Today and tomorrow the case brought by Gareth Lee, a volunteer with the Queer Space collective, supported by the Equality Commission of Northern Ireland against Asher’s Bakery supported by The Christian Institute is to be heard in court. So far as I can tell, this particular cake differs from similar cases in the US in that the cake is not a wedding cake, but, ordered from the bakery last May, was intended as a gift to the first gay mayor in Northern Ireland, and was to bear the message “support gay marriage”. The intended recipient of the cake has himself said he would prefer the case go to mediation rather than the courts, and that he didn’t want to see the religious pitted against LGBT people.
This week, BBC radio 4 broadcast an interesting programme “The ‘Gay Cake’ Affair”, presented by William Crawley, looking that case specifically, and the broader Northern Ireland context. If available, I would recommend listening to the programme. Northern Ireland is a predominantly Christian country, and possibly as a result of decades of sectarian division, there appears to be a stronger protestant or catholic identity amongst those living there, and more particularly in politics. Columnist Alex Kane described the nation as two different Northern Irelands: one that is still fighting old battles; the other, which would appear to have opted out of the political process, simply wants to get on with life and is happy to live and let live.
The argument put forward by the Bakery is that they
“declined the order because it carried a message that conflicts with Biblical beliefs that marriage is given from God and is between a man and a woman. We didn’t confront this customer, not did we question his sexuality. We simply exercised our right not to use creative skills to promote a cause with which we fundamentally disagree.” Daniel McArthur, General Manager, Asher’s Baking Company
The interesting results of a public poll on the case can be seen here. There would appear to be greater public support for refusing a service in this case than for non-creative services such as hotels, restaurants or B&B accommodation, and it appears to be the only scenario surveyed where the majority (56%), deemed the refusal of service to be acceptable.
There are a few points brought out by the programme that I wanted to highlight. On the one hand was the view that it perhaps ought to be recognised that societal change has come a long way very quickly, and uncomfortably so for the conservative element of the population. It wasn’t until 1982 that homosexual acts were decriminalised in Northern Ireland. There are now 3 gay or lesbian councillors on Belfast City Council. That said, violence towards LGBT people in Northern Ireland is a problem. There is some appreciation for the feelings of some Christians that they are being marginalised because of their beliefs, but it has been suggested that evidence needs to be collected to support that. There is some feeling that these fears are unfounded, given that Christians are predominantly running the country, and that they are just unused to having to make accommodations for those with differing views, and have experienced nothing like the levels of oppression together with consequent negative mental health outcomes of those in the LGBT community. Gavin Boyd from the Rainbow Project remarked:
“I know hundreds of people that have left Northern Ireland because they didn’t feel this was a place where they could feel safe, where they could feel welcome. And they didn’t know if they would be able to find a job where they could feel comfortable working here, where they were worried whether they would be able to form a family here, where they were worried who they would vote for here. So I totally understand why many people see Northern Ireland as a deeply homophobic place.”
On the one hand business owners are beginning to fear that they could be taken to court over matters of conscience, and that
“when you have an arm of the law pursuing a hostile legal action like this against a Christian family then … Christians are entitled to feel there is something wrong … are entitled to feel that they’re being treated wrongly.” Simon Calvert, The Christian Institute
On the other hand, as Caitríona Ruane (Sinn Féin MLA) put it:
“Do we want a situation where gay and lesbian people are worried sick every time they go into a shop, or every time they go to a hotel, or every time they book a holiday?”
There were calls for greater concentration on, and tolerance for diversity, and accommodating difference, over language of equality.
Often throughout the programme the case seemed to be discussed in terms of Christians v. LGBT. However, I enjoyed Alex Kane’s observation that
“I know Christian’s who have absolutely no hang up at all with gay marriage and other so-called moral dilemmas and I just think that what we’re seeing and what we will see soon is an internal battle within some of the Christian churches. We’ve already seen it in the Church of Ireland, where there’s been some dispute. We’ve seen in some of the Presbyterian congregations who’ve had the debate quietly, and there’s been no agreement there either. And I just think you are going to end up with a situation … they end up fighting with themselves, and the rest of the world has moved on.”
In any case, Northern Ireland was described as trailing both the rest of the United Kingdom, and the Republic of Ireland with respect to LGBT rights.
- What parallels and differences do you see between Northern Ireland and Utah, if any?
- What parallels and differences do you see with the handling of similar cases in the US?
