
When did you first hear about polygamy*, and what has your experience been with this topic? What attitudes have you observed?
Growing up in the church in here in Britain, non-members would raise the issue of polygamy, as in “Mormon, that’s the religion where the men can have lots of wives”. And we’d then have to explain that actually we didn’t do that any more. As a child I remember ward members getting up in testimony meeting and talking about experiences when they’d had to explain to their neighbours, that no their husband wasn’t away because he was visiting another wife, his trip was work related, there was no other wife. This happened to more than one member of the ward. In one case one of the children had heard the exchange, and was very upset at the idea that his father would have another wife, and it was a few days before the mother got to the bottom of the poor kid’s concerns and reassure him that this was not in fact the case. I wasn’t aware at the time that there were polygamous off-shoots in and around Utah, it wasn’t something that was mentioned.
The reason given for the practice of polygamy in the early church would be looking after the widows, and was often accompanied by the, normally paraphrased, Mark Twain quote:
“…the man that marries one of them has done an act of Christian charity which entitles him to the kindly applause of mankind, not their harsh censure – and the man that marries sixty of them has done a deed of open-handed generosity so sublime that the nations should stand uncovered in his presence and worship in silence.”
as though it had been a serious observation on his part. The leader associated with the practice was Brigham Young. His home was portrayed as one big happy family, with the kid’s having all those “aunts” to go to. It was terribly sad that families had to be split up and the men imprisoned, on account of persecution. And Wilford Woodruff had put an end to it (as per Official Declaration 1**), we were told. That was pretty much it.
As an older child I became aware that if a man’s wife died, he could marry again, and be sealed in the temple, and so finish up with more than one wife after this life was over. Because would it be fair to make him choose? And my mother had said, that if she died, she wanted my father to marry again, because she didn’t want him to be lonely. Of course I would not have wanted my mother to die anyway, but this made me think about not wanting her to die rather more than I would have done otherwise. As I grew older I’d also hold at arms length in my mind the possibility that I too, were I to marry, might die before my husband, and that wasn’t something I wanted to think about. It seemed to be commonly believed amongst members that it didn’t work the other way however, for women marrying another husband. This concerned me somewhat growing up, especially as my family had a real life example, in shape of my aunt, of a woman whose first husband had died tragically young, who had married again, and had children with both husbands. It seemed she would be expected to choose. Throughout my life my aunt has been an inactive member of the church, her children were baptised, but are also inactive. I have often wondered to what extent our teachings on eternal families coupled with sealing policies, and the oft-spouted doctrine/folklore surrounding those policies contributed to their inactivity.
When I mentioned polygamy growing up, my mother sometimes said she wouldn’t have minded another wife helping around the house. Now she is older, and we are all grown, she has said that when we were young she used to think that sometimes, but actually, no. Not now.
I’m not sure polygamy got a mention at all, my final year of seminary, the Doctrine & Covenants year. It was the one year I had to take early morning. The teacher was a young, non-academic, just-returned-from-a-mission, sister. Very nice, but had nothing to add to the supplied lesson material. I was far from my best that time in the morning, and had to leave before the class finished every day anyway.
Later, as a student in London, I was loaned a copy of Mormon Enigma, and for the first time encountered descriptions of Joseph Smith’s polygamy. I didn’t know what to make of the information, knew nothing about the authors. Something else parked at arms length in my mind. I could never see Joseph Smith in quite the same way again, and my sympathies were with Emma. But it wasn’t something I ever discussed in depth with anyone.
Fast forward a few years, as a young married in a ward, where members seemed to remarkably blasé about polygamy in general church conversation. I visit taught one sister who’d been divorced. The children were, at that time, with her husband (to whom she was still sealed), and who had married again. She spoke about them all sitting together on the pew at church like a polygamous family, when she visited. The wife in an older couple died. My husband and I had come to know them quite well. A few years later he remarried, and was sealed in the temple, to a really lovely lady he’d met at an older single adult activity. The two wives are chalk and cheese. Very different to each-other. Although he and his new wife didn’t live in the ward boundaries, they would visit occasionally, and she spoke once in relief society, about how she would have conversations in her mind with the deceased wife sometimes.
Moving to a new ward, I visit taught a sister who expressed a strong dislike for polygamy, but who is otherwise a dedicated member. And not too long ago one of the older sisters in the ward married and was sealed to a widower. Another moment of dissonance for me. This man and his family had joined the church in my ward when I was a teenager. I had known the first wife. She was very different to the sister I knew in my current ward. This being Britain, there was the church wedding first. And the ward pretty much pulled out all the stops. This sister had been divorced twice, and had been attending single adult activities, and had really wanted to find a good husband. They appreciated the effort that had gone into the wedding for them, but expressed disappointment that so few had attended the sealing at the temple afterwards. I wondered how many had felt as I had on receiving an invitation to the sealing. That it was something I just didn’t want to have to address. I could deal with the wedding, but I did not want to have to think beyond that.
