Nick Literski was a blogger at Mormon Matters, ran a site on LDS Temples and was married with five girls. He came out of the closet, was divorced, and has gone through many other transitions, though he often comments at Wheat & Tares. This is his story.
I understand you used to be involved in the study of LDS Church History, what can you tell us about that time in your life and what insights you gained from studying history?
Initially, my study of Mormon history was really motivated by a strong desire to know as much as possible of the teachings and practices of early Mormon leaders. That desire was insatiable. I was determined to know as much as possible about the doctrines of the restoration. I also grew to love the history itself, more and more.
Oddly, that became a time of great contradictions. My studies raised as many questions as they did answers. My faith in early Mormonism increased, but I also increasingly saw distinctions between early Mormonism and the modern LDS church. I became somewhat of a fundamentalist—-not in the “go join the FLDS and marry more wives” kind of way that we talk about Mormon Fundamentalists, but rather in a broad sense of dissatisfaction with many changes. I increasingly saw how early doctrines and practices had been abandoned or transformed.
This became the beginning of my disaffection, though for many years I remained firmly committed to the LDS church.
Eventually, I took on an intense study of the influence of Freemasonry on early Mormonism. That project honestly began as a testimony-builder. I initially saw Freemasonry as something of a “prophecy” of Joseph Smith’s ministry, and wanted to really examine that fully. Over the next four years of research, I came to a different conclusion, which ultimately led to my resignation from the LDS church.

You were also a blogger at Mormon Matters What was that like?
In all honesty, I volunteered to blog at Mormon Matters entirely too early after my resignation from the LDS church. I wasn’t ready to engage topics in a way that was fair and open. Like many who find themselves needing to resign from the LDS church (whether due to doctrine, being LGBT, historical concerns, social justice concerns, etc.), I had a level of anger.
Couple that with inexperience in generating blog posts that would really lead to worthwhile discussions, and my participation wasn’t very effective at the time. By the time Wheat and Tares was created, I had gone “inactive” as a blogger at Mormon Matters.
What do you believe religion and the gospel (with a small or a large “g”) should be?
I am impressed that “gospel” literally means “good news.” I believe that spirituality—in whatever form we practice it—should bring us joy. I do not believe that spirituality should cause suffering, even with the promise of some future relief. I do not touch a hot stove in order to enjoy some future time when the burn stops hurting. In saying this, I believe we have to acknowledge that what brings one person joy may bring another person pain, and vice versa.
As a Mormon, I once believed that I possessed objective truth, without which nobody could have joy. In the decade since I resigned my membership in the LDS church, I have become far less concerned with discovering some absolutist “truth” (with a capital “t” and a trademark symbol), and far more concerned with discovering what works.
In my work with helping others discover and deepen their own spirituality, I’ve realized that I have no reason to concern myself with whether a person’s religious beliefs or practices are “true.” Instead, my concern is how those beliefs and practices actually function in a person’s life.
If the LDS church brings someone joy in their life, that’s a wonderful thing! If the LDS church brings pain and suffering in a person’s life (as it often does, for example, for LGBT individuals), then find some other way to engage with the Divine!
I understand you’ve moved on to other endeavors and just had a Master’s Thesis that was successfully defended. Could you share what your thesis is about and what you are doing now?
My thesis was entitled, “Dance Your Own Dance: Spiritual Guidance as a Support for Gay Men in Creating an Affirming, Sustaining Spirituality.” I examined how gay men (really all LGBT folk, but a master’s thesis is narrowly focused, out of necessity) from non-affirming religious backgrounds typically experience conflict between their religious and sexual identities, which may result in significant emotional turmoil.
For many years, researchers have adopted a model for resolving this conflict which centers on four strategies: rejecting religious identity, rejecting LGBT identity, compartmentalization, and integration. Unfortunately, this model was developed through examination of a gay-affirming Christian church, and is entirely Christianity-centric in its outlook. Even the original scholar who proposed the model has acknowledged this fact.
