Imagine you’re a teenager. You’re going through an awkward time in your life, wrestling with feelings of inadequacy and self-doubt. Self-confidence is in short supply and you’re social credibility is vitally important to you.
You’re LDS and have been both baptized and confirmed. You’re active in the church community and even hold one of those youth temple recommends. Sure, you screw up sometimes but, overall, you’re doing a pretty good job of following what you’ve been taught.
You’ve chosen to hang out with friends this evening and, over the objection of your parents, you’ve gone with your friends to a party. You told your parents that it’s a clean party, but you know it’s not. The booze will be flowing and marijuana will be plentiful. You know you shouldn’t be there but you don’t want to be a social pariah. As the night rolls on you engage in activity that you know to be a violation of your standards. You drink your first beer and take a drag from your first joint.
The next day, a Sunday, you hear a lesson in Sunday School that describes how parties such as the one you attended drive away the Holy Spirit. The Spirit cannot abide sin so you need to live worthy of the constant companionship of the Spirit. You’re told that, if you engage in activities like you did the previous night, you’re unworthy of the Spirit, causing the Spirit to withdraw. The teacher quotes Elder Bednar, who stressed the importance of being worthy of the Spirit. You feel despondent. You can’t repent and tell your parents. They’ll bring the hammer down on you. Perhaps you won’t be worthy of the Spirit. Perhaps you’re just not worthy at all…
All of us have probably been taught in some way that our actions can offend the Holy Spirit, driving the Spirit away, and that the only way we can remain worthy of the constant companionship of the Spirit is to keep the commandments. In my view, that’s nonsense.
The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is the presence of God on earth and was promised by Jesus to be our teacher and advocate in his absence. Jesus was the distinct revelation of God into the world and the Holy Spirit would be the continuing presence of God among his people, empowering them to function as the embodiment of God’s kingdom on earth. This is why Paul speaks of our bodies being the temples of the Holy Spirit, equating the presence of God in us with the presence of God in his ancient temples:
But anyone united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him…Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God, and that you are not your own?
1 Corinthians 6:17,19
Just as the temple was God’s house, evidenced by his presence within it, so we are God’s temple, indicated by his presence within us (e.g., the Holy Spirit).
Gift of the Holy Spirit
John the Baptist spoke of one who would follow him, baptizing with the Holy Spirit rather than the water with which John baptized. All four Gospels provide testimony that, following Jesus’ own baptism, the Holy Spirit descended upon him while God proclaimed him as the Son. Paul and early Christians taught that the Holy Spirit’s descent upon Jesus was his anointing – the moment he was revealed as The Anointed One (i.e., Messiah/Christ).
Early Christians taught that the reception of the Holy Spirit served as a similar anointing for believers, and that such an anointing sealed us as God’s children.
In him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit; this is the pledge of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s own people, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:13And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with which you were marked with a seal for the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:30But it is God who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us, by putting his seal on us and giving us his Spirit in our hearts as a first installment.
1 Corinthians 1:21-22But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and all of you have knowledge.
1 John 2:20As for you, the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and so you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, abide in him.
1 John 2:27
The reception of the Holy Spirit, the baptism John the Baptist spoke of, is the Gift of the Holy Spirit. It is that baptism to which Jesus refers when he tells Nicodemus:
Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be astonished that I said to you, ‘You must be born from above.’ The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.
John 3:5-8
The reception of the Holy Spirit following one’s baptism was the sign that God had accepted that person into the family of God. As Paul mentioned, it is a seal from God; a pledge or covenant of one’s inheritance. It represented the promise from God that one was accepted as was Christ. That is indeed a gift, given by the reception of the Holy Spirit, and is only given by God.
What I’m driving at is the idea promulgated within the LDS Church, that the gift of the Holy Spirit is some sort of special companionship given only to members of the LDS Church, cannot be sustained by teachings in the New Testament. In the LDS Church we’re taught that, following the laying on of hands by some guys with priesthood authority, we now get some special, super companionship and access to God. Not only do the New Testament scriptures teach something different, our lived experience belies the idea as well, for we all know non-Mormons who exhibit the fruits of the Spirit as well as any Mormon does. We know people who have a close relationship with God and are just as in tune with God as is a Mormon. There is no difference and we know it, yet we persist with the teaching that we’ve got some sort of companion who spooks at the slightest sight of sin, abandoning us precisely in the moment when we are most in need of God’s presence.
The Example of Jesus
In fact, the idea that God is some sort of shrinking violet in the face of sin, abandoning sinners in their time of need by withdrawing his presence, is proven false by the example of Jesus Christ, who was God’s presence made flesh. Jesus repeatedly stated that he merely followed the example of the Father:
Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise.