I’ve been studying more over the last few years, and the discovery that polygamy was sold to the women in the early church as the only way the curse of Eve could be overcome really angers me. Recent reading of Doctrine & Covenants 132, has reminded me how appalling women are viewed in that section. Joseph gets his wives, irrespective of how Emma feels. Her proposed additional husband? That was just an Abrahamic test for Joseph, subsequently withdrawn. Women given to men!
All this is in stark contrast to the oneness required for husband and wife as preached now, and indeed reiterated in President Eyring’s address at the Vatican Colloquium. And I’ve seen numerous online discussions of the way in which our doctrine/practice comes between a husband and wife, preventing that oneness. In spite of my discomfort at the idea of attending the sealing of a man to a second wife, I’m not wholly sure that I agree with those sentiments either. In my reading of scripture I don’t see oneness being limited to spouses, or families. Rather that the aim is for the whole human family to become one. I see the family on earth as being a laboratory of sorts, in practising that, in beginning to build it. I do think we might perhaps be overplaying the nuclear family now as an eternal identity. Though goodness knows that has to beat the sealing chaos taking place in Nauvoo and Utah, pre Wilford Woodruff’s reforms.
What I would ask, is redaction of those appalling verses in D&C 132, for men and women to be truly equal, and for temple and sealing practices to reflect that.
Discuss.
* Hawkgrrrl covered reaction to the recent polygamy essays in this post.
**The italicised introductory heading to the declaration in the link is not the same as the heading given back then.

The reason you are so appalled by the way women are treated in section 132 is because it is false doctrine. God loves all his children equally and doesn’t make half of them property and slaves of the other half.
Here is a detailed analysis of why 132 should be ignored: http://gregstocks.wordpress.com/2014/10/02/dc-section-132-is-an-other-gospel/
^The church just enshrined it (for the time being), so if it’s false in reality, the church is living in an alternate one. An option I consider, but not one the church entertains.
OP, it’s funny (‘funny’ is the wrong word) how people misunderstand that verse in D&C 132 about Emma taking another husband (possibly William Law, right). When people talk about JS having an abrahamic test in polygamy, they don’t reference him having to share emma and then not having to, they reference the entire institution of polygamy as JS’ abrahamic test (see the likes of Kathleen Skaggs) which is kind of hilarious since Abraham didn’t end up having to kill his son as part of the test because an angel stopped him, but girls did end up having to marry JS because an angel made him. Not the same.
To hopefully add to discussion (and I’m heartily sorry I can’t truncate this succinctly):
Polygamy, as a practice and as an issue the church has tried to manage, serves most fully as the archetype for my ‘disaffection’, or whatever you want to call it, with Mormonism. I kept a ‘church journal’ in my teens, and at the back I wrote a list titled ‘questions to ask when I die’ and the first question, underlined on multiple occasions was ‘POLYGAMY. EVERYTHING ABOUT IT’. As I got older my perceptions developed and approach of the issue gained historical depth and contextual traction but the question remains simple, yet not remotely reductionist.
I always studied church curriculum thoroughly, so I was aware JS had some ‘plural wives’ but it was implied to have happened because [insert completely non-factual attempt at rationalising the practice]. I’m also from England, and our access to non-correlation was even harsher than for those in many parts of the US. In college, I was fortunate enough to have a job at the LDS bookstore that popped up when the temple was built, where I read RSR to try and make peace with the doctrine. I assumed it was doctrine because it remained canonized in D&C and was practiced via sealings. I once searched ‘Fanny Alger’ on the internet, but wasn’t brave enough to click any links, having been warned a thousand times that looking for LDS information outside of church approved sources was, as apostles tell us, looking to Judas for info on Jesus.
I defended the church about a lot of things that turned out to be indefensible (peers told me the church said black people were less valiant, that the BOM used to reference a change in skin colour, when the temple was built there was a revival of The Godmakers and people told me Mormon High Worship included miming suicide), at which point I realised that my platitudes about polygamy could be wrong too. I felt guilt about hating D&C 132, hating the ‘law of sarah’, and fearing that I was less faithful because if God asked me to accept polygamy, I’d have to be ok with it or be damned.
Fast forward past my A-Levels, move to the US, and BYU attendance, and I was about to get married. I had been told my entire life that you go to the temple to make covenants with God. I wasn’t allowed to go to the temple until 2 days before I got married and when I did, I made covenants to my husband. I started wondering if the ‘Adam-God is false doctrine!’ was also something I was wrong about, since that theory permitted theological space for my husband to be my God. Two days later I ‘gave’ myself to my husband who ‘received’ me.This was the only part of the temple (well, and the veils, and not being allowed to see ceremonial clothing EVEN AS I WAS BUYING IT, aaaand now it’s on YouTube) that bothered me on my first trip. I was shaken pretty but assumed I’d just misunderstood, but this ‘gave me permission’ to start digging into polygamy instead of shelving it. I realised this couldn’t just be ‘leftover’ language from a previous time because they’d changed the temple wording a few times an decided to keep that in.