- What do you make of the survey results?
- What do you make of Alex Kane’s observation?
Discuss.
Wheat & Tares 
I did not know Bert and Ernie were gay 😉
This case seems somewhat like the case of Azucar Bakery in Denver, CO, here in the US in that the issue is how the cake is decorated, i.e., with an explicit message. This differs from the gay wedding cake cases in the US which tend not to be about how to decorate the cake (same sex cake toppers notwithstanding), but rather about not providing the same type of cake and decorations the baker provides to straight couples.
I think Alex Kane’s quote gets to something that bothers me about framing these issues as Christians vs. gays. There are gay Christians and straight Christian allies of gays that are in favor of anti-discrimination laws. There are gay and straight Libertarians who oppose virtually all civil rights and anti-discrimination laws. These aren’t straight-forward (forgive the pun) issues.
#1 – I doubt the creators of Sesame Street INTENDED that Bert and Ernie be perceived as gay, but they’ve acquired that cachet, for good or evil:
I’ve no idea how Irish law treat ‘gay rights’ but hopefully in between all those pints o’ the dark (Guinness) and Catholicism they utilize common sense and actually respect private property and freedom of (dis)association.
Amazing how those that scream loudest for ‘tolerance’ and ‘choice’ prove to be the most INTOLERANT and restrictive of choices when it doesn’t go their way.
“I’ve no idea how Irish law treat ‘gay rights’ but hopefully in between all those pints o’ the dark (Guinness) and Catholicism they utilize common sense and actually respect private property and freedom of (dis)association.
Amazing how those that scream loudest for ‘tolerance’ and ‘choice’ prove to be the most INTOLERANT and restrictive of choices when it doesn’t go their way.”
Did you really mean to preface a diatribe on intolerance with a generalize slur on the Irish national and/or religious character?
#4 – just going along with common humor about the Irish whether in the 26 counties South (Eire) or the six North (Derry or Ulster, depending on whether you sport green or orange on St. Patrick’s Day). And though the article is about Northern Ireland, which is still (by narrow popular choice) part of the UK, the Belfast Agreement of 1998 (which has largely and thankfully ended the “Troubles”) is intended to promote to the greatest extent possible both local rule AND conformity with Irish culture and agreement, where local sentiment dictates, their fellow Irish in the Republic. So for a social issue like this one, it’d be treated as a local matter.
You’ll notice I don’t treat the Irish development and consumption of the “dark” (Stout, of which Guinness is but one of the brands originating in Eire – Guinness itself having moved its HQ to London in 1932) as a BAD THING. And the WHO ranks Ireland 23rd in pure alcohol consumption (estimated content based on overall consumption figures for beers, wines, and spirits), which means that though they do like their drink, I wouldn’t expect this when landing at ‘Aerfort Bhaile Átha Cliathlanding’ (Dublin) or Belfast International:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qzZr9OLKVE
Suppose I live in Washington state where marihuana use is legal. Customer brings me a bag of marihuana and asks me to bake a cake, using the marihuana as part of the ingredients. Do I have to do it? I own a restaurant. Do I have to serve alcohol and open on Sundays? Maybe the phrase “essential services” needs to be defined.
IDIAT – “Suppose I live in Washington state where marihuana use is legal. Customer brings me a bag of marihuana and asks me to bake a cake, using the marihuana as part of the ingredients. Do I have to do it?”
Do you offer marijuana cakes to any of your customers? If you do, you must offer them to any customers subject to the laws regarding distribution of marijuana. If you don’t, then you do not need to bake the cake. For example, if you offer marijuana cakes to women suffering from breast cancer, then you cannot refuse men suffering from prostate cancer.
“I own a restaurant. Do I have to serve alcohol and open on Sundays?”
Do you serve alcohol to some of your customers? If so, then you must offer alcohol to any customers subject to the laws regarding distribution of alcohol. For example, you can’t choose to refuse alcohol to Mormons.
Do you open on Sundays for some of your customers? If so, then you must open on Sundays for any customers. For example, you can’t choose to open on Sundays only for Jewish customers who observe the Sabbath on Saturday and exclude Christians.
If you don’t want to serve alcohol in your restaurant don’t get a liquor license.
If marijuana is legal in the state you operate in, why would anyone want to waste it by baking it into a cake?
