Wheat & Tares welcomes guest poster Bill Reel once more for a discussion on “Grace and Christ’s Enabling Power”, and a discussion of how a more encouraging view of grace can be taught.
At Mormon Discussion Podcast we discuss this week the topic of Grace. God’s Enabling Power. This view of Grace softens the “After all We Can Do”. It values Grace as taught in the Book of Mormon, and it in my opinion meshes and reconciles all scripture. Most importantly it is a view of Grace that encourages rather than discourages people in their pressing forward with steadfastness.
Someone asked me my views on grace – More then any other topic in Religion, this one has blessed my life. This will be long but if you might take several days to ponder the talks and scriptures here and consider my words you will be enlightened even if you still disagree with me.
1.) – Most Latter Day Saints use either 2nd Nephi 25:23 or the Bible Dictionary to share their understanding that grace comes in after and only after we do all we can do and expend our own best efforts. Nobody ever does their best for a whole day never mind a lifetime. We fall short. Because many think they have to do their best they become depressed, discouraged, and give up. This understanding of 2nd Nephi 25:23 is incorrect. the after has many meanings. It can also be translated as notwithstanding or nevertheless. In other words “inspite of all I do, it is Grace by which I am saved”. The bible Dictionary simply furthers the wrong interpretation. The LDS bible dictionary is not doctrine and is not binding as it says so itself in it’s introduction.
2.) Ether 12:27 – God gave us our weakness or made us a natural Man that makes mistakes and is fallen and has flaws. Why did he do that? So we would be humble. Why? So we would turn to his Son. Why? Because his Son makes Weakness Strengths – 2nd Cor 12:9-10. Stop beating yourself up, Paul didn’t.
3.) Many in the church want to have value placed on works. They will say things that tend to say “My good works have merit in my salvation”
but these scriptures and quotes say otherwise
Helaman 14:13, Alma 24:10, Moroni 6:4, D&C 3:20, 2nd Nephi 31:19 there are many more… a whole slew of them
Now this doesn’t mean “one only need believe, and then thou art saved” like some evangelicals proclaim.
Rather we must get in our heads Keeping commandments, accepting ordinances, doing good works are all required and necessary. But they are in place to push us to grow, progress, and through Christ’s grace receive the mighty change from Alma 5
4.) We place value on outside behavior but god looketh on the heart as the bible says and also Helaman 3:35 says it is our yielding our heart to God that brings sanctification… aka: the mighty change.
5.) To live with God again we must be justified. To do so can be done three ways.
A.) To keep the law perfectly – Only Jesus did, so sorry your out of luck here
B.) To live the gospel always pressing forward with steadfastness and repenting when you don’t: repentance means change
C.) D&C 19:15-18 to suffer for your own sins
6.)This will justify you (make you clean from your sins) but in order to live with God you must be sanctified as well (spiritually changed to be Christlike)<— this doesn’t happen instantaneously for most, it is a journey… one day at a time.
D&C 88:21 only the sanctified will be Celestial. Sanctification comes from yoking with Christ and using his Grace or enabling power to change (Ether 12:27). This change will happen in the eternities for many who would have done so here if the opportunity presented itself. Perfection is an eternal Goal, will not be achieved in this life.
7.)So how do we access this. Grace comes in as soon as we exercise faith and grace added to Grace as we live more and more of the gospel in our heart. Moroni 10:31 – 32 – you must see this scripture as a process and you must not think that you have to reach a certain level of righteousness at any one point in this life. Notice how we become perfected in Christ then later we become perfect in Christ.
8.) To be perfected in Christ is to yoke with him in the baptismal covenant and live that covenant. When we do so we have a relationship with Christ. We borrow his perfection as we keep this covenant. His grace is at work in our life perfecting us.
9.) What is the covenant – Mosiah 18 – be “willing” to mourn with those that mourn, comfort those in need of comfort, stand as a witness of him, remember him always (sacrament), and repent when you mess up. Look at the bread prayer and Water Prayer of the sacrament – Only the bread asks us to keep the commandments but it also says “willing”. The Water prayer says neither. If you had to “keep the commandments” to have his spirit – you would break the covenant within minutes of making it and he would be bound to remove the spirit from you all the time. But if your promise is to be willing to keep the commandments then you can do it. It measures your desires, and attitude, and motives. You still must repent when behavior is sin but that too demonstrates your heart and willingness to be humble and to follow him. To see this view even further, Wouldn’t it be incredible if we found the Savior agreeing that we only need be “willing” to keep the commandments? Well, in 3rd Nephi 18:10 the Savior himself after implementing the Sacrament states “And when the disciples had done this, Jesus said unto them: Blessed are ye for this thing which ye have done, for this is fulfilling my commandments, and this doth witness unto the Father that ye are willing to do that which I have commanded you.”
There is so much more to this but this is a good outline of my feelings on the subject.
