At Feminist Mormon Housewives, nat kelly had a post regarding religious addiction and disaffection. Of course, the titular “Religious Addiction” part is an allusion to Karl Marx’s idea of religion as opiate of the people (the idea and meaning of which nat investigates further in her article, so you have to read it!)
I don’t know what it was (…probably the fact that nat kelly is awesome), but the article got me thinking about a lot of things, and I had a moment of insight that I wanted to write down, but I didn’t think would be 100% on focus with where she wanted to go with the article. (I nevertheless wrote a comment with my thoughts anyway, because I am a terrible person.)
The first thing I got to thinking about was the idea that sometimes, religion can become a source of pain rather than a painkiller. And isn’t that interesting, especially when contrasted with Marx’s quote? As nat writes:
When the promises of religion start to break down – when religion becomes a matter of guilt, of obligation, of massive cognitive dissonance – congregants leave. We find our painkillers elsewhere – new salves to make this mortal journey bearable. For some, that is in intellectual pursuits, for some it is in destructive substance abuse, for some it is in physical activity, or spirituality outside the realm of religion; for some, it is in alternative communities, like our own pink pages here.
Consider the situation: Marx considered religion to be a way for people to cope with the suckiness of their lives…but for some, religion becomes a source or contributor to that suckiness, to the extent that some people have to disassociate or disaffect to cope.
But that wasn’t the only thing I thought about. One such thing to think about is…why do we need a painkiller rather than to address the source of the pain directly..? but I’ll get to that later.
Economic Suffering and Religion
nat wrote:
Marx of course, atheist that he is, believes that religion should fall away as economic suffering is eradicated. But his perspective still really resonates with me.
But the interesting thing about this is that this isn’t just something that Marx “believes” as an “atheist”. This is an empirical question. Do we see that, as nations or individuals become more economically secure (particularly if central institutions like governments can implement social nets), secularism rises?
Without trying to post data to answer the empirical question (protip: look at Europe), I’ll take a long theoretical detour and say that even the Book of Mormon posits this idea (although from a negative point of view): it’s the pride cycle. As the people become more prosperous, they stray away from religion, which causes their downfall and humbling.
At this point, I tried to work out why theoretically this should work out like that, and interestingly enough, I came up with two processes of thought, based on two very different conceptualizations of religion and faith. After coming up with those two conceptualizations, I realize that one big issue is that people aren’t all on the same page when discussing what religion is for. There is a pessimistic and an optimistic approach. The two approaches may account for why some might look at religion as a painkiller to begin with.
The Pessimistic Approach
When Karl Marx talks about religion being the opiate of the masses, he assumes a pessimistic understanding of religion (but as nat points out in her article, it’s not the same pessimistic understanding that many people misread Marx as having.) The pessimistic grounding for religion is that there is something about our earthly life that sucks. But not only does it suck, it is irredeemable. Maybe it’s the fact that human beings suck and our behavior toward ourselves and each other sucks. (This is what is implied when people say human nature is fundamentally broken, that humans have a sin nature, etc.)
Because earthly life sucks and human beings suck and there’s not much we can do to change it, we will get nowhere by hoping for change here. Instead, what we should try to do is not focus so much on the here and now and instead hope that something bigger and better than we are can make things right or make us right. This is the concept behind salvation, being saved, etc.,
Marx then, views religion as opiate of the people because it is a way for people to dull the fact that humans and life suck. Because the source of the pain cannot be removed, instead we have to hit the symptoms of pain by focusing elsewhere.
In the pessimistic approach, the idea of faith comes because one doesn’t know that there will be a cosmic force to “right” things. Since one cannot trust on humans to do it ourselves, we need to find a way to hope for something better and bigger than us to do it for us. This medicine works as long as we can believe in God enough to find it a plausible place to put our hope in. So, when Nietzsche declares God to be dead, he writes that something has caused a shift in public consciousness so that we are no longer able to reasonably put our hope in the God idea (and with that comes the collapse in the foundation of all sorts of other-world-affirming values.)
The Optimistic Approach
One thing that I see in a lot of discussions is a desire for religions to focus more on the here and now than on an afterlife. But until now, I took for granted that they were arguing from a similar grounding for what the point of religion should be. Now, however, it seems trivially clear that this framing works from a polar opposite foundation.
With the optimistic approach, there is still something about human life that sucks. But the optimism comes into play because instead we do not assume that whatever sucks is irredeemable. In other words, even though humans are jerks to each other, perhaps it won’t take divine intervention alone to make humans be less of jerks to each other (or, barring that, provide comfort for those who were victims in this life.)
So, the hope isn’t for an afterlife to fix everything and provide the justice that was so missing in this life. Rather, the hope is that we can create institutions to improve people and improve society, that we ourselves can practice values that change our nature to something better. We can choose to follow commandments, to repent, and so on. Religion isn’t about dulling the pains of modern life we feel today with an emphasis of an ideal future, but about focusing us laser-like on the pains we feel today so that we are inspired to work at solving these problems. The goal of a religious communities is to provide a stronger arm (like a “corporation”) for solving life problems than individuals or small groups would be able to accomplish.
So the faith is profoundly differently focused. You just have to hope that human nature (or the other problems of earthly life) can be reformed on the ground, so to speak.
…fortunately, I think that Mormonism for the most part starts from the optimistic assumption. After all, the fall wasn’t a total bad thing (as it is seen in many other Christian denominations.) Yet, this “optimistic” assumption has led to controversial issues in the church’s past. After all, it falls in line with the “optimistic” assumption to assume that a nature inclined to a particular “sin” (for example, a notable one has always been “same sex attraction”) can be overcome through will. Now, the church has moved away from such an approach, and instead has a discourse about the issue that sounds pretty pessimistic. (Gay members may or may not be changed in this lifetime, but they certainly should find comfort in the Gospel for their “struggle,” and hope that in the eternities, that Christ can remove their burden.) Anyway, back to the topic…
So, why would religion decline with economic stability? Why wouldn’t it?
From here, both of the religious outlooks, pessimist and optimist, provide slightly different theoretical backgrounds for suggesting when religion would naturally recede or advance.
From the pessimistic approach, religion declines in popularity when people are economically stable because those people no longer have a major source of pain (economic destitution) that needs to be killed. (And they say that money doesn’t buy happiness?) However, even in this system, this doesn’t necessarily mean that religion would be completely vanquished. After all, there doubtlessly are other sources of pain in life than economic ones. You can be well-off or financially stable but still feel pain because everyone you deal with is a jerk. (If human nature is still fallen, then that’s going to be the case regardless of whether people can pay the bills.)
As for the optimistic approach, religion declines in popularity when people are economically stable because the job for religion is “done.” For example, if one job of religion in the “here and now” (assuming that mortal conditions can be changed with elbow grease) is to help the poor, then if and when the poor are helped, then that calls for a Mission Accomplished.
Yet, there could be other things in mortal life, once again, for religion to “improve.”
…but once again, whichever view point you take, what’s interesting is that because humans are humans, there are very real cases where religions succumb to being part of the problem they either wish to address or whose symptoms they wish to numb.
Today’s Questions
One thing that became apparent from several discussions of the topic is that most people dispute the idea of religion being something people ever are “addicted” to. With activity rates as they are (not that those are being emphasized anymore, right?) within the church or within religious groups overall, how can one suggest that people just can’t get their fix? Is this essentially right, or are people turned away from religion in general or the church in specific because of a current, fixable imperfection in religions or the church?
In a related issue, many people disputed the idea of religion as a “painkiller” but instead emphasized its truth claims. One doesn’t go because it is soothing, but because she has an obligation to follow commandments, attend meetings, etc., which often is not soothing at all. Do you agree or disagree?