John 5:19
And what did Jesus do? He ate with sinners, hung out with publicans, chose not to accuse an adulterer, touched the unclean, spoke with the impure, and brought faith to those who lacked it. He spent his time with the broken, unclean, sinners in society. On the cross he took God’s presence directly to the most shameful, debased place within the community, and died the death of a traitor and brigand to do so.
The example of Jesus demonstrates that God reaches out to those in need precisely when they are in need, not after they have proven themselves worthy by keeping his commandments. Jesus took God’s presence to the sinner. He didn’t sit back and wait for them to first get their life right before he graced them with his presence.
Changing Our Discourse
I think we do a grave disservice to our youth and anyone else in need of God’s reassurance when we imply that they must be “worthy” of God’s grace and presence. God has proven through the example of Jesus Christ that he is perfectly willing to take his presence to those in need when they need it. He’s no shrinking violet who abandons us in the time of our greatest need. It is through his presence that we are changed. This should be the message we give to our youth and anyone else struggling with feelings of inadequacy before God. God will not abandon them. That promise from him can provide the strength they so desperately need. That is the gift of the Holy Spirit: the knowledge that they are sealed as his by the reception of the Holy Spirit, anointed by God as heirs in his kingdom. That baptism of the Spirit is an empowering sign from God, a token of his covenant grace, and it is truly a gift.
Wheat & Tares 
Amen. On my list of potential posts I had something along the lines of this post. I often look at God as a parent to try and understand him. Being a parent and feeling the love for my kids, I can’t imagine that I am going to make things harder for my kids when they mess up a bit. That is the equivalent of my kid calling from a party and telling me he is too drunk to drive home and me saying, “You got yourself into this mess, so you have to get yourself out!” Where is the love in that? I feel the same about those that claim God’s love is conditional.
Beautifully stated. Thank you.
A sister who was excommunicated told me know that the Holy Spirit didn’t leave her. . Through some difficulty times, she felt uplifted and led by God.
I have wondered about the Gift. What is given? How is that different from the relationship God has with the rest of His children. What if anything is “extra”.
All the amens. The idea that one must be “worthy” of God’s grace and companionship through the Spirit is both untrue and deeply harmful. In fact, I find all of our discourse about “worthiness” unsupportable in scripture and damaging, especially for our youth.
Wonderful post. Fear of losing Gods love because we make a mistake just does not belong in any teaching in any church.
So the commandment to grieve not the Spirit actually means we can’t do that. I’ll have to study that exegesis more to understand your point.
Thanks Cody.
This reminded me of a friend whose wife was excommunicated for adultery. She insisted the spirit led her as the affair was going to lead to a great job. It didn’t.
I’m not sure that the spirit she felt was with her was the same one that is on the side of the angels.
Cody I would be careful the scriptures Clearly say that members who teach false Doctrine will be cursed
Damascene: The gift is the knowledge that you have been sealed as God’s. In ancient times the seal indicated ownership or authority over something, so when you are sealed God’s then he is claiming you as his. In 1 Corinthians Paul refers to it as an “installment”, or earnest money, on our future inheritance as God’s children. To speak of the Holy Spirit in such a way is to imply a contractual bond on the part of God. That is the gift, and it can come upon people without them understanding it, as in the cases of Apollos and Cornelius. I think the combination of baptism by water (dying into Christ, as Paul calls it) and baptism by the Spirit (sealing by God as one receives the Spirit and is changed) are the signs of discipleship.
Stephen: The Greek word translated there as “grieve” means to make sad, offend, or distress. Indeed, when we sin I imagine we do sadden God. We know better, but he knows we will sin, so he doesn’t run away. It is the purifying presence of the Holy Spirit that helps us repent and try better. That knowledge that we are loved despite our failings should give us the confidence to move forward and be better rather than wallow in sadness at our mistake. He deemed us worthy despite knowing we’d fail, and our reception of the Holy Spirit is his sign to us that we are indeed loved and accepted.
Wonderful piece, Cody and I don’t disagree with you. I just wonder what your response would be to people who bring up scriptures like:
“My Spirit shall not always strive with man,”
“But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the Lord troubled him.”
Stephan,
Your comment is curious. The fact that someone misinterpreted the influence of the spirit, and used it as a justification to do evil, cannot reasonably be misconstrued to indicate that the spirit deserts us. Everyone, all the time, is in constant struggle to choose the voice of the spirit over the seductions of evil.
Both voices speak to us constantly, it is up to us to choose which we follow.
KMarkP: That verse from Genesis 6:3 appears in a difficult passage in clearly odd Hebrew. The text translated as “strive” is uncertain in meaning, and the entire section there is quite problematic. There are several good scholarly works that cover this section as part of their study. Essentially, due to the problematic nature of the text, I punt on this one and am quite skeptical of any claim to a definitive understanding of the text.
