When is it time to throw in the towel and walk away from a large investment? The answer is simple: when the ongoing losses outweigh the potential benefits. But of course, that’s a prediction game, a gamble. It’s so easy to keep throwing good money out for bad. And a very tangible risk in making these types of decisions is that you may be just around the corner from making the investment work, from realizing the potential, and yet you may not know it. The problem with hope is that it looks just like false hope until after the fact. Sort of like the wheat and tares–you can’t tell them apart until harvest time.
In economics and business decision-making, a sunk cost is a cost that has already been incurred and cannot be recovered. Sunk costs are sometimes contrasted with prospective costs, which are future costs that may be incurred or changed if an action is taken.
Sunk costs have been on my mind a lot due to personal circumstances. And given the recent policy change and subsequent mass resignation, these thoughts aren’t just on my mind–many people are undergoing this same type of evaluation process, worried about the risks of walking away, worried about the future costs of staying. I’ve had probably a dozen friends resign over this new policy, and others have been severely shaken. People I would never have guessed have been very directly impacted in ways I could only have imagined. Honestly, I’ve been more shaken by the reaction of those who aren’t shaken by the policy than by the policy itself. And I was definitely shaken by the policy.
Some people have talked about scaling back their investment while remaining in the church. This is an effort to avoid future losses in what they now see as a losing endeavor. This may take the form of reduction in tithing or diverting those donations to other ventures. It may involve foregoing temple recommends or not accepting callings. For some it means full inactivity without resigning.
About two years ago, we opened a business. In many ways running this business has been much easier than our previous corporate jobs. A few years ago I was living in Asia, helping to evacuate foreign nationals during a tsunami-generated nuclear disaster. That was stressful. Running a business is certainly more flexible and far less complex. In some ways it felt like moving from the ocean into a fishbowl. As everyone knows, most small businesses fail. But you open a business because you think you are something special, that somehow you can make this work–you are the secret formula other businesses didn’t have. If it succeeds, maybe you’re right. Maybe you are one special snowflake. But if it fails, well, you were probably just arrogant and deluded.
You start with a proforma, a plan for what your expenses will be and what your revenues will be. You revisit that model over and over again. In our case, we started with conservative expectations compared to others in the same business. And then we revised those projections downward. Then we revised them downward again. And again.
Watching the policy change unfold, I was surprised at how harsh it was. It hit me like a gale force wind to realize the implications to so many people I know. I thought I had revised my expectations low enough, but I was unprepared for just how low this felt.
When you are in this situation of watching your business, trying to get to a break even and beyond, every loss, no matter how small, can feel ruinous. Every win, no matter how small, can cause you to hope. They say that a successful salesperson is like a professional gambler, a person who can roll with losses and keep pulling that slot machine’s arm, hoping for the next big win. Harvard Business Review coined the term the “happy loser,” or “people who actually relish rejection and look for jobs that provide them with opportunities to be rejected.” The thought crossed my mind with this recent policy change that this term may apply to me. Who but a glutton for punishment would keep coming back for more?
All small business owners fit this description to some extent. No matter how much money we’ve already pumped in, every win is a sign that things are turning around, that we have hit the magic formula, a winning streak. In time, like all salespeople, you develop superstitions about success. If I win this next customer, then we’ll be successful overall. If I use the red sales kit, I’ll win it. At the end of each day we tally our wins and our losses, our successes, and our setbacks. Each new day is a sign that we should either stick with it or give up on it.
If we walk away from our business, we won’t realize the potential we had hoped for: early retirement, flexible schedule, working together. But we’ll have other needs covered: steady income, insurance coverage, and we stop the hemorrhaging of our savings account. If we stay in, maybe we’ll achieve our goals, or we may not; what is certain is the future costs that will continue to add up before we eventually win or lose. By now we know what most of those costs will be. But there’s always a chance that something unexpected will hit us and knock us down even further than we projected.
It’s difficult to avoid the sunk cost fallacy described above. It’s too easy to want to stick with something that isn’t working just because we’ve already spent too much on it. We want to recoup our sunk costs by sticking with it, hoping it will eventually pay off. This thinking is what leads to eating stale donuts rather than just throwing them away. We aren’t really enjoying them. We are just avoiding the pain of sunk costs.
In the book You Are Not So Smart, the author points out a few sunk cost fallacy examples:
Sunk costs drive wars, push up prices in auctions and keep failed political policies alive. The fallacy makes you finish the meal when you are already full. It fills your home with things you no longer want or use. Every garage sale is a funeral for someone’s sunk costs.
