“I hate you because you are Mormon” was the response to “Good Morning, Law Office, may I help you?”
I’d caught the phone, and that was the first thing that the other person said.
‘Oookay…’ I thought, but did not verbalize.
“And I don’t have any money to pay lawyers”
‘Then why are you calling me’ – again, I caught myself before I did more than think.
Turns out the caller really did hate Mormons because of a recent crusade, and really did not have any money, but did need some legal services, really needed them, just could not pay for them. They just wanted to get the fact that they hated me, without knowing me, and couldn’t pay me, out of the way and on the table before they asked for free help.
…………..
“What’s wrong?”
“Dad, you know that teacher at high school I told you that I thought I was really getting to like her class?”
“Yes?”
“A group of kids decided to gang up on me because I’m Mormon, and they were getting really hostile. She walked over, because I was just sitting there quietly while they railed on me, and when she heard what was going on, her face went blank, she turned around and just walked out of the room.”
“She abandoned me, right after that lecture she gave us all about how bullying behavior and verbal assaults couldn’t be tolerated.”
…………..
“Steve.”
“Yes?”
“I know this isn’t part of my case, but my kid got called into the principal’s office in Burkburnett and put on suspension today.”
“What happened?”
“You know, we are Catholic, but we are from California. So when the teacher started talking about how Mormons are part of an evil cult and everyone needs do their part to stamp it out and rescue any of their kids, she spoke up.”
“The principal said that he would cut the suspension short, but the teacher was right – Mormons don’t have a place in any God-fearing community.”
“Ouch.”
“I’m going to be glad when the Air Force moves me out of here. I’ve liked you and a lot of people, but …”
…………..
“You know, when my husband died in that helicopter crash in the military, I really wanted to just stay put here. But after the spray paint and swear words attacking the Church on my drive-way, Steve, I think we are moving back to Utah.”
……………..
A columnist was recently read to have implied (at least as many quoted her — not in what she meant) that anyone who believes that Mormons are discriminated against on the basis of religion is basically just infantile (things such as “If we can’t claim to be persecuted” etc.).
But I’ve been thrown out of lunch groups, had employment offers withdrawn and had other things happen where the expressed reason, to my face, was my religion.
Now, admittedly, it is no where near as bad as what gays encounter. Sometimes it is even cute “Going to hell with that Dr. Pepper, aren’t I, Steve” always made me laugh rather than take offense when my then boss would say it (and I got to where I would buy her Dr. Peppers so she would realize I did not disapprove).
But it is real.
……………….
“Get over it.”
“What?”
“You’ve been jogging with me all morning and giving me the silent treatment, get over it.”
“I’m not the one who just launched an anti-Mormon crusade at my church this week.”
“G – it’s business, not personal. So get over it, and quit acting like it is a personal attack.”
(Which is what happened to a member of our ward who jogged with a Baptist minister every morning when the minister started an anti-Mormon crusade and he did without their usual banter.)
To the minister, it wasn’t anything to do with Mormons, none of them should take it personally, it was just business, a fund raising event. That some of the listeners might take it personally (and thus call people like me and open the conversation with “I hate you because you are Mormon” – what cheerful words to start a morning with), that didn’t count.
So, am I being infantile in thinking that there is some prejudice in some places based on religion? Not as bad as some experience, but still there? Or are those who misquote the writer right, then when a firm I’ve interviewed with calls me up and says “Sorry, and it made our wives cry when we told them, but we just can’t take the risk of hiring a Mormon right now” I shouldn’t think they really meant that or that it means that there is anything to feelings that being Mormon exposes one to some measure of discrimination?
What do you think? Was the military widow who left town being infantile? When my wife cried on hearing that the firm we had spent time with and where they were planning to hire me decided the risk of a Mormon lawyer in their town, on their business, was too much, was that just foolishness and something that did not happen? When my daughter was bullied into tears by a group of evangelicals, and the teacher realized the reason and walked out of the room so it could continue without her having to watch, that really was not significant?
Or was it?
Let me be serious, though.