As for the verses about Saul, again, I hold some of the OT at arm’s length. Whenever I read of God hardening Pharaoh’s heart, or sending an evil spirit to someone, I am on alert. I am not a scriptural literalist and understand that the OT is a work of an Iron Age society trying to describe their religious heritage. At the end of the day, if I believe Jesus was the revelation of the nature of God, then I’m going to look at what he did and how those closest to him understood him. He didn’t shrink from sinners but took God’s presence to them. The idea of Jesus going to the sinners, unafraid of their “impurity”, sends the message to them that they are indeed worthy of God’s love and grace. That type of thing changes hearts.
Cody-Thanks for taking the time and effort to express your understanding of the Holy Spirit. I am pressed for time, so I can’t get into this subject as I would like.
I couldn’t help but notice you didn’t provide a talk from a GA to support your main thesis. I would like to see a talk from a GA or a church manual that teaches what you object to. You wrote: “I think we do a grave disservice to our youth and anyone else in need of God’s reassurance when we imply that they must be “worthy” of God’s grace and presence.”
I suggest you consider the difference between the light of Christ and the Holy Ghost. For example, in the Book of Mormon, Mosiah 3:19 teaches:
For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father. (Book of Mormon | Mosiah 3:19)
This verse makes it clear that the Holy Spirit entices every person to put off the natural man. This enticing won’t stop unless a person totally rejects it. By the way, the Holy Spirit is not the Holy Ghost in this verse according to Elder McConkie. The light of Christ entices, not the Holy Ghost.
“The Holy Ghost does not strive or entice; his mission is to teach and testify. But those who heed the enticements and submit to the strivings of the Holy Spirit (which is the light of Christ) are enabled to receive the Holy Spirit (which is the Holy Ghost).” New Witness to the Articles of Faith by Elder Bruce R. Mc Conkie, page 260
The following verse from the Book of Mormon teaches that the Savior works with us until we reject him.
5 And again, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, who have fallen; yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, ye that dwell at Jerusalem, as ye that have fallen; yea, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens, and ye would not. 3 Nephi 10:5
I’ll look forward to see if you can find a GA or manual teaching something different.
Even in our own confirmation ritual, the words are “Receive the Holy Ghost”, as a command, not as a bestowal of a gift. Growing up, I was confused by our LDS dialogue of receiving the Holy Ghost as a constant companion if I was righteous, because it seemed to me that my self-assessed righteousness didn’t correlate well with how much or how often I thought I felt the Holy Spirit. My personal experience subsequently has made it clear that there isn’t some formula we can follow that regulates how much of the Holy Spirit’s influence we experience. Sometimes our dialog makes it sound like the Holy Spirit is a stream of water we choose to climb into to get wet, instead of a being of free, omniscient will who knows what’s best for us and acts independent of our own.
BUT, I still think that our wills are equally important in the relationship. The Spirit can and will occasionally force His presence through to us, but He will not force us. Consequently, we can clearly exercise our will to shut Him out. Just as we cannot be redeemed in rebellion, we cannot expect the Holy Spirit’s influence when we actively reject it. We can make our hearts hard, that we cannot “feel His words”. We can absolutely “offend the Spirit” (depending on what you mean by that) and be left in our own strength when we choose to trust in it rather than God’s. The Book of Mormon has several references to the Lord withdrawing His Spirit due to wickedness, for example Mosiah 2:36 states
“And now, I say unto you, my brethren, that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom’s paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved…”
To suggest to our youth that they are equally likely to experience the Spirit’s influence regardless of their choices would be particularly nefarious.
Sean – You commented, “Both voices [“voice of spirit” and “seduction of evil”] speak to us constantly, it is up to us to choose which we follow.”
I don’t feel my struggle in life is having the courage to choose the spirit, but figuring out which voice is which. I have zero desires to rape and pillage. But when it comes to things like the Nov 2015 policy on gays and their children, do I follow what I think the feeling of the spirit telling me to choose to love in the way that I feel Christ taught, or do I support what the top church leaders are preaching? And this isn’t new. How did members struggle with the doctrine of blood atonement that Brigham Young taught? That must have been hard to wrestle with.
Good luck finding the phrase “constant companionship of the Holy Ghost” in the scriptures, as well as “personage of spirit.” The latter has one reference, but the teaching was publicly condemned before making it into the Doctrine and Covenants.
In the Old Testament, the Spirit seemed to visit this or that prophet and move them to pronounce an oracle or deliver a message to the king or the people. There was no baptism to cleanse the recipient and no ordinance to bestow any Gift of the Holy Ghost. It came and went at its own volition. So early Christians took over the *concept* of the Spirit and refashioned it as a person, the Holy Spirit (or, in Mormonspeak, the Holy Ghost). Then Mormons took over the *concept* of the Holy Spirit from Christians and refashioned it as a personnage of spirit, a view that is totally foreign to both Jewish and Christian thinking.