Sunk costs are why we delay, we hesitate. It’s why we find it so very hard to give up on a losing proposition. We don’t have to decide today. Getting out of bed to face another day of trying to read our future in the tea leaves of minor setbacks and modest gains is becoming tiring. The latest setbacks in our business don’t portend well, just as the latest policy change doesn’t portend well for those with ties to the LGBT community.
It is a noble and exclusively human proclivity, the desire to persevere, the will to stay the course – studies show lower animals and small children do not commit this fallacy. Wasps and worms, rats and raccoons, toddlers and tikes, they do not care how much they’ve invested or how much goes to waste. They can only see immediate losses and gains. As an adult human being, you have the gift of reflection and regret. You can predict a future place where you must admit your efforts were in vain, your losses permanent, and when you accept the truth it is going to hurt.
Unfortunately, life is not a “Choose Your Own Adventure” book where you can backtrack and try it again if you don’t like the ending you get.
My honest opinion, and my friendly advice is this: do it or do not do it. You will regret both. – Soran Kierkegaard
For those who decide to leave and those who decide to stay, I understand. This is tough stuff. For those who are untroubled, keep on keepin’ on. It seems to be a great investment for you. You will continue to do great good I hope. But for those on the fence, I express my heartfelt empathy.
Wheat & Tares 
As I read this post, I thought about the sunk cost that Lehi’s family were required to make as they were led to the promised land by Heavenly Father.
As we read the account Lehi and his family from the pages of Book of Mormon we see a microcosm of church members as they deal with all the issues of the internet generation, including the new policy about same-sex households.
I identify with those who were faithful, Nephi, Lehi, Sariah, and etc. Why? Because of the manifestations of the Spirit. I hope I can always be true to what I have been given, no matter the sunk cost.
As for those like Laman and Lemuel, I hope they can eventually find their way out of the difficulties they encounter like king Lamoni did.
Agency is a gift from God. Use it wisely.
I like using the word the church uses to teach us: sacrifice.
It wouldnt be sacrifice if we weren’t giving up more than we receive but know this that God is great and Jesus is his son and the church of jesus Christ of latter day saints is the lords church and because our faith is in that the promised blessings are greater than any loss we feel now.
I think the biggest problem is when you start seeing Church as an investment.
Don’t we all invest in Eternal Life?
“I like using the word the church uses to teach us: sacrifice.
”
But should anyone ever have to sacrifice their conscience and intellect?
It may not be palatable, but the reality is that we are all human, and yes, we invest, hoping for promised blessings like Abraham and Sarah-who never saw those promises entirely fulfilled, and for whom the price was very high indeed.
Since I’d quite like to retain my testimony, I spend a lot less time in church meetings other than Sunday these days. Stupid seems to make an appearance a lot and I consider the time better spent with family. My days of four callings, young children and twelve hour jobs are done.
And with announcements like this, they are so done. My current low profile is an effort at sanity and to give others permission to pass on the three hour mid-week meetings, and spend that time loving your family and friends. Since my children are inactive and confirmed in their choice by this unpleasantness, I’ve decided to remember that the family that plays together stays together.
I’m sorry you feel the time, money and loyalty given to the Church is a wasted investment. Call it sacrifice, investment, or payment, we get in return what we’ve put in. It’s the law of the harvest. Most of those resigning were not committed to the Gospel even before the policy change (source: here <> and here <>
Finally, I must take issue with your final statement, In fact, life is a “Choose Your Own Adventure” book. We have agency, and when we make a mistake, repentance, the atonement, and the sacrament get us back on track. This is at the very core of Christianity. To quote Carol Lynn Pearson–no stranger to the issues surrounding gay mormonism–“Just in case I need to erase what was written up before, a thing called repentance can wipe out a sentence a page or a chapter or more.”
“Call it sacrifice, investment, or payment, we get in return what we’ve put in. ”
But it’s sobering to think that if anyone consents to and becomes complicit in the church’s policy of judgment, mistrust and exclusion, that may turn out to be the return on that sacrifice, investment or payment.
That’s why I always have to go back to Jesus’ words about the two great commandments. Makes me feel so much safer in my spiritual journey and so much cozier in my mortal one.
Alice,
This earth life is not meant to be cozy. I don’t see anything cozy in Abraham life, Moses, or any of the prophets or prophetess who we currently know about. Being tried and tested is always difficult but that is in part what builds faith. Just take Elijah and the Priests of Baal at Mt Carmel. I don’t think it was a very nice thing to mock at someone else’s god and then to have fire come down and burn them up. For me it would be a horrifying experience but lest face it if Elijah was going to be true to the first commandment he had to follow God even if he did not completely understand how doing that was going to match up with the second.
