As I transitioned from an orthodox to a heterodox member of the church, I developed several coping mechanisms that not only make the three hour block tolerable, but sometimes even fun!
While using the internet during Sacrament Meeting is an easy out that I’m sure most of you already do (and how many of you are reading this post in church?), I use the internet during Sacrament to prepare for the next two hours. To really make Sunday School and Priesthood/RS enjoyable, you need to be prepared. So I read up on the lessons, and look for ways to liven up the class. He are some examples from the last few months.
1. SS lesson 24 on the apostasy of Thomas Marsh and Simonds Ryder. I had a prepared statement (Ok I cheated, and actually worked on it during the week) The SS teacher gave me time, and I gave the real reasons Marsh and Ryder left the church. I ended with a quote from President Uchtdorf’s Oct 2013 GC address where he said that the reason people leave the church is “not that simple” I had several people come up after and thank me for telling “the whole story”
2. Priesthood/RS lesson 18: Virtue. So in the middle of HPG class while we are talking about Virtue, I ask if virtue can be taken forcible from a person. They all agree that it cannot. I then ask how they reconcile Moroni 9:9, which says that the Lamanaite daughters where deprived of their “chastity and virtue”. I then told them that the church recently removed this verse from the YW Personal Progress workbooks. (See SLTrib article here)
3. SS Lesson 35, Martin and Willy handcart fiasco. I told the class that one of my heroes from Mormon history, Levi Savage, told them not to go so late in the season, but was threatened with excommunication by an Apostle for not following his leaders.
4. I was visiting my daughters ward, and the teacher asked if we had a paid clergy. Somebody said no, and I said that all our full time GA’s received a salary, and that as of a few years ago, the Apostles made $120,000 a year. Then another visitor, who was a Stake Patriarch, said that what I said was true, as it had been leaked on the Mormon Leaks web site. The teacher just smiled. I think he knew the answer, and was just fishing for the $120,000 answer!
Some other smaller examples: Whenever somebody refers to BY as “the Prophet”, I remind them that BY was never called a “Prophet” during his life, he was the President of the Qof12, and later the President of the church, and that we didn’t start using the word Prophet until David O McKay. In fact, none of the Presidents of the church since Joseph Smith was even ordained as a “Prophet” until McKay (1) . When somebody equates D&C 89 with the Temple Recommend questions on the WofW, I gently reminded them that section 89 permits the drinking of Beer and Wine. I’ve also said out loud in Gospel Doctrine that I don’t believe in the literal story of the Flood, Job, or Jonah.
So, what do you do to stay sane at Church?
(1) “On 12 April 1951 David O. McKay became the first LDS church president to be “ordained” since the founding prophet. Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith “ordained and set apart” President McKay. At seventy-four Apostle Smith may have forgotten his own father’s restriction against ordaining presidents of the LDS church.” (Quinn, Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, pg 252-253)
Wheat & Tares 
I read books, books about Christ or the scriptures, books like “The Islamic Jesus” by Mustafa Akyol and “Young Jesus” by Jean-Pierre Isbouts. Sometimes I read church history. Sometimes I just randomly open the Book of Mormon and start reading somewhere.
CFR that Levi Savage was threatened with excommunication by an Apostle. I could not find any documentation for this claim.
When did we start sustaining all the Q15 as “prophets, seers & revelators”?
I have generally skipped Sunday School this year. I cannot sit through an entire hour listening to the so called history of the church.
Man in black socks, There may be other sources, but George Cunningham, a member of the Willie company, wrote in his autobiography: “About this time Elder Franklin D. Richards and the returning missionaries came up with us. A meeting was called. Captain Willie laid the state of affairs before the brethren. He accused Brother[s] Savage and Attwood for the rebellious talk and not upholding him in his place. President Richards reproved them and the whole camp for the dissentions that had been allowed to creep into camp. He said that the hand of God had been heavy upon us for this cause. Brother Savage was called up and was told that he would have to take back what he said at Florence of which I have already mentioned or be tried for fellowship.”
