God will tell you all that you need to know.
He will not always tell you all that you want to know.
These are a few simple suggestions for people who are willing to make an experiment. You can discover for yourself the most important and practical thing any human being can ever learn-how to be in touch with God.
All that is needed is the willingness to try it honestly. Every person who has done this consistently and sincerely has found that it really works. Before you begin, look over these fundamental points. They are true and are based on the experience of thousands of people.
1. God is alive. He always has been and He always will be.
2. God knows everything.
3. God can do anything.
4. God can be everywhere-all at the same time. (These are the important differences between God and us human beings.)
5. God is invisible-we can’t see Him or touch Him-but God is here. He is with you now. He is beside you. He surrounds you. He fills the room or the whole place where you are right now. He is in you now. He is in your heart.
6. God cares very much for you. He is interested in you. He has a plan for your life. He has an answer for every need and problem you face.
8. God will help you do anything that He asks you to do.
9. Anyone can be in touch with God, anywhere and at any time, if conditions are obeyed
These are the conditions:
– To be quiet and still
– To listen
– To be honest about every thought that comes
– To test the thoughts to be sure that they come from God
– To obey
So, with these basic elements as a background, here are specific suggestions on how to listen to God:
I . Take Time
Find some place and time where you can be alone, quiet and undisturbed. Most people have found that the early morning is the best time. Have with you some paper and pen or pencil.
2. Relax
Sit in a comfortable position. Consciously relax all your muscles. Be loose. There is no hurry. There needs to be no strain during these minutes. God cannot get through to us if we are tense and anxious about later responsibilities.
3. Tune In
Open your heart to God. Either silently or aloud, just say to God in a natural way that you would really like to find His plan for your life-you want His answer to the problem or situation that you are facing just now. Be definite and specific in your request.
4. Listen
Just be still, quiet, relaxed and open. Let your mind go loose. Let God do the talking. Thoughts, ideas, and impressions will begin to come into your mind and heart. Be alert and aware and open to every one.
5. write!
Here is the important key to the whole process. Write down everything that comes into your mind. Everything . Writing is simply a means of recording so that you can remember later. Don’t sort out or edit your thoughts at this point.
Don’t say to yourself-
This thought isn’t important;
This is just an ordinary thought;
This can’t be guidance;
This isn’t nice;
This can’t be from God-,
This is just me thinking, etc.
Write down everything that passes through your mind.
Names of people;
Things to do;
Things to say;
Things that are wrong and need to be made right.
Write down everything.
Good thoughts-bad thoughts;
Comfortable thoughts-uncomfortable thoughts;
Holy thoughts–unholy’ thoughts;
Sensible thoughts–crazy thoughts.
Be Honest! Write down everything-. A thought comes quickly, and it escapes even more quickly unless it is captured and put down.
6. Test
When the flow of thoughts slows down, stop. Take a good look at what you have written. Not every thought we have comes from God So we need to test our thoughts. Here is where the written record helps us to be able to look at them.
a) Are these thoughts completely honest, pure, unselfish and loving?
b) Are these thoughts in line with our duties to our family, to our country?
c) Are these thoughts in line with our understanding of the teachings found in our spiritual literature?
7. Check
When in doubt and when it is important, what does another person who is living two-way prayer think about this thought or action? More light comes in through two windows than one. someone else who also wants God’s plan for our lives may help us to see more clearly.
Talk over together what you have written. Many people do this. They tell each other what guidance has come. This is the secret of unity. There are always three sides to every question-your side, my side, and the right side. Guidance shows us which is the right side-not who is right, but what is right.
8. Obey
Carry out the thoughts that have come. You will only be sure of guidance as you go through with it. A rudder will not guide a boat until the boat is moving. As you obey, very often the results I convince you that you are on the right track.
9. Blocks?
What if I don’t seern to get any definite thoughts? God’s guidance is as freely available as the air we breathe. If I am not receiving thoughts when I listen the fault is not Gods.
Usually it is because there is something I will not do:
- something wrong in my life that I will not face and make right;
- a habit or indulgence I will not give up;
- a person I will not forgive;
- a wrong relationship in my life I will not give up;
- a restitution I will not make;
- something God has already told me to do that I will not obey.