Fast forward through a few more years, some kids, and a ton of heavy reading, and my original stress (“polygamy. everything about it”) still stood, but now with an added option I hadn’t let myself consider as a teen: maybe JS was wrong. Now, I have other more pressing issues that undermine religiousity in general but there’s still residual disdain for polygamy. The origins are dodgy. The practice is paradoxical and problematic. The church obfuscated truths with correlation for either member comfort or exoteric normalisation, but maintained strict belief in the practice of it in full asymmetrical glory, esoterically speaking. When I heard the temple videos were being redone, I felt a spark of hope, but when the script was the same I was deflated. After the race & the priesthood essay, I was hopeful the same approach would come with the polygamy essays, revolutionising the modern church to theological egalitarianism, but the essays were a smack in the face. They basically said ‘God (the same god that gives no commandment unto the children of men save he shall prepare a way) gave JS the task of polygamy ‘but not the specifics of its practice’, and even though we acknowledge that polygamy disadvantaged women more than men, we know God gave the discretionary power over how to execute the specifics of this sexist process to men. Amen. Oh, but don’t worry about it because God will sort it in the next life, so all this pain you feel right now and covenant to in the temple for eternity because we still practice the endowment that way, and practice polygamy (if sealings are the only marriages to ‘count’), will get sorted; God won’t make you do anything you hate, unless you’re a teenager and JS is interested in you, and then it’s ok. Moving on, guys’.
Apologies for the length of this.
Also, Greg, if D&C 132 is false doctrine but the church continues to laud it as revelation, then Mormon’s are led by prophets who are more short-sighted than many of its congregants (especially female ones) which contributes to the can of worms I’m currently languishing in.
Naomi,
That certainly is the case and is proved by the 126 year ban on Blacks from holding the priesthood which was recently rejected by current ‘prophets and apostles’ and attributed to “cultural differences”. If they were wrong about that why not other things? http://gregstocks.wordpress.com/2014/11/18/blacks-and-priesthood-heresy/
We shouldn’t trust in the arm of flesh. We don’t need middlemen in our personal relationship with God.
“President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel(please read this) – said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish Church – that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls – applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall – that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves…”
…and then having to defend the indefensible to my kids. I am actually proud, on mature reflection, that my kids, both sons and daughters, have left the church at least in part over this.
I actually don’t know a woman who is OK about this, and I don’t want to know the man who is. The only thing that has kept me hanging on is my husband’s dislike of the whole idea, which has enabled me to feel safer. I suggest that no woman ever marry a man who anticipates the restoration of the principal, since he is stating his intention to be unfaithful.
And the de-canonising of 132 would enable a lot of people to re-commit to the gospel. I pity the poor missionaries these days. What on earth are they teaching them to say in the light of new historical evidence and access to these sources through the internet? I have to remind myself that I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon every day to get through this. And my marital situation is not even complicated.
I guess I was innoculated about polygamy from a very young age, as both my mother and father’s geneology include polygamists, and it was just something that was there, alongside the trek west, the seagulls, crickets, and blossoming desert.
The details of marrying other men’s wives and teenage daughters is a discovery of the internet age, and I line up with the majority of the comments to Harkgrrl’s post that these issues cause me more doubt than actual polygamy.
It’s taken me a long time to organize my thoughts on polygamy. I grew up with polygamy as a normal part of my family’s history, but I didn’t really think through the implications until I was married. I was thrilled to find an autobiographical note from one of my ancestors her difficulty living the practice. Her honest admission made me feel like it was okay to dislike polygamy, that it was a normal reaction. When I shared that idea with other members, though, I quickly found that we still had a cultural expectation that members shouldn’t say anything negative about polygamy. I’m guessing this is left over from the whole 19th-century “put on a happy face” when the federal government was trying to find reasons to go after the Mormons. Once the Manifesto (and 2nd Manifesto) hit, though, saying good things about polygamy suddenly wasn’t kosher. Admitting negative aspects about the historical practice among mainstream members, however, was still considered akin to declaring leaders as false prophets. Members’ acceptance of polygamy (in spite of the hardships) was considered proof of their faithfulness and testimonies. That of course implied the opposite — anyone who had serious issues with polygamy clearly was lacking in the testimony department.
I really, really wish we as members could allow ourselves to freely discuss the hardships of polygamy. We have biblical stories of Sarah and Hagar, Leah and Rachel, and Hannah and Peninnah. We have Jacob 2 which states in painfully vivid details the impact on the wives and children of the Nephites. Why in the world are we supposed to pretend that polygamy was a happy experience for all participants? We as members are asked to accept that this was a command from God (perhaps to raise up seed, the only scriptural justification). We are NOT expected to like the fact that God commanded this, or to love how it was implemented.