Thanks, Curious.
I would love to be in your ward, but I’m Grateful for Boring Church. I do genealogy during Sunday School (it’s my calling), and then keep doing it on my tablet in Sacrament and Priesthood meeting. I like it and it keeps my sane, and my ward is far less forgiving when bringing up issues like Thomas B. Marsh.
“A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away….” when I had children at home, I attended the full 3 hour blok–though I stopped attending SS sometime around 1980. It became too difficult to sit through the same flawed, pablum lessons year after year. And, I wasn’t good at biting my tongue when I thought errors were made in church history or interpretation of scriptures. I didn’t know it was called “proof texting” back then, but I sometimes disrupted the lesson to point out that the full context of a verse altered its meaning.
Before I stopped attending class, as I became more disbelieving and disenchanted with the party line, I became more strident in voicing my disagreements, it began bothering me that I was likely creating doubts in the minds of others that were new to the church and/or less aware (and curious, educated, open-minded) of its lack of perfection in its correlated teaching. The words of Paul began to bother me…”And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.” I would find a place to sit down and read for an hour until Priesthood started.
Over the years, as the lesson manuals for Prstd/RS became increasingly vacuous (remember the first of the Teachings of the Prophets? Brigham Young’s statements and discourses were so intensively redacted and edited as to be laughable.) Kids were grown and gone, and more old guys joined the church and attended HP class. I finally stopped attending that as well. I couldn’t keep my mouth shut (enough) and ward splits removed all the guys who were similarly willing to disagree and discuss…
So, now I am not bored anymore–once I go home right after sacrament meeting. That is how I cope now.
Bishop Bill, I agree- church is boring. I agree-being heterodox is truly challenging as correlated services drive us all bonkers. I know. I feel the same. exact. way.
But I beg you to reconsider dropping information bombs on fellow saints. It’s not my job or your job to pop someone else’s bubble or transition them into the same level of heterodoxy you find yourself. Respect where other people are and don’t fling shocking facts which although true, might cause them to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Within any Ward, any church class, you will find people at different faith stages and places. Not only is that natural, but it’s ok and you and I can have faith that just as we emerged or are traversing our path, so too are others. Let them take the time they need, the time we used.
I’m in academia and I find that the laziest thinkers are those who deconstruct/ who pick apart-who point out the chinks. It’s far harder to build something, to have vision. I wonder whether there isn’t a way to help our people develop spiritually in a way that is honest and historically congruous, without needing to wage war on the teacher or SLC, or shock others. (Not that you did so, but that sharing that type of informatiin can have that effect in similar contexts.)
I fiercely defend the right we have to access this history and I personally support Mormon history research organizations. I join many on the bloggernacle who come to discuss these things. These are contexts for people who have opened the doors themselves for this stage in their spiritual development. (Mormon Matters podcast has several episodes in Fowler’s stages of faith as well as ethical considerations regarding interactions with others. They are worth a listen and a donation.)
While it isn’t necessary to share false information, keep in mind that information overload or even true information presented in the wrong context or even with with the wrong purpose can be poisoning, much like physically opening a butterfly cacoon prematurely. You can think of your true facts as ingredients, and the class as a recipe being baked. Just because you have delishious pickles doesn’t mean they belong in the chocolate cake on chocolate cake day. Wait until it’s potato salad day. Potato salad day might be at the bloggernacle picnic or in five years or when someone wakes up in the middle of the night and calls you on the phone craving potato salad. You’ll be there. But, in the meantime, enjoy the chocolate cake.
You may or may not agree with me on these points, but the bottom line is that people like you and I can share the same information about Thomas Marsh or BY or BoM horses for for selfish reasons- to disrupt OUR boredom or OUR historical correctness, to impress others with OUR academic knowledge or OUR advanced heterodoxy, or to steer the church membership as WE believe it needs to be steadied and be “super commenters”.
On the other hand, we can share information that supports and honors OTHER’s developmental stages and THEIR need for spiritual nourishment.