Check these points and be honest. Then try listening again.
10. mistakes
Suppose I make a mistake and do something in the name of God that isn’t right? Of course we make mistakes. We are humans with many faults. However, God will always honor our sincerity.
He will work around and through every honest mistake we make. He will help us make it right. But remember this- sometimes when we do obey God, someone else may not like it or agree with it. So when there is opposition, it doesn’t always mean you have made a mistake. It can mean that the other person doesn’t want to know or to do what is right.
Suppose I fail to do something that I have been told and the opportunity to do it passes? There is only one thing to do. Put it right with God. Tell Him you’re sorry. Ask Him to forgive you, then accept His forgiveness and begin again. God is our Father-He is not an impersonal calculator. He understand us far better than we do.
11. Results
We never know what swimming is like until we get down into the water and try. We will never know what this is like until we sincerely try it. Every person who has tried this honestly finds that a wisdom, not their own, comes into their minds and that Power greater than human power begins to operate in their lives. It is an endless adventure. There is a way of life, for everyone, everywhere. Anyone can be in touch with the living God, anywhere, anytime, if we fulfill His conditions.
When man listens, God Speaks.
When man obeys, God Acts.
This is the law of Prayer,
God’s plan for this world goes forward through the lives of ordinary people who are willing to be governed by Him.
That sounds an awful lot like Joseph Smith when he talked about revelation and prayer, except for some of the obvious differences (e.g. the nature of God). This is an essay on prayer from the 1930s (when copyrights still expired) that was part of what led to A.A.
When you look at this, when you think about it in context with what you have learned at Church and with your own experience, how does it affect the way you think about listening to God?
What would you add? What would you subtract? What story would you tell about listening to God?
Wheat & Tares 
I don’t know if Joseph taught this but we hear it a lot in the Church today: If someone isn’t hearing from God or getting an answer it means there is something wrong in their own life. I think this is circular reasoning, a cop-out, and terribly unhelpful. It’s very discouraging. No one is perfect, and what am I doing wrong that Joseph and others weren’t? Why can’t I get these answers despite a lifetime of trying? Why isn’t there a correlating improvement in revelation with an improvement in obedience? Statements like “God’s guidance is as freely available as the air we breathe” just make me SOOOOOOO frustrated.
The thing about this essay is that it has some of the same “gotcha” traps that comparable LDS teachings have. BiV has already mentioned them.
..Clearly, BiV, Joseph (and others) were more righteous than you or me…
In other words, if it doesn’t work for you, then you’re not being honest, consistent, or sincere. You think you’re being honest? Well, you just aren’t. Because if you were, you’d have an answer (that would agree with mine, of course.)
I disagree with you Andrew S and BiV. I don’t see a call to be more aware, more humble, more open as hurtful. The writers of the original essay are writing their experience.
I do agree that glib “Sunday School” recitals of “how tos” can seem hurtful, especially if those ignore that we have different gifts, and different seasons in our lives.
But the fundamental concept behind AA is that someone was humble enough to seek recovery by learning from the example of someone else who had gone there before him.
Similarly in the gospel, if we have a loving teacher (may be a friend, a parent, a leader, or even a stranger, I suppose) who can gently show the way (not just tell the way), then perhaps we can learn if we also approach that learning with humility, love and desire.
The AA authors do not place a time limit.
Perhaps it is more nuanced… if you don’t get an answer it may indeed be due to something about yourself AND/OR it could also be due to other things. Blaming the person for not getting an answer, while serving the blamer (and I think this is a selfish stance) to justify their own logic of how their faith works, is not helpful. I get why we do that though, it is more unsettling to allow for the idea that maybe, sometimes –often even– people do NOT get answers despite their best efforts. That is a stance that is more difficult to tolerate as a believer, but it can also really soften you unless it leads you to the conclusion that there is no one on the other side of the line.
re 3:
Paul,
I don’t have a problem with a call to be more aware, more humble, or more open.
But the idea that everyone will receive an answer and if you do not, then that means you are unaware/aloof/prideful/closed is emotionally destructive. One size does NOT fit all, as much as one would like to believe with their spiritual help guide.
You put it well: The writers of the original essay are writing their experience.
