I find it ironic that upon giving a person a Book of Mormon, they will probably in that day or the next read about how the initial central figure of the story is called upon by the spirit to kill another man, impersonate him and steal from him. Peace and love come a little later in the book…
In an attempt to obtain the plates, a drunken Laban appears before Nephi. Nephi goes through a series of practical and philosophical rationale as to why or why he should not kill Laban. This is a short summary:
- Before anything else happens, Nephi takes Laban’s sword from its sheath. (Why does he do this?) He expresses appreciation for its fine workmanship.
- With the sword in his hand, the Spirit constrains Nephi to Kill Laban
- Nephi resists and says, “Never at any time have I shed the blood of man”
- The spirit then told Nephi that Laban had been placed there by the Lord
- Nephi then lists three reasons why he might kill Laban
- Laban wanted to kill Nephi
- Laban would not hearken to the Commandments of the Lord
- Laban had taken Nephi’s property
- The Spirit then spoke to Nephi again, saying
- Slay him, Laban has been delivered into your hands
- The Lord slays the wicked to bring about his purposes
- It is better that one man perish than a whole nation perish
- Nephi then rationalises
- The Lord had said if he kept his commandments he would be blessed
- He could not keep the law without the records which were engraven on brass
- The Lord had delivered Laban into Nephi’s hands for that purpose
These are some very interesting arguments. Principles of obedience to God, freedom, rights of the individual vs the rights of many, the end justifying the means and the hope of a better world are all contained to a greater or lesser extent in Nephi’s wrestle with the Spirit and himself. Many of these arguments are relevant to a discussion around gun control and ownership. Interestingly – and obviously – Nephi was using a deadly weapon during this incident. It got me thinking about how the principles of the Gospel might be related to and affect someones beliefs and actions relating to guns. And I also wondered what position Nephi might have taken on this issue, given these interesting arguments and his ultimate use of a deadly weapon to take someones life.
I live in a country with very strict gun laws. Gun violence, whilst it does exist, is not common. We have a low murder rate and our country is a relatively safe place to visit and live.
In 1996 in Tasmania Martin Bryant went on a killing spree, murdering 35 people. The guns he used included semi-automatic rifles and shotguns. It remains Australia’s (and one of the worlds) deadliest shooting. Following this incident, gun laws were enacted that significantly restricted gun ownership and prohibited many firearms from being owned at all. A summary of our gun laws include.
– ownership of a firearm is granted on establishment of a genuine reason such as being a farmer, for employment, sport or target shooting or a collector. Personal protection or protection of others is not a genuine reason
– machine guns, assault rifles and certain types of shotguns are prohibited
– all gun owners must be licensed
– all firearms must be registered
– depending on the category of firearm, all firearms must be stored in accordance with strict storage requirements
Many Australians, including me, struggle to understand many of the arguments supporting the need for more guns – particularly in places like the USA. I believe I’ve heard most of them. I think it needs to be said that our two countries are so vastly different in this aspect that our solution to this would most certainly not work in the USA.
One of the more bizarre arguments goes along this line.
- Bad guys have guns and kill people
- Good guys need more guns
- If good guys had more guns, good guys would kill the bad guys and/or the bad guys would get scared and not come out with their guns and kill people anymore
This is nicely highlighted in the following statements:
Larry Pratt (GOoA)- “Gun control supporters have the blood of little children on their hands. Federal and state laws combined to insure that no teacher, no administrator, no adult had a gun at the Newtown school where the children were murdered.”
Wayne LaPierre (NRA) – “The only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun,” he said.
This type of argument makes a number of assumptions:
- In a flooded gun market like the USA, statistically either nearly everyone has a gun (90 guns per 100 population), or a number of people have a handful of guns each.
- The checks and balances do not appear to me (an outsider) to be sufficient
- Where does this argument end – when is enough guns enough? If, for our purposes, all the good guys had guns, would that be the end?
- Who decides who the good guys and the bad guys are? To the gangsters, the cops are the bad guys and visa versa.
- Are good guys always good guys – or can good guys do bad things sometimes?
I don’t pretend to have any real answers to what is a very complex, multifaceted situation. As I said, our answer would not work in the US.
When I think about the fundamental differences between countries on this issue, it seems to me that a large part of the rationale for having a gun is cultural. In the USA it seems culturally supported to own a gun – it’s part of the Constitution, it’s therefore socially acceptable etc. In Australia it is not in our culture. Gun ownership is seen as a fringe type of behaviour. It is not in our vernacular to be speaking about the need to protect ourselves if the Government wont. More so in the Church…I would go so far as to say that many church members here would consider gun ownership and church membership incompatible.
The relationship between a culture and a behaviour is fairly well established. What is more interesting for me is the relationship between religious principles and gun ownership. Are principles of faith, hope and charity reasons to own a firearm? Is it that there is an absence of those principles in the world that makes gun ownership necessary? Is the principle of freedom reason to own a firearm? To defend it? To enforce it? Is culture and societal pressure more of a contributing factor to gun ownership and a pro gun stance than belief in and adherence to religious principles? Is the particular history of the LDS Church (for those that live in the USA perhaps) conducive and supportive of owning a gun – ie persecution, protection of family etc??