The fact that you were willing to do this as a guest in a Ward, not knowing the individual problems/needs/perceptions of class members, makes me think that you are sharing this information because it has powerfully affected you, not because it is appropriate to them. And yet our responsibility is to support and help them first….
This is a rather extreme example, but ro help illustrate what I’m saying, imagine that it is Christmas time. You are in a room with young and old alike, including those eager to welcome Santa. Annoyed with the naïveté of the Santa-waiters, you decide to “educate” all in the room about Santa and his flying reindeer. Alternatively, you can decide to simply wish everyone a “Merry Christmas” and demonstrate what you know the real reason of the season to be by giving and serving. You could choose either path with complete personal integrity and accuracy. Which would be more effective? Which would demonstrate more love? Which respects and honors developmental stages?
I’m no more happy with the white-washed history we were given and that we (the rank and file) perpetuated. But in inoculating each other, it’s important to do so in a way that does not throw the baby out with the bath water or that shakes people’s faith to the core over issues and imperfect people that are not God, are not our salvation. Keep your eye and your comments there. I think you’ll find a great need and hunger to be filled for them and for you. It’s much harder to find the “other option” and then listen for the somewhat rare instances when others are uplifted and enlightened by this knowledge. Be a midwife if truth, be patient and serving and even though it is difficult, sit and wait with your brothers and sisters as they travail. Intervene with them as they change and grow, don’t force it. It’s painful work for both, but not everyone needs a c-section, and the side effects for it are often-times much worse.
I know I’m coming across as “holier than thou” and I’m not. For many years, I was an imp in classes that often undermined the teacher and flaunted my knowledge to the deterrent of the bigger picture. I was and still am a piece of work! If I am deflecting too much of my own experience and my current personal and much flawed penance on your situation, my apologies. I do wish I could take back many a class comment, many of my attitudes, and much of my mis-placed influence.
I teach the 9 year olds, so I haven’t been to Sunday School or RS in years, thank goodness.
My 9 year olds are awesome and inquisitive and they ask good questions. I’d rather be there than in a boring regurgitated SS lesson. (Also, I supplement the goshawful primary manual with Wikipedia and RSR.)
Mortimer, if I may: One of the big reasons we’re in a mess with teaching our history is the culture of silencing those who seek to correct oversimplified, whitewashed, and often just plain wrong accounts. It doesn’t matter that it takes less work to point out flaws than to create something. If nobody challenges an idea, it usually has no strength to it.
You could say that the fact that it takes less work is a *positive feature* of criticism. I think it’s great that I can strengthen my ideas and communication by asking very little of others.
I’m also speaking as an academic, for what it’s worth. I’ve had the same jokers and sophists in my classes and as reviewers. The correct response is, “Thanks for pointing that out.”
I understand that it’s not always a good idea to correct people. Some teachers struggle just to do their callings. Some people are so wound up in a specific worldview that they can’t countenance a competing one. But there must be a good policy between needling every teacher to death and allowing the Church promote falsehoods unchallenged.
The statement/Question, How I stay Sane At Church is one I would like to add my two bits too.
I’ve been an active church member for over 51 years. During that time, I’ve moved through various moods about church activity, administration, and culture. There have been times I’ve had to exercise patience, determination, and grit to deal with a variety of situations. Some of them are discussed in the post.
Like many in the Bloggernacle, I am well versed in all the problematic, controversial, and unexplainable aspects of church doctrine and history. For me, all these things are offset by the rewards prayer, faith, study, sacrifice, and church activity have brought into my life. We’re promised that we will be given a Comforter, that is; the Holy Ghost. That has been fulfilled in my life in spades.
Nowadays,I look forward to church each Sunday. I’ve learned how to deal with the annoyances. My advice, stick with it and you will most likely move through it and enjoy church the longer you attend. Maybe it is analogous to getting your children through their teen years.