Do you think that the LDS church stresses the “optimistic” framework of religion more than the “pessimistic” framework? Or can you find elements of both frameworks? What do you personally think?
Do you agree or disagree that religion will fall away as economic suffering is eradicated? Why does religion (or spirituality) continue to be popular, even as it evolves and changes with time?

Just a quick note on Europe, and frankly anywhere else where religion has a strong influence historically but has a decline. There are many factors at play with regard to a decline in religion in an area. One factor is education. And in terms of Europe, another very important factor is the abusive nature of the religion itself. For instance, the Catholic Church in Ireland has just destroyed itself for the foreseeable future because of how it handled the sexual abuse of children by its priests. And of course, historically, the Catholic Church in Europe really hated people (thus why they had the Spanish Inquisition, and so on).
The blame for the decline of a religion’s influence isn’t always on the head of the individual leaving the church. This is actually a fascinating phenomenon within a religion. For instance, I think priesthood meeting sucks in general, and I’ve told local leaders the same, including stake presidents and mission presidents, and area authorities. You know what the answer comes back as: perhaps it is you who needs to change, because clearly priesthood meetings rock! As if the problem is ALWAYS the individual, and the religion and its institutions can’t possibly have any problems. Perhaps though, religions need to face the fact that people see past the bullcrap far better than they think, thus they prefer to leave.
I think as long as there are answers unanswered there will always be a search for the unknown. Or in other words, because someone already claimed there is a china teapot circling around the sun between the Earth and Mars, people will always wonder, how has that china teapot influenced or made better life on earth? Did that china teapot create life here? The existence of the china teapot is unprovable, thus allowing the constant search for the meaning behind whether or not that china teapot is Our Creator. Even when we are wealthy and living well, we will always be searching for meaning if answers remain unfound.
That said, if those who claim to be representatives of the china teapot continue to abuse their position of power and influence, they will find that people will no longer care about whether or not there is a china teapot circling the sun between Earth and Mars. Eventually they’ll search for something else, and maybe find Nirvana.
Heroin is the opiate of the masses, btw, for the way it renders its users passive. When heroin use was at its peak, the Harlem Renascence meant that it was a part of town safe enough that people wandered there alone at night.
Humans (and pigeons!) behave more superstitiously as the uncertainty in their life increases.
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-7933916/Sport-superstition-as-a-function.html
So, it seems to me that religious beliefs wax and wane with prosperity because that’s simply the way we function.
Karl Marx? Seriously? That guys writings have been the source of more evil on the planet than any other person that has ever lived. His writing have ” inspired” Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler, Castro, Kim Jung Ill and so forth
Hundreds of millions have died from his warped philosophies and billions have suffered. Honestly, why would anyone want to read his filth.
Will – I think you are missing the point of the OP.
Andrew S – this is a great question: does religion cause or alleviate suffering, and conversely, does suffering cause or alleviate religion? I think both can be the case, depending on the type of person.
I told you nothing has changed about Will.
Hawk,
I disagree and maybe I am not saying it right, but it is evil philosophies of men that have caused the problems in the world, not God. And Marx is the source (he and Fredric Engle) of most of these evil philosophies.
Nothing God has said or done has resulted in Evil. He is the source of good. It is man twisting his words, or using them in vain that has resulted in Evil. Religion is good or bad depending on how well God’s words are interpreted, understood and implemented by Man.
You’re not saying it right, Will. Whether you like it or not, Marx has profoundly influenced the way people think and view issues and problems. And again, whether you like it or not, a lot of his thinking was spot on. You’re getting distracted by what those who profess to follow Marxist thinking have done and said over the years. That’s like saying, well let’s not listen to Jesus because, hey look his followers tortured people in the Spanish Inquisition. Clearly Jesus is bad!
Will, I don’t think Andrew S was advocating Marx. He was just quoting him. The question of how people engage with religion and how religion impacts people is the point of the OP. I think you get the point – you just don’t get that it IS the point.
Re Andrew-
Wow, a lot to digest in this post. I don’t think I have any answers to your questions. I like that you have the ability to analyze it without being tied to the absolute truth of any of it.
Will,
” That guys writings have been the source of more evil on the planet than any other person that has ever lived.’
Be careful, The Bible has been used in a similar way.
Jeff,
“Be careful, The Bible has been used in a similar way”
Agreed.
As I said, God’s words (via the Bible or Book of Mormon or whatever form) are good or bad depending on how well they are interpreted, understood and implemented by man. It is man that is wrong, not God.
Dan,
I am just looking at the fruits of communism. They are evil, pure evil and Marx and Engels are considered the fathers of Communism. By their fruits shall ye know them and the fruits of communism are the death of hundreds of millions of people. Not hundreds, or millions, but hundreds of millions. Moreover, Hitler was also ‘inspired’ by the Communist manifesto.
Seriously, how can you look at all the atrocities of communism and defend it in any way shape or form. What’s most troubling is the fact that most of these communist leaders killed their OWN people. Mao, Stain and Pol Pot killed over 100,000,000 of their own people.
If Marx’s writings inspired all these lunatics, them it is reasonable to conclude there is something seriously wrong with his writing.
Let’s look at this from the opposite
perspective. Name one country that has thrived under communist rule and has not seen millions of it’s own people butchered by their leader. Ok, maybe Cuba, but Castro doesn’t have millions of kills because there just aren’t that many people.
So if the ‘Old Will’ is standing up to someone who inspired hundreds of millions of people being killed. Then, I guess I’m the same old Will.
Haha, thanks for keeping the discussion fun, everyone.
re 1,
Dan,
I agree with what you say regarding education. I tried to account for that based on the results — higher education tends to lead to better socio-economic results, and when people’s socioeconomic states improve, then religion falls into decline.
I think it’s interesting though, the idea of religion declining because it has a history of abuse. I mean, in other areas (say, the Middle East), you see religions being pretty restrictive and sometimes pretty damaging, but this doesn’t lead to a decline. And even religions that have better track records don’t seem to be “winning.” In fact, it seems that harsher religions tend to do better.
re 2:
Stephen,
But there are situations where you would probably want to be rendered passive. If you are in a situation that is terrible, and there is no reasonable way to improve the base situation, then the alternative (other than just suffering) is to try to kill the pain. I think that Marx addresses (and criticizes) a framework for religion that essentially asserts this about reality (and that’s what I call the pessimistic reality). But is that framework true of all religion? I’m arguing that it is not.
re 3,
parachutewoman,
I think uncertainty is a really important dimension, that covers a lot of things. I wonder whether religion correlates well with risk aversion or risk tolerance? (For example, I am extremely risk averse and uncertainty-averse but I am not religious at all. Am I an odd ball?)
…I think there’s also an extent where religion can cause the opposite effect. As mentioned, even if religion serves as a “painkiller,” sometimes it can instead be a *source* of pain. Similarly, even if religion sometimes serves as a comfort against uncertainty, sometimes it can be a source of that uncertainty (e.g., theology that emphasizes “mystery”.)
Aside comment not directed to anyone in particular:
Sometimes I wish we could develop a BCC Society (which is kinda like a Zion Society, only…not) where we could ignore the hell out of trolls instead of feeding them.
re 5,
hawkgrrrl,
And maybe it could be a feedback loop! I think of people who, because of their religiousness, are MORE aware of the suffering in “the world.” As a result, they find they must put more into their religion. Or think of the tendency for many religious folks to believe the world is going to hell in a handbasket, that morality is in decline, etc., Is it possible that religions sometime stoke this fear, uncertainty, and doubt?
re 6,
Dan,
I’ll give you a protip: when you say things like that, then some people would tell me that nothing has changed about you. Maybe the will (pun only partially intended) is too weak; change is impossible, human nature is fundamentally flawed, and we can only count on divine intervention before people will ever even begin to change?
re 10,
jmb,
I think it’s because I’m just too apatheistic.
re 12,
Will,
I really shouldn’t feed into this, because others have already hinted at things I’m going to say (without much success), but your argument has some major fallacies. Basically, you’re pointing to how people have interpreted Marx’s thoughts, pointing to the worst examples, and then saying that Marx is to blame and that Marx’s thoughts are trash.