I realize that being LDS does not generate as much discrimination as being Black or gay (or as much as being a gay Black LDS) would. I’m aware my youngest child faces much more difficulty because of her Tourettes than she does by being LDS.
I agree with Joanna Brooks and Professor Edward Kimball (Spenser W. Kimball’s son and a law professor at BYU when I was there) that we should let our experiences work to “acknowledge our shared humanity and to foster growth, reconciliation, and understanding.”
But I’m not overly fond of privileged talking faces [referring to some on facebook discussing the editorial at the heart of this particular discussion] who claim that the rest of us are just working out narratives we need in order to find meaning in what are otherwise failed little lives. Sometimes discrimination is real, sometimes there is a basis for a narrative in fact, current fact, and current lives.
[Edited, to clear up mistakes I made in not writing a better, clearer post, with apologies to all who I offended — especially since I should have had much better clarity.]
Wheat & Tares 
I hung out with the lesbians, goths, atheist, theater group, and a few evangelicals when in high school so most people didn’t know I was Mormon until another ward-peer (who I never spoke to) pointed me out.
Theater group – now theres a demographic worth discriminating against!
My wife lost a college teaching job fresh out of graduate school because the selection committee THOUGHT we were LDS. That’s like someone else getting called for a penalty and the ref calls your jersey number by mistake.
So I know discrimination is real, but I do think things are getting better.
I wonder if the bigger issue is that persecution generally increases by groups when they feel they are themselves losing power or social status in absolute terms, and so become really obsessed with keeping their RELATIVE place in the social hierarchy.
Interviewer: “So you went to BYU, eh?”
Me: “Yup.”
Interviewer: “Uh-oh…I don’t know about hiring one of you Mormons!”
Me: (Awkward chuckle)
Needless to say, the interview got weird from there.
—-
Friend’s boss: “I want you to know that I’m going out on a real limb here by bringing you on here. We market ourselves as a Christian law firm and I don’t know about having a Mormon on board. We’ll see how it goes.”
Friend stayed there all of 8 months.
Just for balance__I was born in Utah, and have lived in CA since I was two I am now 66 and have never been looked down upon for being a Mormon. If anything__I got added points. I don’t know if I have ever had someone tell me a story about being looked down upon as a Mormon. I guess others have had different experiences.
Bob, I think it is a very regional thing, all in all. Like being Jewish.
I’ve got the problem in reverse, maybe.
A acquaintance of mine from high school and I just became Facebook “friends” and I learned that he had written a “religious” book and an online publisher has published the book. When he was in high school, he was LDS, but since then has walked away from the church while becoming “an ordinary Christian”. Prior to my learning this, I offered to interview him by email about his book, and thereby came to learn about his leaving the Church. In his book, he refers to his past affilliation with “a cult” and his gratitude to God for helping escape us, and while he never points the finger at us by name, it seems that it’s probably obvious to anyone who knows anything much about the LDS Church (which the Pew report shows may not be all that many people) that it’s the LDS Church to whom he’s referring.
While the tone of my blog is fairly light — I don’t get into heavy discussion of doctrine there — it’s still got “LDS” as part of its title and I’m hesitant now as to whether I really want to promote his book there. I think he’s still a good guy at heart, but I’m still uncomfortable with the idea of putting up the interview.
In short, I’m still on the fence of deciding what to do with it.
I am 60 years of age and have lived my adult life and been with Fortune 500 companies for 35 years. I wear a BYU class ring and have jocularly accepted my role as the designated driver for a number of social settings—so while I haven’t experienced what has been described above I did have one rather telling experience—about 15 years ago, our chief of field investigations came to my office and wanted to terminate one of his field investigators–one of his chief complaints that the investigator was a Mormon bishop and wouldn’t go out afterwards for drink and socializing.
The HR manager present for the discussion, knowing of my heritage, locked his eyes on mine as I laconically responded, “that’s pretty interesting, Roy. My father was a Mormon bishop and so is one of my brothers . . . ” The discussion ended abruptly at that point. So the predisposition is out there.