I have great empathy and sympathy for my LDS brothers and sisters who are struggling right now to sense the direction of God’s Spirit. It’s not my intent to hijack this thread, but please allow me to at least offer a sidebar comment.
Coincidentally, today marks a milestone in the Community of Christ (CoC), yet one that is still all about sensing divine direction. Thirty years ago today (Nov. 17, 1985) the first women were ordained in what was then the RLDS Church. That and other issues prompted at least 10 percent and perhaps as many as 20 percent of the active membership of the church to leave. As far as I’m aware, few have returned. They’ve found spiritual homes elsewhere, and for that I’m grateful. It’s been tough on lots of congregations and particularly families (awkward conversations around the big Thanksgiving feast table, for starters) during the subsequent three decades.
In my opinion (substitute “testimony” here if you’d like) the CoC continues to transform and blossom in response to the Spirit’s direction. That doesn’t mean all the problems have gone away. Hardly! They’ve been replaced with a bunch of new challenges, but then why should we expect it to be any different?
The CoC in the USA (along with Canada, the UK, and Australia) has now opened membership, priesthood ordination, and celebration of the sacrament of marriage without regard to sexual orientation. And, yes, we welcome anyone to bring their infants for blessing. Although we continue to move further away from our early 19th-century Mormon beginnings, I contend we’re still a legitimate descendant of what began with Joseph Smith Jr.
Yes, I know our experience has been the opposite of current LDS folks who ask, “Should I stay or should I go?” All I can offer is this: The Spirit blows where the Spirit wills. May you be open to respond in faith.
MH – “Don’t we all invest in Eternal Life?”
Nope. I’m sure some are trying to “store up treasures in Heaven”, but if you’re doing anything in hopes of an eternal reward, you’ll likely be very disappointed that your “investment” doesn’t get you a seat at the table closer to God.
Someone could get pedantic about it and say that even the few, small things we do that are believed to be required for eternal life are a form of investment, but it would be a mistake to think that anything a person does somehow makes them “deserving” of what someone believes they will get.
Performance in religion should not be seen as an investment because you should never believe that it entitles you to anything.
To all those who are struggling with the new policies, check with some people who have been affected by the very reasons that the church leaders have propounded as being the reasons behind the policy changes. They are based upon real world input.
When the policy changes were made public, I did my usual perusal of the bloggernacle after events like General Conference. And, as usual, there was a litany of criticism from the same souces, stating in effect, that the leadership of the church does not know what they are doing. But then I read a couple of articles by real world people who have lived the life.
Like this:
http://www.puttingitplainly.com/i_am_that_kid/
and this:
Thomas S Monson said “Choose your love, and love your choice.”
There is no guarantee things will get better in time. There is no guarantee getting out of the business will lead to something better.
Some divorce and find life’s problems are still with them post-divorce.
I don’t think you solve problems by quitting in hopes negatives go away. You solve them by putting energy into something positive that will outweigh negatives that always exist.
Divorce is an option, but brings new challenges. Closing business doors is an option but brings new challenges aND is costly. Leaving the church will still leave challenges to find peace elsewhere and sometimes cost relationships with loved ones.
Some married couples find sticking it out has led to a marvelous relationship they are glad they didn’t give up on 5 years later. Some people thrive at turning a business around that was on the brink of failure. Some find the church has more to offer than just one issue.
I have been apart of 2 startup companies we grew and sold successfully. I’ve chosen to end a marriage too painful to endure. I’ve chosen to stay in the church despite opposing the recent policy.
These are my choices I live with. I choose what I think is best based on how my heart guides me, then I love my choice and find joy in the life I make.
There are no guarantees on anything. Just choices and new trials with each choice.
I’m too invested in church to leave. But I’m forever changed by church experiences that make me sad with policy that hurt families.
I completely understand others who leave the church, like i did on my marriage. I hope they find new endeavors to invest in, with their own challenges…but perhaps challenges that they can realistically be overcome. You win some, you lose some.
You can’t stay stuck in indecision. You move forward one way or another and find a way to make it work.
The only wrong decision is to quit trying and hope others fix it for you.
Whatever choice you decide with your business HG, if you follow your heart, something tells me you and your husband will do just fine.