However, when faced with something else (religious thoughts as expressed in the Bible), you say that God is *not* to blame for people’s interpretation’s of his commandments.
So, there is a double standard. For God, you simply define God as being someone who can do no wrong. So you reinterpret any wrong that seems to come about from people who follow what they believe to be God’s word as being a misinterpretation or distortion, etc., But you don’t reinterpret any wrong that seems to come about from people who follow what they believe to be Marxist thought as being a misinterpretation or distortion — you view that as the fruits of Marx, rather than the fruits of people who interpret Marx.
I will say there is one difference that could account for things. For one, God isn’t a tangible person. In fact, his existence isn’t even assured. So, it would be tough to attribute all the bad things that happen in God’s name as being from God if he doesn’t even exist.
But even if he does exist, it’s very possible that people do not follow him correctly. But the same is true of Marx.
HOWEVER, as I mentioned before, there is another fault in your argument. You are picking the worst interpretations of Marxist thought and then pinning them onto Marx as if they are all that can come out of Marxist thought.
But what you fail to realize is that Marxist thought is far more expansive than you think. it’s not just “totalitarian regimes that call themselves Marxist” that you get to evaluate. You also need to evaluate all the social democracies of the world — such as those in Europe. And these seem to ALL be countries that are doing very well — better than America in many measures.
I mean, if you could compare America to most European nations, you would see that America bankrupts its people through medical costs and an insurance and health care system that has unequal access and runaway costs. On the other hand, the fruits of Europe’s “socialist” model is that no one becomes bankrupt from health care, health care is far more widely available than in America, and the system is even more efficient (less overhead, less cost per capita) than in America. The fruits of socialism, just on this one dimension, is the preservation of life, whereas the fruits of capitalism, on this one dimension, is the devaluation of life as opposed to profits.
Everything is far more nuanced than you would seem to give credit for in your comment, and so the fallacies you have in your reasoning are pretty easy to pick out.
Now, I do think that Marx didn’t consider some crucial things that he ought have, and so his thoughts are far from perfect. (For example, even if you eliminate private property to reduce the inequality and exploitation that results from it, you don’t, as Marx asserted, eliminate greed…because greed for material possessions isn’t the only kind of greed. You can still have greed for *power*, and it isn’t possible to eliminate power.) But to say that a social body of thought that has influenced over half of the world (including America, because we are NOT a pure laissez-faire anything-goes capitalist economy) is “pure evil” is bound to be missing something or a whole lot of things.
“On the other hand, the fruits of Europe’s “socialist” model is that no one becomes bankrupt from health care”
Except, of course, the countries providing the cradle to grave benefits; and, the more benefits they provide the closer they are to bankruptcy.
By the way, it is America’s following the ‘socialist’ European model that is leading us to bankruptcy. It is the social programs closest to the grave that is killing us financially.
Nice post. It’s one that gets you to think, which, to me, is the sign of a good article.
The part that stuck out to me is: One such thing to think about is…why do we need a painkiller rather than to address the source of the pain directly..?
This is one area where the LDS Church sucks. Having a problem in your marriage – read the scriptures more, pray more, go to the temple more, pay your tithing. Having difficulty understanding a historical issue with the Church – read the scriptures more, pray more, go to the temple more, pay your tithing. Difficulty with that wayward son? Unemployed? Etc. It always seems to be the same answer.
This is where something like Buddhism really appeals to me, for example. You learn concrete ways to understand and interact with the world around you. You understand many things. People often think Buddhism is atheistic, but that’s not necessarily true. When asked about God, Buddha essentially said that the answer is unknowable, and that we should focus on relieving suffering for ourselves and those around us RIGHT NOW. It’s a much different approach than we have in the LDS Church, where our way of handling the “suckiness” of life is perhaps a bit stunted.
And regarding all of the comments about what Marx supposedly led to – Joseph Smith’s writings directly led to Warren Jeffs, and in fact the brand of religion that Warren Jeffs practices is MUCH CLOSER to what Joseph Smith practiced than what we do in our modern LDS Church.
If Marx is evil because of how people interpreted what he wrote, is Joseph Smith evil because of Warren Jeffs?
I just wanted to note that I had an interesting discussion with my temple president last Friday. I asked him several questions. The last question was about helping the poor saints to more easily get their temple ordinances. I told him that when I hear stories of saints in Africa who have to spend half-a-year’s income to travel to the temple, I’m sure the intent is to make me think how lucky I am to be close to a temple and to commit to going more frequently, but instead I feel so sorry that these people had to sacrifice so incredibly disproportionately. I mentioned that given passages such as these:
http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/49.20?lang=eng#19
http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/70.14?lang=eng#13
http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/104.15-18?lang=eng#14
I had a hard time understanding why we can’t do more for them. I mentioned the temple boat idea considered by Pres. McKay and even brought up the idea of a travelling tabernacle with perhaps “temple missionaries” who could run it in these rural areas. Or even use historic precedent of receiving temple ordinances on the mountain while the temple was being built. Finally I suggested that perhaps the church could start a fund to financially help these poor members.
Well, he didn’t seem keen on any of those ideas. He suggested that the poor seem to be more happy and dedicated. I was very confused and asked if he meant to say that their extreme sacrifices were responsible for their apparent happiness. He then said that the average frequency of temple attendance in our temple district was less than once per year, but the [minority group, not mentioning so that it doesn’t give away my location] in the temple district averages more than once per month. At this point I said that Karl Marx suggested that the reason that these poor are more dedicated is that life is so hard for them that the only happiness they can have in life is largely through hope in the afterlife whereas those who are well-off are already comfortable and don’t feel the same need. He didn’t have much to say, just that he doesn’t know why but he knows that it’s our dedication that matters. He didn’t ever give a real explanation for why those ideas weren’t good other than the apparent understanding he had that the poor are more happy, “maybe they have it right.”
I must say he was very kind and had I asked this question first I’m not sure I would have asked the others, but his responses to the other questions showed that he had great empathy for my struggles and the struggles of others at the temple. It was just interesting to see that he had obviously never taken time to consider poverty or how to address it as a problem. It was also nice talking about Karl Marx in a positive manner in the temple. 😉
re 15,
Will,
I like how that’s the only part you address. Nice. In any case, I’ll take your counterargument and run with it.
The fruits of America’s system are both death, personal bankruptcy, and systemic/governmental bankruptcy.
The fruits of Europe’s system are a withering of the state through its financial insolvency (so people have more liberty) and healthy people.
…am I arguing like you now?
re 16,
Mike S,
The interesting thing though is that the LDS church isn’t exactly providing a painkiller for marital problems, wayward sons, and historical issues. It’s providing what it feels is a solution to the problem. It’s just that they are ineffective solutions. As you say, “our way of handling the “suckiness” of life” is perhaps a bit stunted.”
I agree that Buddhism takes a more pragmatic approach generally. But there’s also a pessimistic streak there too…I mean, the idea being that you’re trying to break apart the false construct of ego.
There is a wide gap between what people in China practice as Buddhism vs. people in California. Personally, the California version is more appealing to me. Westernized “new age” Buddhism is a nice hybrid. But it’s also not far from what Jesus taught. And Jesus gave much better advice than “pray, read your scriptures, go to church.”