Would Nephi be a member of the NRA??
Discuss.
Wheat & Tares 
Interesting questions. And I believe the situation in Britain is much like that in Australia. We’re frequently baffled by the US attitudes to guns.
One thing that seems to run as an undercurrent in comments I’ve seen in other discussions though, and which I don’t think you mentioned, is a distrust of government in the US. It’s as though the government are the ultimate potential bad guys. Given the military hardware the government can access, that doesn’t feel to me like a logical position.
I’m a gun owner, I have them for sport. I’ve always been ambivalent about it because I know statistically the probability is much higher that they could be used to shoot someone I love or I know than a bad guy but as the US uses “terrorism” to manufacture consent to remove our rights and freedoms moving us strongly toward a corrupt fascist (meaning the marriage of corporations and the state) police state (see the recent and ongoing militarization of US police departments) that now *wants my guns* I’m reluctantly becoming becoming more pro NRA.
In the ten commandments it says “Thou shallt not kill” which I interpret as thou shallt not take human life without authority to do so. The authority would need to come from God. In the case of Nephi and Laban that authority was given as it was with Moses and Joshua in spite of what others would think, making Moses and Joshua genecidists( I can’t find a word for what I want to say – ‘killing total populations’). I don’t carry a gun but I suppose the time could come when I will wish with everything in me that I had carried one. I think it’s the useless slaughter that everyone is getting sick of. From the scriptures it’s hard for me to tell how much value we should put on our lives or on the lives of our loved ones but I believe, in a real time event, I would opt for killing the enemy – not just wounding him, but killing him.
That’s an interesting observation about Nephi taking Laban’s sword. I’d never noticed that. My interpretation is that he was inspired by God (the Spirit, whatever) to do so. This was not a time to go and study the scriptures and fast and pray about it. He had to be spiritually ready for the situation at hand and he proved he was ready even though it still took some explaining by the angel, without which Nephi would have been a murderer.(Read it for yourself.) It’s not an easy subject, but yes, Nephi needed to do what he did to please God.
I’m sorry I didn’t answer the question – Would Nephi be a member of the NRA? I don’t know. If God would have told him to join, then he would have. But that just raises another question.
The people that hoard guns (other than hunting and sport), rationalize it under the guise of “protection.” Their definition of protection spans the gamut from personal protection from local crime to protection from the government. they don’t trust the police, the military and the government in general. Ironically, they are usual the same people that wrap themselves in the American flag and honor the military and the first responders.
But, they don’t really trust them.
They fear the people who don’t believe as they do and, frankly, if anyone were to take “action” against the government, it is these folks.
Nephi would not be a member of the NRA.
“We’re frequently baffled by the US attitudes to guns.”
Why?
I carry a loaded weapon with me most of the time. I was pulled over about a year ago and I told the COP I have a concealed carry permit and had a loaded gun in the car (which you don’t need a permit for in Utah) and he responded “who doesn’t”
He is right, almost everyone in Utah has a gun and you don’t see mass shooting or wide scale problems in Utah. In fact, when a gunman tried to commit mass murder in Trolley Square (a local mall) he was killed before he could create to many problems. It is estimated there are 18,000 permits at the University of Utah. You would never see a situation like the West Virginia University shooting.
I don’t understand why people don’t get this simple concept. Keep guns in the hands of good people and do every thing possible to keep them away from crazy people or criminals.
I need to clarify something. You can carry a gun in your car without a permit as it is considered part of your residence in Utah. You do need a permit to carry a LOADED gun elsewhere — schools, shopping malls (even if there is a posted sign that says you can’t), theaters,etc. You can open carry without a permit as long as the weapon is not concealed and is not loaded.
So, in Utah malls and theaters and schools there are many people carrying a weapon.
LDS_Aussie: Prior to the ’96 ban, was there much of a hunting culture in Australia? In the U.S., it seems that support for gun ownership falls along urban/rural lines. Urban Americans associate guns with gangs, violence, and murder. Those of us in rural areas associate them with hunting and/or sport shooting. This sport shooting is usually not formal practice at the range, but shooting tin cans and clay pigeons with friends on the desert. To us, banning guns makes as much sense as banning baseball bats. They’re both potentially dangerous recreational tools.
As to your original question, I’d answer yes, Nephi would support the right of owning weapons for self defense. Not based on 1 Ne 4, but on 2 Ne. 5 (v 14) “And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us”
As of last count, Utah has issued over 540,000 conceal carry permits.
I have lived in the US for all but the year and a half I served as a missionary, and frankly *I* am baffled by US gun policy and the attitudes of many folks around gun ownership and gun laws. I’d love to see something like what you describe in Australia. That seems imminently more reasonable than the current state of firearm policy in the US.