The Right Trousers,
I agree. We are in a mess and I struggle with the thought of silencing facts, but I just point out that there is a difference between censorship and being thoughtful, well-timed, sensitive, and instructive when presenting facts. Big difference.
I celebrated banned books week last week. I will fight for our right to read and to information. Does that mean I read my daughter “The Golden Compass” at age 5? No. Does that mean she might choose to do so later? Absolutely. In the meantime, will we have scaffolded conversations about integrity and also atheism? Yup. The saints are in the same boat…needed scaffolding and inoculation. Those ready to run faster have many accessible outlets, including the new and continually growing gospel topics essays.
Mortimer,
I may have come across to flippant in my post. I am very mindful of the context and who is in the class. I have not said things because I knew there were investigators or new members in the class. And I couch each response with the proper lead in, like “did you know that there were other reasons Marsh left the church than just the milk…….” I’m still in the ward I severed as Bishop in many years ago, and about half the people still call me bishop. So I guess that allows me some leeway on what I can say. But since I’m so prolific in my history facts, many times the teacher will actually call me to give some detail on some aspect of the lesson, or if somebody asked what is perceived as a difficult question, several people will turn to me as they know I’ll have something to say.
People always say “Milk before meat” (or pickles!), but I’ve yet to find ANY class at church that lets us talk about the meat. I know that is what the internet is for, but I want it at church!
Curious asked “When did we start sustaining all the Q15 as “prophets, seers & revelators”?
My theory is it started during ETB’s sick years. I think they have always been sustained at such, as that is the way the “keys” are passed to a new prophet when the old one dies. But during the late years of ETB’s presidency, when his grandson Steve was very vocal that “grandpa could not possible be leading the church when he doesn’t even recognize me”, the church started to emphasize the all the Q15 are prophets, seers & revelators, and even if the “The Prophet” is incapacitated, there are 14 other prophets (lower case) that can lead and direct the church. I’ve yet to do a word search of GC talks, but I think that is when it started. I was not that way when I was a teen in the 70’s
Mortimer, Unfortunately, most of the SS and PH classes I have seen in recent years include people who cannot tolerate the notion that any Church leader ever made a mistake or that anything unsavory by current cultural standards ever happened in Church history , etc., AND people who cannot tolerate the censored, white-washed, and sometimes distorted or even wrong version of Church history and “Teachings of the Presidents of the Church” that we have in SS and RS/PH manuals. Sometimes the question is which group should be upset, offended, irritated, or bored into withdrawing. The best approach to that I have experienced was when my ward had 2 gospel doctrine classes taught by teachers of very different styles and did not assign class members to one or the other, but let them self-assign. Now we have four units meeting in the building so there is no space to do that with the result that the hall class is much more appropriate for some than the scheduled classes.
Jared, I’m glad to hear of your experience. It cannot be generalized; wards and individuals vary too much for that. “Annoyances” is sometimes much too gentle a word for the perennial, insoluble problems. I have, however, succeeded in my self-assigned task of not running screaming from the room during our HP Group meetings. But I have sometimes used that time to meet with others on ward or stake or individual matters, or to find someone else in need of a hall class. It was also a blessing when our Bishop cut out the singing in Priesthood meeting. (Even the tone deaf called our guys’ singing an “insult to God.” The ward trying to have sacrament meeting at the same time may have been unduly disturbed by the wailing of the damned from the “cultural hall”.) While for me the problems are indeed offset by rewards of activity in the Church, there is no likelihood of learning to actually enjoy the boredom or the the verbal and musical assaults — and I’ve been at it almost 2 decades longer than you report.
My last Sunday school lesson was about the handcarts from a descendent of the survivors and he corrected some errors and also addressed the cascade of bad decisions that led to the disaster.
It starts with early correlation. This group acted outside of that. Then they moved into the staging area too late in the year and after another group had taken the lions share of available supplies.
That left them with go back, winter on place or return to the states. No decision at that point was a good one.
It is really a case study in how bad decisions cascade into disaster and made a fascinating lesson.