I’m struggling with this post. Analyzing things in terms of sunk cost only make sense if you’ve already given up on the idea that the Church is God’s preeminent organization on earth or if you’ve given up on trusting God. If you have, then by all means it makes sense to try to find a better return on your investment somewhere else. But if the Church is what it claims to be, then the return on the investment in guaranteed, at least over the long haul, and short-term setbacks/difficulties shouldn’t rock us.
The policy changes put same-sex marriage in the exactly the same category as polygamous marriage in terms of policy. Clearly it deals a severe blow to those who believe the church must eventually accept same-sex marriage, because it calls same-sex marriage not just a law of chastity violation but an act of apostasy. Even if you don’t believe God agrees with the brethren, but you have a spiritual witness to be united with the church, where else are you going to go? You’re not just sticking around because you don’t want to walk away from your investment.
Martin, I don’t agree. You can evaluate options weighing the costs and benefits. Sometimes that takes time to figure it out.
Apostles after the manifesto took time to figure out what to do, and kept things private while figuring it out. It took years to figure out it wasn’t gonna change, and the church was rolling forward.
It is not so either/or. It isn’t easy to know what the future will hold.
I also think in today’s society, there are lots of options where to go. It’s just a choice.
I think I could be accurately described as a liberal activist. I work in the social services doing crisis work and suicide intervention. I am also currently an active member of the church. I don’t hide my concerns about social inequalities that exist in my Mormon community. It is no secret to anyone in my congregation that I am a straight ally. So far my Bishop has no issue with my holding of a temple recommend, which pleases me because I love so many aspects of my faith practice.
So when this policy came out many people contacted me from both my communities wanting to know if this would cause me to leave the church. I suppose there are some issues that would cause me to leave mormonism but on the issues that impact the LGBTQ community I am staying put because regardless of how many sympathizers leave the church gay children will still be born to straight conservative parents. My work in suicide intervention has demonstrated to me that the heartaches these children face are invisible to their parents and their needs are unattended. I do not have any illusions that my staying will somehow impact the brethren but my staying impacts the closeted gay individuals attending my ward. They need safe harbor and I can be that friend for them.
My gay Mormon friends carry a real burden by simply being born into Mormonism during a time that Mormonism is clarifying itself on this issue. I carry the burden of risking discipline or rejection for being open about the wrongness of these types of policies. My church leaders carry the burden of having to judge me. I will not carry the burden of pre-judging myself and determining I need to walk away. The consequence my church must face for exercising their agency in choosing to move forward with these policies is that they must also figure out how to deal with me.
So when there is a need for someone to help move, to visit teach, to take meals in, to donate money, to rescue, to comfort, to share all that I have… my church can count on me to be there and I’m bringing my opinions with me.
Our Savior invites us to endure to the end (Matt. 24:13). He also wants us to receive His servants (Matt. 10:40, D&C 84:36, D&C 112:20). I hope all Latter-day Saints will follow these counsels rather than a selfish sunk costs calculation. To me, it is a joy to be part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — for those who find participation to be burdensome, I’m sorry. Please come back when you’re able.
I’d like to echo one of the themes that has come through the comments and that is that membership, belief and activity in the church is not really akin to the cost-benefit style analysis alluded to in the OP. There are times when it does feel like that, however for me it was more that any difficulty felt as virtue of being a member was just the way it was. No reference to a pay off. No waiting for so called promised blessings. It just was.
Recently, though, I have felt that the church has socially, doctrinally and culturally moved to a point far different from where I am.
I am not discriminatory to people who are gay. But my church is. I do not attempt to cover up my past and present a persona to the world that is not genuine. But my church does. I do not stand up and tell people that I will not apologise to anyone who I might have offended. But my church has.
This has produced a discordant feeling that I have never before felt in the church. And so for me it’s not so much an investment as it is that the church is an organisation who’s values are now very different from my own.
I now feel very much atop the wall that the church has built between it and the rest of the world. And given that, hawkgrrrl, I appreciate your expression of empathy. Thank you.
Ji, if not a cost calculation, what is your motivation for accepting His servants? Just because??
Surely missionaries have a better proposition for inviting investigators than “when you’re ready, come talk to us.”
What’s yours that makes you so confident in your approach to many who struggle now?
Heber13,
It is crucially important that we be willing to receive the Lord’s servants — that’s how we receive the Lord — see Matt. 10:40, D&C 84:36 and D&C 112:20. And it is only through the priesthood held by His servants that we can see the power of Godliness — see D&C 84:20-21. This is my motivation for receiving His servants. I think that if those who were struggling could better appreciate and understand these verses, their healing would be well underway.