I have had black and hispanic employees come to me and say they can’t get their heads around knowing I was raised as a Mormon and yet they could tell I didn’t have an issue with their ethnicity. I am waiting for Thomas Monson to take a razor blade to the B of M much like Thomas Jefferson did to the Four Gospels. As my grandchildren of black and hispanic ancestry grow up I am going to wich those passages were gone . . .
I have
Thanks for this. I just shake my head when I read comments about an LDS “persecution complex” that is supposedly all based on things that happened 150 years ago. All I can think is that some of these commenters don’t like to think of themselves as being the target of discrimination so they deny it, or maybe they are just living on a different planet than I am. I have also had people tell me to my face that they didn’t want to hire me because I’m a Mormon, or they won’t allow their children to play with mine because we are Mormon, etc.
#9: E,
So why not move to a ” region” (see #6) that hires you because you ARE a Mormon?
Bob, Well, I like living in Texas and I have three children buried here — I do not feel like abandoning them. Bury a few and you will understand.
I see many parallels with this post and the CES post a couple of days ago. For me, discrimination is wrong and it doesn’t contribute to a healthy society. It’s sad to see people let fear get the best of them. Remember, as I have loved you, love one another.
#66: Stephen:
I am 66. I have buried a lot of people___that was a cheap shot.
Yes, Bob, your comment was a cheap shot. Thanks for apologizing to Stephen.
I agree that Mormons aren’t persecuted as much as we often think, collectively – but I also have seen real persecution and discrimination in my own life. People tend to believe whatever they experience, and those who say it’s all made up probably simply haven’t experienced it. I didn’t experience it in the Northeast US; I did experience it in the Southeast US – sometimes virulently so.
One more simple example:
How many times has anyone here read a newspaper article mentioning that a Baptist / Methodist / Presbyterian / Lutheran rapist is on trial? I haven’t – but I’ve read multiple articles about Mormons who have committed crimes in which the fact that they were Mormon is in the headline itself.
We do have a persecution complex still, and we do tend as a people to overstate it, but that’s largely because we still do face real and obvious persecution. Having said that, as Stephen says, it’s not as bad as homosexuals face – and we collectively are part of that sad reality.
#14: Ray,
You asked me never to write you again. I said I was sorry you felt that way, but agreed. Since then, you have written me three times and I have given no answer.
The statement was made that I lacked understanding because I had not buried loved ones. The called that a cheap shot, but I guess you thought it was fair game(?)
Bob, did not realize you had buried children, my apologies.
I like Texas. Overall the people are good, ths bloggersnackers are great. I may move, but you know the feeling I’m talking about.
Sorry I was raw with you. But I love where I am at. On the other hand, I have always loved where I was at, so if I moved I would probably find reason to love where I moved.
Changing venues as a lawyer has its issues, but I will have to think about your suggestions.
Please be gentle with Ray. He has a good heart and good intent.
Sorry, Bob, I mis-read your comment as a sincere apology. My apologies for a sincerely expressed thanks. I guess it also didn’t translate.
I was at Hill Air Force Base, Utah my last year in the Air Force. As a jet mechanic, they put me on flight line. My entire crew hated Mormons. And they hated me because I was Mormon. I was treated very badly that year on a daily basis. Public humiliation, being framed, the works. I was trained badly (if at all) on an unfamiliar aircraft , which put me at risk for all kinds of trouble.
I went to the commander and Social Actions and got nowhere. I guess the idea was that all religions were protected from discrimination. All but Mormonism. After all, it was me and my religion’s fault that they couldn’t get their beer and porn so easily.
But you know how it is. I was a white male. Who was I to cry discrimination?
I was rescued three months before my year was up. A certain E-6 in Support Section heard I knew how to play guitar. He wanted to learn Stones tunes. So I taught him “Brown Sugar “, “Jumpin Jack Flash “, “YCAGWYW”, “Angie”, and a few others. It was my ticket out of Hell.
The Lord works in mysterious ways.
A large part of bloggernacle writing is about strain in the writers’ relationship with the church or its members. There isn’t much that doesn’t get cast as one more example of the pathologies of the Latter-day Saints.