Andrew,
I think it’s a factor of both an educated mass, and the constant abuse by religious authorities. Because yeah, the Middle East is a pretty good example of where religious leaders abuse their position, yet because of a lack of education, of self-awareness that is greater than the whole, it gets a pass.
Mike S.,
good point.
Mike S,
The Savior’s analogy comparing prophets to trees is extremely relevant in this context:
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them”
I would compare the fruits of the translations and revelations of Joseph Smith to the writings of Karl Marx any day. Likewise, I would compare those inspired by Joseph smith to those that have been inspired by Karl Marx any day. I’d gladly take a few hundred wackos over a few communist leaders who killed millions any day. I’d gladly have that discussion.
For that matter, I would offer the same question that I never got a response from Dan. Name ONE example of a communist country that has actually worked and made its people better.
I can provide various countries that thrived when they adopted a more free market economy, cheif among them would be China and Russia.
Andrew,
I simply don’t have the time to address all of your comments point, by point. I just responded to the ones’ that stuck out the most.
“for some, religion becomes a source or contributor to that suckiness”
Tell me about it: I’ve just been called to be the ward High Priest Group Leader.
Sure, many wards are full of youthful high priests that have served in bishoprics and are now engaged in work in their high priest’s group. Ours is not one of them. The average age of the group is about 25 years older than me. I feel a bit like a lone Jerry Seinfeld in a garden of Uncle Leo’s.
So I’m trying to look at this optimistically. It really isn’t that different from my previous calling of working with the 16-17 year old young men…
Both groups need to have the lesson questions repeated, one because they are goofing off, the other because they can’t hear you.
Both groups are growing hair in new places, one on their chins, the other in their ears.
Both groups are waiting patiently to be able to enjoy sexual intimacy, one for the day that they get married, the other for the resurrection.
Maybe I can move into a condo at Del Boca Vista….
Will,
You’re creating a tangent here, that’s why I am not responding to you. You simply cannot comprehend that much of reality around you and are focused like a laser on that which is really not important. This post is not about communism.
Dan,
Andrew is presenting the philosophies of Marx, and per his statement “Marx considered religion to be a way for people to cope with the suckiness of their lives.” he then asks the question “Do you agree or disagree that religion will fall away as economic suffering is eradicated? ”
In this question he is implying “economic suffering will be eradicated”. It will never be eradicated. As God said to Adam, he will earn his keep by the sweat of his brow. And, in the process experience thorns and thistles and noxious weeds. His commentary further implies the State is the solution, not God. This is communism.
It is the same fantasy thinking found in Marx’s writings AND the foundation for communism. This idea that everyone is actually equal. The idea that everybody can be the same. This thinking in the hands of the wrong people has been extremely dangerous.
Will,
Get a life man. Really.
re 21,
Dan,
Yeah, the way I see it, abuse has very little to do with it (because as mentioned, some abusive religions maintain popularity…and some non-abusive [or ones that move away from past abusiveness] religions fall in popularity quicker than the abusive ones.) Economics and education provide better explanations.
re 23,
Will,
Awww, you don’t have time to address my points, when I made time out of my hectic day to address your points? What a pity.
In debate, they would say that you “dropped” all the points you didn’t address, conceding them all to me. I’m cool with that.
re 25,
Dan,
(Continued pro-tip: you still are responding to him!)
re 26,
In this comment, Will admits that he takes the pessimistic approach to religion.
In this question he is implying “economic suffering will be eradicated”. It will never be eradicated.
So, that’s a reasonable theological statement to make. Unfortunately, we can see countries where economic inequality is decreased, and these countries do end up becoming more secular. We can see that certain concerted economic efforts do improve the standing of people. So while I think there still can be a theological argument that some aspects of humanity are fundamentally broken, the economic part is going to be a problem for religious perspectives that insist that the economic problems of the world are fundamentally unfixable (and as a result, do not seek to fix them.)
And I mean, maybe the problems are unfixable. But then, where the optimistic perspective comes in is in hoping that even if it’s not certain that their efforts will amount to anything, that maybe they will be able to help.
re 27
(You’re still responding to him. He has you on a yoyo.)
Andrew,
I was busy today and had limited time to respond.
As for your comparison between God and Marx, I would say i clearly see things differently than you do. I believe in God. I believe he is real and I believe he is perfect. From your comments, it appears you don’t see him that way.
If you dont see him as perfect, or even real, then that is the issue. That is a huge hump. If we can’t see eye to eye on that one, then any discussion in that comparison wouldn’t be productive.
This is why I focused on the problems with Marx’s writings. I think the guy was crazy. I think those who have followed his writings have demonstrated how flawed his thinking is. His most famous writing is the Communist Manifasto. The Bible of Communism if you will. With this in mind, I offer you the same challenge I did to Dan. Name one communist success story.
You can’t and no one else can either. Pretty compelling evidence his phosophies don’t work.
re 24,
Rigel,
I completely missed your comment here, sorry!
But then I realized my comment would be some variation of “you whippersnapper” and “get off my lawn” (I jest, of course. I don’t have a lawn!)
re 29,
Will,
It’s very clear that you see things differently than I do. You don’t see the fallacious reasoning of your arguments, while I do.
…please note that the fact that you are making flawed arguments isn’t quite the same thing as saying your theology is wrong. It’s just that you don’t seem to have a way to express and defend it in a valid way yet.
So, you believe in God, yes. That’s fine and good. But in a court of opinions, you can’t simply assume his existence and his perfect goodness, and use those base assumptions to waive away all the bad that is done in his name. Alternatively, if you do want to waive away all the bad that is done in the name of God, then at least be willing to also waive away all the good that is done in the name of God.
So, I would challenge that “if [I] dont see him as perfect, or even real,” then you need to make the case for that, instead of simply assuming it to be the case. “If we can’t see eye to eye on that one,” then perhaps that is a call for you to learn how to craft an argument to help us see eye to eye on that.
As it stands now, it leads to your having a tremendous problem in your argumentation. You want to criticize Marx’s writings while taking everything written in the name of God off the table. Or, at the very least, to the extent that you are able to entertain problems to things written in God’s name, you say that it’s because man misinterpreted what he meant…but you do not consider for the second that the same could be true of Marx’s thoughts.
I’ll tell you one thing: socialism. Look at Europe. They all seem to be doing pretty well. I’m not asserting that they are perfect, but in many respects, they are doing just as well as or better than America is doing, and it’s because they have a social democracy system, strong welfare nets, etc., all of these are the legacy of Marxist thought.
You can’t accept these. They don’t even fit in with your worldview. You want to address communism without addressing social democracy. It would be as if I addressed all of the ills of Mormonism, of Christianity, or of theism in general without addressing any of the positives. You would scream bloody murder and insist that all of those were examples of imperfect humans not following God correctly.
Andrew,
First off, I wouldn’t be defending Europe right now, the European Unuon is on the verge of dismantling and the basis of the fight is the very socialism you are defending.
Greece, Spain and to some extent Italy are near bankruptcy. Actually, Greece is bankrupt and has been bailed out by the stronger members, chiefly
Germany. Germany is to the point where they want to get out and if they do, the EU is finished.
Greece is bankrupt because of all the social programs it provides. Unlike Germany, they have refused to make the necessary cuts for solvency because they fear what the people would do that are dependent on the social network.
Herein lies the problem with the thinking of Marx and the whole concept of statism. It ignores reality. It ignores the fact that this life is a test. It ignores the fact that the purpose of life is for us to face challenges. To face opposition. Challenges such as unemployment, death of loved ones, life threating illnesses and so forth. To quote the great prophet Nephi, there must be opposition in all things. It is what forms our character and prepares us for the next life.
The reality is, some people just need to face the fact it is their time to go and not expect everyone else to pay their million (or multi million dollar) dollar medical bill. The reality is God commanded us provide for ourselves all the days of our life. He did intend for us to retire midway through our life and have others take care of us. The reality is challenges such as unemployment and life threathing illinesses can remind us what is important in life and bring us together as families.