As for missionaries, yes, I think their message should be here we are, can we visit with you, please let us know when you want to know more — I think we sometimes think we need to prove that we’re right — and we are right about many things — but the problem with proving that we’re right is the necessary if unintended corollary that someone else is wrong — and that isn’t often productive. And we don’t need to prove that we’re right — we just need to live the Gospel day by day, offering words of hope or faith or consolation or rebuke or instruction or patience or counsel or invitation or whatever from time to time as moved by the Holy Ghost or as required by our roles or responsibilities. People will respond when they’re ready, or not, as they choose.
At least, that’s how I approach these things.
I think there are a few commenters who do not know what sunk costs are. There is nothing negative associated with sunk costs. If I invest in a business and make a 600% return, you can bet I’m going to continue to invest, but the money I already invested is still a sunk cost. A sunk cost is an investment that you’ve already made, be it good or bad, that you can’t take back.
Also, I don’t think hawkgrrrl is trying to imply that we should weigh our time and effort in the church against our perceived eternal blessings. it seems to me that the OP is saying that it is human nature to continue doing something that you have invested in (you love those you serve) and we need to be self aware of this tendency when making decisions.
Some time has passed. The thing I was sure was a hoax or some kind of parody isn’t. A post like this helps me as I ask, “Now what?”
Thank you.
Martin: Maybe it will help you think of things in a new way if you consider the advice from Pres. Uchtdorf at the last General Conference. He said for those who are struggling that maybe they need to simplify and cut back on the non-essential stuff. That’s a way to reduce “future costs.” And he has also decried the tendency to think we can earn our way into the atonement through checklist activities.
We do forget (and leaders sometimes forget) that church is a voluntary activity. Sometimes the cost is very high, but there are ways to reduce those costs. The church is not the same as the gospel.
Those who have resigned in the wake of the policy change or who have struggled with the idea of sunk costs are not struggling because of the gospel, but rather because they perceive the church to have changed its values, or at least that the breach between the church’s values and their own is much more apparent now than before. The question in that case is whether the church has moral authority and is an institution to be trusted. When one has spent his or her entire life building it up, that’s a scary question to face.
Sacrifice wouldnt be sacrifice if you were giving up something easily. The more I have though about sunk cost I think of the savior command to the rich man to sell everything amd give it away. Some are asked to give all wealth, others are asked to give their will. I think will is harder.
Interesting Op Ed in SL Tribune. I wonder if there were mass excommunications, rather than mass resignations, would that cause leaders to re-think the policy? Is it better for the church to kick you out, rather than make it easy on them through a mass resignation?
http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/3185872-155/op-ed-dont-quit-the-church-make
excerpts from the link above.
—-
I think no one should resign. I think it is a great service to the LDS Church, and to the world that the church continues to wound, to make people in the church choose to excommunicate their friends and family in every single case. I think the process should be difficult and miserable, and that the folks who would cleanse their church should be forced to look into the eyes of each person they want to eliminate and say, “We don’t want you.”
Where I am in favor, hopelessly, of a same-sex Mormon future, I am against, realistically, I think, a heartless, vindictive Mormon future. My less-than-hopeless hope is that the people who constitute the church can’t undertake the cruelty of current policy and that the task of spiritually executing their family and friends, face to face, one after another, will transform them, and the church, too, as a matter of course.
The sunk costs idea for me boils down to priorities. Do we let allegiance to past priorities govern our actions today, even though it is not aligned with our current priorities? When I’m helping my mom declutter, I have to help her understand not just that the items she acquired in the past aren’t serving a useful purpose, but that they are impeding her quality of life now (whether it’s making it difficult to move around, taking up valuable storage space, or draining psychologically). So the question then becomes, which is the higher priority for her at this time? No matter how much she may agree logically, it doesn’t take away the emotional hurdle she must overcome.
It’s difficult for any of us to be fully aware of our subconscious allegiances that might be harming us now. I think that’s what Pres. Uchtdorf was getting at when he was encouraging us in times of stress to simplify, to focus on our relationship with God, family, those around us, and ourselves. Take stock with what we are doing in life and realigning our actions to conform with our current priorities. President Wixom’s talk awhile back describing a girl whose testimony crumbled in ashes around her, with faith in Christ as the sole block standing.
I think a lot of people are dealing with testimonies partially in ashes right now, and that’s probably why I think it’s healthy for some to pull back and take time to regroup. Feeling lost and broken sucks, but it does seem to be devastatingly effective in pulling into focus what you really value in life. I just wish it didn’t have to be so painful.