I will conclude with this. The church on LDS.ORG has this definition of Grace which is newer and I feel 100% on
https://www.lds.org/topics/grace?lang=eng
Grace
Grace is the help or strength given through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. Through the grace of God, everyone who has lived will be resurrected—our spirits will be reunited with our bodies, never again to be separated. Through His grace, the Lord also enables those who live His gospel to repent and be forgiven.
Grace is a gift from Heavenly Father given through His Son, Jesus Christ. The word grace, as used in the scriptures, refers primarily to enabling power and spiritual healing offered through the mercy and love of Jesus Christ.
Everyone on earth experiences physical death. Through the grace of Jesus Christ, all will be resurrected and will live forever (see 1 Corinthians 15:20–22; 2 Nephi 9:6–13).
Because of personal choices, everyone also experiences the effects of sin (see 1 John 1:8–10; Mosiah 16:4). These effects are called spiritual death. No one can return to the presence of God without divine grace. Through the Atonement, we all can be forgiven of our sins; we can become clean before God. To receive this enabling power, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8–9; James 2:17–22; 2 Nephi 25:23; 31:20).
The grace of God helps us every day. It strengthens us to do good works we could not do on our own. The Lord promised that if we humble ourselves before Him and have faith in Him, His grace will help us overcome all our personal weaknesses (see Ether 12:27).
Notice the word Trying (I bolded, italicized, and underlined). Compare this definition with the LDS Bible Dictionary. See the difference?
– How do we interpret 2nd Nephi’s 25:23’s “After all we can do”?
– Do we feel we need to do all within our power before we access Christ’s Grace?
– Must we expend our own best efforts like the Bible Dictionary Says?
– How much of the price of our redemption must we pay?
– Do we covenant to keep the commandments are to be willing to do so?
This episode is found HERE
Resources
Brad Wilcox – His Grace is Suffcient
Stephen Robinson – “Believing christ”
Robert Milllet – “Grace after all we can do”
Robert Millet – “Why not speak of the atonement”
Brad and Wendee Wilcox – “faith, an anchor to the soul”
Bruce R McConkie “what think ye of salvation by grace”
Gerald Lund “salvation: by Grace or works”
Scripture I use all the time to reference my views
2nd Nephi all of chapter 31 with special focus to verse 18-21 then going to Ch 32:6
Helaman 3:35
2nd Nephi 2:3
3rd Nephi 27:16-20
Alma 42:22-24
Alma 24:11
Mosiah 5:15
Jacob 4:7, 12
Ether 12:27
2nd Nephi 25: 23-26, 29-30
Alma 24:11 (goes with 2nd Nephi 25:23)
Moroni 10:32-33
D&C 19:11-18
followed up by D&C 88:21
Alma 5:12-15, 26, 28 through the end
D&C 20:30-34
D&C 137:9
Abraham 3:25
Galatians 3:24
Galatians 2:20-21
2nd Corinthians 12:7-10
Romans 14:1-8
Romans 11:27-32
Romans 10:9-13,
Romans 10:3
Romans 8:6-14
Romans 8:1-4
Romans 6:14-19
Romans 5:1-9 &17-19
Romans 4:3-5, 16, 24-25
Romans 3:7-12, 20 -end of chapter
Romans 2:11-15
Wheat & Tares 
The peculiar LDS blend of grace and works is a practical and powerful combination. It is not as elegant as the Pauline version: belief and grace alone is sufficient, which then transforms us into God’s servants who follow Him out of love and gratitude. The Pauline philosophy is beautiful, but it is not practical for normal, selfish people, who, even if the Law is swallowed up in Christ, need the Law, because they are the same as the selfish people of Moses. So the genius of Mormonism was to bring back the Law, and make grace contingent upon obedience to that Law. Jesus is there, not to save us completely without any effort, but to help us help ourselves.
It could also be interpreted that Mormons believe in Evangelical grace, in that anyone who “confesses that Jesus is the Christ” (every knee shall bow and tongue confess), will be saved in a kingdom of Glory, at the very least the Telestial Kingdom. But on top of this, Mormons have this concept of eternal progression to higher kingdoms and godhood. These are “extras” which are accessed through works.
Thank you for the article. As I see it there is no point living laws unless we are using them to develop our personalities towards becoming Christlike. With the grace of Christ we can achieve salvation this way.
Exaltation requires a refinement that living laws can not achieve. Love compassion and other Christlike traits are on another level, and there are required, along with Grace to be worthy of exaltation.
Judgement will not be a listing of our achievements or obedience, but an assessment of our person to see whether it has been sufficiently refined to be Celestial.
I can’t imagine that if we are racist, or sexist, or homophobic, or other hate, all of which I see as lacking in love for a portion of our fellow man, that one would be celestial without some re-education first
How is it that everyone puts so much emphasis on 2Nephi 25:23:
23 , For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
I feel I know the answer – Because the entire Church membership misinterprets it terribly. Let’s interpret it the way Nephi interpreted it:
2Nephi 10:24:
24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.