I definitely think a large number of gun advocates don’t trust the government to protect them. That is cited as their main motivator. I think Mormon history could contribute to this idea, since Mormon’s were literally at war with the federal government at one time. I think there is a fear that if the prophet commanded something that the government disagreed with, we could easily find ourselves in that position again. I don’t think this is likely, but I can understand why people fear it.
Also, coming from Utah, I know that the majority of people here hunt for sport. They often collect guns as part of their hunting hobby. In my personal opinion, killing animals for fun runs contrary to the gospel. Most people say they do it for the meat, but the fact is after spending money on guns and ammo and butchers, it’s almost always cheaper to get your meat at the grocery store. The majority of hunters in Utah do it as a hobby. While I personally find this killing for fun reprehensible, I am glad to know that if there’s a zombie apocalypse, I am surrounded by experienced hunters.
I am baffled by the total ignorance of those who want to do things like ban so called assault weapons because they look dangerous. Many hunting rifles have the equivalent firepower so what they are banning is the cool looking shape and the cool flash suppressor on the end of the barrel, but they aren’t banning any kill power. Banning high capacity magazines makes far more sense. They are also chipping away at the second amendment. Finally there are far more deadly (in terms of loves lost) issues to regulate if the goal is to improve safety and save lives.
#5 – Jeff, the nice thing about a FREE country is that one’s man’s ‘hoard’ is another man’s ‘pitiful inventory’. Another nice thing about FREEDOM, if actually observed, is that no (wo)man, as long as he is of sound mind and law-abiding (the duty of Government to take away firearms from felons and the deranged is self-evident and can be construed as ‘well-regulation’ of the ‘unorganized militia – e.g., all able-bodied adults) owes ANY explanation as to reason or intended use of said firearms.
What you derisively term ‘wrapping in the flag’ can be best summed by the expression, “I love my country but fear my Government (e.g., it’s abuse of power)”. And that’s yet another argument in favor of NOT ‘infringing’ firearm ownership and deployment. Or put simply: CITIZENS are armed, subjects are not.
The difference between the US, which FOUGHT a ‘revolution’ (perhaps King George III and Lord North did find we Yanks revolting, indeed…), and the other former members which were DOMINIONS, and still legally subject to the British crown (hence why in WWI the UK could muster up the Anzacs to get slaughtered at Gallipoli), is that we Yanks, at least when we got started, saw Government as being established by the people; the Federal Government being the servant of the several states and the people at large. In the “Commonwealth”, all are SUBJECTS (though we do owe most of our laws and legal traditions to Britain) so if the powers that be want to take away the nasty guns, they must comply. A ‘real’ American relinquishes his firearm, save under due process of law as previously described, when it can be pried from his cold, dead, fingers…
Do you not recall one of the features of medieval society was that one had to be knighted in order to bear ‘arms’ (before firearms were devised, of course), hence conferring the status of nobility, and for any commoner to bear arms was to risk summary execution? Your typical medieval blacksmith, butcher, farmer, or lumberjack had to content himself with the tools of his trade (axes, clubs, hammers, and the like) for self-defense and when called to the colors (which often proved quite effective!).
Also recall the words of the late Adm. Isoroku Yamamoto: (not the ‘sleeping giant’ quote, of which there is no documentation but does accurately describes the Admiral’s fears about Japan going to war with the USA)…that if they were to invade the US mainland, they would find an American (presumably civilians called into a militia) behind ‘every blade of grass’. It was this difficulty that led to his infamous comment about marching the entire breadth of the country and dictating terms of peace in the White House (e.g., he was saying it was a pipe dream, Americans when they learned of the quote thought it was a jingoistic boast). Or, as the fictional Prof. Groteschele (Walter Matthau) postulates in “Fail-Safe”, when urging that the Air Force not attempt to recall the errant ‘Vindicator’ supersonic bombers (using B-58 Hustler footage), “How far would the Nazis have gotten if every Jew they’d confronted had a gun?” (pointing the irony of gun controls laws passed by the Weimar regime, then (mis)used by the Nazis to overcome their victims). Firearms truly are the ‘great equalizer’, especially for women and the aged, to resist individual tyranny (e.g. crime) or collective tyranny, which we must not kid ourselves as to the possibility even in this country.
The ‘economics’ of hunting are like that of gardening…it seldom proves truly cost-effective, but the purpose is both enjoyment (hobby) and the development/retention of skills.
Nephi would assuredly arm himself in today’s society with whatever firepower he felt necessary, but as to whether he’d be NRA or GOoA (they bicker with each other and it’s a hoot to watch the fur fly), that would depend on whether he felt said association was further his purposes to serve the Lord. Like other political affiliations, it’s a matter of individual choice. You can’t presuppose either way what Nephi or the Savior Himself would “do”. I say if Jesus were a Major League pitcher he’d pitch inside and give a batter crowding the plate a little “chin music”. Part of the game, not for sissies.