I have a really strong testimony of the scriptures. This means I have to deal with some really unpleasant stuff: God commanding Abraham to lie about Sarah, God commanding Abraham to kill his son, God *accepting* Jephthah’s sacrifice of his daughter, and God commanding Nephi to kill a sleeping drunk and steal his stuff, among many others. I don’t like any of it, but it doesn’t mean I’ll lose my testimony of the scriptures over it.
When I first learned about the more unpleasant aspects of early polygamy (especially the deception against Emma and other church members), I felt like I’d been kicked in the stomach. I stayed away from the subject for a long time, until another research interest forced me to face it head on. There are a lot of things I hate about polygamy, but I have enough spiritual experiences under my belt to believe that the gospel this church teaches is still true in spite of them. But please, don’t ask me to justify the jarring facts and somehow turn them into cakes and rainbows. I can’t do it with human sacrifice, and I can’t do it with polygamy.
#5: I agree that de-canonizing 132 would be useful. It would strengthen marriages by encouraging men to improve the marriage relationship they’re in. They’d recognize that the wife they have is the one they’re stuck with for eternity–and they’re not going to be getting a “bonus” in the next life.
However, since doctrine is determined by the Quorum of the 12, and many of these men have moved on to a second wife already, (Perry and Nelson come to mind immediately) the chance of decanonization is, IMO, nil.
If we were being asked to engage in plural marriage today, I could see the sense of all the discussion on polygamy. But, since we’re not, I don’t understand the sudden fascination. Seems like every discussion is aimed at making the not so subtle point that JS wasn’t/couldn’t have been a prophet because of the plural marriage question. If you want to discuss what you consider the “vestiges” of plural marriage as it relates to temple sealings, then that conversation makes sense. After all, I think we should be more concerned with what allows us to marry a second spouse today, and what effect sealings will have in the eternities, both those sealings performed while living and those performed vicariously. IMO, those are the only ones that matter at this point.
“What I would ask, is redaction of those appalling verses in D&C 132, for men and women to be truly equal, and for temple and sealing practices to reflect that.” I’m curious – would you be okay with a sealing policy that allowed living women to be sealed to more than one husband? (Deceased women can already be sealed to all husbands they’ve had in mortality.) Or, would you like a one to one sealing policy, meaning a living person could only be sealed to one person at a time. This would force some interesting discussions among potential marriage partners. Along those same lines, we could then seal both men and women vicariously to all the spouses they had in mortality and then let the parties shake things out in the eternities.
IDIAT: A couple comments. First, the essays are why this is suddenly a big conversation again. The church has been mum on this topic for a couple decades, prohibiting their discussion and presenting a portrait of Joseph and Emma as a happy monogamous couple. Now they’ve reasserted the supremacy of polygamy and even cited the reprehensible so-called Law of Sarah (that was originally trotted out in the Reed Smoot trials) in defense of the indefensible. We didn’t bring it up. The church did.
Your question about women having multiple sealings and that raising difficult questions is interesting, but it’s already an issue that if a previously-sealed LDS woman is divorced, there are many LDS men who don’t want to date her because they can’t be sealed to her. So that inequity also exists. Even the apostles haven’t touched the untouchable horror of a previously-sealed divorced LDS woman. They’ve been congratulated in some circles for generously taking the unmarriageable spinsters off our collective hands, but maybe there was another motive in doing so: assured primacy. Such are the fruits of this lopsided doctrine.
Hedgehog: I was unaware of modern day polygamist offshoots also until I was at BYU. I had no idea, and had to address ignorant jokes about me eventually having multiple husbands when I grew up. It was incomprehensible to me that anyone would choose to continue the practice once there was any way out of it. Plus, unless you live in Utah, it’s unlikely you would know it, at least back in the 1980s.
To piggy-back on Hawk’s comment, I dated a widow when I was single. She felt like she was damaged goods because “no good Mormon men” would consider marrying her since she was sealed to her first husband. She ended up getting married to a non-member because of the problem. Is this solution acceptable to church leadership? Because I guarantee she is not the only person to feel this way. (And she told me it upset her so much that she spoke to a general authority about it. She also told me that her first husband didn’t treat her well, and she didn’t want to be sealed to him for eternity. Incidentally, he died in a snowmobiling accident when she was 5 months pregnant.)
Has the church ever “un scriptured” anything ?
is it possible that you will get your wish that parts of section 132 will just get discarded?