In my thesis, I showed how none of these four strategies truly “resolved” anything at all. I then identified spiritual bricolage—a process of drawing elements from multiple traditions to create a unique personal spirituality—as a fifth strategy for resolution. Through individual interviews, I showed how gay men had engaged in this process to create an affirming personal spirituality which addressed their unique spiritual needs.
At this time, I am beginning to build my professional spiritual guidance practice. Spiritual guidance is really about being a companion and witness on the client’s spiritual journey, whatever that journey may be. In my practice, I am not attached to any particular tradition, but instead meet my clients where they are, asking questions and helping them to discover and deepen their own relationship with the Divine. It’s a wonderful experience, and ultimately a spiritual exercise for me, as I see each client as an individual face of the Divine in this world.
In October, I will begin a combined MA/PhD program in Depth Psychology, with emphasis in Jungian and Archetypal Studies at Pacifica Graduate Institute. My master’s program in spiritual guidance provided me with a good introduction to Jung, and I am eager to delve much further into his work, along with that of the brilliant men and women who came after him.

Do you have any other major projects or ideas?
I’m interested in expanding my research on spirituality within the LGBT community. In particular, I look forward to gathering more personal narratives. Interviewing men about their spiritual journeys for my thesis turned out to be one of the most sacred experiences of my life. I am also interested in examining how our culture’s experience of LGBT people is affecting spirituality on a larger scale.
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How is our increased understanding impacting matters of faith?
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What archetypal roles do LGBT people play within our culture, and what needs do they serve?
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How can LGBT people contribute more fully to our larger culture, and bring about more joy?
What rule or commandment do you think is important for everyone to consider?
While I am no longer a Christian, I believe Jesus taught the most important lesson any of us could learn. He taught us to love. He taught us to love the Divine, to love ourselves, and to love others.
Aside from that, when I came out of the closet a decade ago, I replaced Mormonism’s elaborate system of commandments with three basic values: (1) I would never again hide who I am, (2) I would not harm others intentionally, and (3) I would try to do good in the world. While I’m far from perfect, I’ve continued to try and live up to those values.
If you could give one piece of advice to our readers, what would it be?
As Shakespeare said, “To thine own self be true.” Some might consider me naïve, but I truly believe that each of us is good at our core. To the degree that we are authentic to who we truly are, we will be a blessing to ourselves and to others.
Anything else you would like to add?
Thank you for inviting me to participate!

I’m glad to be able to have posted this interview explaining what happened to Nick and to provide some framing in light of his continued involvement in the bloggernacle.
I had some formatting problems but am pleased that it displays properly on Safari (iPhone) now, even if Firefox now has a problem with one of the pictures.
I’d invite polite questions and follow-up as well as comments by his friends and family.
Nick is a really nice person. That is how I see him.
I agree with many things he shared in this post. I particularly liked his three point approach to life:
“(1) I would never again hide who I am, (2) I would not harm others intentionally, and (3) I would try to do good in the world.”
I feel the same way as a TBM (true blue Mormon).
Nick and I are opposites in many ways, but interestingly enough we share core values, but implement them very differently.
It is also interesting to note, that the zeitgeist in the bloggernacle is welcoming to Nick and cool towards TBM.
Very interesting interview….there were two parts in particular that stuck out to me:
I am aware that certain forms and expressions of spirituality have caused immense suffering, but this seems like a very absolute statement…I mean, isn’t it ever possible for something to bring long-term benefit at short-term costs? If someone doesn’t immediately see results from working out or going to the gym or whatever, and in fact, feels pretty badly at first, does that mean they shouldn’t keep up with that?
It seems to me that the real concern is determining what short term costs are worth it, and what long-term benefits are likely to happen. It wouldn’t be worth suffering for something in the future that is unlikely to happen…
The second thing that caught my eye was this:
So, are you saying that even a gay-affirming Christianity cannot “resolve” anything? What is it about Christianity that holds it back, so to speak?