Sorry, took so long to post that I didn’t see Hawkgrrrl’s reference to the same talk by Uchtdorf.
Isn’t the only really pertinent question of of is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the actual Church of Christ???
If it is, one would be giving up what if he/she leaves??? If it is not, the sunk costs are irrelevant. They are sunk in an institution, an idea, that is false. You have to accept your losses and move on.
However, if the church is actually the church of Christ, then whatever costs we have sunk into it would be thrown away if we walk away.
Nothing about the new policy, the policy on children living in a polygamous household, the priesthood ban, the practice of polygamy, answers the question about the truth claims of the Church. Our opinions on those subjects do not answer those claims. But those claims are the most important questions that need to be answered before one decides to stay or walk.
How one obtains those answers has already been laid out by the One claiming to be the Son of God.
Glenn: “Isn’t the only really pertinent question of of is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the actual Church of Christ???”
Hmmm. I take a rather broader definition of the Church of Christ as mentioned in scripture, personally. I don’t think I’m the only one.
Sunk costs is an interesting way of looking at things. Thanks hawwkgrrrl.
Hedgehog,
That is the question again. Is your definition the definition that Christ has for His Church? The question is, did Jesus Christ restore His Church using Joseph Smith as the instrument of the Restoration or not? If not, then all of the hand wringing is wasted breath. The policies of the Church are irrelevant to reality. The sunk costs that people have invested in the church are so much dross.
However, if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the restored Church of Christ from ancient times and Joseph Smith was and is the chosen instrument of that restoration, then the the sunk costs are of inestimable worth, but will be lost if one walks away for good.
After reading the two articles and a few other items from other blogs, I think that there is an overblown reaction, a kneejerk reaction by many rather than reasoned. well though out responses.
Glenn
Glenn,
The Bible tells us the Jews were God’s chosen people. Does that mean they never suffered from apostasy? NO!!! Are you so arrogant to believe that Christ’s church will never suffer from apostasy?
It may be the case that this church WAS the Church of Christ. Joseph gave us over 100 revelations to prove the point. But IS this the Church of Christ now? We have 2 Official Declarations (not full revelations mind you) in the past 125 years. That’s hardly a ringing endorsement of continuing revelation. Furthermore, when a new church policy blatantly contradicts scripture, I think it is worth asking if this IS the Church of Christ (even if it WAS at one time.) I can’t believe this policy is godly, and I ask you: Is there ANYTHING this church could do to cause you to question it? If the answer is no, then you are not “studying it out in your mind.” If the answer is yes, I’d like to hear it.
Really interesting post, hawkgrrrl. I’m sorry that your business is struggling. I like the comparison to how we think about investment in the Church.
I wonder if a lot of commenters aren’t responding negatively to your framing because they want their costs, their investment in the Church, to be worth it. If other people can get “easy” salvation without having to give up everything that they feel like they have, well then that just wouldn’t be fair! I’m guessing this because I feel some of that tendency myself. Definitely when I was a missionary in an area with lots of other Christians whose religions I felt like weren’t difficult enough, I didn’t want them to get easy salvation without having to do all the things I had.
Glenn, if adherence to Christ’s gospel is ultimate reality, then can you elaborate on how church policies are irrelevant? Church policies dictate who accesses saving ordinances or who receives disciplinary action that may result in saving ordinances getting revoked. Bishops use these guidelines in their roles as judges in the House of Israel. Please explain further as to why the policies that govern eligibility of saving ordinances are irrelevant to the gospel of Christ.
#20 ji, you’re still a little vague with “crucially important” and “power of Godliness”. What I assume you are saying is that your cost analysis includes the cost to obey is worth it because the benefit is access to manifestations of God’s power in your life. And that formula works for you, so you assume it is simple and would work for all. If I would better understand the D&C verses, than this policy and the issue of SSM and the church would be clear to me. Is that your take?
My hesitance comes from seeing how faith makes it a black box investment. I don’t know what this “godly manifestation” will be…but it will be worth it some day? And obedience is good…but obedience to what?
Shouldn’t I know a little more before blindly investing?
Vague promises of “I will be blessed” was my hope in my younger years. And then…to my surprise…they didn’t materialize. My life was no more blessed than my neighbors without the priesthood. My life did not include more godly manifestations than my protestant friend.
For all I invested…2 years on a mission, temple marriage, lifetime of tithing, service and hope each Sunday…my personal circumstances still exist. I was blessed along the way, but not in ways that I thought.