As to what LDS youth are told — well, making access to the Holy Ghost conditional on worthiness seems parallel to the Doctrine of Conditional Love in which God’s love for us (any of us, Mormon or not) is conditional on worthiness, obedience, or purity. It’s such a natural pairing I’m surprised it has not been highlighted by LDS leaders. Maybe in April Conference. We expect all three persons of the Godhead to be on the same page. So God withdrawing His love, Jesus withdrawing His grace, and the Holy Ghost withdrawing His presence seems like three different ways of saying the same thing.
I can see your argument, but I think there are some leaps in logic I don’t agree with. First, a kid going to a party and participating in illegal behavior is not equivalent to Christ eating with publicans and sinners. Christ was entering as an ecclesiastical authority and partaking in activity that was not inherently sinful (even if the pharisees felt it was). A chaplain walking into a jail to minister to prisoners is not defiling himself by his association. A bishop walking into the home of a man who is currently cheating on his wife is not defiled by eating dinner with him. In each case, they are coming in as someone who has a recognized type of spiritual authority, just as Christ was. But even Joe Schmo breaking bread with someone who is sinning in aspects of their life (pretty much all of us), is not defiling themselves by that association and activity. If the chaplain were engaging in illegal behavior while visiting that prison, if a bishop actively helped the man deceive his wife in facilitating the affair, then we would be in a more comparable situation with a kid drinking beer and smoking a joint with his friends.
Second, there is some questionable meshing here of the Holy Spirit and the Light of Christ. What we call the Light of Christ is a permanent force that resides in every individual. It can never be taken away, though some may become deadened to it. In other religions it’s called different names, but it’s that Old Testament idea of Lady Wisdom, calling to every soul to do good. To walk the right path in their religious framework. It confirms God’s love for every individual. The Holy Ghost, the member of the Godhead, can come and go (and you don’t need to be Mormon to experience it), but it’s a sanctifying power. It’s like the Shekhinah, God’s presence filling the ancient tabernacle and confirming it’s now-sacred nature. The tabernacle could only be “defiled” with unclean items brought in, but it could always be re-dedicated/re-sanctified through ritual.
This is my problem with the idea that the kid refuses to repent and tell his parents. Sin is like when those unclean items were brought into the ancient tabernacle/temple. The process of repentance allows that special re-sanctification to occur, a knowledge that you are *clean* before God (being “sealed” as His). At no point did you ever lose God’s love (and you should still be able to feel that love), but that sin and its associated guilt creates tension in that relationship. Repentance resolves that tension.
Damascene I found the same thing to be true for me as well. I was not excommunicated like your friend but it was at a time when I was very inactive and almost entirely out of the church that I really connected with the presence of the Holy Ghost in my life. Before that I did not really understand what was meant by the Holy Ghost when they would talk about it in church (not in a real lived experience kind of way). Since then I’ve found that the presence of the Holy Ghost (i.e. God) is there for me whenever I need Him whether I’m living perfectly or not.
I just read Elder Bednar’s talk on the Holy Ghost that Cody linked to, and it’s worth reading. It didn’t seem to have the parts of our LDS dialogue I object to. Most of the scriptures he uses are from the Book of Mormon (including the one I cited in my previous comment) and D&C — not so much the NT.
There are a couple things addressed here. A secondary point where a non-LDS Christian is butt hurt over LDS exclusivity claims. We can go around and around forever on that and probably never reach agreement. Non-Christians will get just as butt hurt over Christian exclusivity and make just as valid arguments. I don’t personally like the exclusivity claims, but we’re not going to solve that in a blog post and discussion.
The main point here is the balance of grace and works and the ability for the Holy Spirit to reside and be felt. I think we could have good discussion on that. When Elder Bednar says we “withdraw” ourselves from the Holy Spirit. I think even the most hardcore “Gracers” would agree that humans have the ability to do that. He says “the Spirit cannot abide that which is vulgar, crude, or immodest”. I don’t personally believe that. I think it’s more useful to look at it as an internal thing, ie through anger, rebelliousness, intoxication or whatever I am limiting my ability to feel the Holy Ghost. I don’t think that’s an unMormon way to view it, though it’s not the most mainstream view. A more mainstream Mormon view would be to view unworthiness as driving the Holy Ghost away. And then a next level analysis might be: for how long? If I did something obviously wrong like walk up to an old lady on the street and punch her right in the face, would the Holy Ghost withdraw itself in that moment? During that punch? If it left, when could or would it return? Immediately? After I felt remorse and turned myself back towards God? After a requisite repentance period? I think that’s a fair discussion. There are Mormon views that are all over the spectrum on that. The BOM suggests there is no mandatory waiting period required, as Corianton was guilty of a serious sin yet was not given a wait period before returning to missionary work. I don’t think a Mormon teen experiences an undue amount of guilt and lack of self esteem due to Mormon teachings on repentance. If they do, I blame that particular brand of Mormonism they were taught more than the Mormon Church in general. Every Mormon family has a little bit of a different culture that way and the parents or the local bishop set the tone not so much the general authorities or church in general. But I agree, we can do better on this topic.