Andrew, that wasn’t a critique of Christianity. Rather, it was pointing out that the researchers in question were committed Christians who were very much intent on finding ways to retain LGBT individuals within Christianity. This particular bias made their research problematic in a spiritually diverse culture.
As for resolving conflict between religious and sexual identities, some explanation is in order:
(1) Rejecting religious identity does not resolve the conflict between religious and sexual identities. It avoids the conflict, by attempting to shun an important aspect of the person’s identity. BTW, demonstrating their bias, the researchers defined “rejecting religious identity” as either becoming an atheist or joining a non-Christian religion.
(2) Rejecting LGBT identity does not resolve the conflict between religious and sexual identities. Again, it avoids the conflict, by attempting to shun an important aspect of the person’s identity.
(3) Compartmentalization does not resolve the conflict between religious and sexual identities. Compartmentalization is, in effect, an attempt to live a double life, pretending that neither identity has any interaction whatsoever with the other. That’s simply not sustainable. As soon as those two aspects of identity come into contact–and they inevitably will–the supposed resolution disintegrates.
(4) Integration does not resolve the conflict between religious and sexual identities. The researchers characterized this as essentially redefining the religious identity in a way which made the person feel okay being both Christian and LGBT. This was chiefly done by reinterpreting Christian doctrines and scripture, etc. While this may come the closest of any of the four strategies to resolving identity conflict, it is extremely rare in the “real world.” John Dehlin’s research among Mormon LGBT individuals demonstrated that only about 4% claimed to have successfully engaged this strategy.
So no, I am not saying that Christianity “holds us back,” nor am I disparaging LGBT-affirming Christian groups.
If you’d like a more complete analysis of these issues, you’re welcome to read my full thesis—just contact me privately, and I’ll be happy to share it with you.
I am aware that certain forms and expressions of spirituality have caused immense suffering, but this seems like a very absolute statement…I mean, isn’t it ever possible for something to bring long-term benefit at short-term costs?
You’re right–it’s a somewhat absolutist statement, and all absolutist statements should be eyed with a bit of suspicion. (Wait…that was another absolutist statement, wasn’t it?)
My concern is really about how some religious traditions excuse, or even inflict, suffering on the basis of a promised afterlife reward. I’m a huge fan of Lehi’s statement in The Book of Mormon, “men [and women] are, that they might have joy.” If your current spiritual path is making you miserable, I personally believe it’s time to make some changes in your spiritual path.
Nick, is there an online version of your thesis?
Not yet, Gilgamesh, but if you send me an email address, I’ll be happy to share it.
Correction! I forgot that I set it up on DropBox to be available. Here’s the link to download it:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r6al2f478y6xl7x/Literski_SG_Thesis_05182015.pdf?dl=0
Quote of Nick in the interview: “Like many who find themselves needing to resign from the LDS church (whether due to doctrine, being LGBT, historical concerns, social justice concerns, etc.), I had a level of ANGER.” (emphasis mine) – At least you admit it.
Like another respondent, I too would like to see a copy of Nick’s Master’s Thesis. Given that my education is in Engineering and Nuclear Physics, likely I don’t have the educational credentials to render a meaningful critique, but I have little doubt that Nick could and has made his arguments well. Those that reviewed mine had different viewpoints, criteria, and an agenda in mind, but at least I didn’t have to have mine reviewed personally by the ‘Old Man” (Rickover), as he was retired by SecNav Lehman back in ’82 and didn’t exactly go willingly.
Hi Douglas! The link to download my thesis is in comment #8.
I’m curious how Nick, as a gay man interprets Jung’s theory of the anima/animus archetypes, which is used to explain the attraction men have to women, and women have to men. Is the anima of a gay man said to be conscious as opposed to unconscious in a strait man?
Great question, Nate, and one which I hope to become much more qualified to take on as I go forward in my next program.