Andrew,
haha, good point.
but you notice, Andrew, just how effectively Will has hijacked your post to rail against communism, as opposed to discussing the pessimism and optimism of religion…
re 32,
Will,
Ceteris Paribus, both the European Union and the United States’ government are in poor shape. Turns out that neither’s system seems to be doing the best from a governmental perspective. You point out that Greece, Spain, and Italy are near bankruptcy, but the US isn’t doing so hot debt-wise either. So, it turns out that this isn’t actually a “weakness” of the social net system, because a more market-inclined system doesn’t avoid the same problems.
HOWEVER, from an aspect of the well-being of its citizens, there are several aspects in which European citizens are simply better off than American citizens.
This is something you cannot dispute. You want to bring up how Marx’s thoughts have only led to the death of millions, but you cannot concede that, in actuality, his thoughts have led to a far more equitable situation in many countries.
What you CAN do is state that it won’t last. That’s what you’re doing here:
I think there is value from this perspective. It is stating that “life sucks, and will always suck, but that’s because life sucking is what teaches us to be better people…for the next life.”
This is a hybrid in many ways of my pessimistic model and my optimistic model. I would say that the difference between a person of a pessimistic religious framework and that of one of an optimistic religious framework is that one with an optimistic framework would say that the inequality of life is a challenge for us to try to improve on that inequality — in the here and now. And that when we die, God will look at us based on how we attempted to improve that inequality. That’s how he separates the sheep and the goats.
The reality is a medical bill shouldn’t be a million dollars. And it doesn’t *have* to be. You don’t have to have insurance companies making record profits at the expense of ordinary people who go bankrupt. You don’t need people living in fear of getting sick.
If you’ll notice something, you’ll notice that throughout all of my comments, I’m not stating that the social net model is perfect. My position perfectly accepts that it could use improvement in a few specific places.
But my position is more that NO ONE wants to have a health care system like America’s. In fact, America’s really isn’t a system. It’s more of what happens when you don’t have a system and things just “happen.”
One could say, “Maybe the system is fundamentally broken and there’s no reason trying to improve it.” This seems to be a pessimistic foundation, but it also seems to be what you’re saying.
But here, I’m pointing out that there are many places that *have* improved the system. That there are other problems (notice, the problems you have to mention for Europe are problems for *government*, not problems for the *citizens*) does not affect the fact that clearly, it has improved the economic and social well-being of Europeans.
So, in context of my post, what do you think? As I’ve shown, I think that many of your comments clearly can fit from the post’s perspective, but as you may be able to see from the questions, there are so many other things to consider. Won’t you consider those other questions?
re 33, 34:
Dan,
Actually, what I’ve noticed is that all of his comments (save for maybe a couple…and those were the ones very early on in the discussion) have remarks that fit very clearly on topic. As a result, he hasn’t really hijacked the post at all. Because you have this eternal snake-and-mongoose enemy relationship with him, you can’t see where he’s contributing to the topic, but I’ll summarize it for you:
Will has a religiously pessimistic background. He believes that there are “sucky” things about life that cannot be corrected, and that attempts to correct them will lead to failure (e.g., either personal destruction, as in totalitarian communism, or in the destruction of the state, as in European social democracies). Instead, he believes that all of these sucky aspects of life serve to prepare us…for the next life.
It really fits the pessimistic model VERY well. He’s arguing against religion falling away as economic suffering is reduced because, to him, economic suffering cannot be reduced in the long-term. So it doesn’t even make sense to mention that as a driving factor for anything, much less the decline in religiosity.
In contrast, your comments have followed almost the opposite trajectory. Whereas Will started off topical and has become more topical, you started off on-topic, and have become off-topical. Consider your comment in #27. It consists solely in telling him to get a life. (Notably, whenever anyone tells anyone else to “get a life,” isn’t it interesting how the advice could apply back to the first person?)
Now, maybe in the future, I will conclude that he has me, too on a yoyo, and that we aren’t really getting anywhere on the topic, etc., etc., but now isn’t that time.
Will:
While many of the “communist countries” failed, many of the “communist ideals” are implemented in European and other states. And, in fact, the same ideals form the basis of the United Order – all do whatever they can, all goes into a common pot, the common pot gives back to each person relatively equally – independent of what they actually put in. This is the law of consecration.
And guess what, just like you mention that communist states fail, there are also NO instances of successful communities living the law of consecration or the United Order. So in spite of many people in the LDS Church feeling that these programs were inspired of God, they failed just as miserably as anything based on Marx.
And why? Comments like these:
show that WE don’t really have the right attitude ourselves. In all of this, I think Dan’s comments are much closer to the law of consecration than Will’s.
Re: America’s really isn’t a system. It’s more of what happens when you don’t have a system and things just “happen.”
There are two socialized medical program’s in the US and neither seem to be what anyone wants. One is the VA healthcare system. I hear of ongoing complaints of VA patients about difficulty with access, long waits for procedures, and frequent turnover. Is there any reason we shouldn’t expect this to become ‘America’s Plan’ with the new health care act?
The Indian Health Care system is the other. It currently funds health care per individual at a much lower rate than annual average health care costs per person. Access and provider turnover remain problematic depending on the efficiency of the administration and the remotness of the location. Many tribes are supplementing the funding of their health care with their own tribal revenue because of the inadequacy of the government fulfilling their treaty responsibilities.
Stanford University has created a Chronic Disease Self-Management Program that involves community workshop series. It has been estimated that during 4 years of these workshops, participants avoided 557 emergency room visits and 2783 hospital days.
An increasing amount of health care in the future can be done without doctors. Pharmacists can do most chronic diabetes med ajustments. Wellness coaches can help with chronic disease management. Childhood nutrition counseling can be done by nurses or nutritionists.
One doctor in our community has gone to a cash practice, and by not having to pay for staff to do all the paperwork related for insurance, you can see her for a 3rd to a 5th of what the fee used to be.
For starters on health reform, I would like to see school lunches have higher mandates for nutritional standards. Kids will learn to tolerate or like what they are offered repeatedly. I have heard that, in fact, the Obama administration is making this happen. Now if kids could get more outdoor and less electronic entertainment time nationally.
re 37,
Rigel,
That actually is a good point. And I would argue that medicare is possible a third system that features some of the “socialist”-like characteristics of some other countries’ systems.
One thing is for certain: there are definitely suboptimal ways to try to “fix” a health care system.
For starters on health reform, I would like to see school lunches have higher mandates for nutritional standards. Kids will learn to tolerate or like what they are offered repeatedly. I have heard that, in fact, the Obama administration is making this happen. Now if kids could get more outdoor and less electronic entertainment time nationally.
These would definitely be good.
Andrew:
Very good post. One thing that strikes me in mitigation of what Will is saying is this: if Marx is proceeding from a pessimistic viewpoint about human nature (and particularly how that human nature drives the economic development of society), it seems to be a pretty fundamental theoretical flaw NOT to anticipate how that greed might impact the implementation of communism itself.
That’s like knowing e=mc^2, yet setting the atom bomb off from 50 feet away. Stupid.
By the way, Jesus was an optimist.
re 39,
FireTag,
But that’s only if Marx is proceeding from a pessimistic viewpoint of human nature. It seems to me that he characterizes religion thusly, but since he doesn’t have that pessimistic viewpoint, he thinks that the ills of society can be reduced or eliminated. And that’s why he criticizes religion the way he does.