Since this is confusing to me, I’m assuming it has the potential to be very confusing for our youth, and certainly was to my kids. And we say we don’t engage in theology as a church…
I can only see this ultimately as a withdrawal from our soul’s best companion and advocate for it’s best self. As a parent I remain available to my kids whatever, but some behaviours do disrupt the relationship and prevent us from being as close as I would like us to be. I’m afraid that in my inadequacy I do sometimes draw back wounded, but I imagine the Spirit to be infinitely resilient and available, but we impoverish our best selves when we are unreachable.
Many recovering alcoholics will tell us of their experiences of the Holy Spirit in their lives with an immediacy and conviction that throws any idea of the Spirit’s withdrawal into complete disarray.
In my mind I can hear Jonny Cash singing ‘I Hurt Myself Today’.
Amen to Cody’s thoughts.
Raise the stakes. Make the imaginary teenager a girl. A small, thin girl on an empty stomach with no drinking experience so she doesn’t know that a couple of beers is enough to get her pretty intoxicated. Her vision becomes blurry and her vigilance is reduced. She is laughing and acting silly. Next an amorous young lad spikes her drink with a generous amount of vodka. Enough to make her nearly pass out. She is in the grey area of implied consent versus not voicing lack of consent.. (See Footnotes) It only takes a few seconds to pull her cloths off and then …. She might only have a foggy memory of it. The guy laughs at her and tells her she is a pig and a slut the next time she sees him at school.
She feels horrible about it but hunkers down to get through life day by day. A few weeks later she becomes suspicious that she is pregnant and confirms it after a trip to the drug store. Now she has to tell someone and eventually her parents. (Or she kills herself or she tries to have an abortion without her parents health insurance coverage and ends up in the hospital with a nasty infection and a dead fetus.)
At this point she is going to have to make perhaps the most difficult decision of her life. Abortion (see footnote), adoption to strangers, adoption to parents or an older sibling, raise the child herself, marriage to the father (if the circumstances were a dating relationship instead of what I described). So, we teach the Spirit is going to abandon her.? She is going to have to make this difficult decision on her own without any help from heaven? What kind of hellishly twisted faith in worthless idols is this?
Here is the problem as I see it. Most transgressions are not just arbitrary rules with little consequences. Most transgressions hurt other people and hurt ourselves. Transgressions are not infrequent and they tend to put us in tight spots where we need even better judgment than usual to get back on track. (Brief infidelity in marriage is another great example). The Lord who seeks after lost sheep is not going to run away from them in their hour of greatest need. And the imaginary teenager I describe above is going to need to seek the help of the Lord like she has never done before. She has every right to do it, unhindered with false teachings about worthiness necessary for inspiration. Her parents might be in a place to help if the relationship is good, but they may not.
Was Alma the Younger worthy of his epiphany? Was Saul worthy of an angelic visitation on his road to Damascus after killing Christians? Was Peter a worthy apostle after denying Christ three times on the night before His death? Was Jonah worthy of being vomited back up out of the whale? I think the prayer of Jonah recorded in the second chapter is sound doctrine, even if the rest of the book is a “fish story.”. If you get yourself into a fix as bad as being thrown off a boat during a hurricane and swallowed up by a big fish, the Lord will still hear your prayer. He may not rescue you as you wish, you might still die or have harmful consequences. But you will be heard and strengthened.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jonah+2
*****
Footnotes;
Consider the complicated case of Madi Barney , the SLC Tribune’s Utahn of the year (2016). She was a BYU coed who describes being raped and how simultaneous Honor Code violations make it difficult to report these crimes. It created quite a media circus and BYU at least went through the motions of trying to change their approach to these kind of problems. Her rapist Nasiru Seidu was acquitted of the charge by a jury in Utah county which is 90% LDS. Consent as defined in an academic discussion and proving no consent in a court room beyond reasonable doubt are two very different things.