I don’t know why Nephi seems to stop to admire the sword (perhaps to rationalize why he kept it), but if you’re coming upon someone dangerous, the first things you’d do is disarm them. Even if the person appears to be incapacitated, the last thing you want is a surprise weapon in your gut (sword or gun).
I’m not sure how valid the question of the NRA is, as there’s quite a bit of difference between bladed implements and guns. The making of steel (even if it wasn’t the same thing we call steel now) would have been highly useful at that time, creating items used for everything; household tasks, farming, hunting, protection, sport. Guns have much fewer uses.
I think one of the difficulties we have in the US with guns is the resistance to even talking about them. We don’t even track suicides or accidental shootings by guns, and we’re not likely to, as anything even related to guns is seen as an attempt to take them away.
For me and my house, not even one. It trebles the chance of suicide. We don’t need the extra help.
” wow, cool sword.”
—Nephi
#15 – in Star Trek: TOS, episode “Day of the Dove”, when the entity has trapped most of the Enterprise crew and effectively released the Klingons from captivity, and transformed all the ranged weapons (e.g. phasers) into melee weapons (mostly swords), Scotty goes down into the armory, hoping to recover phasers but finding an assort of fine collectible swords, then gets all enamored of a Claymore. It’s an understandable reaction, but as pointed out, you don’t want to be caught off guard if your adversary might have a backup weapon.
I don’t have the “Mask”, so I can’t paint a toilet flush handle in case the bad guy pulls a knife in desperation…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emcXtQInklU
Protect your right to keep and bear a paintbrush and palette!
” Finally there are far more deadly (in terms of loves lost) issues to regulate if the goal is to improve safety and save lives”
It has more to do with dealing with people with mental health issues and providing real help to them. Like Martin Bryant. I read his story when it came out. He went from building to building killing people;then down to a toll booth, etc. If anyone would have been armed, not so many people would have been killed. The cops were a long ways from this location. If there ever was a perfect argument to arm citizens, this is the shooting to reference. 35 people would not have died if Australian citizens were armed.
It is not about guns,it is about treating mental health. Mass murders have taken place with knives and more recently a crazy person taking control of a plane and flying into the french alps.
I sincerely hope that he would. Education and familiarity is never a bad thing.
Regardless of your feelings about their lobbying activities, NRA members put in thousands upon thousands of hours every year in classroom and hands-on firearms safety and proficiency education, for youth and adults. The excellent safety record of hunting and shooting sports in the United States is due in very large part to the members and programs of the National Rifle Association.
Ken wrote: “It is not about guns, it is about treating mental health.” Unfortunately sometimes the best ‘treatment’ is to perform an emergency “Brain-Ectomy”, via a magazine of .45 ACP (or .40 S&W, or 9mm Parabellum) rounds squarely between the eyes. In that lamentable situation, the idea is to keep the cadaver count to ONE.
Though other factors (socio-economics, “opportunity”, etc.) do contribute to gun-related crime, there is consistent correlation between the severity or laxity of gun laws in the several United States and the rates of crimes committed with firearms…e.g, the more readily a law-abiding citizen can be ‘packing’, the less likelihood there is of being assaulted/raped/robbed/murdered with a gun. As Icon pointed out, though, even the best of controls haven’t been able to stop a deranged pilot and or hijacker(s) from turning an airliner into a weapon of mass destruction and/or murder. Or maybe we should outlaw a kid’s chemistry set, on the ground he might go nutso and devise a way to manufacture and set off some Sarin nerve gas (as happened in Tokyo 20 years ago).
Ken,
I agree mental illness and the lethality of guns can be a problem but just as “guns don’t kill people, people do”, mental illness as a general category doesn’t kill others only a few of them do, just as only a few sane people kill others using guns too. Are all mass murders are crazy? If so what does that say about drone pilots? So let’s not do a sloppy job of shifting the blame to some minority. Autos kill far more whether their drivers are crazy or sane.
#20 – In “Goldfinger” (1964), when 007 points out to the villain that ‘Operation Grand Slam’ could kill as many as 60,000 people (including 41,000 soldiers at Fort Knox), Goldfinger retorts, “American motorists kill THAT number every two years”.
We react in understandable horror at wanton mayhem that takes out a slew of people but shrug at the body count thanks to complacency, inexperience, and often reckless disregard for the consequences that the modern automobile, some 4000 lbs of steel, aluminum, glass, rubber, plastics, and fabrics, carrying some ten to twenty gallons of gasoline with the potential energy of some 150 to 300 sticks of dynamite, can wreak when misguided. Simply because it occurs incrementally.
“Are all mass murders are crazy”
Yes
So, what does that say about drone pilots?
They are not murders
No Nephi wouldn’t have joined the NRA, he was likely under the age of 18 at the time of the Laban incident.
I think he would have found this whole debate ridiculous though. He and his family did not go into the wilderness unarmed though. It would have been a much more dangerous place than modern Australia, UK or the US. There would have been a lot of maurading bandits out there.