I disagree, Andrew. Human nature is not improvable in the communist manifesto. It is the unchanging self-interest of the class members that causes a completely predictable evolution through the rise of capitalism and its ultimate replacement by communism. If, for example, the capitalists became less greedy, the rise of the communists would not be inevitable. In other words, the same theoretical flaw that leads to the rise of “social democracies” also leads to the rise of the worker totalitarians. For that matter, it suggests that social democracies need not be a stable end state, but can eventually collapse into economic disaster as instabilities in political power rise. (I think you noted these kinds of “political” greed in an earlier comment.)
Mike,
The City of Enoch was a success and here is why, Those that gave did so out of love, not out of fear, obligation or duty. Also, there were no moochers among them.
The reason communist or socialist programs fail is that they deal with non-celestial beings. They fail because if greed, laziness, envy, pride and so forth.
Mike/Andrew;
As I have said numerous times America is in decline because of our social programs.
re 41,
FireTag,
That’s a good point.
re 42,
Will,
…are you talking about the City of Enoch, or Galt’s Gulch.
Anyway, I suppose it is consistent to criticize all social programs, whether they are ineffective (as in the US) or rather effective (in many European nations.) In any case, it doesn’t seem like European nations are failing because they deal with non-celestial beings. Rather, they are having issues because their various programs are not connected to a pricing mechanism, so the government can “undercharge” its citizenry for the services it provides.
I don’t know if I am just encouraging Will’s threadjack, but….
Will,
You can’t just point to Greece and Italy as proof of European social policy failure without addressing the success and stability of countries like Sweden and Finland. And I say that as a fairly conservative Republican.
you ARE encouraging Will’s threadjack. Because after all, EVERYTHING is about communism. We’re under attack!!!!
Hpw does the fact that the US has been paying the majority of Europe’s military bills for the past 60 years factor into the equation of the functionality of European social democracy?
I ask this honestly. I lived in Germany for three years and I have Euro-envy on many levels. But would their system work without our huge assistance along these lines? Would the US be able to afford socialism better if someone ( say, China) served as the majority of our military and was paying for it?
re 45
Dan,
OK, Dan, I concede. We’ve been successfully and thoroughly threadjacked.
Sorry if I was part of that, but isn’t my comment worth any acknowledgement?
Glass Ceiling,
I actually think what you said is pretty insightful, but I’d rather discuss the original topic from here on out…
(I’ll be a little more open with my last comment. What I mean was: I have also come to the conclusion that we are basically providing a service for the western world of being the military defense…but my question would be…would it be possible for us to specialize in defense and instead “import” health care from other nations? I guess health care isn’t quite as exportable as military protection is, though.)
Andrew,
That was equally insightful on your part.
Glass Ceiling,
When you say the US was paying the majority of Europe’s military bills, could you be more specific about what that actually means? Is it country by country? So are we paying 51% of the military cost of Germany’s military? Are we paying 51% of the military cost of Romania’s military? Or are you suggesting that our military bases in Europe provide up to approximately a “majority” of Europe’s defense? What exactly do you mean by the US is paying the majority of Europe’s military bills, and how do you differentiate between countries where we don’t have any kind of military presence, but which also have very strong social programs, like, say, Finland.
I bring that up because currently, the defense budget costs of the European Union (27 countries combined) is $400 billion. The defense budget costs of the United States is $1.4 trillion. For the United States to currently front over half the cost of Europe’s defense, it would have to be more than $400 billion toward just those 27 countries, (not to mention all the other European countries not in the EU). And that’s just right now. Since Europe has been quite economically strong over the past 50 years (since about ten years after the end of WWII), I just cannot see how one could claim the United States fronts over half of the costs of the military defense of all of Europe. Maybe in our utter distaste of all things Europe, we imagine them weaker than they really are, because they’re not as adventurous as we are in striking out at whoever they want whenever they want, thus somehow they must not actually be spending anything on their military, and are constantly under the protective wing of the mighty America. Surely the only reason their social programs work is because America provides more than 50% of their defense costs, so that Europe can spend the rest on their social programs.
Of course this is ridiculous. According to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_European_Union
the members of the European Union spend 1.63% of their GDP on military costs. America spends 4.7% of its GDP on military costs. Maybe they’ve figured out that it is better to spend their money on providing services to their poor as opposed to spending their money finding better ways to kill poor people in other countries…
Dan,
I have no way to prove your numbers. Nor do I care to really . But I was in Germany in the 90s in the Military. I talked with my cohorts, as well as Germans regularly in this subject. They loved us because we were a major asset to their defense, as well as a residual boost to their economy both in defense and because soldiers like to spend their money, and come back and do it again years after they left.
One thing I learned while there, up until the late 80s, if a person were to climb the flagpole at any American base in Germany, they would see the flagpole of another American base. But we still have a major presence there, as well as the rest of Europe.
But the Cold War was real. We poured money into Europe for 40 years before we had any sort of drawback. We also helped rebuild after WWII as well as virtually financing it. It is safe to say that the most successful experiment in socialism the world has known has and is heavily subsidized. It’s simply a fact, if facts matter.
I love the idea of social programs in this country to, Dan, but our government has set us up for failure at every turn and corporations hold us hostage.
Btw, we have the American model of socialized medicine already in this country. It’s called the VA. Go visit sometime. They do pretty good in high-profile States like Texas. But it’s a ‘Jacob’s Ladderesque nightmare ‘ elsewhere. And that is no lie. I know it is tempting to assume that all we need is socialized medicine and all will be well. Not in fascist crony-capitalism though, Dan.
We’d have to break our current system to make it work. And a few parties and fire some folks first. Any ideas on how to do that?
Add a few parties ….
Dan,
Are you also implying that Europe would not be negatively affected if they were our basic Cold War protection , and that their presence would not assist our budget in any way?
Glass Ceiling,
See, you’ve backed away from your first goalpost, which is that the US provided for a “majority” of Europe’s defense. No doubt we assisted Europe’s growth, but to claim America provided more than 50% of Europe’s military defense is ridiculous. Europe is far wealthier than we give them credit for. They just don’t think military adventurism on America’s scale is worth the opportunity cost. This could be for several reasons. 1. There’s already a superpower that desires to handle the world’s security issues. 2. Historically, Europeans have learned military adventurism is just simply not worth it anymore. To claim though that Europe can’t defend itself more than half of the total cost of the defense for Europe is ludicrous.
No doubt America’s Marshall Plan provided the stimulus Europe needed to get back on its feet after one of the most destructive wars in world history, but beyond, say, the 1950s, Europe didn’t need America’s support in the way you are implying. We haven’t been subsidizing their economies and their military since just after the end of WWII, at more than 50%. We may have up to a point, but Europe’s economies rebounded dramatically after the end of the war. They had systems in place that could easily handle a massive recovery. The push for socialized health care had nothing to do with how much aid they received from America. In Britain, they decided as a country that no one would go hungry again in their country. They would have done this no matter how much aid or not they received from America.
Essentially Glass, not everything good has America’s touch. And good things can happen without America’s help.
As for your #56, who knows. I doubt Europe would have spent as heavily on military as America had because they had a different vision for the world. It’s not a matter of your way or the highway. There are many different ways a nation could spend its money and prioritize things. We in America think it’s better to spend money killing poor people in other parts of the world than to provide for the poor within our borders. We can’t claim we are followers of Christ then.
Finally, Europe’s economic strength is definitely tied to America’s spending habits, but not in the way you are thinking. Europe is a capitalist haven, and they sell a whole bunch of things to us. Conversely, we sell a whole bunch of things to Europe. Private business. The private market between Europe and America is the strongest and most closely tied in the world. If America’s economy goes down, so does Europe’s. If Europe’s economy goes down, so does America’s. There ARE strong ties between Europe and America. But it has nothing to do with governmental intervention. Europe is full of private businesses, among the biggest and strongest in the world, and they do great business here in America. American businesses do great business in Europe. Amazingly, capitalism works in countries that provide social services toward its poor. But no country, no matter how much or how little services can provide for its poor, will survive if their banking sector is full of greedy bastards who steal from the poor to give themselves more money. This is clear in America, and clear in Europe. Don’t blame the poor for the greed of the wealthy, who are actually the ones destroying America’s and Europe’s economies. As if poor people can bankrupt the whole system when, combined, their wealth equals only to about 10%. What utter idiocy.
and now, back to talking about the optimism and pessimism of religion…oh and Communism is gonna get us! AAAAACCCKKK!!!!