Hmm. I think Elder Robert E. Wells was a general authority, and he married a widow sealed to another man. I just did the probate of a fellow who married a previously sealed widow. The first Provo Temple president was sealed to a woman who in fact was sealed to her first deceased husband. That was in the middle of last century. I know of many sealed widows who have remarried, so perhaps they aren’t as damaged goods as we might think. Anyway, I’m all for allowing living women to be sealed to more than one man. At the end of the day they will be sealed anyway, so why not do it while they are alive? Unless, of course, there’s a doctrinal reason for not doing so as opposed to a policy reason. The problem is that I’ve never read an official reason why we don’t allow living women to be sealed to more than one husband. My point about all the plural marriage stuff is the obsession over something that is dead and gone, whereas the question of plural sealings and how things might shake out is a present concern. I don’t need leaders to receive revelation on the ‘why’ of polygamy. I want them to receive revelation on whether we’ll be monogamous or plural in the life to come.
Pangwitch – yes, the church “un scriptured” the Article of Marriage in the D&C that denied the church practiced polygamy and stated monogamy as the only position of the church. It was approved as a “statement of belief” in 1835, written by Oliver Cowdery, so it was never classified as revelation. It was in both the 1835 (Section 101) and 1844 (Section 109) editions of the D&C. The Article of Marriage was removed in the 1876 edition and replaced with Section 132.
Since Section 132 is classified as revelation, I’m not sure it would get “un scriptured.” The 1890 Manifesto as an Official Document kind of puts the position of the church in the monogamy category, even though it wasn’t until 1904 that polygamous marriages were actually prohibited churchwide. The Family Proclamation appears to take a monogamous stance, but it’s not explicitly stated. I know church policy is that all members currently must be monogamous, even in countries where polygamy is legal. We don’t have anything of “revelation status” that could replace Section 132, just policy statements.
IMO, if leaders view polygamy as a temporary command to “raise up seed,” then I could see the plural marriage parts of Section 132 eventually getting pulled. If they view it as part of the “restoration of all things,” it’ll probably stay till the Second Coming.
IDIAT, the church only abandoned polygamy very reluctantly (to put it mildly) when it was forced to by the government. Moreover, the church has never renounced the doctrine. I think it’s fair to assume that had it not been forced to cease it, the mormon church would still be engaged in the practice of plural marriage. Active members are forced to listen to and study the words of prophets and apostles who spent an inordinate amount of their ministries not only practicing, but praising the doctrine of polygamy as the only true order of marriage under god. If it’s still a putative doctrine of the church, then why in the world would a member of the church who feels uncomfortable with that doctrine NOT want to talk about it, especially since (as Hawk pointed out) the church has made it a front and center issue again. Frankly, I find it more interesting that people who obviously don’t have an interest in discussing it continue to try to shout down those who do. Many people want to discuss it. If you don’t, that’s great. I’m not sure why you feel the need to tell others they shouldn’t.
#13 Panguich: Yes, the Church “unscriptured” the entire “Lectures on Faith, which had previously been published in every edition of the Doctrine and Covenants between 1835 and 1921.
IDIAT, it’s the uncertainty around plural marriage that makes it a nagging concern to many members (especially women). The essay on post-Manifesto polygamy ends with “Marriage between one man and one woman is God’s standard for marriage, unless He declares otherwise, which He did through His prophet, Joseph Smith.” What’s to say that God won’t declare otherwise in the future? Many of the members believed the Manifestos to be only a temporary stop to the practice. Even in the current edition of our scriptures, the footnote to Isaiah 4:1 implies a belief that polygamy will be practiced in the destruction prior to the second coming. So when leaders issue policy statements that our *current* stance is monogamy, it’s not really as comforting as they think it is. What would be nice is an official revelation saying, “The command to Joseph Smith to practice plural marriage has been fulfilled. It will never be required of my people again.”
Also IDIAT, fun fact, the first president of the church to NOT be a polygamist was George A. Smith in 1945. We’ve had polygamists as prophets for over 60% of our church’s short history. It doesn’t feel “dead and gone” enough.
Mary Ann- That’s a sobering perspective. I had NO idea!
How many women want to join a church that keeps polygamy warm on the back burner…for whenever God commands it again? Yuck! And if that’s not what the church meant in the essay, then I think it should be clarified. As it is, they have reopened a wound for a lot of LDS women and probably deterred more than a few others from giving the church a chance.
Thanks for the comments all. I’ll try to respond.
Greg/stokoneder #1,#4
I’ve read that the antecedents of section 132 leave something to be desired. And given we’re studying the Doctrine & Covenants as a family at the moment I pointed that out. The eldest of my children(17) was aware it is not included in the CofChrist D&C.
naomi #2,3
“…how people misunderstand that verse in D&C 132 about Emma taking another husband (possibly William Law, right). When people talk about JS having an abrahamic test in polygamy, they don’t reference him having to share emma and then not having to, they reference the entire institution of polygamy as JS’ abrahamic test (see the likes of Kathleen Skaggs) which is kind of hilarious since Abraham didn’t end up having to kill his son…”
Yes. I commented on hawkgrrrls post, that to make sense of that section, you have to know the history first. If you don’t know about William Law (I read it was him too) being proposed as an additional husband for Emma, it must hard to know how to interpret those verses, it’s all phrased so obscurely. But I don’t see how any other suggested interpretation makes sense of those verses as written.