Though I’ve already been prejudicially declared “intolerant” (see comment #3), I’m going to surprise you all by saying that I do not believe this Irish baker should be penalized in any way whatsoever for declining this particular cake order. Producing merchandise which explicitly promotes a message in direct contradiction with one’s religious beliefs. This is quite distinct from baking a wedding cake which just happens to be intended for a same sex couple.
The baker who prepares a wedding cake does not “endorse” or “support” the wedding involved, any more than the contractors who built the building in which that wedding is later held “endorsed” or “supported” it. We could go on and on with the list of individuals whose production eventually goes into a particular wedding celebration, but they create a product—not the event where their product is used.
In this Irish case, it’s not about an event. Instead, it’s a case of expecting this baker to produce an explicit message which contradicts his religious views. That goes way beyond just baking the cake, and nobody should expect it of him.
Now, I’m sure that some nutty zealots will insist there is absolutely no difference, and that this Irish baker should be burned at the stake. I’m also sure that some nutty zealots will insist that an ordinary wedding cake is just as explicit as this “Support Gay Marriage” cake. All are welcome to their opinions. There are more “grey” areas in all of this than some would like to admit.
Ken, the image pictured on the cake, with Bert and Ernie has been used by Queer Space on sandwich boards, so it seems to be something they’ve adopted at least.
AuntM, thanks for highlighting the Azucar Bakery case. I hadn’t come across that one. Interesting. So, in that case the message on the cake that was wanted was meant to be “God hates gays”. When it comes to specific messages, this is something that cuts in all directions, since theoretically a customer could ask for absolutely anything to be written on a cake, no matter how offensive or otherwise.
Douglas, the violence towards LGBT mentioned in the programme, was towards both property and person. So not much respect for private property on the part of those committing the violence.
alice, Douglas, Nick, so on comment #3 I read:
“Amazing how those that scream loudest for ‘tolerance’ and ‘choice’ prove to be the most INTOLERANT and restrictive of choices when it doesn’t go their way.”
initially as a comment on the requests of the Christian Institute for tolerance in the programme, but I can see I could have got that backwards. Perhaps I’m putting too much faith in Douglas fairly recent slight moderation of his expressed views on this subject in comments on other posts, so…
IDIAT, AuntM, alice
Aunt M, alice, thank you for your great responses to IDIAT. Exactly.
I’ll just add
IDIAT, are there really bakeries out there who allow customers to provide their own ingredients? Whatever those ingredients might be. That’s just a strange scenario to me. I would have thought bakeries would prefer to source their own ingredients, and have traceability, not least from a standpoint of public liability, and complications with insurance.
I don’t know anywhere that mandates businesses must be open during specific hours and on specific days (other than an emergency pharmacist). Seems to be that is something left to the business owner. Sometimes there are regulations on hours when a licensed business should not be operating, but no-one is forcing them to operate continually outside those hours.
There’s a Muslim restaurant in my city. They don’t sell alcohol, though they do allow customers to bring their own (and pay corkage). They don’t serve pork or beef dishes. I assume meat served is halal. Lots of lovely lamb and chicken dishes. No-one is forcing them, or campaigning to force them to serve pork or beef, or to sell alcohol.
Nick,
“In this Irish case, it’s not about an event. Instead, it’s a case of expecting this baker to produce an explicit message which contradicts his religious views. That goes way beyond just baking the cake, and nobody should expect it of him.”
Yes, I think that’s the way a lot of people see it, and the reason for the majority poll results in this case.
Updates on the case:
It looks like some of it might hinge on whether there could have been a breach of contract in initially accepting the order and payment, and then contacting the customer privately afterwards:
“Although she accepted the order initially, Mrs McArthur said: “In my heart, I knew I would not be able to put that (slogan) on the cake.” Asked why she accepted money for it and expressed no concern about it to Mr Lee at the time, she said she did not “want to embarrass him or have a confrontation in the bakery”. It was more than 48 hours later, after consultations with her family that Mrs McArthur told Mr Lee that the order could not be fulfilled. His money was returned.” (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-32085952)
I believe there’s two types of businesses here
1. there’s the burger joint where anybody who comes in must be served
2. then there are businesses like photography or a bakery is where you have to sit down and agree to do business or not
#11 – Hedgehog, IDK to what extent in both the UK and the Republic of Ireland (keeping in mind that the 1998 Belfast agreement gives great latitude for Northern Ireland to align its laws and regulations with the Republic even when contrary to the rest of the UK, though I wouldn’t describe it as complete ‘home rule’, and most parties are not entirely satisfied but don’t want a return to the ‘Troubles’) insofar as the debate over private property versus ‘civil rights’ (indeed, are there not differences in how the UK treats ‘civil rights’ versus the States?). Latent conservatism in Irish society might cause them to allow the baker or cake decorator to refuse the business of someone whose value (s)he doesn’t share, even if the same baker would run afoul of the authorities in England proper. I leave it to the UK contributors to comment with authority.