Something you may not be aware of. Simply showing a would be criminal a firearm has stopped many a crime. There is just something about staring down the barrel of a Glock that says, “Stop and get the he** out of here!”
I heard a story in the news some time ago. A 12 year old girl was home alone. I man broke into her house. Her mother directed her to get the homes loaded gun. She hid in a closet, but he came after her–until he got shot. Isn’t it wonderful that a 12 year old girl could defend herself against a grown man? If you had your way, this girl would have been raped and or worse.
“God made man. Samuel Colt made them equal.”
War has not been declared, a trial has not taken place but the target and his family are seen entering the car that the drone operator releases a missile to. destroy. They are assassins of the state and mass murder has just taken place.
The mass murders that go on killing sprees in today’s culture are crazy or on prescription drugs that make them crazy.
But historically, that hasn’t been the case. Were Joshua, David, and other scripture heroes crazy? ‘Cuz some of the stuff they did sounds like mass murder to me. Hitler, Eichmann, Stalin, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot may have been crazy, but if so they were crazy like a fox. “Ruthless” may be a better word.
“They are assassins of the state and mass murder has just taken place.”
Are you suggesting Obama and other world leaders, who orders these drone strikes, are mass murderer? What about Truman?
Well, Truman is a poor example because WWII was declared. Yes I’d say some world leaders are guilty of mass murder but I’m careful what I call Obama because he orders drone strikes!
“Simply showing a would be criminal a firearm has stopped many a crime. There is just something about staring down the barrel of a Glock that says, “Stop and get the he** out of here!”
I know this is the tried and true narrative of gun lovers. But, the fact is, more people are killed by guns in the home than crimes prevented by exponential numbers. Easy access to guns is one of the top killers in the country.
Hmmm…so the guy that orders it is not a mass murderer, but the guy working the controls is?
Hmmm…is that what I said? No.
Nephi would be in psychiatric prison for killing a guy because the voices in his head told him to.
” Easy access to guns is one of the top killers in the country.”
Baloney.
Where is your proof?
“Hmmm…is that what I said? No.”
Your question implied drone operators were mass murders; and your squishy answer about Obama suggest he is not!
My squishy answer suggests that I don’t want to be having this conversation with the Secret Service.
Fair enough
#30 – Jeff, I believe that you are DEAD wrong (e.g., if I rely on your views with regards to having a gun in mine home, I’ll more likely end up dead). Are you asserting that far more people die of being shot by the criminal with their own weapon, or it discharging accidentally, or a domestic violence situation spiraling downwards into a murder and/or suicide tragedy? These are fortunately RARE (though utterly notorious, hence why they’re on the national news, and not rare enough)incidents. Please cite references to back up your assertion(s).
The only situation which MIGHT contribute tragic numbers is one of ‘straight-up’ suicide with a firearm (usually a pistol, it’s actually quite rare that someone ‘eats his rifle’ like Pvt. ‘Gomer Pyle’ Lawrence did in Full Metal Jacket), and one can only speculate whether suicide might have been attempted had a firearm not been available. This compared to how many confrontations are faced down by the would-be victim brandishing a firearm. Again, that scenario is more anecdotal (typically no impartial witnesses), but evidence is that far more injuries/deaths are prevented by the would-be victim having a credible means of defense.
By the same argument, one might severely restrict ownership and operation of private automobiles, considering the huge costs in law enforcement, hospitalization, insurance, and unneeded repairs, all b/c people don’t have the maturity or good judgment to keep their vehicle in proper order and/or drive properly. That’s why those in the industry refer to ‘collisions’ and not ‘accidents’, emphasizing PREVENTABILITY. Since considerably more people die or are injured from misuse of automobiles than firearms, let alone the overall ‘costs’ to society far dwarf same, it’d make more sense to severely restrict or ban outright private operation of automobiles. And the ownership and bearing of firearms is a CONSTITUTIONAL right, not a ‘privilege’ as most states assert that driving an automobile is.
Gun culture is definitely alive and well in Utah. And part of our shared Church history if you consider the contributions of John Browning. Many gun-owning LDS members use quasi-doctrine and church teachings to justify their attitudes (i.e. Cliven Bundy and his ilk). This part of our culture does not translate well to members in Australia or UK, so instead we are assaulting them with handcarts.
Also, I wish that the next time the Brethren promote provident living, they specifically state that family food storage should NOT include vast stockpiles of assault rifles and ammunition.
#39 – They have numerous times. The Brethren give counsel meant for the WORLD, and they are quite aware that the laws and/or customs in many other lands where the Church operates are quite different than the USA.
Interesting enough, the Ed Decker and his ilk that promulgated the “God Makers” some 30+ years ago the specific allegation that LDS members were counseled by the Brethren to ‘arm up’ and stockpile firearms and ammo. One of their patently false assertions about LDS culture and teachings.
Appreciate the anecdote about John Browning. You haven’t truly ‘lived’ until you’ve gotten to handle a “Ma Deuce”. If there’s anyone that understood firearms, it was Brother Browning.