Their experience.
Not everyone’s experience in the world.
And yet, these writers say:
Hence, if it doesn’t work, then the only explanation is you’re not sincere, consistent, honest, etc., Actually…there is another explanation:
This is the second “gotcha,” even in the church. You’ve got to “endure to the end,” you’ll only receive at the “end of your trial,” etc., So, if you don’t get an answer, you’re either A) insincere, dishonest, closed, etc., or B) you haven’t done it long enough.
Andrew – that is why I have to allow for the apparent fact that some people just won’t have the same experience, no matter what they do, and therefore I refuse to judge them… even allowing for the idea that maybe God is intentional in not giving someone an answer, that maybe that person has work and growth to do outside of the faith, for example.
Andrew S, Fair point. I agree with SW that I can’t judge another who is not where I am (anymore than I think he or she should judge me).
But the AA founders don’t give a time limit because the experience of those seeking recovery is you don’t find it until you’re ready. It cannot be given to you.
I think testimony is similar — I can’t give you mine and you can’t give me yours.
But I operate from a position where I’ve felt that I have received some answers so it gives me hope when I seek for others (and a willingness to wait). I can understand that someone who feels he’s received no answers (or even negative answers) would behave differently than I would.
I am a believer that we all have different gifts and many of us come to understanding and knowledge (about spiritual things) differently. So I acknowledge that one size does not fit all.
For the most part I agree with the points of the post.
I particularly like the following points:
1. God will tell you all that you need to know.
2. He will not always tell you all that you want to know.
There are too many church members who testify of their inability to obtain answers to prayer to just ignore what their saying. And the inverse is also true, there are too many church members who do obtain answers to prayer to ignore what their saying. So how do we, as believers, resolve this confusion?
In my opinion, there isn’t an easy answer. But we do have the scriptures and can find some partial answers–hints. From there we can use our power of reasoning.
My experience has been that many of my prayers have been answered and many have yet to be answered. However, for me, when I pray and don’t obtain an answer, that is the answer.
In these cases, the Lord is telling me something. It could be that I need to do more on my part; I need to wait on the Lord; it’s up to you; or no answer is coming.
In recent years, I have been experimenting with prayer trying to better understand what I should and shouldn’t pray for. So far, I am struggling to find what I shouldn’t pray about.
Here is an example, I purchased ornamental light fixtures for the front of my home. I had them installed. Before long one of the light bulbs burned out. When I took out the bulb I noticed it turned in a way that caused me to put olive oil on the replacement bulb so that it would go in easier.
I’ve never done this before. Months later, when the light bulb burned out I couldn’t remove it. I kept trying and the glass broke. I tried removing it by inserting a tool in the metal part that remained. When I twisted the bulb didn’t move but the entire fixture did. Nothing I did worked.
As I thought about it I wondered if it would be appropriate to pray about it. I knelt down by my bed and asked Heavenly Father to teach me more about prayer and also help me figure out what to do with the broken bulb.
It was time for the evening news and I sat down to see what was going on in the world.
Suddenly, I saw very clearly how to solve the problem. It came as a moving picture to my mind. It came very fast.
I went to my tool box and took out a wedge screw driver, inserted it between the metal portion of the broken bulb and the the metal portion of the light fixture, just as I saw in my minds-eye. The metal portion of the light bulb is made of a softer metal than that of the light fixture (I didn’t know that).
As I saw in my minds eye, I was able to bend the metal of the bulb inward as I moved around the light fixture and within a 30 seconds the broken bulb fell into my hand, just as I saw in my minds eye.
There was no damage to the light fixture. Also, never use olive oil as a lubricant on a light bulb, however it does work well as a glue.
Now I’m sure some who read this will want to make a determination whether I received an answer to prayer or if it was just the workings of my mind. I’m not 100% certain, as I am about other answers to prayer I’ve received. But I’ve never had something come to my mind with the speed an clarity as this did. Do I think it was an answer to prayer, yes?
As a side thought, with some prayers, when I’ve needed answers on major events I have often received two witness (a second witness) so I didn’t wonder about the source of the answer. Of course, then there are answers that come so powerfully that there is no questions whatsoever about the source.
re 8
Jared,
I liked that comment. I’m particularly glad that you’re recognizing and trying to grapple with the experiences of those who testify of their inability to obtain answers to their prayers.