John, that is an interesting observation.
Glass, bless your heart.
#16&17: Ray and Stephen,
No need for apologies. We are all long time bloggers and know hot buttons can be pushed when the words don’t come out right.
All I was trying to say was that most of Man’s history is about flight from discrimination. My people left Sweden because of Lutheran discrimination, Blackes left the South, Mormons the East for the West. I understand these leaving often came a great cost.
I wonder what the reasons are for the people’s attitude concerning Mormons. Has someone offended them? Do they disagree on the Church’s stance on a particular issue?
I have worked in State government in Utah and am currently working in State government in a southern state. I have not encountered any sort of discrimination because of my religion. In my current job, no one has asked me if I am a Mormon even though I display the outward signs (WoW, being from Utah, etc). I’m not saying that discrimination does not exist, it’s just I have yet to experience it. I guess I will count myself lucky!
Dba,
It’s not going to happen in government or State /Federal jobs other than the military. There are too many safeguards and too much press.
But in the commercial world there are no such safeguards. And when there are, they rarely have teeth.
Thanks Stephen. It actually was alot worse then that. But it would have required a documentary.
I’m in my senior year at a (non-LDS) university and I outed myself in class after people started talking about Mormons. A girl presented on a book written by an LDS author and said that it shifted her opinions on Mormons, as she had previously not had a very good opinions of them. Two other girls laughed and said that no one really did. I raised my hand, said I was Mormon, and talked a little about the Mormon aspects of the book and they were quite shame-faced.
I think that there is a prejudice against Mormons, certainly in some academic circles. No one would dare make similar comments about people who are gay or black or Catholic, but there seems to be a free pass for Mormons and that’s quite troubling to me. It’s worse in some areas than others. Oddly, I live in Tucson, Arizona and while there are many Mormons in the Mesa/Phoenix area and most people are used to it and know enough Mormons not to be freaked out by us, people here do not. I often wait as long as possible to bring it up because I want people to know who I am before they color me with that they think know about my religion.
I very much agree with several other comments. I do think that some of us LDS have a “persecution complex”. But I have also seen others be discriminated against because of being LDS, and I am personally hesitant to announce my religion before getting to know people.
On the other hand, I have seen it work the other way too where if you are not LDS and you live amongst a lot of LDS, there is a lot of networking and job getting that goes on that non-LDS are not a part of.
Also, there is a lot of discrimmination generally still in our country…. sexual orientation, race, gender, age – all of that happens a lot too, so I can’t feel too terribly bad about religious discrimination, or at least not worse about that then the rest of it that goes on.
On top of that, the Church itself is inherently discriminatory, so really, sometimes I feel like it’s hypocritical to get upset about it when we perpetuate it within the organization itself! (just along different lines of discrimination)
KT to say “the Church itself is inherently discriminatory” is like saying “breathing is inherently discriminatory” — says a lot, but not a lot at the same time.
Social networks are a different topic. But there is a difference between not being part of a network and being the target of hostility from a network.
Both are issues. But different.
“I often wait as long as possible to bring it up because I want people to know who I am before they color me with that they think know about my religion.”
Like LL, I also don’t bring up my religion in most settings until people have a chance to get to know me. Ironically, I do the same thing with my education, since I have lived in the Midwest for quite a while now and there is a strong prejudice with lots of people toward Ivy League colleges. If people knew I was Mormon before getting to know me, they’d assume I am FAR more conservative socially than I am; if they knew I attended Harvard before getting to know me, many would think I was a spoiled rich kid and more personally liberal than I am.
So, yeah, like KT says, there’s all kinds of rampant prejudice and active discrimination in our country.
On a lighter note:
One of my co-workers a while ago had on her wall at work the quote, “The greatest work you will ever do will be accomplished within the walls of your own home.” I said to her, “Hey, I know someone who said that – one of the Mormon prophets.” Not knowing I was Mormon, she said to me, “Oh, should I not like it? Do I need to take it down?” (She’s the same person who asked me later, after she found out I’m Mormon, not to hate her – since she is from Carthage, IL.)