Well this is a very interesting line of thought. I have never considered gun ownership or gun rights as they exist here in the USA to be a gospel topic.
My answer is that Nephi would have followed in his father’s footsteps, whatever they were. And he likely would have taken guns instead of a defective steel bow into the wilderness.
One of the great appeal of weapons is just what Nephi sensed when he first drew the sword. They are beautiful.
Weapons are beautiful because they are powerful. When we take one in our hands we suddenly find ourselves bestowed with an awesome sense of responsibility. Life and death are in our hands. Whether we love them or hate them, we are reacting to archetypal instincts lying deep within each one of us. We are all warriors, either embracing our inner warrior, or repressing it.
I love guns because I love that feeling of power. I think that is why most other people love guns. They say it is about protection, hunting, freedom, blah, blah, blah. But the real reason is all about power.
“Where is your proof?”
http://guns.periscopic.com/?year=2013
One of the top non-disease killers.
And to further Nate’s thought, power corrupts.
“I love guns because I love that feeling of power.”
I can relate to this. I held a 357 in my hand for the one and only time and I could feel the power emanating from that thing.
It kind of scared me and I was not comfortable with that feeling.
OTOH, the guy who we were visiting said something like “I could take this gun over to that bed, lay down and shoot myself in the head, but I wouldn’t want my kids to see my blood and brains all over the walls.”
That may also have had something to do with it.
Jeff if you don’t want to belive that firearms don’t have a preventative effect against crime you can believe if you want to. However, you may wish to imagine that you have just invaded a home (armed or unarmed) with the intent to commit a crime. In the dark you hear a click-click of someone loading a bullet into the chamber of a firearm. (This click-click translates into any language, by the way.) Would you want to continue commiting your crime because “Hey I can commander his /her weapon” or would you wet/and/or soil your pants and run?
Also would you be more or less likely to commit a crime in front of an unarmed cop or civilian or an armed one? (All this is assuming your are mental aware.)
One more thing. What is the difference between a firearm and other potential weapons such as a rope, explosives, a bow and arrow, a rock, a bat, human hands or a knife? The only difference I see is that you can realisticly deamonize and ban one of those. A firearm is merely a tool in the end.
Personally a fight with a gun seems more civilzed than a switch blade. Oh well, nothing I say will be convincing to you gun control folks.
rk,
You drastically contradict yourself in #46, and 47.
When I was 11, my dad taught me to shoot a rifle. He told me, “It’s got a kick to it.” I thought he meant it was fun, but no, he meant it was very powerful, and it knocked me to the ground when I pulled the trigger. Yes, it’s powerful. Personally, I think that’s the problem with it. If you want to kill a person, you should have to use your bare hands. If you want to kill a rabbit, you should have to be clever enough to trap it.
When the guy shot up the movie theater in Colorado, I was just returning to Singapore from a business trip in the US. My driver called on me to answer for America’s lax gun laws when these types of incidents kept occurring. In Singapore, you can own a gun but only at a gun club which is where it is stored. You can get it and shoot it in the ranges at the club. Nobody has a carry permit.
Personally, I think we should have much stricter regulations, particularly for handguns. I would make a few changes:
– no semi-automatic or automatic guns in the hands of private citizens period. Pay people to turn in these guns.
– any crime committed with a gun registered to you is an automatic felony charge to the person who let the gun be accessed and used in a crime. Negligent homocide or manslaughter if it’s a murder.
– Provide incentives to turn in or register any unregistered guns and stiff fines with mandatory jail time for having a gun that is not registered. There are a ridiculous number of unregistered guns in this country.
I will never have a firearm in my family’s home or possession. Statistics show my family is safer without it.
Do I think Nephi would support weapons safety classes? Yes. Do I think he would limit all attempts at gun control? No.
Rexburg recently had a really at the court house to decry all gun laws; stating that there should be no training classes, licensure, or background checks…. Nothing. Also most Rexbyrgians consider ammo part of their food storage.
I lean australian but live in gun country (shrug). There is a hilarious comedy bit from an Australian convention on you tube going around. Except for the fbombs I think you’d like it.
Pakistan court says former CIA station chief will face charges over drone strike
The former head of the CIA in Pakistan should be tried for murder and waging war against the country, a high court judge ruled on Tuesday.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/07/former-cia-station-chief-pakistan-murder-charges-drone-strike
I think the question of Laban’s NRA membership is much more interesting. He certainly thought his weapon and the weapons of his soldiers would protect himself and his property from thieves, but in the end an unarmed thief beheads him with his personal weapon.
Hawkgrrrl, “If you want to kill a person, you should have to use your bare hands.”
This reminds me of something I heard was considered during the cold war. The pentagon was concerned of the power the president have to start a nuclear war, to “push the button” as they say. They wanted to make it as hard as possible for the president to push the button.
So they suggested printing the codes to the nuclear launch pads on a device that would be implanted in a certain person’s heart. This person would always be with the President, and if the President needed to get the codes, he would have to stab this person in the heart and personally remove them in order to get them.
