ourselves passes as such–is no excuse. I’d like to think that I’ve matured. But it sometimes seems like a daily battle, and I have to remind myself constantly of the kind of person I’d like to be.
Morgan, you used the arguments I specifically made in a previous comment to help craft this post, so I felt obligated to offer a response. Feel free to delete the comment. I will bow out.
I noted that Mary Ann’s comment did not say which “side” would be getting a bad reputation very quickly. With some of us, it might well be both. The rhetoric has sometimes so escalated that no sense of humor and no “measured indignation” is perceivable, at least by those who do not know the writers personally.
Roger Hanson: What part of my response wasn’t “grown up?” In my post I said at least three times that I don’t defend bad behavior and I called another incident sad. I’m arguing against a myth that has developed not defending bad behavior. Though one of the problems is that slightly sharp book review, pointed question at a conference, or similar elbows thrown in academia are labelled
as “bad behavior” and then used to delegitimize the arguments being made. That factor of having that myth make people pre judge events and arguments in negative fashion actually hurts the discussion.
I doubt you care about such a distinction because you would rather finger wag or strike Olympian poses above the fray, but the point is important and my timing turned out to be really good as Interpreter just published a negative book review that has inspired the same tired myths. So instead of discussing an important book in Mormon studies and an important review the same debate from the last 20 years is happening all over again.
You might have been referring to my comment to Mary Ann. That and all the other examples wasn’t two wrongs making a right, but showing how the mean and nasty myth makes people believe that one side is being nasty when they aren’t, and then uses that as ammunition for the supposedly superior side when really they are blanks all around. Things like a negative book review, a joke that wasn’t taken well by the other side, sarcasm and whatever else you come up with are just normal parts of inter group dynamics.
I would add, that the striking a fabulous moral pose above the fray is another part of inter group dynamics as well. I challenge you to go on social media or listen to conversations and see how many people say stuff like, “I’m not voting because all the politicians are horrible.” That is sermonizing that takes the easy way out in multiple ways. It lets you make an argument without worrying about tone because it is so simplistic and cloaked in moralism it lets you feel superior and wash your hands of the incident. It absolves you of the need to study the issues and even try to persuade people to your side. But people still interact with each other, we still have multiple journals and many strong willed and smart people discussing the gospel, and we still have to have a government. My point remains important, I agree that bad behavior is bad, but you aren’t helping.
Morgan, You or I misread Roger. I didn’t read his “you” as directed to you. He did not call you out by name, nor did he indicate that he was disagreeing with the OP. I thought his “you” was a general “you”, meaning “one can’t justify bad behavior by saying the other side does it also.” If my reading was correct, he was essentially agreeing with you and not striking any above-the-fray moral pose. Maybe he’ll tell us if my reading was correct.
Good point JR. In providing a word of caution perhaps I became a cautionary example. I’m sorry if thats the case. Best wishes, I’m off the for the night and likely the weekend so please behave. (Its my birthday tomorrow so I can’t imagine anything worse than being on here arguing for it.)
Lack of respect and unity costs everyone in some way.
It is also the adversary’s joy I am sure.
I appreciate the article and discussion. However, I must say that while both sides can be pretty vile and crass – one side really is trying to defend “the one and only true church on the face of the earth” and to do so (one would think) that it may be helpful to act in a more Christlike manner. Please note the following exchange on Dan Peterson’s blog:
Wayfarer25 • 3 months ago
I am as you say. I’m just some guy (a nobody really) who happens to be angry and dischanted with the church, and the culture, I was born into. I’m not in any kind of position to do anyone and/or anything much harm. All I can do is vent. However, I perceive that you are a faithful Latter Day Saint and a Defender of the Faith (no snide-ness intended) and that is where my curiosity lies. If I agree that all that you’ve said above is true – and that you win – will you answer my question? Are you proud of the way you defend the church – and do you think LDS Church Leadership would be proud of the methods and lanquage you use with others?
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Kiwi57 Wayfarer25 • 3 months ago
I’m not getting sucked into that game. Is there something specific about which you’d like me to comment?