Sometimes, it’s painful and hurtful; other times, all you can do is laugh at the ignorance.
My boss was absolutely blown away when she found out I was a Mormon. I couldn’t understand why since I wasn’t hiding it. I had relocated from Salt Lake City to take the job, I clearly didn’t drink alcohol or coffee (she figured it out when I refused tea). She said it was because I was a career woman who was one of the most authentic people she knew and very comfortable in my own skin. She thought Mormon women were all subordinate to men and not allowed to be out of the house, basically.
Hawk, that reminds me of a time when my brother spoke up for someone.
HR asked him “and why are you doing this.”
My brother started giving them a check list of why the guy deserved better, etc.
Nike HR said “oh, it makes sense someone would stand up for him, but why *you*”
The guy was not-white and HR knew my brother was Mormon, so it made no sense to them that my brother would be the one saying something, given the well known intolerance and discrimination all Mormons are known to have …
/sigh
I suppose it goes both ways in Utah… I remember seeing a car in the parking lot of the Utah army national guard armory with a license plate holder that said on the top “R U LDS 2″ and on the bottom it said ” WHY R U HERE”. Kinda led me to believe if I answered no to the top question then the bottom question was directed at me… as in why am I in Utah… that’s the only way I could see it? There’s a lot of good guys in the Utah guard that aren’t Mormon but I got the impression that a lot of promotion opportunities were out there for guys who went to the right church…
There is good reason mormons were run out of the areas they settled in. Just as they make it very uncomfortable for non-LDS in their Utah neighborhoods they made it uncomfortable for their non-LDS neighbors wherever they moved in the early days of the Church. They were not picked on because of their Belief, but because they were terrible neighbors. Coming into a location and telling everyone God gave it to you and it would be yours even if those already living there had to be driven off – what do you expect?
Nothing has really changed other than a ton of lawyers and PR people now. Jesus would not have them. Nor would he pay Tommy & the top dogs. Unpaid Ministry? No. A Real Estate Corporation masquerading as a religion to avoid paying taxes.
Mahonri — I think you have pretty much gone overboard. Though you do parrot some typical anti-LDS lines. Unless you feel that 99% of all churches are real estate corporations masquerading as religions?
When I was a sophomore in college, I lived in the school’s tolerance theme house. Most of my hallmates were LGBTQ or members of the campus GSSA, and very few were religious, and I was kind of worried about people assuming I was intolerant because of the church stance on those issues. However, we were all hanging out one Sunday afternoon, and one of them asked which church I went to. I told him I was Mormon, and he immediately crossed the room and hugged me, saying “Y’all are such good neighbors!”. It was deeply gratifying. That said, a fair few of my friends don’t know I’m Mormon, simply because it doesn’t come up. They know I don’t drink, but since that leaves more beer for them, it’s considered a plus.
I find myself a little shocked to read the quotes in the post, but I’ve never lived outside of the west. We currently live in a small town where Mormons are few, but our kids have not come home with stories of discrimination yet. I did get one anonymous hate letter delivered to my residential mailbox during our first year of living in this community saying that I should wake up to what I belonged to. It also included rationale that my religion was responsible for Warren Jeffs…which it wasn’t clear whether the writer assumed that we were all one denomination or that the issue was my religion was responsible for creating the polygamous sects and the actions of some of their participants. Another shock came when I was sitting at a workplace luncheon with someone who sees me as a physician, works for the same organization as I, and who’s spouse oversees the whole organization. I caught one sentence out of a conversation when it was uttered, ‘I would never vote for a Mormon.” Granted people have their political beliefs that they are entitled to and I know it was never meant to offend me personally, but I was momentarily speechless.
During the Hinckley years an apostle came and spoke to us at BYU- I can’t remember the exact quote but it was along the lines of “right now the church is as popular is as it’s ever going to be- it’s all down hill from here” at the time, (this was just after the second Larry King interview) I didn’t really believe it. However, given the national attention I never ever thought our faith would gain. I believe- it’s only going to get worse.