Some of my older non-LDS boy scouts have described parties where they get girls drunk and take full advantage of them. They consider attendance at the party and not leaving as implied consent. Less commonly, the girls are the aggressors and get guys drunk in order to get what they want. It is a weekly activity and seldom results in any charges against the youth for either drinking, smoking pot, or unwelcome sexual activity. Sexually transmitted diseases are not infrequent among these youth. Some parents punish their youth severely when caught and others not so much.
Don’t ask me how I found out about this, it was second handed but very reliable. In Utah suburbs where the number of Mormons is around 90%, an interesting pattern is observed of the age of mothers having elective abortions. Most of them are under 15 years old. It seems the loop hole of Mormon teachings allowing abortion if the pregnancy puts the mother’s health at risk includes the relatively small increase in risk of being too young. LDS girls who get pregnant at age 11 to 14 often have elective abortions. Age 15 is the watershed period. Over age 16 they are much less likely to have an abortion, but to carry the baby to term. I don’t think bishops are driving this, but LDS doctors who perform elective abortions.
According to gossip when I was in high school, a girl older than I nearly died from a botched abortion. Her boyfriend had a football scholarship to BYU when she found out she was pregnant during their senior year. They convinced a geek whose father was a doctor to look in his medical books and figure out how to do it. The safest place to do such a thing and not get caught in a small Mormon town of yesteryear was deemed to be the LDS ward house on Monday night. They supposedly used alcohol as an anesthetic. The football star passed out- just helping, not from drinking. The pregnant girl’s best friend was the one with the nerves of steel and she disposed of the fetus. The pregnant girl had to be taken to Salt Lake the next day for surgery to save her life. Every effort was made to keep it all hushed up so that BYU would not loose the talent of this player. The geek went to medical school after serving an honorable mission. I don’t know who was following what spirit at that time.
handlewithcare good comment. When you mention Johnny Cash, I’m thinking Sunday Morning Coming Down. I think the Holy Ghost is equally available to the singer wishing he was stoned as it is to the others: the ones at church or the dad with little girl, but he has done something to stop himself from feeling the Holy Ghost while those others seem to be enjoying it.
I’m heading off to a meeting but I *really* appreciate the comments on this post. I hope I didn’t offend anyone. I think our discourse on the topic of the Holy Spirit can improve, and I think Christian thought on the topic provides some help to us in that regard. Truth can flow both ways, I suppose.
I also will note that Elder Bednar’s address, to which I linked, at times discusses the loss of the Holy Spirit as *us* withdrawing from the Spirit, rather than the other way around. I think that concept is consistent with NT and early Christian thought, but the idea that God withdraws from us and leaves us hanging because we sin I just don’t find to be sustainable. And Elder Bednar does discuss the concept in that way at times. Despite all of that, our popular discourse on this is that our actions offend the Spirit, who withdraws until we are again “worthy” of its presence. I fundamentally disagree with that concept.
I”ll respond further once I have a few minutes. Again, thanks so much for the discussion, whether you agree or not.
This is a strange argument to me, one that we are having often at church lately for some reason. “The next day, a Sunday, you hear a lesson in Sunday School that describes how parties such as the one you attended drive away the Holy Spirit. The Spirit cannot abide sin so you need to live worthy of the constant companionship of the Spirit.”
I’ve heard this argued BOTH ways. In a Gospel Doctrine lesson last year the teacher asked if we can feel the spirit in a bar. I said, “Absolutely!” and I quickly saw that the class was completely divided in their answer, and maybe I was even in the minority–which seems super weird to me!
My rationale was that we hear countless stories of people who are misbehaving and they receive a prompting to do something, even a voice saying not to get in that car or to take that turn instead of this one. I have heard so so many of these stories. Those are not uncommon stories, or they weren’t in my years in the church. Lately, there’s a trend of talking about not driving the spirit away, like the spirit’s a Victorian lady fainting on a couch with a case of the vapors. Maybe the distinction is, as Mary Ann aptly points out, that over time you can become “past feeling” or miss out on the more subtle promptings due to lack of practice. But the Spirit will still have your back when you need it. (Bearing in mind as Stephen rightly points out that some folks really like to use “the spirit” as justification to do what they want to do anyway).
Angela and Mary Ann—loved your comments.
I feel really embarrassed to admit this. But I have sinned. I know that’s a shock to a lot of people. It’s possible I’ve never felt the Holy Ghost at all. But my description of how I feel the Holy Ghost seems to be similar to other LDS, so let’s assume I have. By my experience, I have never noticed a difference in my own personal ability to feel the Holy Ghost whether it be during sin, after sin, before I repented, after I repented, etc. I have noticed times I put myself in a position to avoid the Holy Ghost or to not seek it out. I have also noticed times when even though part of my wanted to turn to the Holy Ghost, a lot of me didn’t want to, which also kept me away. But I would best describe it as when I have wanted to feel the Holy Ghost and I have sought the Holy Ghost, I generally have experienced it, regardless of worthiness issues. And further don’t think this is an unMormon way of thinking. Maybe not totally mainstream but not crazy either.