You worked in the bookstore, that’s interesting. I heard recently the shop in Godstone has closed, though there is now a shop more conveniently located to the Preston Temple than the shop in Godstone was to the London Temple. And they are now online. I’m surprised to read you read RSR there, they didn’t seem to have much history the few occassions I got to go, which wasn’t that often. This is the history at the moment (http://www.ldsbookuk.com/historical-40-c.asp), which looks to be mainly devotional, rather than challenging correlation.
“The practice is paradoxical and problematic. The church obfuscated truths with correlation for either member comfort or exoteric normalisation, but maintained strict belief in the practice of it in full asymmetrical glory, esoterically speaking.”
and “Oh, but don’t worry about it because God will sort it in the next life, so all this pain you feel right now and covenant to in the temple for eternity because we still practice the endowment that way, and practice polygamy (if sealings are the only marriages to ‘count’), will get sorted”
Yes. I’ll get into my response to that more when I respond to IDIAT’s comments, as it’s all tied up together.
handlewithcare, #5 “I actually don’t know a woman who is OK about this, and I don’t want to know the man who is.”
I was certainly taken aback by the women who didn’t appear to object, that I described in the OP. It was a quite a strange stake though in some ways. I recall one stake conference where the president’s wife speaking said she and her sister felt very honoured to be the mothers of so many sons (5 or 6 each maybe, don’t recall exact numbers), and to be entrusted with raising righteous priesthood holders, and I really winced for their daughters (either 1 or 2 each), who would have been listening. There was another family in the stake who valued their sons and grandsons, but not their granddaughters.
“And the de-canonising of 132 would enable a lot of people to re-commit to the gospel.”
Yes.
The Other Clark #6, #8
There must be quite a lot of members who have polygamous ancestors, so for them this in part forcing them to take a closer look at possible unpleasantness in their family history, examine their ancestors.
“However, since doctrine is determined by the Quorum of the 12, and many of these men have moved on to a second wife already, (Perry and Nelson come to mind immediately) the chance of decanonization is, IMO, nil.”
I’m not especially against people marrying again so much as I am the perception that women are given to men, as described in section 132. So for me it’s more a question of how the wives/women are viewed contrasted to the way in men are viewed/portrayed. But it’s going to be easier to go into more detail when I respond to IDIAT’s direct question further down.
MaryAnn #7 “I was thrilled to find an autobiographical note from one of my ancestors her difficulty living the practice. Her honest admission made me feel like it was okay to dislike polygamy, that it was a normal reaction.”
and #19 “the first president of the church to NOT be a polygamist was George A. Smith in 1945. We’ve had polygamists as prophets for over 60% of our church’s short history. It doesn’t feel “dead and gone” enough.”
Thanks for this. I do wonder to what extent our failure to properly address the issues is because many of our leaders are recent descendants of those who practised it, and are not themselves very far removed in time, from the practice. They’d have been living in 1945. It’s disconcerting to think, given the above, that their views of women may well be akin to the views of the polygamists themselves.
“Members’ acceptance of polygamy (in spite of the hardships) was considered proof of their faithfulness and testimonies. That of course implied the opposite — anyone who had serious issues with polygamy clearly was lacking in the testimony department.
I really, really wish we as members could allow ourselves to freely discuss the hardships of polygamy.”
Yes. I do think the essays, have opened that conversation a crack or too, IDIAT’s protestation notwithstanding.
IDIAT #9,#10: “If we were being asked to engage in plural marriage today, I could see the sense of all the discussion on polygamy. But, since we’re not, I don’t understand the sudden fascination.”
The thing is IDIAT, in a sense we are doing just that. For example, divorced women who remain sealed to their former husbands who then remarry. They’re not legally married, or in an intimate relationship with that man any longer here and now, but from an eternal perspective as evidenced by our sealing practices, they are still his wife. That was certainly how the divorced sister I mentioned in the OP saw things. As did those sisters who had married widowers I mentioned in the OP.
“I think we should be more concerned with what allows us to marry a second spouse today, and what effect sealings will have in the eternities, both those sealings performed while living and those performed vicariously.”
Certainly, I agree absolutely, but I think it is disingenuous to suggest, as your comment does, that we don’t currently see it as a form of polygamy.
“I’m curious – would you be okay with a sealing policy that allowed living women to be sealed to more than one husband? (Deceased women can already be sealed to all husbands they’ve had in mortality.) Or, would you like a one to one sealing policy, meaning a living person could only be sealed to one person at a time.”