I’m not going to “make a determination whether you received an answer to prayer or if it was just the workings of your mind,” because I’m of the opinion that what matters most is that you were able to fix the issue and I’m glad for that…but I wanted to ask:
Couldn’t you simply select occasions like this as answers to prayers, and then ignore other occasions where such insights and inspirations weren’t forthcoming (whether you simply ignore them completely or reason that no answer was the answer)?
Secondly, when you receive answers to light bulb dilemmas, do you ever think about those who do not receive answers to other, perhaps more grave matters?
#9 Hi Andrew–
You asked, two excellent question to ponder and discuss.
A few background thoughts to start. Based on my understanding, the Lord doesn’t make it easy to obtain answers to prayer, at least, many or even most prayers.
If He did otherwise, then the purposes of this life would be compromised. However, as a follower of Christ evolves it gets easier to obtain and recognize answers. Answers come in many ways.
You asked: Couldn’t you simply select occasions like this as answers to prayers…
If I understand your question correctly you are saying that people of faith can mistake the workings of their mind as answers to prayer.
I think this happens often and is a source of problems for those who are trying to grow in faith. With that said, the closer a person comes to the Lord the better they are able to discern the workings of the Spirit. It is like many other things in life, it takes time and experience to achieve excellence.
In my experience, the major answers I’ve obtained from the Lord have come in ways that are unmistakable. For example, ministering of angels. On several occasions the Lord has answered my prayers this way, some people see the angel, in my case, I heard them.
These experiences are very sacred and most people won’t talk about them. I’ve asked the Lord to allow me to be a witness of these things and that is why I am willing to tell you and others about my experiences.
Your second question: when you receive answers to light bulb dilemmas, do you ever think about those who do not receive answers to other, perhaps more grave matters?
This is a tough question. At this point in my experience with the Lord I feel He will often answer prayers for those things that are seeming inconsequential and at other times leave us to work through the really tough issues with His hand less visible. Why? To bring to pass our immortality and eternal life.
I’ve really gotten bent out of shape on more than one occasion when those things that were of great consequence were not forth coming and things of lesser importance were answered.
I’ve learned not to counsel the Lord.
re 10:
Jared,
Nope. That’s not the question at all, I’m afraid.
The question is something more like, when you point out instances where you’ve received answers to your prayers, do you reflect or recognize the instances where you have not? Have you ever, perhaps, done a compare/contrast? Would you even be equipped to do so?
I guess I would just be interested…when someone says, “The Lord answers prayers,” to hear some qualifying information. “OK, so the Lord has answered prayers for me x% of the time.” It doesn’t have to be a precise figure.
Second answer: fair enough.
As I recall you’re studying accounting, is that correct?
I haven’t done with answers to prayers what accountant’s do with inventory. But I do keep a journal, and I’ve counted over a hundred instance where I’ve written about sacred experiences. The ones I recorded are those that are note worthy. There are many others that I haven’t recorded.
In my opinion, the Lord is very close to those who love Him. He has said:
5 For thus saith the Lord—I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:5)
I’m sharing these things to draw attention to the Lord. I hope that you and any others who read what I’ve written, especially those who are struggling with faith and/or testimony, will be encouraged to seek/return to the Lord.
In my opinion, in the not too distance future, difficulties of Biblical proportions are going to come on the world. Many who have drifted away from the Lord will be compelled to call upon Him in that day. Speaking of this the Lord said:
7 They were slow to hearken unto the voice of the Lord their God; therefore, the Lord their God is slow to hearken unto their prayers, to answer them in the day of their trouble.
8 In the day of their peace they esteemed lightly my counsel; but, in the day of their trouble, of necessity they feel after me.
9 Verily I say unto you, notwithstanding their sins, my bowels are filled with compassion towards them. I will not utterly cast them off; and in the day of wrath I will remember mercy.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 101:7 – 9)
A huge part of twelve step programs is the shared experience that unflinching honesty brings success and that most people have to overcome a lack of honesty, somewhere, on their way to being able to connect to God.