Mary Ann: I think I perhaps wasn’t clear. I wasn’t equating the teenager at the party with Jesus, but rather the Holy Spirit accompanying the teenager to the party as Jesus. Just as Jesus went to the places of sinners, so too does the Spirit. That presence of the Spirit, I think, accomplishes two things: 1) Reiterates to the teenager that they are loved by God regardless of their “worthiness”; 2) It works on the teen’s heart in an effort to help them repent and stay on the path of God. I’d certainly encourage talking that through with their parents or someone they trust, but I think it is the Spirit that helps seed that change of heart rather than waiting until after the repentance, when the teen is “worthy”.
I also think the distinction between the Holy Spirit and Light of Christ to be splitting hairs. 🙂
I hope that makes sense.
Our ward ss has had the gift of the Holy Ghost versus The Light of Christ discussion several times. If all of the experiences we have as Mormons with the Holy Ghost fall under the heading of Light of Christ, then what is the gift of the Holy Ghost exactly? Or if all the experiences we have as Mormons with the Holy Ghost is Under The Heading of gift of the Holy Ghost, then why do people outside of Mormonism have all the same experiences? Are there spiritual experiences that only Mormons have ? The class couldn’t come up with anything.
I believe that we would be wise to follow the counsel of Apostles and prophets who tell us to stand in Holy places and to grieve not the Holy Spirit. I do not think there is any scriptural support for the idea that the Holy Spirit will follow us into unholy places. as another poster has stated, I have sinned, many times, and in divers fashions. Some were careless types, but others unfortunately were willful rebellion and I could feel the Holy Spirit stop at the door so to speak, leaving blackness where before there had been light.
In my years in the Navy I had the opportunity to visit many different countries. My shipmates would often drag me along because they knew that there would be at least one person that would be sober enough to find the way back to the ship . I did not feel like I was in an evil place in those bars, etc. with those buddies, but I did not feel especially enlightened either. I did get a premonition that just may have been from the Holy Ghost when one of those buddies tried to spike my locally made soda beverage. (He later apologized.) One of the places that I went where there the Holy Ghost definitely stopped at the door was a brothel in Japan. It was not actually a brothel but a home where the lady of the house was also engaged in a dubious enterprise. I was a young and callow fellow at the time and had been touring the town (Yokosuka, I believe) with a couple of buddies who often spoke in Mexican between themselves. I really had no idea what I was getting into when they suggested that we stop in at this place. But I quickly found out and sat on the floor at one of those low Japaneses tables and conversed with one of the buddies while the other relieved some of the pressure on his libido. It was not a spiritual feeling at all, but it was enlightening.
I have felt the Holy Spirit numerous times in my life though and know the difference through my own personal experience. I have found that I must do the things that the Apostles and prophets have urged us to do for ages, read the scriptures, meditate, pray, etc. to keep the Holy Ghost nearby.
As I have (hopefully) matured, I have asked myself, “Why take the chance?” by going into places where the Holy Ghost is not likely to follow. I have taught my children that, or at least asked them to consider it. And any of my grandchildren who care to listen.
Glenn
Spoke in “Mexican”? You do know that Mexicans speak Spanish and “Mexican” is not a language, right?
How do we reconcile the experience of Paul / Saul..??
How do we reconcile the experience of Paul / Saul..??
Cody: Excellent article and related to one I’ve been working on…so selfishly I’m going to keep my thoughts to myself until I figure out how to do a post on this site. Is that a permission that one must request? Or is to seek that power a sin…
Paul/Saul absolutely believed he was doing what God wanted. When God pointed out otherwise he changed direction.
Cody, if I wanted to split hairs in this situation, I would do it with *way* more categories than just two. There are a host of both natural and supernatural influences that can play on a person and in a particular environment affecting perception of what Mormons simply call “the Spirit.”
Mary Ann, your own description of the Light of Christ and the Holy Spirit sound like the same things to me. Perhaps I am too far gone, but they both sound like fickle divine support; there are situations where one could or could not be there, but when they are there, they help. I know you could go into significantly more detail about but each, but really FUNCTIONALLY how do we identify the difference in ourselves or much less anyone else? How can we tell someone else the source of a feeling inside them when we don’t know a bad premonition from an unsettling breakfast? I know that verges on absurd reductionism, but I think that’s the point in this case: It’s hard even as adults, and even when we analyze our own thoughts and feelings. There are youth that are convinced that a feeling they get after making a mistake is something withdrawing from them. At an age that seeks security it feels like spiritual abandonment. They’re being punished on the inside as well as the outside. I don’t see that as a paradigm for helping others learn and grow from mistakes through love. Jeez it sounds really bad to my mind when imagined that way: “why did spirit daddy leave? was it because I was bad?” – “Why am I suffering now? Oh yeah I was bad last week and couldn’t take the sacrament. This is my fault.”