First I think we do need to address, what precisely sealing is. Because things seem to have changed a lot from the pre Woodruff reforms. Then, the view appeared to be one in which people were far more interested in being sealed to someone, anyone, whom they saw as having a high chance of achieving exaltation, be that as either a spouse or adopted child. There didn’t seem to be a lot of concern for ancestors, beyond providing baptism. It seems to have been very messy, and to have broken up families. It also required members judge whether or not a person was likely to be exalted. Did they want to take a chance being sealed to that person? This comes across as being practical, and not at all romantic. In part, polygamy is tangled up with that too. And unfortunately this led to the spouse sealing being seen as not only a practical matter for the eternities. The part I most object to is the placing of men as patriarchs over multiple wives, and those wives depicted as just reward for righteousness. The place of women in that picture is a very uncomfortable one. It isn’t equal.
I think the Woodruff reforms were essential, in that working on linking people together sealing as families, as children and spouses and so on, is the only sensible, and methodical way to ensure that everybody is included in sealing, with the end result that the whole human family be sealed up together. In theory it has the potential to be wholly practical. In that where people have divorced and remarried it shouldn’t really matter to whom they actually sealed, so long as they are sealed to someone, if in the end we will all be truly one. But a) that isn’t how it is taught and b) unfortunately the polygamous attitudes of patriarchs over wives persists when sealing practices are inequitable.
So, how do I feel? For a) As a church we put a lot, a huge amount of emphasis on eternal families, husbands and wives being sealed in the temple, children being sealed to parents. We value that immediate and direct link to our spouses and children. There’s a lot of anguish caused for women remarrying, and who require a sealing cancellation, who feel they might be losing that link to their children, however people may try to explain to them that they aren’t. We also put an inordinate amount of emphasis on eternal marriage and being with ones spouse for eternity, in a way which makes it sound like the ultimate romantic love story. Becoming one with ones spouse, to the exclusion of all and everyone else it sometimes seems. And there is a lot of people very invested in that. Which brings us to b). Trying to marrying that idea of an eternal romantic spousal bond between husband and wife crashes right up against the patriarchal polygamous sealing practices, and understandably causes distress. Especially given the fact that a lot of men take on that patriarchal stance in their attitude to women. And that is damaging. But there are other drawbacks too, an over-concentration on spouse and family can lead to us ignoring those outside our immediate family circle. And an overemphasis on spending eternity with a spouse can put a lot of pressure on those in the position of selecting a spouse, particularly those who tend to want to optimise results and thus find it hard to make any selection at all, and I think we are seeing problems with that as a church.
What would I propose? My preference would be to allow additional sealings for both sexes on remarriage, without the requirement for cancellation. This would allow direct links between members of a any given family group, which we seem to value. It would also put women on an equal footing with men. They can retain a link to a man with whom they have had children, for benefit of those children, but are still free to marry again. It would require a bit of dialling back on the overemphasis on the eternal nature of specific oneness of a husband/wife though, which personally I think is a tad unhealthy and exclusionary anyway. But then I’m not a romantic.
Hedge #25 – I like your proposal, as I’ve never been able to reconcile why we’re serial monogamists, but then because of sealing policies,appear to be plural in perpetuity.
Actually, George Albert Smith (born 1870) was raised in a polygamous household (one of the 19 children of John Henry Smith), so while technically not a polygamist, this is why David O. McKay (who neither parent came from polygamist stock) is more closely identified with a break.
Here’s a easy way to remember it: If they wore a beard, they’re a polygamist.
The Other Clark – Doesn’t work so well when people use it to rationalize that Joseph Smith must not have been polygamous, cause he didn’t have a beard.
Maybe that’s the real reason behind the church’s dislike for facial hair!
Hedgehog – I enjoyed your comments.
I worked up in the bookstore that opened when the Preston temple did. The man who ran it was a church history lover, humble, and enthusiastic about learning. While RSR was the only ‘challenging’ history book he had there, it was there. No one really knew who Bushman was, and most people assumed it was ‘another biography’ of JS and would opt for something shorter and cuter. Hardly anyone bought or ordered it while I worked there, but it was there. The owner of that bookstore had a personal collection of church books though (and I wonder if his interests were influenced by the time he spent in Utah doing an MA) that would have blown members in our wards minds, but he was a super mature and humble man, and there’s no way he’d have rocked people’s theological boats for kicks. Out of our entire region, my boss was the only man I knew who understood the gospel this way though, and he was super quiet about it. His influence is possibly the biggest contributor to my being able to disentangle myself from much of Mormonism without knee-jerk reaction of ‘IT’S ALLLLL FALSE’.
Also – I didn’t know Godstone had closed! The man who ran the bookstore I worked at sold it on very recently. RSR really was the only ‘fringey’ book they had there (there were one or two weird NDE books, but I don’t think they count as theologically fringey haha). I’m going home in March and I’m curious what direction the new owners have taken the business.