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Wayfarer25 Kiwi57 • 3 months ago
Are you proud of the manner in which you defend The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? No games. Just curious.
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Kiwi57 Wayfarer25 • 3 months ago
This is just silly. Are you proud of the way you attack the Church of Jesus Christ, and of your expressed willingness to employ any means, whether fair or foul, in that endeavour?
If you pick out a particular paragraph I’ve written and tell me what you think is wrong with it, I can respond. But I have no interest in allowing you to turn Dan’s blog into a debate about me.
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Wayfarer25 Kiwi57 • 3 months ago
No, I’m not particularly proud of myself or of what I’ve said and done at times. I’ve agreed with your synopsis of me and my behaviour. You’re right about me. Are you proud of the manner in which you defend The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
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Kiwi57 Wayfarer25 • 3 months ago
I’m not aware of any obligation to answer questions that are offered merely for rhetorical effect. I’ve responded to this one twice. Your badgering is rising to the level of harassment.
It seems to me that if you had anything specific to accuse me of, you would have done so by now; and with relish, too.
Your question implies that you think I’ve said something of which I ought to be ashamed. Do you? And if so, what?
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agkcrbs Wayfarer25 • 3 months ago
Oh, a young FATHER! How precious. Let me wipe a tear… that does not quite form, as I think of the moral deprivation you may have given your children, which for somebody with your background could amount to neglect and malice, tossing them, perhaps, from your boat into the tempest of the depraved delusions of an increasingly brainwashed and enslaved modern society with an almost universal addiction to drugs. You’re not some special victim, buddy — the Church “betrays” everybody, stretching and breaking their faith by design — and besides that, every confused, ignorant person, if they awake, always wakes up to find themselves “lied to”, though it was their own brains doing the lying. But not everybody lashes out at their family because of it.
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Wayfarer25 agkcrbs • 3 months ago
So, an open question to you, Kiwi and a handful of others. If by chance (which of course isn’t going to happen) a transcript of these dialogues were to make their way onto the agenda of the LDS First Presidency & Quorum of the 12’s weekly agenda do you think they would embrace you folks and say “well done thou good and faithful servant – we’re really proud of you guys”? And would they say – “This is exactly how we would like the church to be represented and defended – and reflects how Christ would do it”. “As we look back over the history of the Church this is the kind of dialogue we should have been having – pushing back with-teeth.” “The LDS Church becomes stronger and more vital by participating in on-line dog fights”.
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agkcrbs Wayfarer25 • 3 months ago
What do you think we are, campaigning for apostlehood? The Church has a particular ecclesiastical or corporate jurisdiction complete with a crucial self-interest that I can’t begrudge it, but that’s as far as its oversight goes. We are all equal men, all called equally to know God and be prophets, with or without the community’s ratification. Our equal goal is the Truth that we presume defines us, our religion, our God (or godlessness), and all things. If LDS have any common measure, it’s the example of Jesus, who — unlike his cartoon Care-Bearish caricature today — was in his own day famously stringent in his rebuttals. Jesus’ “dog fights” fill the four gospels, though he was no harsher than the many fearless prophets before him, nor even early LDS leaders before the Church’s consumerization.
I happily grant your inference that you want to be treated humanely, as Joseph Smith said he wanted to as a boy, and I hope you don’t think anybody here wishes you ill or views you negatively, outside of the context of specific points of contention. But, as you’re the one starting these debates (good for you, for speaking your mind), if your opponents start to seem harsh in response, instead of trying to manipulate them with shame, just stop picking the fights, or phrase your ideas less provocatively. Please don’t take battles of ideas personally. I’ll stand with you against all these good brothers, until we’re banned together, if only there’s some truth we can agree on.
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I’ve been off line for days.
Then I read this and the comments.
Interesting.
I have no idea what this is all about but over several decades of living I am glad that religion and politics always provide fodder for argument!
Stephen Marsh – did you once live in the La Crescenta Ward California?