Jung’s anima/animus archetypes have been criticized in more recent scholarship, precisely because they are heteronormative and gender-binary. As I understand it, Jung simply didn’t address homosexuality much at all (unlike Freud, who said it was nothing to be ashamed of, and nothing that should hinder a productive life, etc.) While he was brilliant, Jung was a creature of his own time and place, just as all of us are. I look forward to studying more in terms of how subsequent scholars have attempted to bring this model more into line with our current understandings of sexuality and gender.
How does one pronounce “Literski” correctly?
First syllable: “Li” with a soft “i” sound, as in “lift”
Second syllable: “ter” like “TUR” with the emphasis here
Third syllable: “ski” like sliding down mountains fast.
Before I even read this I am saying, “Thank you, thank you, thank you.” Happy to read about Nick. Been reading his comments since the Mormon Matters days. Great to have some more background.
Nick—With the all or nothing approach of Mormonism that is accepted by so many members and the feeling of betrayal that so many leave with, I believe most members leaving the church end up agnostics, deists or atheists. What kept you on a spiritual path after leaving the church? I am fine with my agnosticism but my wife struggles being adrift after becoming a non-believer.
#16 (Brian) – Suggest a look at Ephesians 4:11-14, especially the last verse. In my full-time mission days, “nella Bella Italia”, the Bible translation of the ‘aCattlico’ version we used in the early ’80s renders the ‘to and fro’ phrase in English as “di qua et la”, which has a more vivid meaning of turbidity in Italian.
Brian, it really took me 4-5 years to “purge” from my years of LDS experience, before I could engage with my own spirituality in a meaningful way. I had looked at various paths, but couldn’t make myself invest energy in them. I attended a gay men’s transformational retreat, where I had a spiritual experience that started me on the path of rediscovering my own spiritual gifts. In my experience, Mormonism had taught me to attribute my spiritual gifts to the LDS church, rather than to my own relationship with the Divine. The threat was always “If you leave us, you lose everything!” It took time for me to figure out that my spiritual experiences and gifts were truly internal—gifts from the Divine to me—not functions of my former religious tradition.
During that “purge” time, I was certainly agnostic, and very nearly an atheist. I never did regain faith in “God” as an anthropomorphic father figure, but I have come to see various culture’s deities as “masks” through which I can approach the Divine. I’ve ultimately ended up being more of a pantheist, seeing all of creation (and all persons, in particular) as manifestations of the Divine.
All I can ultimately say is be patient with yourselves. In my work helping others to discover and deepen their relationship with the Divine, I find that things unfold in their own time and manner. I don’t think spirituality responds well to our attempts to force the issue.
Nick, I knew you had studied masonry in depth. Since i just posted on the topic, do you have anything insightful to add along those lines?
MH, due to my own interactions with, and opinions about, your primary source in that post, I have chosen not to engage with it. Suffice it to say that I have repeatedly challenged statements by that individual which I know cannot be supported by the historical record, because I’ve personally travelled and examined the records first hand. Every time I do so, he suddenly can’t recall his precise source, and promises to “get back to me” after he checks at home. To date, he has never once followed through with that. It’s best I not get in the middle of what could easily become a personal spat.
Nick,
Be careful; Pacifica Graduate Institute is a for-profit institution. For-profits carry a negative stigma akin to the University of Phoenix. I actually covered for-profits in the literature review of my own master’s thesis and would advise anyone researching schools to steer clear of the for-profits.
Here are a couple of articles reporting on lawsuits against your school:
http://www.independent.com/news/2014/mar/26/more-plaintiffs-join-lawsuits-against-pacifica-gra/
http://www.courthousenews.com/2014/03/24/66401.htm
Before you go into major debt seeking one of these “degrees,” think about whether or not your credential will be worth what you are paying.
Good luck to you!