The more dangerous a weapon, the harder it should be to use.
Nate: That’s fascinating. I’ve never heard that, but I actually think it’s a great idea. It’s far too easy to kill “in theory,” much harder to deal with the messy realities of it.
Would Nephi be a member of the NRA? No. Nephi was not armed. A weapon was provided for him by the Lord at the last minute. Otherwise he entered enemy territory without a sword. I’m more of a “bury your weapons of war” person.
“What is the difference between a firearm and other potential weapons such as a rope, explosives, a bow and arrow, a rock, a bat, human hands or a knife? The only difference I see is that you can realisticly deamonize and ban one of those.”
As well as being generally bizarre, this statement is utterly indefensible.
@#56: I believe the point was that humans have found ways to kill each other for thousands of years before the invention of firearms, and even with firearms widely available, still kill each other quite successfully with fists, knives, ropes, etc. So banning guns–even if the ban could be implemented effectively–still would not prevent murder. So why ban guns instead of automobiles, doctors, prescription medications, knives, and the other “instruments of death” that kill far more people annually than guns? Because the public sees automobiles, doctors, meds, etc. as so beneficial that the good far outweighs the downside risk. I, among several others on this thread, believe the good of private firearm possession far outweighs the downside risk. Obviously, others disagree, but there’s no reason to be rude about it.
“Live by the sword, die by the sword.” That philosophy eventually caught up to Laban, and occasionally catches up with current Mormons, too, like the Campos/Serbeck neighborhood watch confrontation that led to a tragic accident a few years back because deadly weapons were brandished carelessly.
I don’t think I was being rude at all. I think the statement in question is patently absurd, for reasons that don’t come anywhere near the broader issue of whether private ownership of firearms is good or bad. Even if I believed passionately in the virtues of gun ownership, I would scratch my head at a comment that said there is no difference between a gun and a human hand. If one uses hyperbole to make one’s point, I think it’s fair to call shenanigans.
I think the urban/rural distinction is important. In rural communities guns are still considered tools. Banning guns is as ridiculous as banning shovels. There is very little use for guns in cities other than killing people (even in self-defense). Urban folk tend to support gun control.
My experience is that rural Utahns are often angry at the federal government because it has a large presence in their lives. Most of the land in Utah (and the Intermountain West for that matter) is owned by the federal government and they have a lot of rules governing the use of that land that makes agricultural life even more difficult than it already is. The Mormon paranoia of the 1800s that the government is “out to get them” is constantly reinforced any time there is a conflict between rural residents and the federal government (see Cliven Bundy).
The older emphasis on food storage and prepping for doomsday scenarios also supports paranoia. When your theology says that human governments will all eventually fall leaving people to fend for themselves during a time of catyclysmic destruction, you do not instill much trust in FEMA. At a fifth Sunday lesson on emergency preparedness a year ago in our new ward stockpiling ammo and firearms was encouraged. The paranoia is still firmly entrenched.
According to the CHI it is inappropriate for any member besides law enforcement to carry a weapon into a church building. I would be very surprised to see that enforced in gun country.
Nephi grew up in an politically volatile climate and was under pretty much a constant threat of annihilation. It’s hard to believe anyone would be against the right to bear arms in that scenario.
Thanks for all your responses. For the most part, they confirmed what I had suspected…the culture you are brought up in plays a far greater role than religious principles in this particular argument. The USA crew are the ones speaking about intruders, governments etc (with some notable exception) and those outside the USA can’t quite understand it.
As a matter of interest as some have raised it, the rural situation is an interesting one…here in Australia lots of farmers own guns and whilst the use of firearms in the commission of offences is low in those areas, the numbers of suicides by firearm is significantly higher there than the city…accessibility….
Another inadvertent tribute to the late Bro. Browning came from “Bro” Hermann Goering (at least for awhile, as he had a proxy baptism performed on his behalf well after he took his own life, cheating the hangman at Nuremburg, MSgt Woods).
“When I heard the word “culture”, I reach for my Browning” (automatic pistol, chambered in 9mm Parabellum)
I learned in a religion class at Ricks College ( BYU-I) that when Muslims learn of Nephi’s commandment to kill Laban, they have a hard time believing it because it took so long for Nephi to do it. Gun ownership/control is very much a culture issue. Many gun owners desire that feeling of power or control that having a gun gives. I own some guns, I enjoy target/ sport shooting. I also have an autisic son who’s desires for gun ownership and driving scare me to death. Nephi’s appears to be a very practical man, he would reject the extremes of both the gun control and the gun ownership groups.
#62 – there’s a difference between appreciating the beautiful workmanship and fine handling in a well-designed and masterly crafted weapon, versus wanting to use the ammo to tear apart and blast into smithereens human flesh, blood, and bone. Handling a “Ma Deuce” (.50 cal Browning MG) is an awesome feeling, because of the utter hitting power of the rounds, even though there’s more anti-‘material’ (‘soft-skinned’ ground vehicles and aircraft). Eighty years old, and STILL the champ!