Nephi’s interpretation: The reconciliation comes first, or in other words, the works, and then comes the grace ‘, after ye are reconciled unto God (once the works part is done, remember), that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved (then comes the salvation part).’
2Nephi 25:23, even though it’s read as, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved, after all we can do. Should be thought of as ‘after all I can do, it is by grace that I am saved’. Our works only show God what is in our hearts. As far salvation goes, God does it all. OUR WORKS DO NOTHING! On this point, the other churches are far ahead of us. Try something once. Look through all the Church manuals you can find and see if you can find any mention of 2Nephi10:24. I’ve never tried it yet. Probably never will.
If you want to understand this stuff, first you have to interpret the scriptures correctly. Now bring on your dozens of other scriptures.
Rich, I’m not sure how you are interpreting the scripture: in your mind is it: “we are saved by grace after all we can do (to be reconciled to God)” or are you saying grace comes only “after all I can do.” Or is it I’m saved “after all I can do to repent” or ” after all I can do during a lifetime of obedience” or “after all I can do for a week, or a day, or a moment?”
I seriously doubt that Nephi, if he was a historical person, would have understood the baggage modern Christians bring to the grace/works discussion. He was still living under the Law of Moses. It wasn’t till after Christ came that the Law was fulfilled in Christ. Trying to reconcile the Old Testament-era prophet Nephi with the New Testament-era Paul is impossible because they worked under different understandings.
But if Nephi’s words are being filtered through Joseph Smith’s understanding, it is clear Joseph Smith was a works-oriented prophet: “all blessings (including Salvation) are predicated upon obedience to laws.” It is a direct refutation of Pauline grace.
Nate:
When I read the scriptures, when I listen to the prophets(all of them), past, present, and future, when I listen to members of the Church, I wonder if anybody knows what they are talking about when they talk about salvation.(Ok,Ok, except for Jesus) In fact, let me give you some words of his that we have through Joseph Smith and printed in, relatively, modern English.
Assignment:
Read D&C 76:40-44
40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—
41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—
And as you read this, think about what it is saying. Listen to God. Never mind the prophets or anyone else.
And when you’re finished, you tell me who’s going to be saved.
“Listen to God, never mind the prophets or anyone else.”
I agree with this point and it brings up some interesting problems. You are listening to your own moral conscious, or whatever you are calling “God,” and then you are subjecting your reading of the scriptures to that interpretation. That may sometimes be desirable, because I think the scriptures should be “useful” and I like to use them flexibly. But on another level, I think it is good to recognize contradictions and disagreements among the prophets and scriptures. I like to recognize the disagreement between Paul and Joseph Smith for example, because it helps me understand how both views are espoused by spiritual men I respect, and both likely have very important things to say, even if they contradict.
Brovo Nate:
“never mind the prophets” might be interpreted as a bit harsh, but you made your way through it. Their place in the organization of the Church is crucial, because God said so. And, by the way, God, to me, is a personage who is our Father, in heaven, along with His wife, who is our Mother in heaven and when we left them, our greatest desire was return to them to live with them in exalted glory.
“ I think it is good to recognize contradictions and disagreements among the prophets and scriptures.”
Yes, them and everyone else. Just remember! God is your director! I feel we all need to stay on a path I call the quest for truth and this is it. In the quest for truth there are only four personages in the universe: there’s the Godhead’, that’s three, and then there is you. That’s four. No one else counts. All others are the arm of flesh talked about in section one. In them you do not put your trust and they make up everybody else on the earth (I would have said ‘in the universe’ but then I would have had to make a disclaimer that would have been more involved than I wanted to get.
“I like to recognize the disagreement between Paul and Joseph Smith for example, because it helps me understand how both views are espoused by spiritual men I respect, and both likely have very important things to say, even if they contradict.”
Fine. Sounds good.
And so, with all this, if you go through D&C 76:40-44, this is what you come up with;
1. Outside the sons of perdition, everyone will be saved. Right? RIGHT!
2. Therefore, works have nothing to do with our salvation. Right? RIGHT!
3. Since we are judged by our works, the judgment has nothing to do with salvation. Right? RIGHT!
If you don’t agree with this then, I would say you didn’t read the verses. If you did read them then I would say you didn’t think about them. If you didn’t think about them then you don’t have an important key – a key that will help to understand everything that is mentioned in the scriptures about grace, works, the judgment, salvation and who knows what else.
I’m going to take the key and go through all the scriptures Bill Reel mentioned and see what I get. Ill post my findings.
IMO…it’s not so much the listing of deeds done, both good and bad, that will determine whether each of us gets numbered amongst the proverbial “sheep” or “goats” (Matt 25:31-46), but what sort of person, by performing the good and avoidance (hopefully) of the evil we’ve become. I’m glad the verdict is in His hands.
As for myself, recalling what the “PAGAN” cult in “Dragnet”
(1987) advised their members, I won’t forget my goat leggings.