I had not thought of that as an insult to anyone. Interesting perspective.
re 12,
Jared,
You’re correct that I’m studying accounting, but I’m not really trying to get at things from an accounting standpoint.
Nevertheless, I will try once again…
You mention that you keep a journal, and you can estimate how many times you’ve written about sacred experiences. But do you write about the times when you haven’t had sacred experiences? When you’ve prayed, but nothing was forthcoming?
It seems to me that you can talk all about the experiences you’ve had, but you don’t talk about the context — e.g., all the times when there wasn’t an answer, when you didn’t get an answer, or when the answer you thought you got ended up causing some problems.
re 13,
Stephen,
As mentioned before, there are a few ways to approach this.
1) When someone doesn’t have success with the method, it’s easy to say, “Well, it’s because you’re not honest.” You can immediately and succinctly cast any problem with the method as user error or flaw. It’s insulting because its presumptuous and unempathetic.
2) The jarring part is that even if the person recognizes that they are not perfect, they have to also note that NO ONE is. So why is it that visibly flawed (and even dishonest) people can get answers. It doesn’t seem like “unflinching honesty brings success” when one can look around them and see honest people who receive nothing and dishonest people who seem to receive plenty.
Personally, I’m far more comfortable when people admit/believe that spiritual experiences/answers to prayers/grace/etc., are unwarranted gifts and YOU don’t do anything to “get them” than when people try to say that if you do x, y, z, then you’ll get these things. It just doesn’t seem to fit the data, imo.
Stephen,
This in an outstanding post.
#14 Andrew–
OK, I think I understand what you’re looking for.
My experience with unanswered prayers is simple to explain. Nothing happen in the way of receiving help. I went forward with my best judgment.
For example, in late 1970’s I was working in a family business. The economy was in bad shape. Business loans were around 20%, home mortgages were at 12-14%. Business wasn’t good and getting worse.
I decided to leave the family business to start another business.
I prayed, fasted, and did everything I could to get the new business going. After a few years I lost more money and time. I was embarrassed, heart sick, and wondered why the Lord wouldn’t answer my prayers. After all, we’re promised the Lord will bless us temporally if we follow Him (Mosiah 2:41).
The Lord answered many of my prayers in things of lesser importance, but temporally I wasn’t doing well. It was a difficult trial. Fortunately, the girl I married loved the Lord and weathered these difficult times.
I had to leave the second business. I moved into a third business and experienced the same thing. I barely earned enough to provide food and shelter. I had been married for five years, I was in my late 30’s.
While I struggled to make ends meet I kept my eye out for a better opportunity. I saw one, and decided to go after it. This was with a fortune 500 company. I had to jump through many hoops just to get interviewed. The recruiter and I hit it off. He wanted to hire me and kept me on his list for 5 months. We talked often. One day he told me that he couldn’t hire me any time soon because of hiring quotas. He told me to contact him in 4 or 5 months. Needless to say, I was very disappointed.
A few days later, I opened the Sunday paper to look for another opportunity. While studying the want ads I was visited with a marvelous Spiritual experience. I learned that I would be hired by the company I wanted to go with. Soon thereafter the recruiter called to tell me a window of opportunity had unexpectedly opened and I could be hired. I was, and it has been a great temporal blessing for my family.
Along the way I’ve learned to be careful with embracing the idea of “feeling good” about something. I think this is where some church members get into trouble. I felt good about each of the decisions I made about business. I thought the Lord was with me, maybe he was, but I didn’t have success.
I can’t speak for others, but for me “feeling good” about something isn’t the way the Lord has worked with me. My prayers haven’t been answered in that way.
re 16,
Jared,
But, can you contrast unanswered prayers to answered prayers?
Or, can you contrast spiritual experiences to false positives?
Perhaps. But, then again, I don’t think the Lord cares much about how deep your bank account is, or how much money you make, or how successful your business was or is. If the Lord loves us, then He loves us as much in our poverty and inability to provide for ourselves than he would in our largesse, no matter our worthiness. If He loves us, then his love is unconditional no matter how much some church members and leaders [Elder Nelson, for example] might try and dissuade us from believing it.