Like the Nephites under Capt. (or would that be abbreviated Cpt. or CPT?) Moroni, you take human life if you HAVE to (war acting under lawful orders, law enforcement, or legitimate self-defense), not b/c you WANT to. No one with even a modicum of the Light of Christ WANTS to kill or even injure one of his brothers in the Lord.
Interesting news article I saw today…
“[Our research] underwent peer review and was thought to be very solid and worthwhile research,” says Dr. Fred Rivara, who was part of the team that researched gun violence. “The CDC stood by our research — they had funded it and they stood by it. Unfortunately, it raised the attention of the National Rifle Association, who then worked with pro-gun members of Congress to essentially stop funding firearm research.”
Rivara, a professor of pediatrics and epidemiology at the University of Washington at Seattle Children’s Hospital, discovered that having a gun in the home is associated with a threefold increase in the risk of a homicide.
“The most common reason that people have a gun is because they have it for home protection,” he says. “Unfortunately, the data indicates that having a gun is associated with both an increased risk of homicide, but even more importantly, an increased risk of suicide. We know that, for example, if there’s a gun in the home, the risk of suicide among adolescents and young adults increases tenfold.”
http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-04-12/gun-owners-face-much-higher-murder-risks-researchers-said-then-nra-silenced-them
#64 – I would wonder what the ‘stats’ would be for households that have someone who is a ‘client’ of the criminal justice system versus incidents of either tragic accidents or isolated murder/suicide incidents (mostly suicide) of people w/o a criminal history. I would hazard a guess that the actual death rates in the former category are FAR higher than the latter (no pun intended).
Those who advocate abrogation of the Second Amendment in the US seem to infer some manner of epidemic of firearm-related violence among people w/o a criminal history. I would assert that the actual numbers pale in comparison to either motor vehicle accidents (which the fictional Auric Goldfinger said would kill as many in two years, circa 1964, as his ‘atomic device’) or household fires. Yet I see no great outcry to severely restrict private automobile ownership nor sales of matches, lighters, lighter fluid, and related flammable household items, even though greater care and vigilance would likely save lives, especially of innocent children! No, when you see ‘studies’ mentioned about the keeping of firearms as a public health ‘menace’, know that it’s a disingenuous ‘red herring’ that has neither legal or scientific basis.
“According to the CHI it is inappropriate for any member besides law enforcement to carry a weapon into a church building. I would be very surprised to see that enforced in gun country”
The two best states in the United States for gun rights are Utah and Vermont in that order with Idaho being a close third.
In Utah, with a conceal carry permit, you can carry a gun almost anywhere. Exceptions include mental health facilities, courthouses, places the federal government restricts, private residences that restrict it and churches. However, the church must register with the state. When I took my last firearm class a year ago the only church that had registered with the State of Utah is the LDS church.
Therefore, I doubt many LDS gun advocates would carry a gun to church as the penalty is quit severe. In contrast, it is legal to carry a gun to any church in Idaho.
#66 – I have a C&C permit (when the City of Isleton, CA, was handing them out to Sac County residents in a controversial but quite legal “shall issue” mode back in the ’90s and have maintained it, else getting one would’ve been a real ‘bear’ in the state with the “Bear Flag”). I’ve never considered bringing any firearms into an LDS facility, period, nor at an LDS function when out-of-doors. I have trusted that self-defense with deadly force would not likely be required. I trust the Lord knows what he’s doing with regard to packing heat on His property.
California generally requires that unless you’re a peace officer or federal marshal, or if you have the C&C permit for purposes of performing a hazardous job (bail agent, collect agent, tow truck driver, etc…) and are in the actual performance of same, you generally must not bring your hardware into any establishment that serves alcohol. A bit overkill, I never heard of being in danger of a shootout at Marie Callendar’s b/c they serve Sam Adam’s or E&J Gallo. Places like the “Velvet Hammer” and any “Dew Drop Inn” kinda ruined it for everyone.
In states that actually observe the Second Amendment (unlike the “People’s Republic of Cali(porn)ia”), a private establishment may post rules forbidding bringing firearms in. I recall the first time I visited “Arid-Zona” and went to get some groceries at a local supermarket (Smith’s), and saw a ‘cowboy’-type older gentleman (who had gotten out of a pickup with a “Discover America: Read the Book of Mormon” sticker) go directly to the customer service counter at the front of the store and check in his six-shooters! A pair of what appeared to be single-action Colts with white polished grips, either ivory or bone (“Only a pimp from a cheap ‘Nawlins cathouse would carry pistols with pearl grips, according to the late Gen. George Patton). If I’d had a digital camera at the time, but this was the Eighties…
In spite of my stridency in the Second Amendment and INALIENABLE rights to self-defense, I avoid situations where I would feel a strong need to ‘pack’. Clear wits, situational awareness, and sound judgment tend to do far better than available firepower and proficiency in wielding same. Ergo, I don’t ‘fight in a basement’.