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph
An amazing graph that shows that the bottom 90% of Americans own 25% of the money in America. As if those who own only 25% of the pie can bankrupt the whole system…
utter idiocy.
Dan,
My sources were military officers. YOurs was the internet. Both are suspect. But if we left Europe tomorrow, I personally believe Europe would have to pony up alot of $, and we would suddenly have a lot of $ for other things in doing so. I’m not the only person who thinks so.
Glass,
There’s a difference between the economic stimulus of American soldiers in bases stimulating the local economy and saying that Americans have forked over over half of Europe’s defense spending since World War II. Do you see the difference?
If the American bases in Europe were to close tomorrow, pack up and go back to America, the local economies would obviously suffer, but to believe the rest of the country, or the rest of Europe would somehow suffer greatly is just plain poppycock bull. It seems you and your military officer sources have no idea about European economies.
Dan,
I know what you are saying, and it makes sense. Still, I was there 15 years ago …and much more money was going into Europe before then, during the cold war.
I agree that 50% is probably not the number now, but in the cold war it is believeable.
And those were rhw days that their medical system took root.
But I agree with you, Europe has a better thing going. And it is very discouraging for the likes of us.
Glass Ceiling,
This link, if it works right should show you the GNI of America, United Kingdom, Germany and France from 1980 to the present. As you’ll see, the economic growth of all four countries was on a similar plane, with the US—by this point, the richest country on the planet—higher than the other three, but not to a degree to which the other three could not handle their own defense without significant aid from the United States. For comparison, just click on Russian Federation to see just how much lower the Russians were than Germany, France, and United Kingdom, to gauge the economic power of those three Western European powerhouses. Obviously the Russian Federation numbers only begin since about 1990, and I can’t find comparable numbers for the Soviet Union, but from what I’ve learned about the economics of the Soviet Union, they’ve always overplayed their economic hand, and were never stronger than Germany or France.
Or maybe compare GDP Per Capita over the years, which goes back to 1960. You’ll see here that those three major Western European powers were doing just fine in comparison to America and to Russia.
In the end, Glass, you need to prove your charge. If you can’t prove that the US provided more than half of Europe’s defense, you probably shouldn’t make that kind of claim. It demeans Europeans, whose economies have been quite strong over the past 50 years, and will continue to remain strong as long as they don’t allow their bankers to get too greedy.
Next time I’ll do that. I was in a hurry when I wrote it. And again, I had spoken with military officers in Germany years ago.
What I don’t get is how anecdata ever backs up the claim that over 50% of Europe’s defenses were provided by the US. I mean, if you concede that all you have to go by are military officers, then it seems like the case is closed.
There were also a few German citizens. But evidently everyone was ignorant.
It doesn’t matter. We are stationed there and there we will stay.Europe has its socialism, we have notions of what ours may be. For many years in Europe , each nation had its sovereignty which is more than we can say for our 50 States. This has helped their cause and hurt ours. The Euro currency has taken a lot of their sovereignty, and it shows.
But we could learn from German manufacturing models. And France’s 7 parties …and the fact that citizens take to the streets every time one of their 15 or so paid religious holidays is threatened.
What I don’t get is how data ever backs up the claim that over 50% of Europe’s defenses were provided by the US.
Glass is right on a couple of metrics. The nuclear and heavy weapons portion of our commitment is very expensive.
Andrew, you have no idea of how condescending and insulting your comment “all you have to go by are military officers, then it seems like the case is closed” reads.
Glass — my family was stationed at Ramstein, lived in Landsthul about a five minute walk from the base.
Stephen,
What’s your source for this?
I bring that up because currently, the defense budget costs of the European Union (27 countries combined) is $400 billion. The defense budget costs of the United States is $1.4 trillion.
Good question as to how much of that is stationed in Europe or allocated to European theatre defense, including strategic arms.
Guess the real question is what targets do we have for strategic arms other than Russia and China and what percentage of the throw-weight is allocated to each of those.
Used to be about 90/10 or so I suspect …
Also, what credit do you give economic multipliers to “cost.”
That would make for an interesting analysis all on its own.
Long time ago you would have calculated roughly a third to Europe, a third to the Pacific, a third to the U.S. Multiplier effect to local economies would only be about 4 (given how self contained U.S. bases are) in Europe, around 2 or lower in Asia/Pacific.
Realizing, of course, that strategic assets at home do not have any multiplier in the theatre country (an ICBM targeting Russia but based in North Dakota, even if it is allocated to theatre defense doesn’t affect the economy on the other end).
Glass sounds right on target.
Dan, I guess you are contesting that heavy weapons (MBTs and the like) and nuclear weapons, such as ICBMs are cheap.
Ok. If you say so. How much would you put the cost for each of the 500 or so tactical nuclear weapons we had in Europe? I’m amazed you don’t think that they are very expensive.
But we probably differ a great deal. I think we need to cut military spending by 75%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams for more.
Pricing is variable.
To quote one source “cost about $65 Million with basic equipment. With extra armor, weapons, and sights it can cost up to $120 Million.”
On the other hand, the basic frame is only US$6.21 million (M1A2 / FY99) (which you can find on the wiki).
For an MBT that isn’t that expensive, but it is still a lot of money. I think of them as “very expensive.”
Oh, and the $6.21 million price tag is probably a lot more accurate than the 120 million one, I hope. 😉
Among the US Army’s major problems in fielding things like the MBT is that it takes a lot of soldiers over the lifetime of an MBT, and each soldier incurs personnel costs over THEIR OWN lifetimes. As the jargon puts it, there is a lot of tail for the teeth.
Many of the military’s development budgets are in areas that allow systems to work with smaller logistical tails. For example, we probably appreciate the speed provided by IT on the battlefield in terms of combat effectiveness, but probably don’t realize the savings in personnel reductions — yet that can often be a decisive consideration when the DoD writes system specifications.
As to the defense of Europe, it isn’t just the stuff that was stationed in the Fulda Gap. You’ve also got to include protection of sea lanes (which is why France continued to have an aircraft carrier) and force projection into supply sources. (That is why Europe was so concerned about Libya and not so much about Syria.)
Another big part of the cost of nukes, which was all about defense against European powers throughout much of the cold war, is the weapons complex itself. Most of the National Labs, for example, only existed because of their relationship to the production, testing, deployment, disposal, and cleanup of the nukes. When the cold war ended, they all went scrambling around for new missions like 5 year olds playing musical chairs.
Yeah, the defense of Europe cost, and still costs, the US a lot.
Stephen,
Thanks for the stats. And the backup.
I was at Spangdahlem Air Base from ’95-’98. Jet engine mechanic. It is located 20 minutes from Bitburg, and an hour from Trier (Augusta Trevororum in the Roman map in your Bible. The oldest city in Germany and was a major Roman settlement in Christ’s day.)
I’ve been to Ramstein and Landsthul more than once. When were you there?
And thanks Firetag.
re 68:
Stephen,
I guess my issue is, I *still* have intuitions that Glass Ceiling describes a true phenomenon, but anecdotes aren’t going to show it. Hence, the “anecdata” that you misquoted as “data.” The idea of “anecdata” is a spin off the quote, “The plural of anecdote is not data.”