I’ve pimped this book before, but I’m of a firm mind that many people could gain from reading it [it’s an easy read, to boot]: He Loves Me! by Wayne Jacobsen. He’s one dude I’d absolutely LOVE to see in general conference.
It taught me to stop trying to earn God’s love, because it’s already there. It taught be about the tyranny of the favor line [i.e. if you do enough, then God loves you and you’re in his favor. Do any less, and you’re somehow not worthy, not honest, not sincere enough].
I honestly think that Mormon’s have a huge penchant for thinking that they can earn blessings, earn God’s love, earn grace and earn everything in between. We love the gospel of prosperity – thinking that our righteousness will earn us temporal blessings. Then, when we’re poor it must be a result of our wickedness. When we’re rich, it must be a sign of our righteousness. The reason why so much of our church leadership is of the affluent crowd? The belief in the gospel of prosperity.
We would do well to learn from this teaching:
Shorty
“He loves us, then his love is unconditional no matter how much some church members and leaders [Elder Nelson, for example]”
Elder Nelson’s talk is the best ever given on the subject. As he indicated, NOWHERE in the scriptures does it indicate God has unconditional love. That term is never used. At least not in the King James Version – it may be found in one of the numerous butchered versions of the Bible. If fact, as he indicated there are numerous references in the scriptures (KJV) pointing to the conditional nature of God’s love.
As he summarized “While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional” Simply a great article by a living Apostle.
There are only two things stopping nearly everyone getting the revelation they need; a hard heart and a stiff neck. They are unbelief and pride. When the scriptures say to repent and come unto Christ that is what they mean. When a person learns to do away with those nothing can stop them. Then faith unto salvation will come, and not before.
You don’t need to be at all quite to hear God. He will talk to you when He chooses and will talk right through anything going on in you or around you. The reason we don’t hear is because we have conditioned ourselves to ignore his voice. Learning to obey that voice is the only way to come unto Christ. In fact, that is what it means.
The idea that your sins stop God from speaking to you is abhorrent. The only sin that could stop God speaking to you is hardening your heart against him. Repent of it. Show him you will believe him and you will get more than you sought. If you’ll believe him over anything he can begin to teach you the mysteries you must know to be saved.
Stop following the philosophies of man, they are your flaxen cords.
I once interrupted an address by a visiting 70 when he attempted to teach a group of missionaries that:
means that there will be some people that they’ll meet out there in the mission field that God simply doesn’t love.
This 70 no doubt received his theological worldview from the same places as Will [#19] here.
The meeting was somewhat informal so I felt no apprehension in standing and raising my hand to explain that:
means that His love is unconditional. How else could God love you first — unless His love was not based on what you did to “earn” it?
I’ll admit that covenants have conditions upon which you receive them — but that is an entirely different matter altogether.
Will, I’m curious — do you honestly think that b/c of all the “righteous” things you do at/for the Church(TM) and all the “true doctrine” you comment about here that God actually loves you more?
Do you actually think that doing anything differently would lead Him to love you less?
#17 Andrew–
My experience with prayer has been wondrous and sublime. I do write in my journal about unanswered prayers, as I do about answered prayers. I have never received an answer to prayer that has caused me a problem because I was mistaken or mislead.
I agree with Chienvoxx #20 and Justin #21.
I certainly don’t have all the answers, but the channels of communication are open for me. I invite all to believe in Christ and to believe in the calling of Joseph Smith as the prophet of the restoration.
I feel a deep sense of sorrow for those who focus their attention on the “mist of darkness” instead of “iron rod”. The iron rod (word of God) will lead us to the Holy Ghost, who then will lead us to Christ.
Justin,
If God’s love is unconditional as you insinuate, I would ask the following:
If he loves you unconditionally then would he not have only one kingdom?
If he loves Satan and the third that followed him unconditionally, then why would he ban them from his presence forever? It seems an odd way to show your love.
If his love is unconditional, then why have so many conditions for: membership; Temple attendance; priesthood advancement; sacrament participation and so forth?
He is a conditional being with a conditional church and conditions for becoming like him.
If he loves you unconditionally then would he not have only one kingdom?
Because placement in one particular kingdom as opposed to another is not based on how much God loves the person.