Thank you for your concern, Christine. I am well aware of the ownership structure and business model of Pacifica Graduate Institute. I am also well aware that a small number of students have made some very questionable claims, which are adamantly refuted by other students (and which don’t seem to have gotten any traction in court since they were filed). Those who know me well are aware that I don’t make major decisions without researching them. While I cannot claim to have produced a full literature review covering all for-profit universities, I would resist lumping Pacifica in with the University of Phoenix. Pacifica has historically had the support and involvement of several of the most prominent scholars in depth psychology, even to the point of becoming the permanent custodian of some of those scholars’ life work. As a result, Pacifica houses important research collections, such as the papers of Joseph Campbell, James Hillman, and Marija Gimbutas.
The value of a degree is ultimately a subjective matter, of course. For example, some would question the value of my law degree, which was obtained from Northern Illinois University College of Law—a fully ABA accredited and state sponsored university. Why? Because it carries a continuing stigma among Chicago law firms, where hiring managers are well aware that the school was established in the 1970s for the specific purpose of increasing minority access to legal education. Accordingly, NIU’s law graduates are rarely hired for “large firm” law positions, and the school has become known for its support of public interest law. When I attended in the late 1990’s, we had a guest alumna speaker who specialized in work to protect children from abuse. She boasted of her $15,000 annual salary (no, I didn’t miss a zero there).
Education is obviously a significant investment of money, time, and hard work. Multiple factors play into making that investment. At my age, using ROI as the determining factor would be somewhat laughable, but I’m okay with that. I’m looking forward to studying what I love, and expanding what my favorite high school English teacher always referred to as our “pitifully narrow horizons.”
Nick, I know I’ve invited you to write a guest post on masonry before, but I want you to know I’m serious. I would really like to hear what you have to say about masonry in the endowment (even if it is not faith-affirming.) If you would prefer not to write a blog post specifically, could you direct me to something you’ve written along those lines, so that I could review it with the potential to summarize what you’ve written?
My other questions are these. Did you come out as gay during your marriage or after? How did your wife and children react? Do you have a good relationship with them now? (If it is too personal, please ignore.)
My former spouse knew, seven years into the 18 year marriage, that I was attracted to men. Of course, for many years, I believed this was a defect that I needed to “overcome”—-my “cross to bear,” so to speak. My actual coming out openly as a gay man was simultaneous with the decision to divorce. (No, there was not a potential romantic interest in the wings, etc.).
My former spouse was disappointed, but not particularly surprised. We had a high-conflict marriage, due largely to my own constant attempt to be someone other than who I was, and my resentment at feeling “trapped.” So in some ways, the decision to divorce was a relief to both of us, aside from the issue of my being gay. Our daughters were likewise unsurprised at the divorce part, since they’d seen the two of us in action for years.
Coming out to my daughters was a positive experience, for the most part. My eldest was actually relieved, as she’s my most intuitive child—she had suspected for most of her life that I was gay, but guessed it must all be in her head. My relationship with each of my daughters has varied. All but one are adults now. The younger two grew up very present to their mother’s experience, as well as a ward family which readily demonized me after the divorce (the bishop wrote about how I represented Satan’s attack on “their” family), so the level of communication is not yet what I would like. My middle daughter actually lived with my partners and me for nearly two years. My second daughter doesn’t communicate a great deal with me, but that varies. My eldest has become a wonderful advocate for the LGBT community, and is the easiest to relate with these days.
I would hope that the “take-away” from me answering this question is one of emphatically discouraging mixed orientation marriages. Despite official leadership statements, many gay and lesbian LDS individuals seemingly believe (as I once did) that their faith will make everything work out, and they will go on to marital bliss with an opposite sex partner, despite having little or no capacity for genuine intimacy. A few manage, but they are rare (and inevitably find a way to make money by flaunting themselves as examples, oddly). My 21 year old self was deep in denial, and would have had a hard time hearing it, but OH, how I wish I could have talked with “him” before he married, and warned him of the turmoil his choice would eventually bring to his then-fiancée and future their children!