Nevertheless, I can see how it would come off quite the wrong way, so I apologize. I should just accept that there’s little chance that we are ever going to get back on topic ever again and stop passive aggressive raging on people 😉
All,
As to my original question, I’d like to ask it again:
Does the US’s constant contribution to Europe’s continental security for the last 65 years skew the percieved success of socialism in Europe, particularly socialized medicine? And can the US expect ever be able to create a similar socialized medical system? Or would we get the ‘VA nightmare? “
Anyway, since I’m being a collosal butt tonight…goodbye y’all. じゃね
Andrew,
Sorry to thread-jack. It was no originally intended. But it is interesting, I think. IThis stuff crosses my mind daily. “Who’s better, us or them?” And on and on.
Glass,
no, it doesn’t. Because Europeans made a choice at the end of World War II. They made a choice to never have anyone go hungry again within their borders. It didn’t matter the cost. And frankly, the condescension of America is greater than the cost Americans give to Europe’s defense, and frankly I would prefer Americans leave Europe’s defenses to Europeans. They have the money and the resources. It seems we have forgotten here in America just how powerful European military forces can get within a matter of a year or two.
yes, we can. but we have a significant number of people in America who call themselves Christian, but who cannot seem to find it in their hearts to create programs in this country to care for the poor. They think it money better spent killing poor people elsewhere in the world.
Stephen,
Are you privy to what I assume are classified documents that detail the costs of nukes in Europe? Personally I am not familiar with how many of American nukes are still in European countries, nor with the costs associated with their presence there, if they are there. Perhaps those costs equal to $400 billion dollars annually (which is the annual defense cost of the European Union, the 27 countries of the EU). If that is the case, we’re vastly overspending on keeping nukes in Europe. Particularly since the total overall “war budget” for America is $1.4 trillion. Spending $400 billion annually just to keep nukes in Europe makes no sense. Or, spending $400 billion annually to keep our military presence in Europe, complete with “protecting shipping lanes” and all the rest…seems overkill. Then again, America spends more on its military budget than the rest of the world combined. So maybe we know overkill.
I want cold hard numbers. Show me from America’s budget how you get to American spending $400 billion annually on “Europe’s defense.” That’s just the EU. Add in the European countries not in the EU. If you’re going to continue the ridiculous assertion (made by some American military officer in the 1980s who probably didn’t know European budgetary matters), that America provides more than half of Europe’s defense, then back it up with actual numbers. Show me how you get to $401 billion.
Dan,
It was several officers in the mid 90s,several local Germans, and a History Professor who happened to bean American living in Germany at the time. But even I don’t completely trust those folks. But I don’t completely discount them either.
About government, I would only even begin to support a large socialist model if we had at least five legitimate parties…and if corporate lobbyists no longer ran the show.
I would prefer State’s rights. If California wants to be socialist, great. If Idaho wants to be libertarian, let them. CHOKE the obviously corrupt federal branch. Europe has had this for long enough to know that it works. But they are swiftly losing their sovereignly as well. (Gee, wonder why.)
Hey. Btw, Dan, do you happen to live in Pueblo. CO?
But I would vote for anyone who said they’d drastically raise taxes in any and all corporations who pack up and leave for developimg countries. Outsourcing is the Devil’s handmaiden.
Glass Ceiling,
I’d love to see proportional representation here in America and making illegal gerrymandering. I’d also love to see the House of Representatives increase in size to about 1200 or so. That would represent the equivalent increase in population since the last time the size of the House was increased. Makes it harder for lobbyists to corrupt lawmakers when there are so many. I don’t have a problem with states wanting to do their own thing on some matters. Currently Massachusetts has universal health care, and it seems to work relatively well for them. I hear Vermont is going toward a single payer system. Sounds good to me.
Separately, the difference between America’s federal system and Europe’s EU is that the countries of the EU are still independent countries with their own governing systems, whereas America was founded as one Union of local states. Each state was never to be equal with a nation-state. I challenge you to find where any of the Founding Fathers considered each state a separate entity on equal part with a nation-state like France. This was just not the case. On the other hand, I can point to you numerous occasions where the Founding Fathers pressed for the citizens of America to forego their local ties for the larger union. George Washington said this in his Farewell Address:
Carefully guarding and preserving the union of the whole. The states were no longer “independent” but of the one larger nation called the United States of America. Thus on some matters states can decide for themselves what they want to do, on other matters, it is a question of the nation as a whole. It’s an amazing, complex system that provides such freedoms that the rest of the world is envious of what we have here and have tried (as in the EU) to replicate it some way. But the EU is not like America. For there to be a comparison, it would be like America, Canada and Mexico teaming up to become the NAU (North American Union), of three different countries under one banner.
So on the matter of health care, as long as companies cross state boundaries, they are liable to federal law, thus for a health care system that works efficiently, it should be one that is organized and controlled federally, rather than at the state level. Unless we create a law that prohibits health care companies from shifting around states.
Thank goodness for federalism, or blacks would never be free from discrimination in the South…
The Federalism prior to 1865 was what Washington wanted. When the Civil War ended, the Federal Government could’ve outlawed slavery without raping States rights otherwise, as it did. But that would have been far too altruistic. Instead, President Andrew Johnson gave the South the basic powers it had before the war…and to the same people who started the war in the first place, the planter class. This, of course gave us apartheid in the American South for the next hundred years.
Yes, God bless the Federal Government. And God bless us every one. Absolute power is always a good thing. Absolutely. Obviously.
Say nothing for the war adventures the Federal Government has gotten us into about every 20 years or so of our existence. We have fought some just wars, but there have been less than five.
okay, you were reasonable, now you’re ridiculous. I’m done. Go, live in Arizona with that kooky Jon.
Dan,
Power corrupts. Why give them more?
Btw, is it possible that socialism writ small actually works, such as England, France, or Belgium? But that it works badly writ large? Russia?
Canada is s bad example of a large socialist nation. It is very large with nobody in it. So its sortof a series of small nations.
It’s all about sovereignly and the actual rights of the people. Left Americans like to say that “we are the Government. ” Personally, I’d sooner believe in Santa Claus. How do we own the government in any real way? Because we can vote? Yay, we have the one day privilege of choosing one of two pre-picked corporate whores! Because this is MY country, for the people!
Turn on your TV and you’ll see who owns the country.
Dan, we probably have more in common than not ideologically. I just do not think that larger federal government is a panacea, in a large country. Euro socialism is a very good thing. But each nation is the size of one of our States. And they get a lot of help.
Btw, what’d I say that was so silly in my last one?
In France, the government fears its people. In America, the opposite is true. In France, the people generally get what they want from the government. In America, the opposite is true. So Dan, just keep on believing I am wrong about that. Be a good little lemming. And drink up your koolaid like a good boy.
From the dialogue since I left it looks like the words of President Benson are prophetic..
“From the fifth grade through the fourth year of college, our young people are being indoctrinated with a Marxist philosophy, and
I am fearful of the harvest.”
It looks like we are harvesting..
Will,
Socialism is inevitable. Fascism and totalitarianism are not. Maybe.
GC,
Unfortunately, you are right. We are already living it. It will bring our nation economically.
down economically
Capitalism us a great experiment. I just sometimes have the rogue thought pass through my head:
“Does Capitalism only work well with brand new nations landing on a virgin continent, and burgeoning Empires taking over primtive brown people? What happens after the buffalo at home are dead, and the primative brown people around the word have their master’s degrees? “
…around the world…
“What happens after the buffalo at home are dead, and the primative brown people around the word have their master’s degrees?”
America wasn’t virgin. Smallpox in a population never exposed to it was a very effective WMD. So, I suppose when all the “yellow” people get their masters degrees, we’ll see how they do with “state capitalism”.