If he loves Satan and the third that followed him unconditionally, then why would he ban them from his presence forever?
Because they weren’t “banned”. His kingdom is without compulsory means. That means that if someone leaves, it is b/c they chose to. If someone resides there, it is b/c they chose to.
It seems an odd way to show your love.
Eternal residences are not a measure of God’s love for people — rather they are a measure of the person’s love for God.
If his love is unconditional, then why have so many conditions for…?
Because there are plenty of people who simply love setting stakes, boundaries, and conditions for the sake of control.
Also, Will — you never answered:
Do you honestly think that b/c of all the “righteous” things you do at/for the sake of the Church(TM) and all the “true doctrine” you comment about here that God actually loves you more?
Do you actually think that doing anything differently would lead Him to love you less?
Will, I think you need to re-read Elder Nelson’s article. Love does not equal blessings. Elder Nelson writes:
“Does this mean the Lord does not love the sinner? Of course not. Divine love is infinite and universal. The Savior loves both saints and sinners. The Apostle John affirmed, “We love him, because he first loved us.””
Although Elder Nelson eschews use of the phrase “unconditional love” he makes clear that God loves all His children: “We know the expansiveness of the Redeemer’s love because He died that all who die might live again.”
As for your questions, I think Justin is spot on, except perhaps for the last one. Your last question asks about conditions to participate in ordinances. I do not understand your question as it relates to God’s love. Precisely because God loves you, he invites you to prepare to receive ordinances because those ordinances are where the power of God is made manifest unto men in the flesh. The conditions for receiving those ordinances are all the same: Love God, sustain his anointed, keep His commandments.
Will:
You should examine Nelson’s talk more closely. That talk conflates the issue of blessings and love. God’s love is unconditional and nothing you can do will make him love you more or less (or me or anyone else). God’s love, as Justin points out, is something entirely different from “blessings” that he doles out as he sees fit. Nelson’s talk does a huge disservice to the atonement, to God’s love, in that it produces a religion based on earning God’s favor and God’s love.
God’s love is not predicated on our obedience. Do we love our kids more when they’re more obedient?
But, to speak your own language, how about we quote from a few other people who entirely disagree with Nelson:
Maybe we should start a “March Madness” bracket and pit Maxwell’s quote about “unconditional love” with Nelson’s quote about “conditional love.” I’ll put my money and spiritual relationship with Christ on Maxwell’s any day of the week.
Paul,
In my initial comment [#21]:
My answer in #24 was directed towards those who might assume:
Conditions to receive an ordinance = Conditions for God to love me.
or, as is more commonly the case:
Conditions to be considered a “worthy”, “mainstream” LDS = Conditions for God to love me.
Both of those — but especially the latter — originate with people who love setting stakes, boundaries, and conditions for the sake of control.
Justin,
Interesting…
“Because placement in one particular kingdom as opposed to another is not based on how much God loves the person.”
Agree. Then the only logical conclusion is that one is placed in a kingdom based on merit, or conditions; thus, a conditional being.
“If someone resides there, it is b/c they chose to.”
This response would imply that once assigned to a kingdom, they can then choose NOT to be there. My understanding is that a final resting place is a final resting place. And God, who is all knowing and powerful, chooses not to reassign them regardless of their preference.
This would contradict your first response, which is accurate. The placement into a kingdom is based on merit (D&C 88:22-26) and if one cannot live the telestial law, then they receive no glory (extremely conditional).
The bottom line, those who cannot abide the celestial law would not be comfortable in God’s presence and he would not be comfortable in their presence. It would be offensive to him as he cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance (D&C 1:31). Put another way, he cannot tolerate those that cannot abide the celestial law.
“Eternal residences are not a measure of God’s love for people — rather they are a measure of the person’s love for God.”
That is an excellent response and is consistent with your first response – an eternal class structure based on merit – Gods and Devils and everything in between.
“Because there are plenty of people who simply love setting stakes, boundaries, and conditions for the sake of control.”
Is it control or rewarding merit?
Shorty has accurately captured the paradox in Elder Nelson’s comments (including Shorty’s quotations of other church leaders and church leaders that seem to contradict Elder Nelson’s assertion).
Even Elder Nelson himself allows for Divine Love to be universal, infinite, and applying to all His children.