I am unlucky in that my chapel can’t get a very good internet drop so when more than one ward is in the building – LDSAcess stops working. And to top it off, it is right in a dead cell zone for my provider. Oh how cursed I am! 🙂
Did a quick search, and found that since at least April 1880 GC, that the Q15 have been sustained as prophets, seers and revelators. (Oldest GC report that has been digitized)
https://archive.org/details/conferencereport1880a
See page 68
Thanks, Chad H. I hadn’t known to look for that. Interestingly (compared to current practice), it shows John Taylor sustained as “President of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, as one of the Twelve Apostles, and of [sic] the Presidency of the Church…” It lists 11 additional apostles and two “counselors to the Twelve Apostles”. And “The Twelve Apostles [were sustained] as the presiding quorum and authority of the Church, and with their counselors, as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators.” So the latter group included 12 apostles and 2 non-apostles.
Curiously, among those “authorities of the Church” unanimously sustained were also, e.g. the General Architect and his assistants and other functionaries we would not now consider authorities of the Church..
Also, a vacancy in the “First Seven Presidents of the Seventies” was filled on a motion by the President of the First Seven Presidents that Wm. Taylor “be elected.” It “carried unanimously.” I’m old, but not old enough to have seen a motion or an election in general conference.
“When did we start sustaining all the Q15 as “prophets, seers & revelators”?
My theory is it started during ETB’s sick year”
This is a Snufferite rumour.
Joseph Smith Papers has 1835 under the charge of JS. They didn’t on the other hand preside in organized stakes, but just in the mission field so to speak.
Jpv, I didn’t make myself very clear in re-reading what I wrote. They have always been sustained as prophets, seers & revelators, but it was during ETB’s last years that we started to hear the other GA’s refer to them collectively as prophets, seers & revelators. In my youth, there was only one Prophet. It was later we started to call them all prophets, seers & revelators. I think it was ETB’s illness that drove that new way of speaking about them. Just my opinion. And I thought that way before anybody knew who Denver was! 🙂
A couple of century-old LDS uses of “prophet” referring to someone other than Joseph Smith:
J. Golden Kimball, General Conference April 1910:
“President Joseph F. Smith is the Prophet of this Church, and he is the man who is appointed. When the Lord wants to give this Church a revelation, or give it instruction, He will give it through Joseph F. Smith, the Prophet. He will not give it through me, and He will not give it through an Apostle. The Apostles are prophets, seers, and revelators, and as such we sustain them. God does not give His revelations through the Twelve for His Church; He gives them through His living Prophet that is appointed, as the Prophet Joseph Smith was.”
Heber J. Grant, General Conference October 1898:
“Do I know that Lorenzo Snow is a Prophet of God? Yes, I do. Do I know that Wilford Woodruff was a Prophet of God? Yes, I do. Do I know that John Taylor and Brigham Young were Prophets of God? Yes, I do.”
I wonder what Golden Kimball thought it meant for the Church to “sustain” the Apostles as “prophets, seers, and revelators” who, however, do not receive revelation for the Church (apparently, for him, not even as a group). Perhaps for him “prophet, seer, and revelator” had become an ecclesiastical title divorced from prophecy, seeing, or revealing or maybe an unrealized aspirational title. I don’t think it wise to try to make much of capitalization (or its lack). The 1880 GC report showed all 12 apostles and their 2 counselors being sustained as capitalized “Prophets, Seers, and Revelators”
@fbisti
I became much more able to cope with current and historical Mormon proof-texting when I found out that the New Testament authors all proof-texted the Old Testament and that the OT authors all proof-texted other ancient near east documents and each other! We’re actually continuing a well-worn technique of developing theology.
Of course, we have so many resources available to us today – we should hold ourselves to a higher standard than even the Bible writers. And I’m passionate about modern, more accurate translations and in finding the most contextual meaning of a passage and correcting errors we’ve has in understanding the texts – but let’s not pretend Mormons invented proof-texting.