I can choose to keep investing, hoping that repeating the same things will eventually lead to new results in my life, some godly manifestation through the priesthood. But after decades of doing that…there is a time to assess if God approves of me doing little else than just obeying authority…or if He wants me to take my 2 talents or 5 talents or whatever He gave me, and do something to make the investment grow to increase talents in my life and return to Him, even if that risk is to stand up for what I believe and navigate my way through a church with policies written for the masses, not the individual circumstances. I don’t grow by following something I don’t feel right about.
Sometimes God wants us to learn things through failure, and so he allows priesthood leaders to make a wrong policy to learn to correct it. The prophet promised blessings to investors in the Kirtland bank, who lost their investment. Were they blessed? Maybe…but not how the prophet promised them.
Sometimes the manifestation of God is that when we think for ourselves, we learn and grow.
I don’t think I have to accept this one church policy to obey what the spirit is telling my soul. I don’t have to reject the brethren because I disagree with them on one issue. It is not all or nothing.
I can sustain the brethren, and obey the gospel principles, even if I decide to withhold my investment into the Kirtland Bank, or in this case, investing in this SSM policy. I will withhold investing in that one thing, and keep investing in church policies that feel right to me. And allow the Lord to teach me so I can decide what to do in future investment opportunities with the church.
I believe God is greater than limiting his power through one priesthood channel. He can bless all his children. And He does each day.
The church is greater than this one policy. Policies will change as we receive further light and knowledge. So…we can make room in the church for varied opinions. The costs and returns are not so simple to define. I don’t think all people who resign just need to read more scripture and they will see it like you do. I think you need more scripture and to experience more failure in life to see it like they do, even if you disagree with them.
The wise servant finds ways to increase talents. The Lord isn’t prescriptive to all how that is done. He is no respector of persons.
I continue to pray that someday soon, the Lord will remove this burden placed on some families in the church. I believe the brethren will continue to look for those signs to do what is right.
Until then, the gospel is greater than the policy. There are ways for all children to receive the blessings that come from priesthood ordinances, because we have temples and proxy work…the timing is not on our terms.
Because I believe in that…then I believe what does matter is we learn to show God who we are becoming as we navigate through policies that I don’t think God cares about.
@Mary Ann,
Please reread my post. I said that if the Church is not the Church of Christ, as defined by Christ, then its policies are irrelevant.
@MH. I am not going to be bound by your opinion of what I have or have not studied out in my own mind. However there are some things that I would question.If an act that was declared a sin worthy at one point were to be suddenly reversed and said that it is now notonly okay, but great, I would question that.
I have posted links to a couple of articles by people who would have been affected by this policy. They have quite a different take on it.
Glenn
Glen’s question could rephrase as is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints the only church with priesthood authority to preform the saving ordinances of the gospel, so if you leave the church, who are you really hurting? Those with same sex attraction are in Esau position in some ways, they so hungry for love and family ties in a Same sex marriage that they may feel they are going to perish. The cost for them can be there birthright, or in this case their church membership. Esau may have not eaten for a few days as he engaged in a unsuccessful hunt.He would have been weak, with little energy. the time of year may have been late winter, early spring when food stores are low. Any food he did have probably would require several hours of cooking. When Jacob said his price for the meal was the birthright Esau discounted the value of the birthright feeling his life was at stake.
The birthright is important because in some cultures and families the recipient could receive vast weath while his siblings are left as near paupers. There is economic uncertainty with the birthright. It might not be around when the time comes to inherit.
So the question remains same sex marriage or the Church, birthright vs a mess of pottage.
Hawk I love this analogy and think it fits perfectly. I know of many LGBT+ youth and adults who have been suicidal and the cost of them remaining in the church was too high. They needed to be out to have a happy/mentally healthy life. There is a point you need to cut your losses instead of holding out hope for a glimmer of improvement.
For me that means a decreased relationship with the church, but not to the Gospel. I obviously had too high of expectations, so down the expectations go even more.
Usually when this discussion of staying/leaving comes up I think of Jane Manning, the african american pioneer who stayed despite the temple ban and the racism that swam around her. The last shall be first and the first shall be last. At the BWMormon Conference this summer the thing that struck me most was the dedication to the Gospel despite the pain inflicted by the Church. It is said by Ta-nahesi Coates, “The source of black power is that they of all people realize how fragile everything really is.”
Heber13,
For me, it’s not a cost-benefit calculation that keeps me in the Church. Rather, it is a deep feeling of faith in and loyalty to our Savior and His servants. Even if it costs me everything and benefits me nothing, I want to be faithful and loyal. I want to be one who builds up, who sustains, who supports, who helps, who contributes, who uplifts, and so forth.
ji,
I like that answer. That is much better than those who believe they are more greatly blessed than others who choose a different path.