So there are two possibilities (perhaps more) to explain Elder Nelson’s assertion. One is that the he erroneously conflates love and blessings as Shorty suggests.
Another is that he specifically wanted to combat the popular notion of unconditional love today which seems to suggest that God, teachers, parents, and others should love everyone without qualification, and reward all equally. It is the notion of rewarding all equally that Elder Nelson seems to object to.
And Justin correctly pointed out that we choose our rewards by demonstrating our love to God.
(Justin #28, my question in 26 was really for Will, not for you. I see where you are coming from.)
Sorry — “church leaders and church literature…” in the first paragraph…
Will:
I find it prudent to only respond to this part by pointing out that:
Love =/= Merit
Not only do we, within organizational religious structures, set up limits for others and what they can do — but in our personal lives we also limit ourselves in what we think God can do, or what God has already done or is doing for us.
This is no distant God who sent His Son with a list of rules to follow or rituals to practice [conditions to be met]. His mission was to invite us into His love. But often we are so quickly captured by a fear-based “conditions” for defining and drawing lines around things that the guilt, conformity, and coercion that those “conditions” engender devour the very love it was seeking to transmit.
You see, it is much easier to elaborate lengthy, detailed ethical and legal conditions than it is to turn yourselves over to God’s love. The advantage of a legal code is that it can be fulfilled.
Any ethical component is only a consequence of a relationship with God – it is not the basis for one.
Jesus enters human history to say:
The negative commands in the gospel are consequences of a person accepting the love of God — not the conditions imposed on us for earning it.
Now I have two questions:
(1) Do you honestly think that b/c of all the “righteous” things you do at/for the sake of the Church(TM) and all the “true doctrine” you comment about here that God actually loves you more? and Do you actually think that doing anything differently would lead Him to love you less?
(2) Do you think that love for a person implies that you can lay claim on them for certain behaviors? Meaning — does love imply the lover has [at least] a bit of ownership over the loved and his/her behavior?
Paul #30 — I see.
Paul,
“It is the notion of rewarding all equally that Elder Nelson seems to object to.”
Exactly.
I have never said not does not have love for his children, it is just not correctly classified as unconditional love.
Correction. I have never said GOD does not….
I’ve dealt with a lot of people in 12 step programs, and in that very narrow spot of the world, the data seems to really fit.
You may well be right that it does not extend outside of that realm.
Jared, I really enjoyed your personal story. I have had similar things happen. Stephen.
Stephen–
😀
Will:
So you don’t feel that God’s love can be classified as unconditional. Can I take it then to mean that you specifically disagree with what Maxwell said?
Paul:
I personally think that Nelson was trying to:
However, I believe the manner in which he did so in “Divine Love” has created many more problems than it even attempted to solve in the first place, namely that many members now use Nelson’s talk to further propagate the idea that God’s love is conditional. Just because the word “unconditional” doesn’t appear in the KJV, or BoM, or D&C or wherever doesn’t take away from his “infinite” love for all of us. Nelson went out of his way – my opinion – to conflate the issue of obedience and love (i.e. since obedience to certain laws results in certain blessings, more obedience and more blessings means more love).
Will isn’t the first one to fall for Nelson’s reasoning – as I’ve seen it discussed in EQ in depth at least once and seen most of the class nod in agreement at the thought of God’s love being conditional based on our obedience. Not so coincidentally, that added fire to many exmo’s and non-members who were [and probably still are] understandably aghast at what Nelson stated.
Then again, maybe the time lapse between Maxwell and Nelson represents a shift away from “unconditional love” and towards “conditional love.”
Love and “rewards” are entirely different things. First of all though, we’d have to consider/define what love even means, and what it means for God to love someone. In human terms, one major aspect of love for me is an emotional bond – an attachment. It’s a survival code wired into us to connect with key others in our lives. We all have a need for it. From that view, of COURSE God loves everyone, regardless of their actions. He is not capable of NOT loving someone, or else he’d probably “cease to be God.”
BTW, the original post I had planned for this I put up at http://ethesis.blogspot.com/2011/03/refusing-to-be-bound.html
I’m reprising this topic from another angle tomorrow morning.