My concern over this type of issue is that individuals must be free to (dis)associate regardless of how popular culture might regard their decision. That’s the nice thing about a free society and free market (goes hand-in-hand). If a baker refuses to bake a cake for a gay marriage, someone with fill that market demand. On both sides of the pond do I perceive a ‘right’ to not be dissappointed.
I wonder what would happen if a Christian group wanted to meet in a gay bar and specifically preach against homosexuality in that bar? Must the owners let them stay?
Douglas, Northern Ireland has its own assembly, with elected representatives, that deals with a lot of things differently to England, Wales or Scotland. But I don’t know more detail than that, but their website gives you some idea about what they do (http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/).
Winifred #15, I think there are a lot of people who would have some sympathy with that view.
#17, I don’t know about the US, but in this country (https://www.gov.uk/alcohol-licensing)the licensee has the right to throw out, and indeed ban anyone who is a disruptive element from their premises. The licensee is responsible for maintaining order.
Further Update: The case has concluded and awaits a verdict. It was conducted with the utmost decorum and civility throughout. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-32122134)
Just saw this on Facebook and thought I’d share. Someone wrote “Jesus ate regularly with theives and whores, and your telling me it’s against your religion to bake a cake for a gay person?”
When the person received some pushback, she said “All I’m saying is that I believe that Jesus would make the damn cake.”
FTW!
Nice MH. The question in this case though is not who the cake was for, but the message or slogan on the cake. Who the customer was, was irrelevant, so the arguments went.
#20 – Ah, a WWJD postulation. Now, He was (or is still, I dunno if He’s gotta ShopSmith ‘up there’ to while away the time…) a CARPENTER. Would He fashion something out of wood for a gay couple? My guess would be that as work and gainful employment are quite honorable (the late Robin’s William’s Prof. Sean Maguire’s soliloquy on the ‘honor’ of work to Will Hunting comes to mind) He’d do His ‘darnednest’ to apply His carpentry skills as long as whatever article(s) requested didn’t dishonor Heavenly Father. Gay people need cabinets to store their dishes or chairs to sit on like anyone else.
The issue is the rightfulness of any Government to compel a private individual or business to perform services when they don’t want to, regardless of reason. Indeed, the Libertarian in me sez that not only is such compulsion slavery and/or theft, it is invasive of one’s privacy (ooh, that’s a BINGO…did I say it right?) to even cause said person(s) to state their reasons. I certainly respect the right of a bakery (or carpenter) to cater EXCLUSIVELY to the gay community (free market in action), provided (s)he and his customers are doing so entirely of their free will. Mehopes that the good folk in the twenty-six counties in the Republic and the six counties still under ‘occupation’ (IF you accept the IRA slant on the issue) are wiser than we Yanks. If so, perhaps we ought to hoist a pint o’ the Dark on occasion!
#8 – I take it you’ve never had ‘special’ brownies. If I had to go the medicinal route (methinks that’s it’s mostly hooey and a lame excuse to toke up, but some do genuinely benefit from it, and who is the ‘Gubmint’ to tell an adult(erer) how they ought to self-medicate?), that’s likely how I’d ingest the product.
Fellow Floridian Jim Stafford put it best about America’s favorite ‘herb’:
Douglas said: “Amazing how those that scream loudest for ‘tolerance’ and ‘choice’ prove to be the most INTOLERANT and restrictive of choices when it doesn’t go their way.”
I haven’t seen anyone screaming or being super intolerant.
I think that is a beautiful cake, though.
Update: Judge ruled in favour of the prosecution, that there had been discrimination:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-32791239
If the bakery had had a policy that they didn’t provide cakes with political or religious slogans or messages they would have been fine. But they would have been willing to provide a cake in support of traditional marriage, hence discrimination.
An analysis of the legal judgement can be found here: http://www.lawandreligionuk.com/2015/05/20/lee-v-ashers-baking-co-ltd-ors-an-analysis/