Whether you want to call it light/spirit/focus/chi, it’s functionally never taken from us…there’s always some canonical way to attain it again. Cleanse chakras, meditate, repent, pray…that’s the point of the entire article. As taught, God seems to be a bit spiteful, waiting for you to suffer some before permitting you to feel His presence again. That’s not what I imagine a loving God to be, but I can’t deny the self-flagellation that came along with being a youth in the church. (That’s my interpretation/experience anyway, YMMV).
Awanderingwarlock, as I told Cody, there are a host of other influences that can play a role when someone says they “felt the Spirit,” and you brought up a couple. Emotions, mental health (biochemical reactions), physical health, instinctual fight-or-flight reactions, and personal needs/desires – those can all affect perception of environment, feelings of heightened/deadened senses, and how comfortable/uncomfortable you are. Those are all natural influences, but some Mormons clearly attribute *those* as feeling or *not* feeling the Spirit (and we clearly believe supernatural entities can influence those physical manifestations). In the supernatural realm, Mormons believe in dark and light spirits that can exert influence (I work a lot with Family History, so you’ll get supernatural attribution to both the Spirit and deceased relatives), influence from Satan himself, and influence deriving from God (Light of Christ and/or Holy Ghost).
As far as Light of Christ versus Holy Ghost, the Light of Christ is not a person. It appears to be a force, an energy. That’s why I compare it to chi. The Holy Ghost, at least in Mormon philosophy, is an individual. Both deity and dark/light spirits in Mormon teachings are also individuals with distinct personalities. They can exert influence, but it’s not going to be a constant underlying presence like the Light of Christ.
Obviously, a lot of this is speculation, but it’s how I’ve made sense of my own scripture studies and personal experiences.
Very interesting topic.
“I’ve heard this argued BOTH ways. In a Gospel Doctrine lesson last year the teacher asked if we can feel the spirit in a bar. I said, “Absolutely!” and I quickly saw that the class was completely divided in their answer, and maybe I was even in the minority–which seems super weird to me”
A couple of years in Sharing Time (I think the theme was about temples) the Primary President shared her experience of traveling to Italy and visiting a cathedral where she “didn’t feel the “spirit” at all, in contrast to when she visits an LDS temple. I’m guessing the kids were left with the idea that the Holy Ghost cannot be found in other religions or religious institutions. Sometimes I cringe at what is said in our worship services–hoping there are no visitors of other faiths in attendance. (my own experience when visiting European cathedrals is i’m either “feeling the spirit” or just feeling in awe at the devotion to God the people who erected these beautiful edifices had).
Another subject, maybe somewhat related, is why a “confirmation/feeling of the spirit” comes easily to some while others struggle to attain such and still others never get that “confirmation?” The typical, unsatisfying answer, is that some are bestowed with spiritual gifts, others not.
.
Thank you, thank you. I was raised Methodist, a tradition defined by its emphasis on the grace and acceptance of God. As a child, we learned and sang songs proclaiming “God is always with us, through every up and down. He will never leave us; He’ll always be around.”
When I found LDS church, this was one of the most confusing things. If God was always with us, as Jesus taught, how can I receive the gift of the Spirit which has always been with me? And after I was baptized, this became even more problematic – I felt no different. I couldn’t feel the Spirit any more than I could before. I agonized about it, maybe I wasn’t worthy, maybe I wasn’t trying hard enough, all like that. Some friends suggested that maybe I didn’t feel different because I’d been doing so much to stay close to the Spirit even before my baptism (so what is it – we receive the Spirit at baptism or we can cultivate the Spirit as non members?). Through the next year this issue of feeling the Spirit killed my faith – literally. I questioned whether I had been baptized worthily, thought that maybe the priesthood holder who performed my baptism and laid hands for the Holy Ghost wasn’t worthy, wondered if maybe I’d just been sinning too much and grieved the Spirit. Eventually, I “realized” that I had not, indeed, repented enough before my baptism, that the ordinance was invalid, that I had never received the Holy Ghost, and that I’d never be worthy of the cleansing and empowering influence of the Spirit. The end.
Anyway, this interpretation might have saved me back then. We can do all kinds of wonderings about whether it’d be better to go back in time or whether the growth that’s come since then is worth it. I don’t know that answer, as I’m still grieving this loss and reconstructing faith. But I do know, again, that this interpretation of the Spirit would have been incredibly healing and freeing through that dark time.
Thank you for speaking this now.