As for Freemasonry, suffice it to say that I consider ritual similarities with the Endowment to be the trivial tip of a very large iceberg. In my opinion, the evidence demonstrates that Joseph Smith based a great deal of his new religion on the legendary and ceremonies of Freemasonry—not just the three degrees that most exposes and apologists debate over, but the much wider corpus of Masonic ritual and lore. Personally, I think he was a genius, who was a “prophet” in the sense that he created a spiritual tradition which has served millions of people very well. I simply don’t believe that he was the recipient of a “one true religion,” as taught within Mormonism. All of my research materials were turned over to Joe Steve Swick, who has taken the research further and is preparing a final manuscript for publication. I suggest that serious inquiries on the topic be directed to him.
Nick Literski wrote: ” would hope that the “take-away” from me answering this question is one of emphatically discouraging mixed orientation marriages.”
AGREED, and I didn’t need your anecdote of what you experienced (but thanks for being open about it both in this thread) to know that’s a BAD idea. To encourage a man who has strong same-sex sexual feelings to take on the responsibilities of marriage in the ‘traditional’ sense, when he is internally conflicted, reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. It’s sad that SOME Church leaders had this naive notion that either ‘nature’ would override or that somehow the Lord would just take away the ‘gayness’ if the man went through the motions of a ‘traditional’ marriage. Experience, but even common sense, tells us that the Lord doesn’t work that way. He wouldn’t just ‘give’ Oliver Cowdrey the ability to translate the BoM plates just for the asking, Oliver had to ‘study it out in his own mind’ and THEN ask what was right. No less, for a man who is gay or at least Bi, he’d have to work out his issues and decide first how he’s going to live his life, then appeal for help not only in spiritual ways but also temporal (extensive counseling and therapy). Such a man should not feel obligated to marry out of some feeling that it’s an affirmation of faith. Rather, he should wait until he feels he can live as a heterosexual man for the rest of his days, and if that means he doesn’t marry at the same time as his peers,so be it. I’m glad that now gay LDS men are being counseled to NOT marry their way out of their predicament.
I wish I could open up more how this is applicable for someone very dear to me in the converse sense. Suffice it that though she wants to live IAW the Law of Chastity, past experience isn’t easy to forget nor do old habits die hard. She believes that he desire to be ‘straight’ can be permanent, but at times get a bit frustrated with the ignorance of LDS members who have no idea what it’s like, even some leaders.
Thanks Nick. I went to dinner tonight with Joe and we talked freemasonry. I didn’t know you turned over your materials, but I will chat with him.
I’m glad that now gay LDS men are being counseled to NOT marry their way out of their predicament.
In terms of “official” counsel, this is true. In terms of culture, however, there’s some serious room for improvement. It’s become a bit trendy for gay LDS men to be open about their sexual orientation, while publicizing their commitment to an opposite sex marriage. We saw this with the regrettable TLC program, “My Husband’s Not Gay.” Fortunately, those men’s self-promotion (at the expense of their wives) brought more ridicule than respect. Others, however, have turned their “gay man married to a woman” story into lucrative careers, or at the very least obtained substantial notoriety. They end up receiving adulation from other LDS members who view them as self-sacrificing and super-faithful. Then, straight LDS members take the stories of these men, shove them into the faces of their young gay family members, and cry out, “See? It doesn’t matter that you’re gay, because if you’re really faithful, you can marry an opposite sex partner!” Sometimes that sort of pressure makes official statements pale in comparison.
Douglas, I truly hope that your loved one is able to find peace and happiness.
Nick,
I just ran across this thread today. I attended the 2005 MHA conference in Vermont where you presented your fascinating paper. I keenly remember the dismissive but unresponsive response. I’ve been hoping to see your presentation published in some form ever since. Now that you are going in a different direction (best wishes thereon!), is there any way I could get a copy of your paper?