#27 The Other Clark – good point. Although that pushes the break to 1951, which makes it 66% of our history. LOL – somehow not any more comforting.
If we’re going to get technical, then Joseph F. Smith kind of straddles the line between monogamist and polygamist. His first wife couldn’t have children and he was ordered to take on a second wife. The first wife eventually divorced him over difficulties living plural marriage, so the children seem to have been raised in a monogamist household.
#24 Hedgehog – yes, I suspect this issue has been sensitive to church leaders with close ties to the practice. Joseph Fielding Smith was technically the son of a polygamist, though it’s a gray area as explained above. After David O. McKay, many of the presidents were grandchildren of polygamists (Harold B. Lee, Spencer W. Kimball, Ezra Taft Benson, and even Gordon B. Hinckley). The only presidents that don’t seem to have polygamy in their background are David O. McKay, Howard W. Hunter, and Thomas S. Monson. Maybe as we get more leaders who don’t come from polygamists, or are far enough removed not to take things personally, we might be able to distance ourselves better. I know of one current leader who had polygamist grandparents, but I haven’t looked into any others.
#32 Mary Ann: Joseph F Smith had FIVE wives, and was sealed to four of them at the same time, so painting him as a serial monogamist is misleading. Although, speaking of serial monogamists, his son Joseph Fielding Smith was sealed to three wives (remarrying after the death of each).
So if the polygamy era ended with the “my parents were polygamists”, it should extend at least through 1972.
#33 Other Clark – LOL – lesson learned. Don’t trust Wikipedia.
Okay, Wikipedia had the wives and kids listed in a separate menu, I just didn’t click on it. Dumb error. I identified the grandparents of the other presidents as polygamists in FamilySearch, so I believe that’s accurate.
In my mind there is simply no religious justification for polygamy and the fact that Joseph Smith hid it from Emma speaks volumes as to its true nature. So step up to the plate church and apologize already! Show us what repentance truly is. Your essays just released on the subject are a poor attempt to justify a man who could not keep his pants on.
attention Wheat and tares IT department
for several days the blog was not accessible there was just a message debugging in WordPress were you aware of this?
winifred: We have been working through a few programming bugs lately. Hopefully it’s in hand now. Seems to vary according to browser.
Faith is a decision.
Faith rises or falls based on evidence. How one views evidence is an individual matter.
Reasonable people can take the available evidence about Joseph Smith and polygamy and reach very different decisions.
Some individuals will view him as a conman and philander while others honor him as a prophet doing all he can to implement God’s will.
I honor Joseph Smith as a prophet.
If we can consider Brigham Young a prophet while disavowing his racism, couldn’t we consider Joseph Smith a prophet while disavowing his polygamy?
I view Smith as such a huge con man (Zelph and the flaming sword angel are my personal favorites) that it doesn’t matter that he might have been a womanizer as well.
Wow. I get back to continue responding and the list has grown. Thanks for all the further comments.
Hawkgrrrl #11, “unless you live in Utah, it’s unlikely you would know it, at least back in the 1980s.”
Perhaps TV has put it more in the public eye today.
MH #12, Yes. That must be tough too. In my aunt’s case both husbands were non-members I think.
brjones #16: “the church only abandoned polygamy very reluctantly (to put it mildly) when it was forced to by the government. Moreover, the church has never renounced the doctrine. I think it’s fair to assume that had it not been forced to cease it, the mormon church would still be engaged in the practice of plural marriage.”
There’s that. But it is also interesting to note that it was after OD1 (1890) that Wilford Woodruff brought in the reforms of sealing practices (1894). I do tend to see current sealing inequities as a hangover from that time.
MaryAnn #18: “So when leaders issue policy statements that our *current* stance is monogamy, it’s not really as comforting as they think it is. What would be nice is an official revelation saying, “The command to Joseph Smith to practice plural marriage has been fulfilled. It will never be required of my people again.””
Yes.
#32: “Maybe as we get more leaders who don’t come from polygamists, or are far enough removed not to take things personally, we might be able to distance ourselves better.”
How many generations removed would be necessary do you think?
Naomi #30&31
“I worked up in the bookstore that opened when the Preston temple did. The man who ran it was a church history lover, humble, and enthusiastic about learning.”
I’ve only been to the Godstone shop since I’ve always been in the London Temple district. But I had thought they were linked, or part of the same business. Obviously Godstone had been there far longer, the London Temple being so much older. They did stock the FARMS publications I recall, but I didn’t see anything else that wasn’t either authored by, or biography of a GA, for books.
“The man who ran the bookstore I worked at sold it on very recently.”
That might explain the changes in the website. It used to be more book focussed. But recently it’s far more weighted towards church-related frippery. I wondered what had happened.
America isn’t England. If you want a monogamous form of Christianity maybe try the Church of England.