Loyalty is admirable.
One good way to build up, help, and uplift is to have compassion and empathy towards others.
If I have to choose my loyalty, I’d rather be loyal to the Savior. I’d rather be one who “builds up, who sustains, who supports, who helps, who contributes, who uplifts, and so forth” with regards to my fellow man, than to be blindly loyal to a policy that seems to blatantly contradict the words and actions of the Savior.
Mormon Exclusivity. The final card to play when up against the wall.
I will never forget a favorite song we sang in the old LTM:
Ye Elders of Israel, come join now with me,
And seek out the righteous wherever they may be.
…
Chorus:
Oh Babylon, Oh Babylon, we bid thee farewell.
We’re going to the mountains of Ephraim to dwell.
The ironic twisted symbolism that is contained in this song. We missionaries were leaving Utah for a foreign country; was Utah and the church wicked Babylon? Or our lives in Utah culture? The biblical mountains of Ephraim- where the Israelites made sacrifices to pagan gods including murdering their children. That brought on the wrath of God in the form of the vicious Assyrians and their demise. Were we going somewhere like that?
I now believe in the days of the pioneers when the song was composed, Babylon was code for the Midwest in America and the mountains of Ephraim was code for Deseret where those designated as of the tribe of Ephraim in patriarchal blessings would dwell in the shadow of stupendous mountains. It described the pioneer trek and had little to do directly with our missionary service.
Such nuances were lost on me as a young missionary. We thoughtlessly sang this song that resonated so deeply with us for unknown reasons. We sang with even more vigor(and honesty?) an unauthorized chorus repeatedly:
Oh babble on, oh babble on, we bid thee farewell.
For we’re going to heaven and you’re going to hell.
I think subconsciously many of us are still singing that song. We listen to no rational arguments, it is all babble. We refuse to think, grow, improve, (repent) and the rest of the song speaks for itself.
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Page 2
I have this math problem. (Actually it is a counting problem).
15 million Mormons, well more like 5 or 10 million, who knows?
6 billion of God’s children on this still mostly green earth.
We Mormons are probably shrinking at this time.
The world population is exploding.
That is about 1 in 1000 people are the exclusive LDS religion. And the ratio is shrinking.
Even in the US my children were the only Mormons in their grade school and some schools have zero active Mormons. But a wonderful world filled with beautiful people seems not to notice.
Is this church so remarkably better that I and everyone else are spontaneously compelled to drag our best friends to it without any encouragement? Hell no! The gospel may well be “true” (whatever that means to you or anyone else) but my current testimony is: my ward sucks.
And this exclusivity is for what reason? Earned ? Deserved? Are we that much better than anyone else? I suspect not.
Our LDS church does not stand out at all except in our own small minds.
When I think about it more, Mormon exclusivity contradicts other core doctrines such as God is good. God is no respecter of persons. “ I come to the lost sheep.” Frankly, I can’t read the gospels in the New Testament and hold the thought of Mormon exclusivity in my head simultaneously. I am not up to the mental gymnastics required to do it.
Life and the challenges it throws upon us are complex. If one answer seems too simple and easy, it probably isn’t the answer. Just believe the church led by Joseph Smith and his successors, nothing else matters. Too easy and too simple to be true. Even our leaders admit they make mistakes.
I do wish people would not resign. I wish they would stay and raise hell. (Not what the Savior taught).
One good way to build up, help, and uplift is to have compassion and empathy towards others.
I agree, and I do. I want to be loyal to our Savior and His servants. It’s easier to have compassion and empathy for others when one already loves the Savior. The Church teaches members to have compassion and empathy for others.
“The Church teaches members to have compassion and empathy for others.” That’s often true.
The part of your essay where you mentioned being more shocked by the responses of the people who stay … that was me. That’s how I’ve felt lately.
I left because I realized I couldn’t support the church’s treatment of others. That was more than five years ago now. It wasn’t even a choice, for me; this was just something that I couldn’t do, anymore. Not when I was conscious of the innocent people who were being hurt and literally killed by the church.
I thought that other people would do so if they knew, too.
The last Mormon church service I went to, I spoke up in class and questioned whether it was really a good thing that Abraham was going to commit ritual human sacrifice in exchange for power. I got told to be quiet and not try to correct the teacher again, by my own parents.
It was effective foreshadowing.